Half monthly reminder how you ruined all fun in mesmer for me

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

1. Most build are locked in dueling traitline because of deceptive evasion for clone uptime.

 

so are several other classes.. Meta build sites have become so popular because the games ALways been super Restrictive in what achieves good results.

 

1 minute ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Clone is an issue when it comes to sPvP/WvW because of their low pool of hp they often not die before reaching your target.

 

So why have we got RIP Repeatively making accounts and Rinsing top level players with Mesmer so easily if they're so "easily" perma Destroyed.

 

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

One shot gimmick, unlike FA weavers or other one shot class that have a shorter wind up time, mesmers do not have that luxury.

 

Yeah. we're talking 1 build here. im sure everyt proffession has a "bad build" out there that also is terrible. again across the board all proffessions have this issue.

 

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Since the changes to torment dmg + resolution, condi mesmers have taken a hit.

 

i still personally drop players in 5 seconds with it.. and im not even good at Mesmer PvP

 

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

One dodge mirage need I say more?

 

hasnt held any of the current top level players back though?.. only a Echo screeching through the forums realistically. Yes Mirage has 1 Dodge. but No its not a problem realistically when we have So many evades through our skills and More + Accessibility to mirage mirrors and more.

 

Staff Mirage is still a Great bunker build realistically.

 

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Chronos lost their identity in terms of support provided other classes are able to give alacrity and quickness better then chrono when it was suppose to be a chrono thing.

 

Eh i can agree chronos orginal Design was torn apart. but lets not forget Chrono was Also Broken AF in its first iterations lmfao..

 

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Glamour is a long lost skill line that has no traits to back it up.

 

again every class Has Bad utility skills, i'd argue the Majority of utility skills in this game are terrible across the board theres a reason why every meta build uses the same Group of Utility skills.

 

5 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Mantra changes and bonuses lost.

 

Yeah even after this Mesmers were doing 50k DPS (sure nerfed now and rightfully so) but 50k DPS.

 

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Also the only reason why mesmer is in demand isn't because of mesmer as a whole its because of the dumb alacrity buff given to staff mirages. 

 

woah woah woah here mate. ur skipping several Things mesmers Do in PvE.

 

Tank Chrono is the absolute Meta choice.

Quickness Chrono is Also very usuable.

Alacrity / 25 might Alacrity mirage yes.

it also has Access to several DPS Builds of both condi and power enviroment.

 

8 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

This does not mean we are better then those classes it just means that the buff was a bad idea. 

 

but it actually Does.

 

Where Meta is concerned mesmers a Far wider pick then THese classes were. "Class A not performing in the role i want em to be" isnt a argument to call a Entire Proffession bad. It just means it isnt Balanced on what u want it to do and thats Simple.

 

The fact Chrono is the strongest tank avaliable Is Appealing to anyone who wants to raid Tank. it also its a Quick easy method into a Raid much quicker then for example a Weavers going to get to.

 

Im sorry but the fact

 

Weavers Do lower DPS then other options, With 0 CC and 0 Utility. means Weaver is Undeniably BAD.

 

The Fact tempest is Just outclassed by druids and Firebrands because it Brings "the highest healing" something really Not demanded by any content means Tempest is at the Lowest of the competition.

 

The Fact Power Daredevil is like 6k DPS Beneath other power Options. Means its again one the lowest options. and Lets not forget, its Condi build Also got torn to pieces.

 

when we talk Better in PvE we're talking about proffession to proffession COmparitively to which one fits the Meta better, U cant Just rule out all mesmers good builds and say "its bad at the one i wanna play" that doesnt make the ENTIRE proffession bad. Mesmer doesnt need to be the Meta In Every role to be "good". no Proffession is Definitively good in every role.

 

 

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

Remember when I posted a spoiler about certain members of this community defending and justifying this behavior? No one called you out. You just called yourself out. Repeatedly. Once more, and my apologies, but this isn’t the time nor place for your misspelled, lack of grammar and punctuated nonsense rants.

 

I aint defending. why? becaus eu havent put any attack against Mesmers to Defend against to begin with lol, your calling urself out for not being able to play Mesmer realistically here. Any proffession in a bad Players hands gonna Look bad. Well done.

5 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

 

The point of this thread is how certain players ruined the class for the OP in PvP. You are making his point for him. Now, if you want to discuss that elsewhere? Fine. But not with me. There’s no point because you don’t listen to opposing opinions.

 

Players Nerfed Staff mesmer?.. lol, Players are susposed to tolerate a Proffession being Wildly overpowered for the sake of someone.. i think maybe u Actually have the issue listening to opposing opinons, proclaiming Im proving ur point while continously proving mine.

 

U dont care about balance, providing it Swings your way. U dont want Speccs fixed. because as far as ur concerned ur Enjoyment Should become Before others. At the end of theday. Asking someone why they feel a 50k DPS Specc. is "Fine". is a perfectly fine statement to make here.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lighter.5631]

6 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

Remember when I posted a spoiler about certain members of this community defending and justifying this behavior? No one called you out. You just called yourself out. Repeatedly. Again, this isn’t the time nor place for your misspelled, lack of grammar and punctuated nonsense rants.

 

Please, find someone else to pester for attention.

 

The point is how certain players ruined the class for the OP in PvP. You are making his point for him. If you want to discuss that elsewhere? Fine. But not with me. There’s no point because you don’t listen to opposing opinions.

 

You only want to post your own agenda ad nauseam on these forums.

 

Thank you, but no thank you. We have nothing to discuss. And we never will.

obviously all he can do is repeat the same justification, because you are not coming up with anything to justify your own.

funny how you think there's nothing to discuss, when you literally got nothing on the table.

while he keep putting up valid justification.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

It's okay, both HoT and PoF elite specialization designs had ruined my fun, it's almost 6 years now and they're still not even near the "fixed" state. They've dumbed down gameplay so much that I was literally falling asleep from boredom, for very long time I was wondering about creating macros since the gameplay was dull and non-interactive in the slightest.
But here you are complaining about A-net giving small band-aids to the destruction they have brought with their PvE oriented e-speces powercreepiness.
Both Chronomancer and Mirage are failures from very design level, they could've been done much better without allowing cheese on the plate, but here we are with powercreeped mechanics that weren't fixed but nerfed instead by very small amount. That goes for every class in this game. :')

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

On 7/5/2021 at 11:33 AM, Crackmonster.2790 said:

This is the class i always wanted to play - yet you have continually butchered it. A handful of features ruin the class for me.

 

And I said in a spoiler,  "Incoming defense and justification for this behavior." And look. Here we are.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It's okay, both HoT and PoF elite specialization designs had ruined my fun, it's almost 6 years now and they're still not even near the "fixed" state. They've dumbed down gameplay so much that I was literally falling asleep from boredom

 

Chrono is still considered one of the hardest builds to play? Lol... I mean the fact.. Chronos Average DPS in Raids and Fractals is like 16k DPS while its Potiental is 40k kinda Speaks volumes here. you may fidn the game itself too easy at this point if ur honestly executing chronomancer at the very top potiental While asleep on a Keyboard.. but i can say for 99% of the players it defintly is not "Easy".

 

the issue is the boss mechanics are so outdated they dont require u to be good at your proffession anymore which is a Larger rpoblem.. the fact someone can do 24k DPS Less then they should be and Kill end level raids are the true issue.

 

power creep is the whole problem. ur right here, because Bosses needed to be kept updated aswell. its mental they decided to leave bosses build to fight core speccs werent touched upon Expansions giving every class 20x More tools.

 

7 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Both Chronomancer and Mirage are failures from very design level

 

i can agree on this

 

Chronomancer as a Concept was broken AF. and whoever decided to launch it as it was is Ridiculous. how someone thought it'd be a good idea to throw that much support and Game changing mechanics into a build with already 1 shot burst potiental and super high mobility with teleports and things was mental

 

and Mirage shoulda prolly been Reworked before it ever hit the table. its not balancable as it is.

 

both speccs were waaay to far out there in how far they were striking for.. and Anet should have Stuck with the simplicity of core Speccs all the way through instead of this continous overload of abilitys til one change Causes a Major balancing issue somewhere among the builds.

 

game got to overbloated

 

7 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

A-net giving small band-aids to the destruction they have brought with their PvE oriented e-speces powercreepiness.

 

agreed, they should have stuck to the building Speccs around PvP and then making PvE work around those builds, not the opposite.. PvE designed Speccs are just fundamentally always worse.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Moradorin.6217]

Daddy you really just need to read the mesmer forum all the arguments you are looking to make have been had 100 times over and anyone still posting in the Mesmer forum has either had those arguments so many times we are all done with even bothering to address your line of reasoning. You may be unaware but you lost this debate before you started. Again, its been covered. Read old posts. Im not going to splain it all. The rest of the people who still actually post in Mesmer forum either hate mesmer, are new to the game class, or stuborn people who will hang onto mesmer no matter how good or bad it gets.

 

Look at the number of active threads in the mesmer forum (not counting the latest EoD fantasy/dreamer posts. I mean actual posts of people talking about good, new builds and all the fun things they just love mesmer for, cause well its mostly a dead forum. Even after the latest alacmirage hype the Mesmer forum is still pretty kitten inactive. Its that way for a reason, and its not cause its so kittening awsome!

[Puck.3697]

47 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Daddy you really just need to read the mesmer forum all the arguments you are looking to make have been had 100 times over and anyone still posting in the Mesmer forum has either had those arguments so many times we are all done with even bothering to address your line of reasoning.

 

 

I garuntee atleast 99% of forum users Do not 99 percentile fights with their proffession, Do not have Optimal builds and Dont understand WHY those builds are optimal, Are not a World level competitor in SPVP, or apart of actual Structured WvWvW content.

 

yet u beleive ur so correct on balance, while R I P a Multi top 10 Account owner who plays Nothing but mirage has consistently won realistically.

 

Like just explain this one point to me.

 

Why. are there People performing to a high competitive level with this class against top level players. if its so bad. if im so wrong here. Please explain here.

 

If mesmers so bad, so overnerfed, so incapable. Explain it.

 

Like. ur all quick to "confuse" at stuff, and Deny things.. but no one can factually actually sit down and Discuss Why they beleive mesmers AS A PROFFESSION. not a Specific build, not Specific Traits, Not Specific utilitys.. COLLECTIVELY AS A PROFFESSION. is unable to access A Part of the content that currently is offered.

 

these arguments arent on forums.

 

.

 

because no one could answer these questions.. no ones even tried to explain this.. Please show me.. where someone explained why mesmers need to do 50k DPS to be "Viable".

 

Show me why R I Ps capability with this class Is IRRELEVANT to coversation on Mesmers potiental in SPVP Enviroments.

 

no I've read the mesmer forums. u just Echo the same Statement again and Again. with no evidence, no proof and Reasoning here if we were to for argument sake say sure.. what forums says is right.. we're basically saying

 

- every class is bad.

- every class is "Shafted"

- Anet hates every class.

 

which emans.. we're all bad I.E no one is bad. because everyones on their subforum screeching how bad their proffession is.

 

Heres the fact.. Actions are louder then words. U cannot excuse or make up reasoning to why RIP is top 10, u cannot excuse or make up reasoning to why mesmer is the 4th most popular proffession in the game and you cannot excuse why there are mesmers in almost every single raid team apart of meta builds. no one addresses this. no one considers this.

 

Like art the end of the day, if i cant do something with mesmer, its because im bad. not the proffession. there are hundreds who prove daily the proffession can do it. just because i cant do the same thing, Doesnt make it the proffessions fault..

 

when i 99 percentile a fight. and i do 8k Less Damage, while having Lower uptime on boons and Rejected from groups. thats when theres a problem effectively.. thats where balance is a problem. however statistics do not show that the majority of this game is in that position. .by a long stretch.

 

P.S theres a comment on this forum that legit says "who care if someones brokenly overpowered in PvE. it dont matter anyway". like litterally these are the comments u wanna refer to as Justifying the reason why staff shouldnt be Nerfed?.. i've read all the comments, not a single one actually goes into any depth to why its "bad" now..

 

the forums dying.. because a Small group of players Just screech Doom over the top of anything else or constructive, theres no point trying to talk to players who will ignore hard evidence to try get stating the same thing again and again.

47 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

You may be unaware but you lost this debate before you started. Again, its been covered. Read old posts. Im not going to splain it all. The rest of the people who still actually post in Mesmer forum either hate mesmer, are new to the game class, or stuborn people who will hang onto mesmer no matter how good or bad it gets.

 

oki 1 i didnt lose any debate. thats just factual. theres No "reasons covered" in the slightest. theres a echo chamber of continous Unconstructive critism put forward by players with 0 evidence proof or reason screeching the walls down over a Problem that doesnt exist.

 

Lemme correct you here.

 

People who still actually post in the mesmer forums are Players who are likely still below a 40 percentile parse in all content, Likely dont use optimal builds, Likely arent playing their proffession to remotely close to its potiental. or actually doing the content in most cases.

 

And theres the real problem.

 

heres the fact. ikf somethings hard to play. everyone can cant grasp it is gonna think its "underpowered". its just a Collection of exactly this making this echo chamber or Unproven "assumptions".

 

Like heres the fact theres 2 reasons for bad performance.

 

- the players Skill level is too low.

- the Proffessions ability is too low.

 

And heres another fact. no ones gonna blame Their own Skill level before blaming their proffession. so exactly how?..

 

FOR EXAMPLE:

 

if im bad at Mesmer, i use bad traits because i dont understand what they do and i die to mechanics because i dont know the mechanics and manage 6k DPS over the course of a Fight with 31 Deaths and a Incorrect rotation.

 

Am i a good source of Critic when it comes to the class?

 

NO I AM NOT.

 

R I P is where he is with mesmer. because its within mesmers ability to do that. not because he has something u dont. not because hes not "human" or a different species. because he learnt to play the proffession and not just screeched on a forum all day. all these top level players are the critic for classes. they are the evidence and they are what this game should be balanced around.

 

whil;e the Average Silver 40 percentile mesmer beleives the game should be balanced to allow him access to all content but what u dont aknowledge is the game willb e SOOOOO broken at high level play that its not "balance". u cant balance a proffession around some forum goer who spends 3/4s of a raid dead.

 

and thats the concept this forum struggles with. the reason people were ok with Staff mesmer doing 51k DPS Is because it was high enough to allow their 50 percentile DPS Parse be relevant. and thats not a voice to listen to.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

45 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Look at the number of active threads in the mesmer forum (not counting the latest EoD fantasy/dreamer posts. I mean actual posts of people talking about good, new builds and all the fun things they just love mesmer for, cause well its mostly a dead forum. Even after the latest alacmirage hype the Mesmer forum is still pretty kitten inactive. Its that way for a reason, and its not cause its so kittening awsome!

Hold on ... forum 'death', whatever that is ... has NOTHING to do with class performance in game. Yeah, it's like that for a reason ... but not because Mesmer is a 'bad' class. It's because people don't like changes that are bad for their class, REGARDLESS of what their class performance is so they complain about it.

 

Guess what ... Mesmers aren't unique in that regard. Everyone has taken hits over the last 9 years, result in 'dead' forums and lots of complaints. The perception you have that no one is doing 'fun' things with Mesmers because there isn't a flood of big smiley face threads on the forum doesn't make sense. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Daishi.6027]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

I don't rly get where u feel mesmers shafted. 

 

It's got 2 very strong builds in SPVP

It has a pretty decent WvWvW support chrono build. 

It has 3 main roles in a group + DPS builds throughout fractals and raids. 

 

We are in a 110% better position then both elementalist and thief. We have more wanted builds then ranger does. Like mesmers easily above the average on the totem pole by a mile. 

 

Yeah scourge and firebrand are better. But that's litterally the same about every build and proffession currently. 

 

And tbh guardians are worse in SPVP then mesmer. So we trade blows there. 

 

We are meta in almost every content of the game?. Like yes loss of 1 dodge isn't a nerf anyone wanted to see. But mesmer is litterally fine with it. I can still blow someone up in under 10 seconds. And I can use a staff build to bunker a point to the litteral end of the game. 

 

Idk about the others but I'm only saying shafted because of PvP. having slightly lower DPS in PvE content doesn't matter to me so long as it's viable.

sPvP has gimmick one shot build with a ranged weapon in point blank range with no real defensive option on the set, that is frankly easy to avoid and super easy to anticipate even from stealth. I've easily evaded streamers and pros alike trying to do it. It's really not that hard, and uses both it's engagement tools and it's disengagement tools; so you better not screw it up because you can't retry like a thief can. The other build is Condi Mirage which was a puzzle piece cut to fit into the meta, effectively killing off every other iteration of it's viability. Power Mirage is pretty garbage thanks to that and playing it is ultimately handicapping yourself from power mesmer since you lose a line and gain nothing of value, and even more of a handicap to levels of unviability compared to the entirety of thief's kit. Who: Evades more, stealths more, has better mobility, and can retry whiffed bursts. Mirage even BEFORE the nerf to Jaunt had slightly more evasion up time over thief- this was thoroughly tested around season 9-11ish, and that was was incorporating mirrors, but didn't incorporate thief access to blind. Which by the by, mirrors are the biggest "I'm going to evade" or "I'm going to have to go for this eventually or lose it." 'tell' in the game and it was all because some one drew something fancy and they insisted on making it a class feature. This isn't good design; Shafted.

-Evasion on demand is infinitely stronger than evasion uptime yet didn't matter Mirage has been severely gutted since then; even ranger has more on demand evasion and more on demand stealth. After the nerf to evade mirage now lacks even more behind the classes that typically have 2 evades+1 long sustain cooldown and maybe one medium length cooldown. (excluding single hit counters)
-Even with target drops clones only fool bads and people who can't read buffs above hot bar (even worse since after nerfs Signet of illusion became manditory) this is no replacement for stealth access.
-Illusions are both defensive resources that are also used offensively, that also die in AoE and after casting are manipulated by the opponent not the caster.
-The cast time on shatters is instant but have such a lengthy and avoidable travel time unless doing the whole "triangle" strategy; but that's still moot since again all the control is on the opposing player's end. This is vastly inferior to direct on demand damage.
-Cooldowns are lengthy and honestly anything other than phantasms or shatters do very little worth of damage all of which are comparatively disconnected from the button input to the attack.

There might be quirk here or there but these are standards no other class has to deal with in its entirety; Shafted.

Mirage didn't over perform, had very few top players taking up legendary slots, even less top players even playing it, it was a noob stomper; nothing more. Didn't matter: nerfed jaunt, nerfed several other defensive mechanics and traits, and then cut their evade bar in half while nerfing the entire game.
Meanwhile any other class excels for a time; "hur dur good players just play the class!"; Shafted.

Mesmer in terms of kit is kind of a poorly designed thief in every way, and that is a historic metric. Long ago top players would run thief instead of mesmer for tourneys that actually mattered, and mesmer was only viable for portal and moa, until S1 sPvP chorno bunk which was (correctly) nerfed so hard it became portal and double moa utility instead. Although I still believe alacrity didn't need to get gutted as hard as it did because once again it killed power build's viability; but who cares Condi works so class is fine I guess 🙄. Mirage only works now with it's "one" worth while condi build because A-net couldn't balance condi mirage well enough so they gutted it every which way just to make it fit; That's pretty shafted if you ask me.

We do not have more builds than Ranger does? Unless you're talking PvE; I'm not. The only place "getting shafted" matters is sPvP and WvW; anyone can clear AI the only question is how fast. Ranger has at least 4 viable builds utilizing both elite specs and honestly... all ranger has ever needed is wilderness survival to sustain and can make any build they want on top of it. Meanwhile mesmer can barely make a functional build stitching 3 lines together.

Literally the list goes on and on and on, I didn't get into some of the nuances because it's been years and I'm tired of arguing for something A-net is clearly biased against. but what I put here is just a drop in the bucket of the disparity; and it's been like 9 years now.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Puck.3697]

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

sPvP has gimmick one shot build with a ranged weapon in point blank range with no real defensive option on the set, that is frankly easy to avoid and super to anticipate even from stealth

 

Agreed, chrono defintly has problems but tbh so does every 1 shot build currently. Sadly they just end up left there. 

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

very few top players taking up legendary slots, even less top players even playing it. Didn't matter: nerfed jaunt, nerfed several other defensive mechanics and traits, and then cut their evade bar in half while nerfing the entire game.
Meanwhile any other class excels for a time; "hur dur good players just play the class!"4; Shafted

 

While agreed we do have far more top 10 mesmers then alot of classes. And tbh there aren't many of any class in the top 50 realistically.

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Mesmer in terms of kit is kind of a poorly designed thief in every way, and that is a historic metric

 

I wouldn't really agree here, thief and mesmer are both kinda weird in the metric they boil down to single builds. 

 

Vallun in his 1 build for all content mesmer actually displays this really well. Mesmers defintly had several times in the sun realistically. 

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

We do not have more builds than Ranger does? Unless you're talking PvE; I'm not. The only place "getting shafted" matters is sPvP and WvW;

 

Thats large opinonated I'm afraid. This games turned more and more PvE over the years and ofcourse it's balance matters. 

 

In PvE your based on how high Ur demanded. The weaker u are the less demanded you are. 

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Meanwhile mesmer can barely make a functional build stitching 3 lines together

 

Wouldnt agree here, mesmers have a good side node staff build and a Interupt build. 

 

I play interupt mirage alot. And flatten people with it. I get messages from players screeching at me for playing "easymode OP class* 

 

Litterally I dance around chunking HP while interupting every attempt of a heal lol. People underestimate how strong it is to wake up one day and decide someone's just not gonna have access to half their kit for a game. 

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Power Mirage is pretty garbage thanks to that and playing it is ultimately handicapping yourself from power mesmer since you lose a line and gain nothing of value

 

True, power mirage defintly took a heavy toll for the fact Condi mirage was overperforming. 

 

31 minutes ago, Daishi.6027 said:

iterally the list goes on and on and on, what I put here is just a drop in the bucket of the disparity; and it's been like 9 years now

 

My issue is. Every proffession in some form has these same problems. They are the problem across the board not just mesmers. 

 

We like to say rangers have so many strong options. Yet no representation in monthly ATs. While we have mesmers. Like they don't. They had a meme rooting build. And a decap druid build that got nerfed into the ground realistically. 

 

Elementalists have access to what? Fire weaver? FA is a meme core ele is a meme and tempest is decent but guard outclasses it in support. 

 

Thief has D/P and a Condi core build? With a Deadeye meme build. 

 

The list goes on. Sadly elites were also a pro and con situation. Because it condenses everything into one sphere which over time ruins each other. Elites have needed a improvement to its format for a long time really. ..

 

Id also argue mesmers have 2 builds and both used at a super high level. Also don't forget power chrono won a HS tournament by shorts.

 

I mean sure mesmer ain't the most versatile proffession in the game. But neither is thief. And as they play identical roles in a game they were interchangable. 

 

Don't forget again, lord helseth a mesmer was a multi tournament and eSports winner with mesmer in early days. 

 

The issue is. Thief is easier to play. And that's the truth here. Which means it provides more reliable results on average. 

 

The fact is. Ur correct. Builds have been flattened and destroyed for the sake of balancing other aspects. But this is true for every proffession realistically. 

 

Mesmers lack versatility. But I wouldn't call it weak at what it does do however. Mesmers can side node really well when built for it. And it does have good roaming options. It does lack a teamfight build and imho the elites coulda been done better seperating them from core mechanics alot more. It's hard to disagree with that realistically. 

 

But imho ele and mesmer seem to both suffer from this. Because every elite is so focused to adding something to the base mechanic instead of changing the base mechanic. The proffession never expands in potiental builds or roles. It just keeps doing the same role continuously with a twist. 

 

As I said on a design level I agree. 

 

Chrono was a crazy idea to launch and it paid the price because Anet didn't do something about it before launching it. 

 

Mirage again was a rly dumb idea and should of been ripped off the table from the beginning it was litterally never gonna be ok. 

 

The issue is core mesmer shoulda had hexs. Chrono shoulda had shatters and mirage prolly should have been more phantasm based.

 

The elites basically replace each other not compliment one another so on design level we do defintly agree here. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Daishi.6027]

52 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Wouldnt agree here, mesmers have a good side node staff build and a Interupt build. 

 

I play interupt mirage alot. And flatten people with it. I get messages from players screeching at me for playing "easymode OP class* 

 

Litterally I dance around chunking HP while interupting every attempt of a heal lol. People underestimate how strong it is to wake up one day and decide someone's just not gonna have access to half their kit for a game. 

To clarify, my point regarding the traits was excluding condi mirage; which I still see as cut so specifically to fit into a jigsaw puzzle. People will cry OP about anything but I think it has it's place the same way something like Scourge has a somewhat healthy effect in defining conquest meta.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

My issue is. Every proffession in some form has these same problems. They are the problem across the board not just mesmers. 

My issue is that there has been prejudice FOR YEARS against mesmer. Top players in 2013 (the same ones who would ditch the class for tourneys that actually matter) confirmed that devs and community groups revolving around balance were bias against mesmer. Now in 2021 this still is still true even if we have some new faces and new spaces; That is something other classes do not have to deal with. Sure people are always complaining about something: "nerf teef, DH imba, Necro poops on point can't react, 1vAll I die; all is vain." 

But this is systemic! The people in power who have control over balance, and the narrative of balance have it out for Mesmer.

Mesmer players get by, because unlike that stupid double standard meme of:

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

 "hur dur good players just play that class!"

That's because mesmers actually tend to be, because they are constantly pushed to re-adapt literally from the ground up sometimes. But honestly winning with a handicap is great an all; but there shouldn't be such a handicap to begin with.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

It's not a matter of whether the class/espec is performing good or not, it's about the flavour of it. They've been steadily removing flavour from mesmer and its especs over time and now it's a stackpiled mess that struggles between identity and balance.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

It's not a matter of whether the class/espec is performing good or not, it's about the flavour of it. They've been steadily removing flavour from mesmer and its especs over time and now it's a stackpiled mess that struggles between identity and balance.

Care to explain what you mean here? Can you give an example of where 'flavour' was removed that affected identity? 

 

I can think of an example of class change where flavour was affected in a positive way resulting in more consistency and definition for the class; phantasm-to-clone conversion. Do you have something in mind that is a change that affects flavour negatively?

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

59 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Care to explain what you mean here? Can you give an example of where 'flavour' was removed that affected identity? 

 

I can think of an example of class change where flavour was affected in a positive way resulting in more consistency and definition for the class; phantasm-to-clone conversion. Do you have something in mind that is a change that affects flavour negatively?

 

Phantasm-to-clone conversion would actually be an example I had in mind. Of course it did have a positive impact balance and gameplay-wise, but imo it was born from a core issue with mesmer. Since the game release, mesmer damage was vastly reliant on shattering, but phantasms required you to leave them on the field, so there was a conflict. Phantasm rework fixed that conflict, but it did so by further solidifying that shattering as much as possible is the intended mesmer gameplay. When I started playing, the official description for mesmer gave me the impression that mesmers were supposed to keep their illusions alive, to distract and disorient the enemy, when I soon realised it's vastly more optimal to use your clones like shatter ammo it just seemed so bland and counter to the thematic.

 

For Chronomancer, they have cut down the quickness, slow, and alacrity output over time, and on top of that they've given alacrity to other classes and even to Mirage. The wells were never really that flavourful, they have a clock face because "time", but didn't really give any impression of manipulating time, Continuum Split is the most unique and flavourful thing in Chrono's kit, but it's a 6 second effect gated behind a massive cooldown that they've increased over time, and now the time-related buffs/debuffs that Chrono can apply are on the same level as most other classes so it's not even a niche that it can fill in properly. The fact that Mirage can output more alacrity than Chrono is just ridiculous.

 

Mirage's thematic is basically a core mesmer, but even more elusive and slippery. Naturally that was severely affected when they cut down the dodge count in half, but they also increased the cooldown of illusionary ambush and sand through glass by a considerable amount, both skills that gave Mirage a lot of mobility and elusiveness, and on top of that removed a charge from Jaunt. The fact boon-mirage is now so effective is also a mood-killer since it's kinda immobile.

 

And most recently, the rework to mantras removed all flavour from the ability class, now it's just a bland instant-cast effect on an ammo system. It doesn't even have anything remotely mantra-like to it anymore, nor anything that sets it apart from any other skill-type in any way.

 

As a minor note, they've given the portal ability to necro and thief. It doesn't change much of anything for mesmer but I'm still salty about it since it was such an iconic skill.

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

? you must not play mesmer, power mesmer has one of the fastest one shot burst in pvp, other then FA weave, what classes are you trying to imply here.

 

i know, because i used to play core power one shot mes for fun alot when it one shots people from stealth before the feb 2020 patch

First off you must read what and understand what I had typed, I said long wind up time meaning your cool downs are long if they dodge the burst you will have to kite longer then for example a FA weaver. 

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

It's not a matter of whether the class/espec is performing good or not, it's about the flavour of it. They've been steadily removing flavour from mesmer and its especs over time and now it's a stackpiled mess that struggles between identity and balance.

 

Tbh. When it comes to flavor it's pretty much entirely opinon, and that's the problem with that talk realistically. People will want different weapons to be the best weapons. And imho this is a problem most proffessions suffer from. Where they've got access to 4/5x more weapons then they actually use in any build. 

 

For example staff weaver got absolutely gutted in PoF completely removing a flavor from the proffession. 

 

I wouldn't say chrono and mirage have lost all their flavour however. I'd say they've lost alot of versatility easily however. 

 

Chrono is still very time based and CS is great flavor for the elite which rly builds on it. 

 

And mirage still has access to lots of things such as mirage mirrors which still distinctly pushs it as a mirage. 

 

You wouldn't confuse either of these builds for core mesmer watching them fight. So they do have flavor realistically. 

 

What's been cut down is the versatility of it. For example

 

Power mirage is gone. 

Pure support chrono is gone. 

 

These are playstyles which nerfs basically wiped out from the proffession, which lowers the amounts of options the proffessions have. It's hard to really debate a opinon on what is and isn't fun realistically. 

 

I think axe mirage is tons of fun. I never rly liked the staffs gameplay at all, the only reason I call the OP out is because staffs still very strong in all content, but people seem irritated that it doesn't still do 51k DPS. It's this idea that staffs fun so it should remain which isn't rly ok. If it's overpowered it needs to be reduced. It's very rule breaky in itself. 

 

Flavour can't come before balance. 

 

I think alot of the issue is Anet tend to break soo many ranged options players who favor range lose out, it's across the board here. No class has a fully ranged build even close to optimal currently. Because everything's melee orientated. 

 

It's something I'd like Anet to look into on that front however. Seems weird the game only has melee DPS options most of the time 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Mik.3401]

6 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

It's not a matter of whether the class/espec is performing good or not, it's about the flavour of it. They've been steadily removing flavour from mesmer and its especs over time and now it's a stackpiled mess that struggles between identity and balance.

I think this is really the core of the problem, because in practice Mesmer can be played in various game modes with success. It tends to have such a bad name attached to it, maybe because people expect it to be excelling at stuff always. Like - chrono is labelled as a barely viable fractal build, whilst getting top dps with it is easy (maybe not on the presence of cdps firebrand). 1 dodge is said to destroy the class in pvp whilst it performs just fine.

I am aware that things are worse than in the past, but it’s not like other classes did not take any hit during this time (apart from anet’s favourites of course)

Edited July 8, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think this is really the core of the problem, because in practice Mesmer can be played in various game modes with success. It tends to have such a bad name attached to it, maybe because people expect it to be excelling at stuff always. Like - chrono is labelled as a barely viable fractal build, whilst getting top dps with it is easy (maybe not on the presence of cdps firebrand). 1 dodge is said to destroy the class in pvp whilst it performs just fine.

I am aware that things are worse than in the past, but it’s not like other classes did not take any hit during this time (apart from anet’s favourites of course)

 

Imho I think the game design is the problem here. Elite speccs don't work because just fundamentally are flawed 

 

Elites speccs are basically power put directly ontop of core speccs which are balanced to be ok without them. 

 

They then nerf core Traitlines to balance elite speccs. I think mesmer and elementalist get hit the hardest by this because their mechanics don't change. They just get different things bolted ontop of it. Meaning the mechanic itself is continuously nerfed to put different powers ontop of it. 

 

One dodge works perfectly fine for the side node staff build and the interupt mesmers however we lost several builds over these nerfs. 

 

It was one of my first critisms to the game, elites needed to be more like subclasses to properly devide them from core. 

 

Elites on their current method promote power creep and continuously ruining builds for the sake of balance. 

 

I know everyone gets hyped for new elites. But I question if the better move was to not add another new elite in PoF but simply rework current core builds. 

 

They coulda just added a weapon or 2 to the core. If they wanted to sell it hard and add a new core traitline or 2 to ensure it will require the expansion. 

 

But as mentioned. Tbh this problem is affecting alot more then just mesmers. There isn't realistically a disparity here, every proffession has tons of builds weapon sets and more which are completely unused because other options are just simply better and nerfs have obliterated soo many playstyles for so many proffessions. 

 

Imho every PoF elite needs a full rework. None of them are designed well. They have very obvious holes in them. And they all in some way made the core classes worse. 

 

I think it's time Anet started working abit more on the foundations before layering another level ontop of the structure here, because PoF elites need solving majorly. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Hackuuna.4085]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

One dodge works perfectly fine for the side node staff build and the interupt mesmers however we lost several builds over these nerfs. 

 

It's why Mimic/Signet of Illusions, and Signet of Ether (to an extent) were changed to not work with CS. The aforementioned skills with CS is just multiplicative madness, but the same applies to mirage with signet of illusions and desert distortion. You'd think that, at some point, ANet would recognize that a cleaner solution would be to remove the skills, return mirage dodge, and introduce a replacement with appreciable power. Chronophantasma should also be replaced along with numbers on skills adjusted, so that power core/mirage can have respectable options.

 

In the end, the changes have just reduced the number of viable builds, which in turn reduces the fun of the class, which in turn leads to threads like this. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

Tbh. When it comes to flavor it's pretty much entirely opinon, and that's the problem with that talk realistically. People will want different weapons to be the best weapons. And imho this is a problem most proffessions suffer from. Where they've got access to 4/5x more weapons then they actually use in any build. 

 

For example staff weaver got absolutely gutted in PoF completely removing a flavor from the proffession. 

 

I wouldn't say chrono and mirage have lost all their flavour however. I'd say they've lost alot of versatility easily however. 

 

Chrono is still very time based and CS is great flavor for the elite which rly builds on it. 

 

And mirage still has access to lots of things such as mirage mirrors which still distinctly pushs it as a mirage. 

 

You wouldn't confuse either of these builds for core mesmer watching them fight. So they do have flavor realistically. 

 

What's been cut down is the versatility of it. For example

 

Power mirage is gone. 

Pure support chrono is gone. 

 

These are playstyles which nerfs basically wiped out from the proffession, which lowers the amounts of options the proffessions have. It's hard to really debate a opinon on what is and isn't fun realistically. 

 

I think axe mirage is tons of fun. I never rly liked the staffs gameplay at all, the only reason I call the OP out is because staffs still very strong in all content, but people seem irritated that it doesn't still do 51k DPS. It's this idea that staffs fun so it should remain which isn't rly ok. If it's overpowered it needs to be reduced. It's very rule breaky in itself. 

 

Flavour can't come before balance. 

 

I think alot of the issue is Anet tend to break soo many ranged options players who favor range lose out, it's across the board here. No class has a fully ranged build even close to optimal currently. Because everything's melee orientated. 

 

It's something I'd like Anet to look into on that front however. Seems weird the game only has melee DPS options most of the time 

 

 

It is an opinion yes, but it's not dismissable because of it. If a majority of people share this opinion it's definitely a real issue.

 

And while it's true chrono and mirage still have a little flavour to them, it's at an all time low. Playing mirage or chrono feels no different than playing core mesmer, unlike weaver to elementalist, scourge to necromancer, or holosmith to engineer. Yes, CS adds a lot of flavour and it's really unique, but like I mentioned it's one small duration skill on a huge cooldown in an espec kit that's otherwise unchanged, unlike those 3 examples where you're constantly experiencing the difference.

 

"Flavour can't come before balance."

I think that's a matter of design philosophy, for me balance is worthless if it comes at the cost of the class identity. This issue is very visible on FFXIV for example; they've homogenized all healer classes to balance them, and there was a huge backlash since they now feel completely identical. Balance is important of course, but maintaining the identity and feel of the class should always be a priority when balancing imo.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

 

It is an opinion yes, but it's not dismissable because of it. If a majority of people share this opinion it's definitely a real issue.

 

And while it's true chrono and mirage still have a little flavour to them, it's at an all time low. Playing mirage or chrono feels no different than playing core mesmer, unlike weaver to elementalist, scourge to necromancer, or holosmith to engineer. Yes, CS adds a lot of flavour and it's really unique, but like I mentioned it's one small duration skill on a huge cooldown in an espec kit that's otherwise unchanged, unlike those 3 examples where you're constantly experiencing the difference.

 

"Flavour can't come before balance."

I think that's a matter of design philosophy, for me balance is worthless if it comes at the cost of the class identity. This issue is very visible on FFXIV for example; they've homogenized all healer classes to balance them, and there was a huge backlash since they now feel completely identical. Balance is important of course, but maintaining the identity and feel of the class should always be a priority when balancing imo.

 

If we talk majority. You will never win, because no idea is the majority. Youd have to pull the class into 17 directions to get remotely close to this.

 

Also. You can consider how fun is the class all you want. But you have to also consider how fun it is for the players dealing with the class. 

 

Staff bunker mesmer, isn't fun to fight, nor was chrono at its launch, nor was mirage at its launch. 

 

Plateuing at 34k DPS with Ur proffession to then see some 51k staff mesmer just completely annihilating you? Is also extreme unfun. 

 

Both sides of this situation is very relevant. You have to consider is the proffession doing damage to those who have to fight that proffession or fight that build. 

 

Chrono got shafted because it wasn't good design. 

Mirage got shafted because it wasn't good design 

 

That's just the factor here. They don't work because they shouldn't of existed in the iterations they existed in.

 

Your never gonna find a majority under any opinon. It's pretty proven positive feedback is never spoken on remotely close to negative, sure you got 50 mesmers on a forum who are unhappy but what about the other 3000 mesmers. Are they happy? 

 

Someone's gonna be mad regardless what you do. 

 

Buff staff? People gonna be mad they have to play staff. 

 

Nerf staff? People gonna be mad they can't play staff. 

 

Buff chrono people gonna be mad about having to play chrono

 

Buff mirage people gonna be mad about having to play mirage. 

 

Like you will get a % of people unhappy regardless what you can do. All developers can do is launch ideas they think suit the proffession. Balance those to ensure they aren't ruining other players gameplay. 

 

And keep moving on. 

 

Mesmers elites feeling like core is nothing to do with their nerfs or reworks, the elites feel that way because they all share the identical toolkit. The identical mechanics and work the exactly same and they always have done. 

 

Staff didn't make mirage different. Core mesmer can wear a staff and do the exact same thing. None of the builds made any of the elites different. 

 

The reason you see such a change from for example guardian to firebrand. Is because the entire mechanic evolved. The reason scourge and necro feel different is because the entire mechanic was changed. 

 

Mesmer needs to lose shatters for any elite to ever be unique. 

 

I don't agree on ele and weaver however. They feel the same. Your circling the same attunements just with a different twist. It's not a evolution of that at all 

 

Weaver just feels like ele with alacrity as a passive realistically. 

 

Remove shatters and the elites never gonna feel like core. 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Staff didn't make mirage different. Core mesmer can wear a staff and do the exact same thing. None of the builds made any of the elites different. 

 

This small section alone shows how lack of knowledge you are to mesmers, it is a huge difference. Core mesmer cannot have near perma alacrity uptime which is the HUGE thing nor can they apply condi as much as a mirage can. A condi core has a lot less pressure then a condi mirage. 

 

For example:

Condi mirage has tons of sustained condi dmg and reapplication to some degree bursts as well.

Condi chrono has higher burst then condi mirage but lacks sustain dmg.

 

I don't understand why you think "none of the builds made any of the elites different." 

Power chrono is a core burst but x2 because of split.

Power mirage back then with 2 dodges has much more mobility due to sword 1 ambush. 

 

The lack of knowledge people have of mesmers is the reason why people keep thinking mesmers needs nerf and in a result mesmers getting the nerfs. 

Also doesn't matter how many hours of gameplay you might have on mesmer it does not indicate your actual knowledge and understanding of problems mesmers are facing.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

16 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

This small section alone shows how lack of knowledge you are to mesmers, it is a huge difference. Core mesmer cannot have near perma alacrity uptime which is the HUGE thing nor can they apply condi as much as a mirage can. A condi core has a lot less pressure then a condi mirage. 

 

For example:

Condi mirage has tons of sustained condi dmg and reapplication to some degree bursts as well.

Condi chrono has higher burst then condi mirage but lacks sustain dmg.

 

I don't understand why you think "none of the builds made any of the elites different." 

Power chrono is a core burst but x2 because of split.

Power mirage back then with 2 dodges has much more mobility due to sword 1 ambush. 

 

The lack of knowledge people have of mesmers is the reason why people keep thinking mesmers needs nerf and in a result mesmers getting the nerfs.

No, there isn't much difference between Mirage Staff and Mesmer Staff, you just gain additional effects from Cloak #1, but beyond that gameplay and mechanics are the same and that goes for pretty much most if not all classes.
In other words, Mirage and Chronomancer are built ON TOP OF the Mesmer, they're not "different gameplay" as they should be in the slightest.
You even proved it yourself in your statement with both Power Chrono and Power Mirage lmao.
It's pure powercreep and you don't even see it, or rather ignore it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:35 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

 

Imho I think the game design is the problem here. Elite speccs don't work because just fundamentally are flawed 

 

Elites speccs are basically power put directly ontop of core speccs which are balanced to be ok without them. 

 

They then nerf core Traitlines to balance elite speccs. I think mesmer and elementalist get hit the hardest by this because their mechanics don't change. They just get different things bolted ontop of it. Meaning the mechanic itself is continuously nerfed to put different powers ontop of it. 

 

One dodge works perfectly fine for the side node staff build and the interupt mesmers however we lost several builds over these nerfs. 

 

It was one of my first critisms to the game, elites needed to be more like subclasses to properly devide them from core. 

 

Elites on their current method promote power creep and continuously ruining builds for the sake of balance. 

 

I know everyone gets hyped for new elites. But I question if the better move was to not add another new elite in PoF but simply rework current core builds. 

 

They coulda just added a weapon or 2 to the core. If they wanted to sell it hard and add a new core traitline or 2 to ensure it will require the expansion. 

 

But as mentioned. Tbh this problem is affecting alot more then just mesmers. There isn't realistically a disparity here, every proffession has tons of builds weapon sets and more which are completely unused because other options are just simply better and nerfs have obliterated soo many playstyles for so many proffessions. 

 

Imho every PoF elite needs a full rework. None of them are designed well. They have very obvious holes in them. And they all in some way made the core classes worse. 

 

I think it's time Anet started working abit more on the foundations before layering another level ontop of the structure here, because PoF elites need solving majorly. 

 

 

 

This.

 

The only real non-game-breaking, proper elite I've seen emerge from the expansions is Reaper.  It fundamentally changed how necro is played and while it has way better PvE benchmarks than core, core is designed to be way tankier, and prior to the Reaper's rework, it dealt super low damage as well with way more sustain, but just changed the spec from ranged boon hatred to a bruisery melee beatstick.

 

The rest of the classes though?

 

- Soulbeast and Druid are more or less core ranger with more features.

- Daredevil and DE are just the various core thief builds but made better.

- Spellbreaker and Berserker are more or less the various core warrior builds but made better.

- Core Engineer is actually just awful and has no identity at all, whereas both elites are strictly upgrades for EVERYTHING.

- Weaver/Tempest are barely any different mechanically from core ele; you rotate a ton of skills in a sequence more or less endlessly for optimal results.

- Scourge is generally just core necro but better.

- Rev is massively weaker without Herald.

- FB and DH are definitely specializations but Guard has defines roles/builds which DH and FB turned to 11.

 

The problem with Mesmer's elites, like thief's, is that they're riddled with massive design problems.  The only difference is thief is left to keep its own, probably for no other reason that the class would have no value anywhere if it was nerfed so substantially, since core has been so aggressively targeted for so long.

 

Mesmer still clings to viability despite these nerfs trying to address its elite spec design shortcomings forcing them, but in truth this problem is systemic on every class and ANet's been nerfing symptoms rather than causes of problems for close to 10 years.