I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, The Fear.3865 said:

 

It's just a forum, I post my opinion, I disagree with you guys, and you keep answering like im stupid or something. 

 

I respect what you say, I can also agree some of your suggestions (wvw and pvp legy skins), try to do the same. 

Fair enough.

 

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

You are missing the point, I was talking about the full set of legendary armor, you cant get it in two months, but 7.5 months if you make perfect full clear every weeks (about one year for me on 100% pugway).

Again it takes longer in WvW, much longer if you consider Mistforged level requirement was 1500 until very recently so the idea that raid armor is "harder and takes longer" is incorrect.

 

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Again you bypass the timegate and the challenge in order to get your full legy set faster, now that is the price to pay. And if you chose to do so years ago, I think you had time to benefit from that choice.. 

This is basically a distraction from the real point. A way to avoid actually addressing the issue. Instead this response is composed to imply once again that raid armor is "harder and takes longer" which, again, is factually wrong. It has also been addressed multiple times here by myself and others.

 

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

you chose to craft the easy and fast pvp/wvw set, so you dont deserve the skins

Again takes much longer to get all the hard time gated materials from wvw than raids. The Argument here is that EVERYONE who crafts actual Legendary Armor should get a unique skin or at least a balanced path to get "legendary" armor skins with respect to cost, effort and time.

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Giving the skin to everyone would be unfair for raiders imo, I would have finished my full set years ago if I could just bought wvw and pvp set and also get the skins + raider title. 

So this one I find to be just a giant fallacy. No one has suggested anyone be Given the skin or to even get it for less.

Specifically, it has been suggested that a potential solution to the reward imbalance for legendary armor between modes is to make it possible to buy the Perfected Envoy Skins with all the normal raid and other pve materials that would need to be used to craft actual Perfected Envoy Legendary Armor, but without requirement for the parts in the Gift of Prosperity ONLY. In other words, a way to buy the Envoy skin at the same cost and effort as it takes to craft without the cost of the clovers, T6, etc since its a skin and not armor. This is exactly how wvw/pvp mistforged skins are setup to work, therefore, this would resolve the imbalance. An alternative suggestion has been that WvW/PvP legendary armor never did get its final skin for upgrade (its the same as ascended skin) so if Anet wanted they could arguably just add another skin set for pvp/wvw that is unlocked on upgrade to legendary. Either would seem like reasonable solutions to the issue. Its possible that these solutions might make a few more people due refunds though on some clovers and T6 depending how many sets of each they made before the armory was announced, etc.

 

I genuinely hope that helps you understand what myself and others are saying and also that my response was more general and not really meant to ignore you view. I just felt like its been covered already and we should have a consensus by now.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Moradorin.6217
deleted a fragment at the end.

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 7/26/2021 at 4:34 PM, Oliber.5142 said:

 

They opened the gates when they gave compensation for other duplicates; however not all duplicates are being handled in the same way.

 

It's not free gold, it's that the gold that we spent is now useless and serves no value, would you be happy if you bought a car and the manufacturer turned off a significant, but not mandatory feature? 

I want compensation for doing story with most of my toon, now that Anet launch the RETURN achievement, everyone that does the story multiple times needs to be compensated. Because the RETURN achievement is available for first time players as well. they did not RETURN to do it, but I returned x 5  already SO I WANT COMPENSATION  😛

 

See the ridiculousness of asking for compensation for something you did in a game that is a LIVING STORY ? In my humble opinion, Anet should not have given any compensation to anyone for anything that was done previously. 

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

I want compensation for doing story with most of my toon, now that Anet launch the RETURN achievement, everyone that does the story multiple times needs to be compensated. Because the RETURN achievement is available for first time players as well. they did not RETURN to do it, but I returned x 5  already SO I WANT COMPENSATION  😛

 

See the ridiculousness of asking for compensation for something you did in a game that is a LIVING STORY ? In my humble opinion, Anet should not have given any compensation to anyone for anything that was done previously. 

So can you explain how this compares to anything being debated here? Personally, I don't see any relationship between how many times we have all done story content, or any achievement, nor achievement based rewards and the compensations for redundant legendary items. In this thread, at this point, the focus isnt even on compensation so much as balancing the various game modes reward systems. Depending upon how its fixed some have pointed out it might become fair for a few to get compensation for actual materials they used, none of which would have been from achievements or anything like you suggested. You're response seems to totally miss the entire point of the topic to be frank.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Moradorin.6217
to clarify a point

[SweetPotato.7456]

27 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

So can you explain how this compares to anything being debated here? Personally, I don't see any relationship between how many times we have all done story content, or any achievement, nor achievement based rewards and the compensations for redundant legendary items. In this thread, at this point, the focus isnt even on compensation so much as balancing the various game modes reward systems. Depending upon how its fixed some have pointed out it might become fair for a few to get compensation for actual materials they used, none of which would have been from achievements or anything like you suggested. You're response seems to totally miss the entire point of the topic to be frank.

"You don't see" does not make the whiny players wanting compensation for things they do willingly, without anyone pointing a gun at them to do, playing a game many months ago, coming back now to argue for something because they saw someone else was compensated for something that does not need to be compensated.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:41 AM, Kaizer.5380 said:

I'd like to see a unique legendary skin for wvw/spvp armours, probably the best option.

I think that that is probably the best option here.

[The Fear.3865]

@Infusion.7149 : It does, cause if it wasnt the case, I would have crafted the 3 sets instantly with zero time gate in pvp and wvw. I dont know why, but you keep dodgin that.

 

Once again, I understand what you say, but you dont see my point. Let's take the issue in other way, I did not craft the full pve legy set for legendaries, but for the title and the skins. When I chose to do so, I spend thousand of golds and farm raids for one year (which is not easy btw but anyway). Now with the armory, that changes nothing for me, and when I read what you ask, you propose to devalue a cool and prestigious pve title and some skins by unlocking skins only with LIs, so basically for free. 

 

I think the prestige comes from the timegate, which is really long when you focus a single mode, with raids and Fractals requierements, and the expensive price. 

If I had the choiche, I would have make pvp or wvw set to get my full set instantly and buy the title freely with my LIs without having to hard farm. 

 

That is why im sayin :

-> Yes, add wvw and pvp legy skins, it's a good idea, and add some prestige to these sets. 

-> But IMO, don't make Envoy avalable for peepos who doesnt pay for legy armor and did not spend 7.5 months farming raids (and it's more if you dont w567 btw...). 

 

You keep focusing the legendary armory issue, that imo is just a QoL feature for more casual playerbase, and a really good thing. 

Im focusing the prestige of a skin and a title, and I don't want to see it devaluated like the mistforged wvw armor, or the R55 dragon, or many other things in the game. 

 

That's why I disagree with some of your suggestions. Unfortunately they prob not add wvw and pvp armors so we are stuck from now. I dont think that needs anymore debate. 

[Carnage Runner.4102]

2 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

@Infusion.7149 : It does, cause if it wasnt the case, I would have crafted the 3 sets instantly with zero time gate in pvp and wvw. I dont know why, but you keep dodgin that.

 

Once again, I understand what you say, but you dont see my point. Let's take the issue in other way, I did not craft the full pve legy set for legendaries, but for the title and the skins. When I chose to do so, I spend thousand of golds and farm raids for one year (which is not easy btw but anyway). Now with the armory, that changes nothing for me, and when I read what you ask, you propose to devalue a cool and prestigious pve title and some skins by unlocking skins only with LIs, so basically for free. 

 

I think the prestige comes from the timegate, which is really long when you focus a single mode, with raids and Fractals requierements, and the expensive price. 

If I had the choiche, I would have make pvp or wvw set to get my full set instantly and buy the title freely with my LIs without having to hard farm. 

 

That is why im sayin :

-> Yes, add wvw and pvp legy skins, it's a good idea, and add some prestige to these sets. 

-> But IMO, don't make Envoy avalable for peepos who doesnt pay for legy armor and did not spend 7.5 months farming raids (and it's more if you dont w567 btw...). 

 

You keep focusing the legendary armory issue, that imo is just a QoL feature for more casual playerbase, and a really good thing. 

Im focusing the prestige of a skin and a title, and I don't want to see it devaluated like the mistforged wvw armor, or the R55 dragon, or many other things in the game. 

 

That's why I disagree with some of your suggestions. Unfortunately they prob not add wvw and pvp armors so we are stuck from now. I dont think that needs anymore debate. 

You still do not understand this post at all.  There is an issue with how they roles out compensation for the Armory.  PVE legendary takes roughly the same time as PvP.  It's not 7.5 months it is 10 weeks for the first set.  Raids are not hard, they are easy.  What titles do you keep talking about?  I don't understand this argument.  If you had PvE armor and PvP armor and WvW armor in heavy you would not get the same compensation that someone with 3x WvW heavy/3x PvP Heavy/3x PvE heavy.  That is what is being discussed.  That is patently unfair.  Your "argument" is so detached from reality here...  It makes 0 sense.

[The Fear.3865]

There's 10 pages, I answered specific parts of some suggestions made by people here I already quoted. 

 

1 hour ago, Carnage Runner.4102 said:

What titles do you keep talking about?  I don't understand this argument.  

 

Read the thread again please. 

 

[Linken.6345]

 

10 hours ago, FrizzFreston.5290 said:

I think that that is probably the best option here.

Considering they were never supposed to be implemented and got implemented since community asked for it and dident care about a skin then no its not.

[Moradorin.6217]

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

@Infusion.7149 : It does, cause if it wasnt the case, I would have crafted the 3 sets instantly with zero time gate in pvp and wvw. I dont know why, but you keep dodgin that.

 

Once again, I understand what you say, but you dont see my point. Let's take the issue in other way, I did not craft the full pve legy set for legendaries, but for the title and the skins. When I chose to do so, I spend thousand of golds and farm raids for one year (which is not easy btw but anyway). Now with the armory, that changes nothing for me, and when I read what you ask, you propose to devalue a cool and prestigious pve title and some skins by unlocking skins only with LIs, so basically for free. 

 

I think the prestige comes from the timegate, which is really long when you focus a single mode, with raids and Fractals requierements, and the expensive price. 

If I had the choiche, I would have make pvp or wvw set to get my full set instantly and buy the title freely with my LIs without having to hard farm. 

 

That is why im sayin :

-> Yes, add wvw and pvp legy skins, it's a good idea, and add some prestige to these sets. 

-> But IMO, don't make Envoy avalable for peepos who doesnt pay for legy armor and did not spend 7.5 months farming raids (and it's more if you dont w567 btw...). 

 

You keep focusing the legendary armory issue, that imo is just a QoL feature for more casual playerbase, and a really good thing. 

Im focusing the prestige of a skin and a title, and I don't want to see it devaluated like the mistforged wvw armor, or the R55 dragon, or many other things in the game. 

 

That's why I disagree with some of your suggestions. Unfortunately they prob not add wvw and pvp armors so we are stuck from now. I dont think that needs anymore debate. 

Your responsed continue to overlook/ignore the facts of the topic, and instead you sideline and falsely imply that we are suggesting people get Perfected Envoy for less time and less work or even to be given things, which is far from what is being discussed.

 

What we are suggesting is either:

A) A unique skin set be given to compensate pvp/wvw sets for the imbalance created by the armory to properly reward people for the actual gold investment of doing the legendary upgrades with pvp/wvw armor.

OR

B) A new puchase path be created to obtain Perfected Envoy Skins Similar to how PvP and WvW mistforged skins can be obtained without crafting armor. Suggested Method = Require the Envoy 1+ 2 collections be completed, require all the same materials needed to craft the legendary minus the non-time gated gold purchasable items used in the Gift of Prosperity ONLY.

 

In other words, "to buy a skin" I suggest the person DOES NEED all LI, Prov tokens, Chak Eggs, yada, yada, yada, BUT NOT the clovers, and T6 materials. Therefore, your entire argument that says: ( ref. quote)

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

But IMO, don't make Envoy avalable for peepos who doesnt pay for legy armor and did not spend 7.5 months farming raids (and it's more if you dont w567 btw...). 

A literal fallacy because we arent talking about anyone doing any less farming, raiding, etc. The only valid part of that statement is you also seem to think everyone should have to pay to make full legendary to get the skins, but then we are literally back to the original Balance issue which you yourself acknowledged previously when you suggested that PvP/WvW legendary should get another skin set to fix the imbalance.

 

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

I think the prestige comes from the timegate

Ok so since you think that you should have NO issue with the suggested puchase method. SO I guess you really do agree with me you are seemingly unwilling to admit it thought...

 

I dont feel like your side of the argument holds water at all. The only bit that might have relevance at all is the title but that title is for crafting actual armor, not for skin unlocks. So again its a non-issue.

 

I can only assume you still don't totally get what we are suggesting. The only other possibility that comes to mind is you are just unwilling to admit our view is valid, reasonable and correct.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Moradorin.6217
typo

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

There's 10 pages, I answered specific parts of some suggestions made by people here I already quoted. 

 

 

Read the thread again please. 

 

How about you actually read Moradorin's posts.

They didn't suggest that you don't need LI/Pve currencies. So unless you consider the resource sink which is the exact same you aren't getting anything for "free". You still need legendary armor to put in the legendary armory from PVP/WVW.

Your situation: you made PVE armors even though you hate PVE raids.You have the PVP/WVW skins.
Someone else's situation: they made armor from all 3 modes instead of waiting, if the suggestion is implemented they can obtain the skin for PVE. Or alternatively, the PVP/WVW legendaries gain a skin making it actually something functionally different (see Warbringer/Ascension) so that PVE players actually have a reason to make a PVP/WVW legendary armor.

 

How simple do I have to make it?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How about you actually read Moradorin's posts.

They didn't suggest that you don't need LI/Pve currencies. So unless you consider the resource sink which is the exact same you aren't getting anything for "free". You still need legendary armor to put in the legendary armory from PVP/WVW.

Your situation: you made PVE armors even though you hate PVE raids.You have the PVP/WVW skins.
Someone else's situation: they made armor from all 3 modes instead of waiting, if the suggestion is implemented they can obtain the skin for PVE. Or alternatively, the PVP/WVW legendaries gain a skin making it actually something functionally different (see Warbringer/Ascension) so that PVE players actually have a reason to make a PVP/WVW legendary armor.

 

How simple do I have to make it?

So this option is locked if you dont own spvp or wvw legendary then?

 

If so I can agree that is a good idea.

[Infusion.7149]

58 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So this option is locked if you dont own spvp or wvw legendary then?

 

If so I can agree that is a good idea.

Even if it isn't locked for PVP/WVW only, if you only get the Envoy skin then people in PVE wouldn't do it that way because they wouldn't get legendary armor in the armory and still need to spend LI , provisioner tokens , and map currencies. Unless you think people would only unlock the skin and forgo the legendary armory unlock I don't think that is a huge deal especially since most people think PVE medium armor looks garbage. Considering people are proposing nonsense such as openworld legendary armor without the Envoy skin, I would say that is a minor concern. It would be a concern if no LI or map currencies were spent.

The vendor could simply give Envoy Armor skin (not armor) if you have the respective Refined Envoy + Gift of Prowess (LI + cube of stabilized dark energy) + Gift of Dedication (more map currencies) + Gift of craftsmanship (instead of Gift of Prosperity).
Net savings would be 15 clovers + gift of condensed might/magic which is valued at ~375g per piece (see https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~1-78866   ). That's up to 6750g...

Of course all of that is not necessary if WVW/PVP legendary armor had their own skin available , especially if you have mistforged unlocked. The reason why my first post stated that an upgraded WVW/PVP set would be preferable is because it adds long term value as getting 1095 tickets per piece takes far longer than the ascended skin which is more or less 2.6K tickets for all pieces per mistforged set (~11 weeks if you include the base Triumphant Hero). Mind you, WvW has the lowest gold/hour by far.

The PVP set doesn't have this timegate unless you go for the legendary version that requires league tickets which is why it adds immense value to PVP : base and mistforged ascended (2400 ascended shards of glory in total) can be grinded out in one season if you play a ridiculous amount of hours by looping Byzantium ranked chest. My PvX guildleader has a full set of PVP legendary armor (plus WVW+PVE) and one of my wiki friends that plays PVP most of the time in plat+ has the PVP legendary armor set(s) so if they ever decide to raid more often in PVE they would be totally screwed currently with respect to condensed might/magic.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Carnage Runner.4102]

Sure would be nice if a Dev could chime in here and let us know if ANYTHING IS BEING LOOKED AT?  Some people are out thousands of gold, i'm lucky that it was only 1 set extra but it's still a sizable chunk of in game currency.  Will Anet do anything about this massive discrepancy that they have created.  It seems like such a large oversight that negatively affects players that have put so much into this game...

[darkgmax.7203]

so its look like we are gonna get ignored 😞 , no dev have come here not even to say hi, i still think none of this would have happened if they didnt compensate anyone , and didnt segment the comunity in two, but again we are a minority of minority now so i dont think they will even answer this post to express their opinion

[Imba.9451]

While I love the legendary Armory, I do think that the current system regarding armor does not complement the actual different armor sets.

Explanation:

Let's say 2 players want to craft a set of legendary light armor. One is doing so by going the PvP route, the other player does raids. While the player who crafted the Envoy Armor "only" needs to buy another set of ascended armor to unlock the corresponding pvp-skin, the player who played pvp (and probably invested ALOT more time in his armor) does have to craft another set of legendary armor in order to use the envoy skin, while having 0 benefit from crafting a second set of legendary armor.

 

I think this system is not healthy. Personally, I would like to see the perfected Envoy Armor being unlockable by paying LI and some gold if you have already crafted another legendary armor of the same weight class. The system is already implemented with some PvP-Weapon skins, that hav additional "awakened" forms that can only be unlocked by unlocking the first skin.

I would happily pay some gold and LI in order to unlock the raid skins. But as of right now, crafting PvP, and ESPECIALLY WvW Legendary Armor seems like a huge waste to me. And thats even before taking into account the absurd amount of time you have to play PvP and WvW in relation to raids.

 

Hence, I would request additional ways to unlock those skins.

 

Edit: I know some elitists will take issue with this, but I stand by my opinion that this isn't a system that synergizes well with the Armory.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Moradorin.6217]

48 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

While I love the legendary Armory, I do think that the current system regarding armor does not complement the actual different armor sets.

Explanation:

Let's say 2 players want to craft a set of legendary light armor. One is doing so by going the PvP route, the other player does raids. While the player who crafted the Envoy Armor "only" needs to buy another set of ascended armor to unlock the corresponding pvp-skin, the player who played pvp (and probably invested ALOT more time in his armor) does have to craft another set of legendary armor in order to use the envoy skin, while having 0 benefit from crafting a second set of legendary armor.

 

I think this system is not healthy. Personally, I would like to see the perfected Envoy Armor being unlockable by paying LI and some gold if you have already crafted another legendary armor of the same weight class. The system is already implemented with some PvP-Weapon skins, that hav additional "awakened" forms that can only be unlocked by unlocking the first skin.

I would happily pay some gold and LI in order to unlock the raid skins. But as of right now, crafting PvP, and ESPECIALLY WvW Legendary Armor seems like a huge waste to me. And thats even before taking into account the absurd amount of time you have to play PvP and WvW in relation to raids.

 

Hence, I would request additional ways to unlock those skins.

 

Edit: I know some elitists will take issue with this, but I stand by my opinion that this isn't a system that synergizes well with the Armory.

Agreed each legendary skin set should be balanced. We talked about it here quite a bit.

 

 

Many of us feel that to be balanced either PvP and WvW legendary armor needs a unique skin upgrade from normal mistforged or Perfected envoy skins need to be obtainable similarly to how Mistforged is. That is, for the currency and materials that would be used to craft the legendary minus the gift of prosperity bits. It should also require all the envoy achievements have been completed.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

Now I am very happy with the armory. I do however feel like the skin balance situation is pretty big and should be addressed by anet.

[Imba.9451]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:33 AM, The Fear.3865 said:

@Infusion.7149 : It does, cause if it wasnt the case, I would have crafted the 3 sets instantly with zero time gate in pvp and wvw. I dont know why, but you keep dodgin that.

Except getting the materials from PvP, while not strictly timegated, would take you alot longer in terms of time spent on farming it.

On 8/13/2021 at 9:33 AM, The Fear.3865 said:

-> But IMO, don't make Envoy avalable for peepos who doesnt pay for legy armor and did not spend 7.5 months farming raids (and it's more if you dont w567 btw...). 

 

 

7.5 months? You can get your first set in less than 2 months.

[Imba.9451]

Glad to see this topic is already being discussed. Sad to see Anet seemingly does not care.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

While I love the legendary Armory, I do think that the current system regarding armor does not complement the actual different armor sets.

Explanation:

Let's say 2 players want to craft a set of legendary light armor. One is doing so by going the PvP route, the other player does raids. While the player who crafted the Envoy Armor "only" needs to buy another set of ascended armor to unlock the corresponding pvp-skin, the player who played pvp (and probably invested ALOT more time in his armor) does have to craft another set of legendary armor in order to use the envoy skin, while having 0 benefit from crafting a second set of legendary armor.

 

I think this system is not healthy. Personally, I would like to see the perfected Envoy Armor being unlockable by paying LI and some gold if you have already crafted another legendary armor of the same weight class. The system is already implemented with some PvP-Weapon skins, that hav additional "awakened" forms that can only be unlocked by unlocking the first skin.

I would happily pay some gold and LI in order to unlock the raid skins. But as of right now, crafting PvP, and ESPECIALLY WvW Legendary Armor seems like a huge waste to me. And thats even before taking into account the absurd amount of time you have to play PvP and WvW in relation to raids.

 

Hence, I would request additional ways to unlock those skins.

 

Edit: I know some elitists will take issue with this, but I stand by my opinion that this isn't a system that synergizes well with the Armory.

You've got an  idea here.

So long as it takes 900 LI for all  18 skins, I'd be on board with this idea.

[The Fear.3865]

Envoy in 2 months, sure, im talking about the title. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by The Fear.3865

[Gehenna.3625]

Didn't Anet say that if you have double legendaries that you could contact them and they'd see what can be done?

[Moradorin.6217]

7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Didn't Anet say that if you have double legendaries that you could contact them and they'd see what can be done?

This ends up being another issue. Its not exactly double legendary. The issue comes down to the armory changing how legendary armor is used and functions a little bit so now pvp and wvw legendary sets are literally equivalent to Ascended armor that has been allowed to use Armory. That is, PvP and WvW Armor takes longer than raid armor to procure and costs as much and some times more to craft as Envoy, but unlike envoy people can just buy the Mistforged skins without even getting pvp/wvw armor at all. You can just buy the skins off the merchant unlike Envoy. This means that now that the armory is live anyone who wants full legendary armor on all 3 armor types with all 54 skins can just get 3 sets of Envoy legendary armor and buy the pvp and wvw skins and save many many thousands of gold and end up with full functionality and all 54 skins, but anyone who already has made legendary pvp and or wvw armor and also wants to have all 54 skins they would have to actually craft all the envoy amor even when they already have a legendary armor set of that type JUST for the skins. This creates a large value imbalance between pvp/wvw legendary armor and raid legendary armor. That is rather significant and really needs to be addressed. Most feel either pvp wvw armor needs a unique skin set that is only unlocked on crafting legendary armor or envoy skins need to be buyable in some way.

[darkgmax.7203]

12 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Didn't Anet say that if you have double legendaries that you could contact them and they'd see what can be done?

yeah many of us did, the usual response was that they cannot do anything because those are different legendaries and to start a post to see if it gets enough attention from the community and the devs, but its a little sad that we already did that and this thread  is feeling  abandoned even when the topic is still alive

Edited August 23, 2021 by darkgmax.7203