Can we just remove invulnerability from down in WvW / (PVP Game modes)?

[kash.9213]

43 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

So you think it’s essentially fair that when someone messed up and basically would be dead, they be given a 2nd chance to the team that already has more players? You’re assuming differences in skill level here… 

Not everyone who goes down messed up. The team with fewer players gets to use every mechanic as well as the larger team. If there were no rally and no full death revives that wouldn't be an issue, but there would still be a fun and engaging mechanic that promotes team play over that larger group you're suddenly so concerned about flash nuking everything and leaving no chance to counter. 

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

3 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I still find it funny when a popular genre like battle royales all pretty much copied gw2 with down state, but then you get people coming in here 9 years later asking for it to be removed, and if they can't get that, then they request every other part of it be removed. To suit them never mind how the game was designed from it's core. lol

 

 

 

I still find it funny people use BR DS as an excuse for GW2 DS and still don't understand that what we are asking for here is exactly how DS is implemented in BR games. What you don't get is that we will be 100% behind a change to make GW2 DS like PUBG, fortnite, Apex etc etc.

 

Why? Because in those games DS adds nothing to the fight. They have no invulnerable frames when going into DS, "flushing" is even a term often used in these BR games for people who just empty the mag to full kill someone. However in these BRs, DS has no dmg ability, no CC ability and no porting or mobility outside of a slow crawl that is locked in place if someone uses a finishing skill in the case of Apex. in other words, yes, BR games have downstate and they implemented it the exact way we are asking for it to be in GW2.

 

Not only is DS in these BRs far, FAR weaker than in comparison to GW2, but death is also far more punishing, GW2 you can respawn instantly with no real penalty, PUBG had no reviving, and fortnite and Apex your team had to take on risk to get you back and even if they did, you came back with nothing.

 

So yes, please, PLEASE use BRs as a comparison to GW2 for what needs to be done with DS.

 

 

[Chaba.5410]

Guys, please stay on topic.  This thread isn't about removing downstate.  It's about removing the 2 second invulnerability that occurs when someone goes into downstate.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, gebrechen.5643 said:

 

That's not criticism here. Remove downstate isn't critism, it's not even close to constructive.

This thread isn't about removing downstate.  Please.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I still find it funny when a popular genre like battle royales all pretty much copied gw2 with down state, but then you get people coming in here 9 years later asking for it to be removed, and if they can't get that, then they request every other part of it be removed. To suit them never mind how the game was designed from it's core. lol

 

 

Which games?  I know Fortnite has an automatic invulnerability, but Apex Legends requires one to have found a shield item.  Rust (not battle royale) has a downstate but it also doesn't have invulnerability and it's still one of the top games on Steam.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[bigo.9037]

2 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I love the premise of  "If we remove downstate we can do these balance changes". You might as well ask about alliances. 

No DS Is still better than DS. You messed up, you should die and respawn. I can’t believe how difficult it is to understand that you’re getting carried by this gimmick mechanic.

[bigo.9037]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Not everyone who goes down messed up. The team with fewer players gets to use every mechanic as well as the larger team. If there were no rally and no full death revives that wouldn't be an issue, but there would still be a fun and engaging mechanic that promotes team play over that larger group you're suddenly so concerned about flash nuking everything and leaving no chance to counter. 

How hard is it to understand and get through to you? Your made up scenarios are assuming one team has better players and that they can outplay enemy to such an extent that they revive their teammates, without the other team doing the exact same thing??? Support is about keeping allies alive, not artificially reviving them with a single button press. There’s not a lot of team coordination that goes into pressing F for a second or two.. other games with DS are way more balanced cus it’s actually a huge risk and not something you can just do in heat of battle like you can in gw2. It’s a literal gimmick that carries bad team with more numbers much more than it adds any meaningful complexity.

[Zikory.6871]

8 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

No DS Is still better than DS. You messed up, you should die and respawn. I can’t believe how difficult it is to understand that you’re getting carried by this gimmick mechanic.

Sounds like you can't finish a fight with downstate so you call it a gimmick. Classic smh

[Zikory.6871]

5 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

 It’s a literal gimmick that carries bad team with more numbers much more than it adds any meaningful complexity.

It literally (from experience) allows the smaller groups to stay in fights longer by recovering players before they are full dead. What else you got?

[XenesisII.1540]

lmao nice attacks.

We can't get down state removed!

Let's just try and get pieces of it removed!

It worked for mass rally!

We'll get invul out!

Then we nerf rally up health!

Then we'll get rally out eventually too!

Then we'll get the down health nerfed!

Then we'll get the down skills nerfed!

Then we'll get finishers to auto proc!

Then we'll get them to stun lock the target 2s before going down and then into auto finisher!

Then we'll come back around and ask everyone if they want down state removed because it's useless at that point!

Where shall we draw the line?

 

Last week I died instantly to a zerg, I didn't even get the "2s of invulnerability", didn't even get to use my down skills, whether that was a bug or lag or whatever I have no clue. But I could care less if it's there or not, it's just there to help those being one shot down which happens in big groups mostly (guess who it benefits the most here, the smaller group that may not be running res skills unlike the bigger group).

 

I don't die that often, most times it doesn't help me/hamper me in roaming cause you know finishers, you know there's also finishers you can use right? Oh wait I'm guessing the spammers just want it out so their little 6 person solo roaming can finish one roamer quickly and move on. 🙄 Roaming with pugs, I might get a res after the 2s anyways if at all, roaming with a zerg I if I go down I'm more than likely not getting a res either, so either way I don't care if this stays in or not.

 

The people complaining are probably using high burst glass builds and they want to kill with no risk, if you can't figure out after 9 years not to spam damage dump on someone that just went down I don't know what to tell you. Bit by bit people want to destroy the tactical parts of combat and just make it a spammy fps clone.

 

But yeah let's keep calling for nerfs for after someone is down, not the hot garbage mess of boon balling that makes it difficult to get a down in the first place.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm putting Chen on my ignore list, and heading over to the fortnite forums to complain about the building mechanics, I don't like it, they should take it out!

[MedievalThings.5417]

What I find interesting is, unless it is a 1v1 or 1v3, I never see the invulnerability anyway.  When I die, it's downed, and in the same .1 second dead.  I have even noticed stomping other players that a certain elite skill will skip the invulnability to, and just kill you.

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Wait, what? If you are a thief you have to literally go out of your way not to take any stealth, so I'd say 'similar investments' is objectively false.  

 

Stealth stomping shouldn't even be a thing, because it defeats the purpose of downstate altogether.  If you go down and someone stealths, there is no way to reveal them so you might as well remove the downstate portion.  With stability or other 'safe' stomping you can see the person so anyone coming by can interrupt / strip / etc. to prevent the stomp.  

 

Also, the fact that instant teleports don't interrupt any channel is proof of how laughably balanced they are.  This goes for any class with a teleport in WvW, it's just too much mobility for no investment.  Safe mobility too as you can't interrupt instant teleports, so again no counterplay.  

 

So in short, stealth port stomping is about the stupidest mechanic they have going right now, and this is in a gamemode where they thought adding more superspeed was a good idea.  

 

Thief is not the only class that might attempt to stealth stomp and other classes tend to invest more and even fro thief stealth isn't actually free. There are also classes that fart stab like it is nothing, so that's not a big investment for them. Stealth stomping also has plenty of counterplay, because a stealthed target does not become cc immune. Aoe reveals are a thing too for some classes. The downed body can also get stealthed or moved (by necro) and ressing takes less time than stomping anyway. It is already much more difficult to finish off a target that has allies arround than fo them to pick it up, even with various means of (more or less) safe stomping, so that's pretty much the last thing that needs any nerfing.

 

I also don't think ports as a whole are an issue. They are strong, especially the instant ones, but as long they don't become too spammable, not a big deal.

 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

It literally (from experience) allows the smaller groups to stay in fights longer by recovering players before they are full dead. What else you got?

You know what allows smaller grps to stay in fights even longer? Not having to deal with downed bodies of their opponents. Most of the time if someone goes down while outnumbered, it's gg, there is usually very little chance to recover.

Downstate favours superior numbers. That's a fact. Anyone who fights outnumbered on a regular basis will confirm this (and with outnumbered i mean significant differences in numbers, like double and more, not something insignificant like 45vs50). No downstate event also shows this very clearly as normally unwinable fights suddenly become winable.

Edited June 25, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zikory.6871]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

You know what allows smaller grps to stay in fights even longer? Not having to deal with downed bodies of their opponents. Most of the time if someone goes down while outnumbered, it's gg, there is usually very little chance to recover.

Downstate favours superior numbers. That's a fact. Anyone who fights outnumbered on a regular basis will confirm this (and with outnumbered i mean significant differences in numbers, like double and more, not something insignificant like 45vs50). No downstate event also shows this very clearly as normally unwinable fights suddenly become winable.

What 25 v 50? 

 

No downstate. 25 kill 5-10 of the 50. Still 25 v 40. Say the 50 kill 5-10 of the 25. Oof 15 v 50. Say you trade kills 15 v 40. How does this favor the smaller group? 

 

I might a agree that no downstate would favor the a smaller group in havoc situations but it just doesn't scale with the larger squads. So permanent no downstate isn't a realistic request. Should just aim for the event to be more frequent. Like every first week of relinks. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[lodjur.1284]

6 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

What 25 v 50? 

 

No downstate. 25 kill 5-10 of the 50. Still 25 v 40. Say the 50 kill 5-10 of the 25. Oof 15 v 50. Say you trade kills 15 v 40. How does this favor the smaller group? 

If you're trading kills while outnumbered you should be losing. 

6 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I might a agree that no downstate would favor the a smaller group in havoc situations but it just doesn't scale with the larger squads. So permanent no downstate isn't a realistic request. Should just aim for the event to be more frequent. Like every first week of relinks. 

While no downstate permanently might be unrealistic, big nerfs to downstate isn't. 

 

8 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

You know what allows smaller grps to stay in fights even longer? Not having to deal with downed bodies of their opponents. Most of the time if someone goes down while outnumbered, it's gg, there is usually very little chance to recover.

Exactly

 

When outnumbered many people deal more damage  in their downstate than before and certain classes (elementalist being the worst offender) become pointless to focus due to busted downstate 

8 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Downstate favours superior numbers. That's a fact. Anyone who fights outnumbered on a regular basis will confirm this (and with outnumbered i mean significant differences in numbers, like double and more, not something insignificant like 45vs50). No downstate event also shows this very clearly as normally unwinable fights suddenly become winable.

Can confirm

[bigo.9037]

12 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Sounds like you can't finish a fight with downstate so you call it a gimmick. Classic smh

Have you played literally ANY OTHER mmorpg, or any MMO? DS in gw2 is a gimmick. 
 

I’ve played since 2013 btw so I know how to deal with it, but that doesn’t change how stupid it is. You sure you’re not just getting carried by it?

[Shroud.2307]

Agree, although in large scale fights it basically deletes downed state, which is something people should at least consider when discussing this.

Also as for nerfing downed state, IMO it should be changed as such-

* ICD on revive attempts. You try to revive someone who's downed, you get one chance to do it then you have to wait on a timer. They could be killed during that time meaning your revive attempt better be worth it.

* Every class gets one AOE/PBAoE (Ranger's Thunderclap is PBAoE) CC downed skill and that's it. None of this multi-CC while downed nonsense, or some classes having ones that require a target.

* Remove downed state revival skills from WvW entirely. Anything that previously revived players now only stomps. Warrior Banner and Scrapper Gyro would be the only multi-target stomps while everything else would be single target.

* 3 times downed in 5 minutes = dead.

[bigo.9037]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Agree, although in large scale fights it basically deletes downed state, which is something people should at least consider when discussing this.

Also as for nerfing downed state, IMO it should be changed as such-

* ICD on revive attempts. You try to revive someone who's downed, you get one chance to do it then you have to wait on a timer. They could be killed during that time meaning your revive attempt better be worth it.

* Every class gets one AOE/PBAoE (Ranger's Thunderclap is PBAoE) CC downed skill and that's it. None of this multi-CC while downed nonsense, or some classes having ones that require a target.

* Remove downed state revival skills from WvW entirely. Anything that previously revived players now only stomps. Warrior Banner and Scrapper Gyro would be the only multi-target stomps while everything else would be single target.

* 3 times downed in 5 minutes = dead.

This is a great idea.

[Zikory.6871]

4 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Have you played literally ANY OTHER mmorpg, or any MMO? DS in gw2 is a gimmick. 
 

I’ve played since 2013 btw so I know how to deal with it, but that doesn’t change how stupid it is. You sure you’re not just getting carried by it?

Name another comparable mmo with large scale pvp and why arent you playing it? 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[bigo.9037]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Name another comparable mmo with large scale pvp and why arent you playing it? 

I STG the devs are gonna end up giving me another warning cus I gotta deal with these kinds of arguments. 
 

I don’t care about large scale, so I’m just gonna list a few mmorpgs I’ve played in the past and know. 
 

WoW, Tera, FW, PW. None of these games have DS and 2 of them were pretty popular. 
 

But here’s the thing… I don’t play these games simply because they lack 1 bad mechanic that gw2 has. Gw2 is more than that. 
 

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you, simply incredible. 
 

Why do you insist on changing nothing? Next time you complain about anything at all, should I just tell you to play something else???? 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Funny, there were so many times I've died before I even saw my downed skills on screen... And no, it wasn't "you have been downed x times already" or "teef dd used elite to do it", that wasn't the case in the slightest in those situations.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

* Remove downed state revival skills from WvW entirely. Anything that previously revived players now only stomps. Warrior Banner and Scrapper Gyro would be the only multi-target stomps while everything else would be single target.

 

This isn't biased at all...

[Zikory.6871]

23 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

I STG the devs are gonna end up giving me another warning cus I gotta deal with these kinds of arguments. 
 

I don’t care about large scale, so I’m just gonna list a few mmorpgs I’ve played in the past and know. 
 

WoW, Tera, FW, PW. None of these games have DS and 2 of them were pretty popular. 
 

But here’s the thing… I don’t play these games simply because they lack 1 bad mechanic that gw2 has. Gw2 is more than that. 
 

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you, simply incredible. 
 

Why do you insist on changing nothing? Next time you complain about anything at all, should I just tell you to play something else???? 

I merely disagree with your reasons and have provided personal experiences to counter them. I even agreed that no downstate may be good for small scale fights but you refuse to look at the rest of the game mode in favor of your personal bias. I'm not against change at all but "I think its stupid" imo isn't a credible reason. Considering your passion for the subject, I hoped you have more then the basic responses that are regurgitated in every no downstate thread. 

I don't want you to get in forum trouble so. My memory is a little hazy, wasn't the invuln added to the game because larger groups could down and finish in one go while smaller groups generally didn't have enough damage to do the same? Wasn't it added specifically to help smaller groups?

[Shroud.2307]

5 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

This isn't biased at all...

I think Ele is the only other one with an AOE revive, right? I don't see how this is so. Put Ele in that list too, then.

Also in my defense, I typically play core Engi so, the Scrapper thing doesn't effect me much. Nor do I play support ever.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Every time there has been a no downstate week, I have either been on a break from the game or just haven't been motivated enough to play much of. This is the first I have actually played a lot of. I have really been loving it a lot. I am not anti-downstate by any means, but I absolutely do believe downstate is too forgiving in its current implementation. Some ideas on things that I would like to see change.

 

* All full rez skills (Banner, Glyph, Signet, etc.) are now unaffected by quickness.

* Downstate invuln period is either removed or reduced by 50%. 

* Downstate health pools are reduced by ~20%.

* Downstate skill damage is reduced to match up with the big balance patch of yesteryear.

* Downstate skills are reevaluated (like Ranger's "Lick Wounds" persisting after being CC'f)

* Cooldown recharge rate of a downed player is reduced by 33%.

* Only one rally allowed per minute (consecutive rezzing is still possible, just not back to back rallies).