twisted marionette is virtually unwinnable for a casual group

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

This is what happens when you put so much power creep in a game that people dont need to learn fundamental mechanics. People are used to being semi afk for world events and never having to pay attention. A reasonably good player can solo a platform, so 3-4 pugs struggling is merely an issue of them not paying attention or not understanding the fight yet. The only valid issue ive heard is what will happen weeks/months from now when there arent enough people to fill a squad.

[Jokuc.3478]

2 hours ago, Mayga.7241 said:

Real pro don't allow themselves to do that

I never claimed to be a pro. I'm not a pro. I'm just a normal player who actually puts effort into learning. I did the Marionette for the first time just like a lot of others here and yet I was able to kill the bosses on my very first try with minimal effort just by reading up on their mechanics beforehand. It's not hard to spend 10 minutes to watch a video, most people seem to die because they have literally no f clue what to do, not because they can't reach benchmark dps. It's not elitist to expect people to learn the mechanics before jumping into a fight that literally says it requires coordination.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Jokuc.3478

[xianvar.6075]

48 minutes ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

It's not elitist to expect people to learn the mechanics before jumping into a fight that literally says it requires coordination.

See, I disagree with this specifically. Coordination =/= learning mechanics before =/= being able to solo a champ. Coordination means having the requisite number of players at each lane. I PUGged two public instanced, and we definitely needed coordination! Commanders tagged up, people stayed in their lane (at least in the squad I was in, couldn't tell with the others really), people went to the platforms in adequate numbers.

But stuff can happen. Life can happen. Ping when such huge new content is released and everybody storms into the game can be a pain, and I can't describe how nervous I got when my ping spiked during lane II's phase (I was lane III). And wouldn't you know it? I DC'd right when Lane II was done and _barely_ managed to come back and squeeze onto the platforms before the gates closed. And it still didn't mean instant failure because enough people were there.

 

Honestly, just because I've watched the Marionette how to before I went it didn't mean anything for trying to kite the Lane I boss at all, because, well, I took my Raid FB in and imo attacking a mob from behind that is following you bc you're alone on your lane is pretty hard (and if you say "oh just dodge through the mob" -- well, I used my dodges to evade the Marionette's Attack).

 

I would not expect anyone to be able to solo these champs. If they can? Well, I'll be glad to have them on my team. But not being able to solo a boss does not mean that you're a terrible player, it just means the person expecting you to do it is being pretty elitist.

[Ashantara.8731]

I just did it for the first time since last night's update, and it was very easy with lanes communicating with each other.

 

I hope ANet does not listen to these demands to nerf the whole thing - that would be a shame.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[Omega.6801]

Went with public five times so far, every time we managed to do it.

That being said. We had instances where platforms where empty or people didn't know what to do, failing an entire lane and  can see that, maybe during hours with extremely low trafic, this might end up being a problem. But the event is far from "virtually unwinnable for a casual group".

[Jilora.9524]

Most that don't want nerfs are the I joined a 250li squad so yeah that's easy. Now 50 man pug no req squad is a pita so don't do that w/o expecting fails. I would just join the public one every 2h for this week to get achieves done. Now after this week the not so good casual players are screwed so get it done this week is my recommendation.

[ugrakarma.9416]

18 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

People were able to do it just fine years ago before the power creep. It’s barely been 3 hours since the update.   People just need time to learn the mechanics. 

as if Anet never messed up bosses power scale before in updates.

 

anyone remember some update when DRMs with challenge motes actived ppl was killing Ryland like paper? or the first days "winnable" drakkar? also first day Bonneskinner was paper too?

Edited July 14, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[Ayrilana.1396]

14 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

as if Anet never messed up bosses power scale before in updates.

 

anyone remember some update when DRMs with challenge motes actived ppl was killing Ryland like paper? or the first days "winnable" drakkar? also first day Bonneskinner was paper too?

The scaling on the bosses is fine as they don’t have that much health. It’s the mechanics which continue to trip players up and is very apparent. I did a public instance last night and we finished it in about 14 minutes without any lane failing. There are other times in a public instance where lane five didn’t even get a chance. It all comes down to players not using CC on the champs during the lane defense event and failing the mechanics when fighting the boss. 
 

This isn’t some one off scaling bug. 

[ugrakarma.9416]

11 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

The scaling on the bosses is fine as they don’t have that much health. It’s the mechanics which continue to trip players up and is very apparent. I did a public instance last night and we finished it in about 14 minutes without any lane failing. There are other times in a public instance where lane five didn’t even get a chance. It all comes down to players not using CC on the champs during the lane defense event and failing the mechanics when fighting the boss. 
 

This isn’t some one off scaling bug. 

i agree the scale is fine(perhaps near perfect). but the aoe insta kill is very punishable for glass cannons with low mobility. even harder fractals doesnt have anything like this, some sort of "glass cannon cleaner".

Edited July 14, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[Cyninja.2954]

Twice in public instance. Twice success (with 1 fail in the first run, but the following lanes covered).

 

Public instances are already organizing and using squad commanders per lane to acquire the minimum/ideal number of players per lane.

 

The difficulty is fine. As players gain more experience, they will know which lanes to got to and which champions they can take or not. As well as lanes moving over to help, once the debuff has run out, to deal with the more challenging later wardens.

 

Here are some pointers and notes:

- if you are going down often during lane phase -> get better or improve your build, or both. There is nearly no reason to go down in lane phase, with maybe getting spiked 1nce or so

- if you are struggling with any of the first 3 wardens -> get better or improve your build, ideally both

- wardens become increasingly difficult. if you are a weaker player, try to take a spot in lane 1 or 2

- bring cc, it increases damage done to broken champions

- have 1 ranged option, or be prepared to dodge a lot of melee cleave against some wardens

- the debuff you receive after killing a warden usually expires before 5 lanes have passed. This allows 1 lane to shift over to another and help out. Use this for example to deal with the final warden and have the fight succeed (be prepared to have all the minion rush through the lane though)

- aoe skills CAN reach other platforms. For example, using a Signet of Undeath on your platform will resurrect any adjacent platform player in the effect range

- don't forget the regulator. Happens quite often after killing the champion, remember you are not done

- use the special action command to support other lanes, potentially saving it for a rally

Edited July 14, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Ayrilana.1396]

6 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

i agree the scale is fine(perhaps near perfect). but the aoe insta kill is very punishable for glass cannons with low mobility. even harder fractals doesnt have anything like this, some sort of "glass cannon cleaner".

You’re getting hit with multiple AoE’s. If it’s the boss that I’m thinking then I believe ranged attacks were advised for those unable to avoid them in melee.

[ugrakarma.9416]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

You’re getting hit with multiple AoE’s. If it’s the boss that I’m thinking then I believe ranged attacks were advised for those unable to avoid them in melee.

not boss itself, it platform 4 come some sort of "aoe rain" circles coming from nowwhere, with big reds. this "red area" fills 50% of platform or more.... inst like platform  2 where "dodge or die" mechanics is doable once u are paying attention(its punish lazy/unnattention which is fine).

[Ayrilana.1396]

7 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

not boss itself, it platform 4 come some sort of "aoe rain" circles coming from nowwhere, with big reds. this "red area" fills 50% of platform or more.... inst like platform  2 where "dodge or die" mechanics is doable once u are paying attention(its punish lazy/unnattention which is fine).

I’d have to look at that particular platform but you may be getting hit by the attack the marionette does. 
 

EDIT: I just watched the boss fight for that lane. The boss does a conal AoE in front of it and these does a series of small overlapping circles in the middle after a certain HP threshold it reached.  The large singular circle is from the marionette. Also watch out for confusion stacks. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

13 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

not boss itself, it platform 4 come some sort of "aoe rain" circles coming from nowwhere, with big reds. this "red area" fills 50% of platform or more.... inst like platform  2 where "dodge or die" mechanics is doable once u are paying attention(its punish lazy/unnattention which is fine).

Think it's the 3rd or 2nd lane... The warden is similar to the mama fight in 98 fractal first boss...  Lot of adjacent overlapping red aoe and the warden itself does a full 360degree spin attack and jump stomp attack

Edited July 14, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Aaralyna.3104]

I have done this fight 7 times of which 2 in public (today) and 5 in private (yesterday). Out of them all I succeeded once in public. In private once got close but died with another player on the 2nd time platform (didn't really have a chance with a champion that hugged near marionette, did not take damage from front so you had to stand near marionette in middle of aoe, and a full floor with aoe's that did not go at all on any side of the floor and that with extra mobs on platform killed upon entering).

 

The biggest part I see it fail is that too many mobs go through the portals (a lot shout only the champions matter but all mobs do). The other part I see it fail a lot is questionable platform boss encounters like the one described above (some seconds are lost due to long load screen as well where you already get damage) or ending up solo on a platform (or an empty platform).

 

That said, and I am a casual player, I do not want this boss nerfed. I like its difficulty level that is quite on par with Tripple Trouble. Both need organisation, players to know what CC is and to use it on what.

 

If you are not a raid player (or you know you won't be able to solo a champion on a platform aka whole event fails if you die/screw up) then I would advise you to opt for the public version as that allows 80 players and a little more wiggle room and less self independence. 

 

All in all a very fun event and if you succeed it actually feels like a victory. 

 

P.s This is quite helpfull info:

 

The platform champions are as follows:

Champion Regulator Warden I: This is immune to attacks from the front, and must be damaged from behind. It also summons Twisted Reavers, so they also need to be dealt with.

Champion Regulator Warden II: A Watchwork creature that places mines as it moves. While moving it cannot be damaged, so it must be lured onto its own mines, at which point it will be stunned for a period of time.

Champion Regulator Warden III: This champion has a penchant for bombs, knockdowns, and dealing large amounts of damage very quickly.

Champion Regulator Warden IV: This Watchwork applies several stacks of confusion if you're hit by its shriek attack, so be careful about auto-attacking it while confused.

Champion Regulator Warden V: The final champion divides and forms new Watchworks when killed. It requires careful application of stacking and AoE skills.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Aaralyna.3104

[xianvar.6075]

11 minutes ago, Aaralyna.3104 said:

If you are not a raid player (or you know you won't be able to solo a champion on a platform aka whole event fails if you die/screw up) then I would advise you to opt for the public version as that allows 80 players and a little more wiggle room and less self independence. 

yeah, seconded -- except the public instance will be going away at the next patch (at least I have not heard anything to the contrary so far).

 

Something else I'm wondering when reading this thread (not the post I'm quoting part of) is what exactly people are seeing regarding "don't listen to the demands for nerfs!" bc I have seen very little demand for actual nerfs, just a failsafe to make the platform fights actually doable with your average player group...

[Jokuc.3478]

2 hours ago, xianvar.6075 said:

not being able to solo a boss does not mean that you're a terrible player, it just means the person expecting you to do it is being pretty elitist

Seems like you are missing my point. I'm absolutely not saying people should be able to solo the champ. I used me being able to do that as an example that it's very much possible to beat them with minimal effort if you know how the fight works. The fact that 2 people frequently fail this fight means that they either don't know what they should be doing or they don't know how their class works.

[ugrakarma.9416]

16 minutes ago, Aaralyna.3104 said:

The biggest part I see it fail is that too many mobs go through the portals (a lot shout only the champions matter but all mobs do). The other part I see it fail a lot is questionable platform boss encounters like the one described above (some seconds are lost due to long load screen as well where you already get damage) or ending up solo on a platform (or an empty platform)

mobs going portal interfere with meta? i see lots of ppl talking about it, but i see the groups negleting it(just focusing on champion).

[zealex.9410]

15 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The original desing assumed 5 people per platform (125 players total). Private squad size is 50.

The problem is not that they changed the original design. The problem is that they didn't change it, when they moved it from an open world event (where it would have worked fine) to an instanced squad one.

Tbf the game has changed since then, powercreep most of all.

[Aaralyna.3104]

2 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

mobs going portal interfere with meta? i see lots of ppl talking about it, but i see the groups negleting it(just focusing on champion).

Everytime I see people fighting the champions and ignoring mobs and mobs escaping into the portal and along that I see the marionette's bar go fuller. When I see players kill all mobs before they enter I see this same bar stay low. A full bar means event failed. And it cannot be the platform causing this effect given the notices that the chains break which means these champions all die.

[xianvar.6075]

2 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

mobs going portal interfere with meta? i see lots of ppl talking about it, but i see the groups negleting it(just focusing on champion).

Yeah, the twisted mobs advance the cannon power level by about 0.25%, but the smaller mobs can be killed incidentally. The Aether mobs you can safely ignore otoh.

5 minutes ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

Seems like you are missing my point. I'm absolutely not saying people should be able to solo the champ. I used me being able to do that as an example that it's very much possible to beat them with minimal effort if you know how the fight works. The fact that 2 people frequently fail this fight means that they either don't know what they should be doing or they don't know how their class works

I see what you're saying, but don't agree. Other factors (ping for example) also play into it. In general the conclusion should not be "git gud", because from my experience with games, most players will instead move on to other, more rewarding content and leave behind dead content. Also sorry if it seemed like all of my thoughts were geared right towards  you; it was sparked by your initial comment, but I've seen a few people insist that the "filthy casuals" just "need to git gud" so that influenced my thoughts there.

[Nata.9812]

The difficult level of this boss is ok. It is not meant to be easy.

The problem is that the players have only one week to learn the mechanics. It is troublesome specially for the ones who didn´t participate in the 1st season. We must remember that the vast majority of players don´t have 2h to play every day: it takes more than 1/2 h to organize, 1/2 h of event, so it is at least 1h for one single attempt. Moreover, there are 5 different mechanics that the player must learn and if one single platform fails, everybody fails.

[Maria Murtor.7253]

Two things I don't like about this encounter:

 

1.) Defending isn't satisfying. Way too much mobs respawning way too fast. It has little impact on the whole encounter.

2.) 50 people are paticipating on this encounter. 10 fight the Marionette, 40 defend. 48 people can do an awesome job, and 2 people can just be unlucky and get killed while fighting the Marionette. Everyone gets punished for it. That's no good game design. Recovering from a mistake should be a thing and the other 8 people should have waaaay more impact on what the rest of their squad is doing.

[Astralporing.1957]

16 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Tbf the game has changed since then, powercreep most of all.

The difficulty of this fight is not as impacted by powercreep, though. It mostly lies in plain numbers. The fact that public instance with average players are having significantly easier time than full squads of pre-screened players of above-average competence each (well, unless it's a full scourge squad, ofc - those generally have it easy either way)  clearly shows that it's the numbers that are way more important than competence here.

[Cynder.2509]

Difficulty in my opinion is fine but it would be nice if the public option stays (which is unlikely as it seems) as I don't have that much time in this busy week. Using LFG for a private one is tedious because first of all, my anxiety and shyness and second, the requirements and high expectations everyone has. Yes, I did and still raid again (as soon as I find yet another fitting guild which seems very unlikely as of recent *sigh*) and have experience with the event overall. 
It's just that some people don't have all time in the world to catch up on it soon enough to get achievements done. And then there's also people who want to play a game and not do a job as that is already a private life issue and people usually want to relax a bit in the evening after coming from work.