Should there be OOC weapon/build template cooldown restrictions?

[Andy.5981]

With todays introduction of a quick swap build/weapon template button directly on the main interface, it it time to introduce some sort of cooldown on being able to swap whilst out on the battlefield?

Whilst you are unable to swap whilst in combat, we all know that some classes are able to get out of combat far easier and far more effectively than others. With the ability to quickly swap from one build to another some players can quickly turn a losing battle around and return to the fray with a completely different build which may well be more effective against the player they have just been fighting.

What I suggest is to have no limit on template swaps at the home waypoint sector, but introduce a 1 minute cooldown on template swaps after a player gets out of combat whilst on any other part of the map.

Obviously if you are OOC on any other part of the map you can swap as normal, the cooldown only kicks in for 1 minute after you cease to be in combat (hopefully that makes sense!)

 

Thoughts?

Edited July 13, 2021 by Andy.5981

[Zikory.6871]

I haven't logged on to try it yet. Is it faster and/or easier then the keybinds? Could already swap pretty fast. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

No.

 

Full disclaimer. I don't even use the templates.

[kash.9213]

No, leave it alone, it's fair enough. That class that can get out of combat a little faster is built like that because they have to be able to create some distance, but it's very likely that class doesn't have any builds that are going to change the outcome. If you're built to be able to sustain in a fight you have no reason to bail for a second to change builds. This is a weird suggestion that you might have thought through more. 

[Andy.5981]

Not sure if there is a speed difference between keybinds or this new system, but it is part of the Weapon swap button beside the combat keys. When you press the little up arrow you get two vertical stacks of boxes one for equipment and one for builds.

[Andy.5981]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No.

 

Full disclaimer. I don't even use the templates.

Bit like me, but I have had opponents who clearly have altered their build/weapon set very quickly when they've fled and then returned to combat.

[Andy.5981]

2 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

No, leave it alone, it's fair enough. That class that can get out of combat a little faster is built like that because they have to be able to create some distance, but it's very likely that class doesn't have any builds that are going to change the outcome. If you're built to be able to sustain in a fight you have no reason to bail for a second to change builds. This is a weird suggestion that you might have thought through more. 

I agree if you are built for sustain then there probably isn't any need to flee, however if you aren't then there probably is.

I disagree that this is a weird suggestion, that's your opinion, this is mine. I think it is worthy of debate.

[Widmo.3186]

No, templates been used before, this update doesnt change anything in how they work.
They would be broken if you could change build in combat, ooc everything is perfect. Use templates yourself if you need, if not then let others have fun. And if you lost fight because enemy switched builds to counter you - thats your problem, you couldve done the very same to counter him. 

[Hackuuna.4085]

9 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

 you couldve done the very same to counter him. 

Technically that's not true, since getting OOC requires one to create distance and not every build or class is capable of that. 

[Cuks.8241]

I haven't noticed or used the new button yet but I doubt it's better than key binds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Andy.5981 said:

Bit like me, but I have had opponents who clearly have altered their build/weapon set very quickly when they've fled and then returned to combat.

I can do that while running back from the WP, without templates. Not to hard when you know where everything is.

[Widmo.3186]

1 hour ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

Technically that's not true, since getting OOC requires one to create distance and not every build or class is capable of that. 

???
if youre fighting 1v1 then if you go ooc the other person will go ooc too. There are some things that might prevent it, such as conditions, but its double-edged sword. And if you dont know how to abuse going ooc even with the most static build, once again - thats your problem

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

I agree if you are built for sustain then there probably isn't any need to flee, however if you aren't then there probably is.

I disagree that this is a weird suggestion, that's your opinion, this is mine. I think it is worthy of debate.

1v1 the other player gets to reset also. In team fights, the one who resets either broke the team comp to leave combat or they're not a class+build that factors into that comp. So, why the one minute cooldown that would probably only effect group buffs and prep between fights?

 

Maybe it wouldn't seem so weird without the cooldown idea. That player who you want to limit the use of build template switching will most likely be near done with their minute while the other player only got to drop combat about half way through their opponents minute. Which class did you have in mind that can drop combat easily but also have the build diversity to come back and flip a team fight? I kind of get your concern and what you're saying but I think the problem you're witnessing most often can be attributed to experienced players. 

[Hackuuna.4085]

38 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

???
if youre fighting 1v1 then if you go ooc the other person will go ooc too. There are some things that might prevent it, such as conditions, but its double-edged sword. And if you dont know how to abuse going ooc even with the most static build, once again - thats your problem

You can try to predict what build they're switching to when they OOC but you're rolling the dice. 

[Dawdler.8521]

The odds of someone being so good at shifting between multiple builds instantly and playing them all so good they win because of it seems fairly low compared to someone running a single build they are very good at.

 

Also I would consider the opponent to this multi-pro-elite-build-shifter to have a weak build if he also cannot adjust regardless of shifted build. Worst case scenario - it takes some time and maybe even a death to adjust for the next fight.

 

Roaming is all about being good on a build that can deal with most enemy builds or escape the rest.

 

That the enemy change build feel irrelevant.

[Widmo.3186]

10 hours ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

You can try to predict what build they're switching to when they OOC but you're rolling the dice. 

???
The hell youre talking about. First you said something about not all builds being able to go ooc, which I explained why it doesnt work like that. And now your argument is about predicting what build they're switching to, once again - thats your problem. If you play the game long enough then you know what build of certain class might counter you and because of experience you dont have to roll the dice (quick example, if you play d/p SA teef and you face ranger, what do you think hes gonna switch to, what annoys you the most? Ofc its gonna be sic'em). And if you play the game long enough then you are able to play multiple builds on high level, so you use templates - once again, experience. Its all about who spent more time, is better mechanically and has more game knowledge, one way or another you can outplay enemy or at least make the fight closer to equal. 
Problem starts when instead of learning, you cry about somebody using his brain to make fight in his favour.

[Andy.5981]

Some fair replies to my post. I suppose a skilled player will wipe the floor with a mediocre players 1v1 or even 2 or 3 v 1 and probably will not make much use of a swap mechanism. Perhaps I was over thinking its use.

Ok many thanks.

[KrHome.1920]

18 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

Bit like me, but I have had opponents who clearly have altered their build/weapon set very quickly when they've fled and then returned to combat.

 

That's normal for thief players. They engage with Marauder D/P and get wrecked. They use Shadowstep. They switch to P/D trailblazer and get wrecked again. They use SB5. They switch to Deadeye (either perma immob or if the noob factor is a bit below 100% to power burst).

 

Quite the standard teef encounter in solo roaming.

 

topic:

I am using keybinds for ages now and they are a lot faster than the new button. Ich switch to full zerk when I enter a camp and switch back to my standard roaming build after speed-killing the guards.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

You could already bind the templates to hot keys which are instant, adding buttons doesn't make it any faster than instant, so why is it now an issue?

 

Other points to note, Anet made Deltaconnected (arcdps creator) add area and time restrictions on his template add on, which is funny that when Anet came out with their version, not only did they force them to drop their template addon for GW2, but they also didn't follow the same rules they made them follow. Not only that, but his version was free and unlimited in builds etc, while anets version is outrageously expensive for a single unlock that only works on ONE toon, for ONE build and it's not even account wide.

 

By the way, I pointed this out at release of the templates, why are people now having issues? Do people not remember all the classes (thief, DH, ranger etc) dropping traps or other utility and then swapping builds just before someone hit them? I remember people on DH swapping to full trap builds, dropping all of them on a sentry, then swapping to another build for self buffing when someone started to approach, then swap to a high burst build right before they hit the traps. Because even when swapping totally different builds and totally different utilities on your bar, the traps never disappeared, not only that, but the new utilities were not on CD, so it was like getting two sets of utility skills at the start of a fight.

 

I reported this and even sent in videos (I main DH) and it took them forever to fix, the only good thing about it is so many people are unaware of what can be done in this game or how to make use of utility that is available that most people never even noticed.

 

 

[Shroud.2307]

I've experienced someone dropping combat to swap builds a grand total of 5 times since templates were added, and I basically live in WvW.

My experiences may not be the standard to measure by, but my point is that I don't think this is a problem. 

[Infusion.7149]

In their initial preview of templates it was stated people would only be able to swap templates in their stronghold (uncontested keep or spawn point) while out of combat. They've never implemented that, now it is only out of combat.

[MedievalThings.5417]

I'd just be happy if certain classes would stop mounting up while conditions are still ticking away on them.

[Hackuuna.4085]

9 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

???
The hell youre talking about. First you said something about not all builds being able to go ooc, which I explained why it doesnt work like that. And now your argument is about predicting what build they're switching to, once again - thats your problem. If you play the game long enough then you know what build of certain class might counter you and because of experience you dont have to roll the dice (quick example, if you play d/p SA teef and you face ranger, what do you think hes gonna switch to, what annoys you the most? Ofc its gonna be sic'em). And if you play the game long enough then you are able to play multiple builds on high level, so you use templates - once again, experience. Its all about who spent more time, is better mechanically and has more game knowledge, one way or another you can outplay enemy or at least make the fight closer to equal. 
Problem starts when instead of learning, you cry about somebody using his brain to make fight in his favour.

I'm coming from the perspective of a mesmer where each of core, chrono, and mirage have trailblazer or power variants. Some classes meta builds are effective no matter what I choose, but some classes will be hard countered depending on what they think I'm swapping to.

 

Some classes have an abundance of mobility and can actively deny OOC unless their opponents have access to stealth or their surroundings make it impossible. It's also not easy to deny some classes OOC. None of these are contentious statements.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I agree with this:

 

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In their initial preview of templates it was stated people would only be able to swap templates in their stronghold (uncontested keep or spawn point) while out of combat. They've never implemented that, now it is only out of combat.

 

They should really limit build swapping to inside structures only. 

 

I was baffled when I found out you can do it anywhere as long as you aren't in combat--too many variables there to balance around.  

[Widmo.3186]

13 hours ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

I'm coming from the perspective of a mesmer where each of core, chrono, and mirage have trailblazer or power variants. Some classes meta builds are effective no matter what I choose, but some classes will be hard countered depending on what they think I'm swapping to.

 

Some classes have an abundance of mobility and can actively deny OOC unless their opponents have access to stealth or their surroundings make it impossible. It's also not easy to deny some classes OOC. None of these are contentious statements.

And now 3rd argument. Are you reading at all what youre typing? You arent even trying to defend any of your statements, youre just going from one to another. Mesmer is one of the best classes that can safely ooc and switch builds, thanks to long enough stealth + blink + small ports such as phase retreat or jaunt. Its more than enough distance to get ooc. And you also have main build, just like all classes, that should win >75% matchups you meet on the battlefield. And I assure you, skilled person on his main spec during roaming will still win >90% of encounters, no matter if theyre in favour or not, no matter if they play warrior, teef or w/e. Also, thats why some classes are seen more often (eg. teef/mes/DH) than others, theyre just more mobile. Once again, if you play certain class for long enoug time then you know what build of certain class will be dangerous and before fight starts you adapt. Or even better, you look at freaking signets/food they have and by that you know what build they might be playing, e x p e r i e n c e.

T h a t s your p r o b l e m. If you wont switch templates then the other person wont as well, no? Then theres no problem with templates if none of fighting ppl use them. You dont go into field with build that is good only vs 20% of population, you go with the most versatile one or the most mobile one so you can adapt. Thats what sane people do, instead of crying about others properly using game mechanics.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Widmo.3186