The more nerfs to other professions you ask...the more nerfs your profession will receive

[Arheundel.6451]

I don't think that what I have described in the title is a concept well understood by the average player, really it should come as no surprise, the idea is really simple :  this is a MMO not a single player RPG with multiplayer where you are the sole hero , meaning that no player should go out there expecting to decimate opposition as he sees fit.

No matter how strong or skilled you think to be, or for how long you played this game and how much you invested in it, there will be always better players than you on the same or different profession and players at large should stop asking to remove entire aspects of another class so that they can win against it at their personal skill level....that's not asking for balance, that's being petty and egotistical.

 

I asked for nerfs myself on different professions, including the ones I play but not once I asked to remove entire aspects of a professions, to remove what makes a profession challenging/annoying to face. I asked to nerf Lich Form and Reaper's onslaught.....not to nerf/remove shroud/damage/sustain on necro, I asked to nerf torment...not to delete condi herald, I asked to nerf holographic wave...not to remove all sources of dmg and sustain from holo etc etc etc . I always asked for specific trait/skill changes...never asked to remove an entire class from the competitive spectrum, expecting to walk all over anybody playing that specific class.

 

I am not a saint though and won't pretend to be one, if tomorrow they'd remove necro or thief or another class from the game but my own, for certain I wouldn't "cry" about it but......the whole game would be that much worst for me. I have nothing to gain from seeing other professions being nerfed to the ground and stop them from being a challenge for me because if there is no easily accessible counterplay then a class is deemed broken and rightly so, and in the end that same professions would end up receiving more nerfs than what other received.

 

So....stop and think for a moment, the less direct counterplay to your class there is...the more nerfs it will receive in the end, the more you try to send other professions on the chopping board and the sooner yours will be on it

Edited July 25, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Believe me, some of us have been saying the same thing for many years now. There’s even Mathematics that back this up, but people don’t want to acknowledge it and would rather see the game destroyed as a consequence of these actions. 
 

I usto ask for selfish nerfs maybe like 5 or 6 years ago too, and it took a moment of clarity to understand that there must have been a larger picture for this idea of balance…luckily enough I had a background in physics in order to understand its connection to diversity…That they are both aspects of the same mechanism.

 

The problem I want to highlight is that, the game is much more connected then people realize. That for example like you point out, nerfing torment alone doesn’t just nerf the one build that was abusing it…but it effects the entire chain of builds that use it and the chain of builds that are dependent on those builds and by effecting these chains, alters the hierarchy on which the meta is built upon…nerf one little thing in the game and it can cascade into a completely new ecosystem of builds.
 

I spent a very long time thinking about this problem…if both nerfs and buffs don’t work to provide meaningful change then what does?

 

In my view, there is no way around it. Balance changes simply do not work in any meaningful sense. Yes you can change numbers up or down but there will always be a meta hierarchy and never “true balance.” That true balance is merely a linear idealization of a world that doesn’t exist and we see that around us all the time. That, optimization is a fundamentally universal law that we can’t escape so long as we exist in a system where things are different and have different properties.

 

It sounds crazy...but when you think about it long enough it's really not that crazy. I think if people gave the subject some thought, they would arrive at similar conclusions....Like asking the question: What would a perfectly balanced game of gw2 look like? 

Edited July 25, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I'm 300% fine with that though.
My main class Elementalist obtained 2 borderline cheap af so called "e-speces" that are broken in more than one way, I'm completely fine with them being nerfed or even deleted since they're poorly made as heck and in certain scenarios even too strong with their bs mechanics making it disgusting to fight against.
Nerf anything and everything if it's broken or unbalanced in anyway or even delete and fully rework if it's failure from the design level (/wave@ Firebrand, Mirage, Chronomancer, Scourge and others).
There wouldn't be a need for heavy nerfs or even nukes if A-net had properly tested things before releasing first HoT e-speces, but here we are with poorly designed elite specialization mechanic that tries to push "newplaystyle" for a whole class with mere 1 traitline, impossible to do.

[Liewec.2896]

i'd honestly be happy if they reverted every nerf thats ever been done.

bunker builds would be super bunkery, burst builds would be super bursty and the build diversity would increase sevenfold!

[Shao.7236]

If nerfs were done properly, we wouldn't have this discussion. Because I am happy with how my class gets changed until it doesn't make sense. That includes changing things that mean nothing compared the actual issue that is so scary to tweak that they're not going around tweaking until it's already too late because nothing that didn't need to get changed gets reverted, only stacking bad decisions after bad decisions.

 

For example, for about year and half I said change Infuse Light, it's carrying Condi Rev because too many ticks, instead Resistance gets dumped on then we have players abusing Resistance Rune which was broken by itself which changed nothing in the end. It was agree'd by the majority that the ICD needed to change, took forever. Then hilariously, we players who aren't the one working at Anet get screwed again by Resistance changes that complete renders an entire static set of utility useless as poison has now no counters and gets lazily fixed by a solution that only does 10% to allievate the real problem. (Hello Anet, Dark Aura is underused, Pain Absorption is a "team" skill and Resolution isn't shared.)

 

That's just one thing among the rest.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Kuma.1503]

Gw2 is a complex game. There are so many different build combinations one could possibly come up with, and an even greater number of matchups that could arise as these builds are pitted up against each other. 

 

I doubt even "good" players can give you the run down of how to play most 1v1 matchups... In large part because there's very little community discussion about how these matchups should be played. What is the optimal way to approach a side node weaver as a spellbreaker? How does that change when the opposing team has a thief and herald. What cooldowns should you hold to in the case of a +1? What is the best time to disengage? When should you be most aggressive. How does that change depending on the build the weaver is running?

 

Very often people skip over this and just assume that if they lost that 1v1 or consistently lose that 1v1 that means the class is broken and needs to be nerfed. It could be that they're just not respecting primordial stance enough and not playing aggressive enough when it's down. If they consistently misplay the same way each and every time, it's going to lead to an unfavorable win percentage versus that build.

 

It's at that point where you can either re-evaluate your game plan... Or complain and hope it gets nerfed. 

 

When these discussions about nerfs are brought up, it would be nice if these sorts of questions were at least considered  when delegating where nerfs should be dished out. 

 

Instead what we get is hyperbole, misinformation, and when some tries to ask these sorts of questions.

"Hey if burning is killing you, maybe kite out primordial stance"? 

 

...We often get deflections. Something to the effect of "It was played in MAT therefore it is broken." or "Stop denying your main class/build is broken" (Bonus points if the person doesn't actually main that class).

 

It's no surprise we've ended up where we are. 300 second cooldowns. Weapons smiter's booned out of existance. A perpetually shrinking pool of amulets... Where do we go from here?

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

16 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Gw2 is a complex game. There are so many different build combinations one could possibly come up with, and an even greater number of matchups that could arise as these builds are pitted up against each other. 

 

I doubt even "good" players can give you the run down of how to play most 1v1 matchups... In large part because there's very little community discussion about how these matchups should be played. What is the optimal way to approach a side node weaver as a spellbreaker? How does that change when the opposing team has a thief and herald. What cooldowns should you hold to in the case of a +1? What is the best time to disengage? When should you be most aggressive. How does that change depending on the build the weaver is running?

 

Very often people skip over this and just assume that if they lost that 1v1 or consistently lose that 1v1 that means the class is broken and needs to be nerfed. It could be that they're just not respecting primordial stance enough and not playing aggressive enough when it's down. If they consistently misplay the same way each and every time, it's going to lead to an unfavorable win percentage versus that build.

 

It's at that point where you can either re-evaluate your game plan... Or complain and hope it gets nerfed. 

 

When these discussions about nerfs are brought up, it would be nice if these sorts of questions were at least considered  when delegating where nerfs should be dished out. 

 

Instead what we get is hyperbole, misinformation, and when some tries to ask these sorts of questions.

"Hey if burning is killing you, maybe kite out primordial stance"? 

 

...We often get deflections. Something to the effect of "It was played in MAT therefore it is broken." or "Stop denying your main class/build is broken" (Bonus points if the person doesn't actually main that class).

 

It's no surprise we've ended up where we are. 300 second cooldowns. Weapons smiter's booned out of existance. A perpetually shrinking pool of amulets... Where do we go from here?

 

 

I blame the devs!  They should be competent enough to recognize legitimate feedback from useless banter ....if they can't do that, who put them there?

[wondermuffin.9680]

Not true! I never asked for nerfs for any class (because it was relatively balanced once!), and they butchered warrior repeatedly. 😠

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I blame the devs!  They should be competent enough to recognize legitimate feedback from useless banter ....if they can't do that, who put them there?

 

I think it's best to at least keep a rational mind here. Throwing up the pitchforks is how this all started. You are right that the developers should be able to discern legitimate feedback from mindless complaining. In the same token, I also think that there is a fundamental level of ignorance about balance as an actual part of physics. Real world Engineers and Programmers don't necessarily need a background in physics in order to make programs and games...but I think if they did they would be able to assess different balance strategies with that knowledge, and make better decisions. 

 

In turn, I think players should also have that knowledge, so that the developers don't to have to sift through terrible feedback.

 

I like to say this often, but being good at the game, and knowing what the skills do is often not "enough" knowledge about game design...at least not enough to make a good suggestion on how to change them. There is merit in understanding how the game is played at a certain level of combat...and that's fine. But it's just not enough...People need backgrounds in these still emerging fields to understand exactly WHAT will happen when people make changes to a highly complex system, so that you get meaningful change and not meaningless change.

 

In other words, Being a professional athlete, doesn't mean you should dictate to the NBA on how the Basketball should be played. They have committees, judges, referees and organizations in place as part of the games design, to keep the game fair. Rules that are invented, are usually by these people, as a consequence of athletes trying to exploit the game. The relationship between the gamer and the game being played is thus not mutual...it borders between parasitic and competitive. Why would it be any different for Guild Wars 2?

 

 

[Spartacus.3192]

i realized a long time ago that rather than asking for nerfs its better to just learn other classes and try and get decent/good at a few of them. This way when your current main gets the nerf bat because of all the forum crying you can just switch to one of your other classes. 

 

I generally switch between Warrior, Revenant, Engineer, Guardian. Usually one of these classes is doing well relative to others (at my personal skill level)

 

Plus it keeps the game interesting and fresh to switch up your "main" every so often. 

[Arheundel.6451]

9 minutes ago, Spartacus.3192 said:

i realized a long time ago that rather than asking for nerfs its better to just learn other classes and try and get decent/good at a few of them. This way when your current main gets the nerf bat because of all the forum crying you can just switch to one of your other classes. 

 

I generally switch between Warrior, Revenant, Engineer, Guardian. Usually one of these classes is doing well relative to others (at my personal skill level)

 

Plus it keeps the game interesting and fresh to switch up your "main" every so often. 

I would have been gone ages ago if I would have limited myself to ele, you are indeed correct, training yourself with other professions is a better alternative than wasting time trying to argue with a biased audience. Thanks to that realization I started to play ranger, guardian and warrior......I just play ele for those 3-4 months when it is viable once every few years, between a huge nerf phase and another.

 

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Bad class design cant be fixed with nerfs or buffs. The issues with pvp are never going to go away.

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I think it's best to at least keep a rational mind here. Throwing up the pitchforks is how this all started. You are right that the developers should be able to discern legitimate feedback from mindless complaining. In the same token, I also think that there is a fundamental level of ignorance about balance as an actual part of physics. Real world Engineers and Programmers don't necessarily need a background in physics in order to make programs and games...but I think if they did they would be able to assess different balance strategies with that knowledge, and make better decisions. 

 

In turn, I think players should also have that knowledge, so that the developers don't to have to sift through terrible feedback.

 

I like to say this often, but being good at the game, and knowing what the skills do is often not "enough" knowledge about game design...at least not enough to make a good suggestion on how to change them. There is merit in understanding how the game is played at a certain level of combat...and that's fine. But it's just not enough...People need backgrounds in these still emerging fields to understand exactly WHAT will happen when people make changes to a highly complex system, so that you get meaningful change and not meaningless change.

 

In other words, Being a professional athlete, doesn't mean you should dictate to the NBA on how the Basketball should be played. They have committees, judges, referees and organizations in place as part of the games design, to keep the game fair. Rules that are invented, are usually by these people, as a consequence of athletes trying to exploit the game. The relationship between the gamer and the game being played is thus not mutual...it borders between parasitic and competitive. Why would it be any different for Guild Wars 2?

 

 

It's hard to keep a rationale mind when we know, the devs in charge of balance take suggestions from individuals with vested interests in the game , how else could we explain the current state of the game?

 

1) Damage and sustain has not been removed gamewide...only specific professions got hit extremely hard to remove them from the game in the best interests of specific individuals. Am I exaggerating? Look at this: 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emergency_Elixir

VS

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Shielding

 

Same function, but apparently one deserved to be nuked from orbit while the other was left alone....coincidence?....I think not, I really thought we were supposed to get away from passive traits...

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stone

 

What about this one then? And there are so many other "fallacies" with this company "logic" , the bias is so blatant and obvious, they removed stability from this trait : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Strikes .....too much stability uptime apparently....meanwhile we have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

 

It's hard to maintain a rational mind when there is so much crap going on behind the scene...and for record I am not asking for nerfs, I am asking for fairness

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Bad class design cant be fixed with nerfs or buffs. The issues with pvp are never going to go away.

Pretty much this....

[Quadox.7834]

2 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's hard to keep a rationale mind when we know, the devs in charge of balance take suggestions from individuals with vested interests in the game , how else could we explain the current state of the game?

 

1) Damage and sustain has not been removed gamewide...only specific professions got hit extremely hard to remove them from the game in the best interests of specific individuals. Am I exaggerating? Look at this: 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emergency_Elixir

VS

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Shielding

 

Same function, but apparently one deserved to be nuked from orbit while the other was left alone....coincidence?....I think not, I really thought we were supposed to get away from passive traits...

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stone

 

What about this one then? And there are so many other "fallacies" with this company "logic" , the bias is so blatant and obvious, they removed stability from this trait : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Strikes .....too much stability uptime apparently....meanwhile we have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

 

It's hard to maintain a rational mind when there is so much crap going on behind the scene...and for record I am not asking for nerfs, I am asking for fairness

Now look at conjured weapons; the damage wasnt nerfed at all. Earth shield can do 8k+ autoattack damage.

[Kuma.1503]

13 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's hard to keep a rationale mind when we know, the devs in charge of balance take suggestions from individuals with vested interests in the game , how else could we explain the current state of the game?

 

1) Damage and sustain has not been removed gamewide...only specific professions got hit extremely hard to remove them from the game in the best interests of specific individuals. Am I exaggerating? Look at this: 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emergency_Elixir

VS

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Shielding

 

Same function, but apparently one deserved to be nuked from orbit while the other was left alone....coincidence?....I think not, I really thought we were supposed to get away from passive traits...

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versed_in_Stone

 

What about this one then? And there are so many other "fallacies" with this company "logic" , the bias is so blatant and obvious, they removed stability from this trait : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Strikes .....too much stability uptime apparently....meanwhile we have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juggernaut

 

It's hard to maintain a rational mind when there is so much crap going on behind the scene...and for record I am not asking for nerfs, I am asking for fairness

 

Lets not forget nerfing Weaver's damage in PvE when damage is all they have. 

 

Meanwhile, Firebrand doesn't have enough build diversity never mind that it is top tier in every role. So we me made sure to buff the virtues traitline.. because why should a glass canon deal more dps in a realistic encounter than a utility dps. 

 

It's no secret that the devs are biased against ele. I would have quit myself if I hadn't swapped my main to engi. Luckily the piano gameplay I'd come to enjoy is still alive and well within this profession, and in many ways I came to like it more, but that doesn't make me any less upset at how Anet treats elementalist in general. 

 

To this day, ele is still technically my most played class in PvP despite swapping mains a year ago. I hold onto some semblance of hope that they'll get a thorough look over in EoD, but knowing Anet's track record I'm not going to hold my breath on that. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Downstate.4697]

I think the balance they do is generally good, but the updates are so infrequent that the meta goes stale and people get frustrated.

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think the balance they do is generally good, but the updates are so infrequent that the meta goes stale and people get frustrated.

You must be trolling..or you don't play pvp/wvw, we have builds where people press all buttons while running in circle..and you call it..."generally good balance" ..lol

Edited July 26, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Downstate.4697]

3 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You must be trolling..or you don't play pvp/wvw, we have builds where people press all buttons while running in circle..and you call it..."generally good balance" ..lol

Thats not balance. Thats mechanics.

[Vinny.7260]

On 7/25/2021 at 1:29 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm 300% fine with that though.
My main class Elementalist obtained 2 borderline cheap af so called "e-speces" that are broken in more than one way, I'm completely fine with them being nerfed or even deleted since they're poorly made as heck and in certain scenarios even too strong with their bs mechanics making it disgusting to fight against.
Nerf anything and everything if it's broken or unbalanced in anyway or even delete and fully rework if it's failure from the design level (/wave@ Firebrand, Mirage, Chronomancer, Scourge and others).
There wouldn't be a need for heavy nerfs or even nukes if A-net had properly tested things before releasing first HoT e-speces, but here we are with poorly designed elite specialization mechanic that tries to push "newplaystyle" for a whole class with mere 1 traitline, impossible to do.

Tempest gives me depression as an Elementalist main. You can't really change how it plays. There's just one way. 

 

Weaver is a gimmicky mess/just a better Elementalist. 

 

They both need remade sooooo badly. They're both horrible to play against too. There's no excitement factor when you're up against a Tempest because they're stuck to using Earth/Water. You don't have fun with Weaver because they're stuck stacking Barriers/Being a PBAoE condi bomber. 

 

Tempest shouldn't have such fundamental traits as options, make the fundamental traits baseline/part of the minors. Weaver needs its skills rebalanced/needs CORE to get love so it isn't REQUIRED to be so disgustingly gimmicky to survive. 

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Now look at conjured weapons; the damage wasnt nerfed at all. Earth shield can do 8k+ autoattack damage.

Shhhh... Don't let them know that ANet didn't touch the conjured weapon coefs in the feb 2020 patch...

Edited July 26, 2021 by Dadnir.5038