What do you think about dagger off hand?

[Khalisto.5780]

This weapon right now seems super meme

 

You have a couple fun skills like ride the lightning and aoe cc

 

The only really useful skill is fire 5 burst

 

Compared to focus everything seems lackluster

 

Even the blast value is meh, cuz earth 5 takes too long to blast twice

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Khalisto.5780

[Downstate.4697]

Not good anymore.

Fire grab is just burning speed but harder to hit and conditional. Air 5 delay ruins alot of burst set up. Water has always been lackluster but its fine. Earth is still good, but in general there are more ranged enemies than pre-HoT making earth 5 not enjoyable and projectile denial too valuable to pass up.

 

 

 

 

[fuzzyp.6295]

Off hand dagger is in a pretty unfortunate place. It's definitely lost some of the power it once had, but due to the fact that Elementalist only has two off hand weapons, its still considered 'meta' for lot of dps builds... But I think it should be telling of its status that focus is still preferred for most meta condition based builds despite not having much actually damaging dealing condis on it compared to off dagger.

 

As I don't play much PvE high end or end game, I won't really comment anymore in that regard. But as a PvP and WvW player who loved to run off hand dagger, there is just simply no reason to run it anymore unless you are seriously nostalgic for Ride the Lightening.

 

Since access to fury has been nerfed across the Elementalist, Fire Grab is no longer a lethal finishing move. Sure, if you hit a burning opponent with fury and crit with a decent power spread you can still deal a fat 8k hit, but its no longer anywhere near as reliable as it once was. Instead, you'll be more likely seeing 2-3k hits, which for a finisher is pretty patheic. Thats not even to talk about the wonky cone hit box which should probably be increased from 300 to 400 range to bring it in line with the other cone skills. In my opinion, one change I would do is reduce the overall damage this skill does but allow it to always crit when striking a burning opponent.

 

Ring of Fire is a joke. After the 2015 nerfs it hasn't been anything more than just a fire field, only marginally better than Flamewall.  I think the burning tics when passing through the ring need a massive buff. Make it a dangerous choice to pass through the ring, forcing opponents to either combat the elementlists at a closer range (helping to counter a weakness of the Ele) or waste a skill to get out safely.

 

Water is pretty good, although I think Frost Aura in general should be looked at.

For Air, RtL is actually pretty decent. I think the on hit property works pretty well with what Anet wants this skill to do. Updraft, however, is another story. The stealth nerf it received was down right disrespectful and did nothing to address any problems the Elementalist had. All it did was serve to mess up the bread and butter combos of D/D eles that we've had for years and nerf daggers ability to preform on demand.

 

Earthquake is fine, but we need to remove the 'massive damage' tool tip. But Churring Earth, unless you have quickness, its still a joke. You're not hitting anyone with it, and even if you use your LF to hit with it, the damage is still pretty solidly meh for all the charge up. You're only going to be dealing decent damage against the most glassy of opponents since the majority of the damage of that skill is locked behind the Bleeds. Reduce the bleeding and increase base power damage, make it unblockable, cut down its cast time, change it into pulsing AoE cripple/immob, add stability to the cast... I don't care, but do something with it because in its current state I never have any reason to ever use it unless I want to leave myself open for bursts. (Not suggesting do all those things btw haha)

 

TL;DR: I miss off hand dagger but in its current state, at least in PvP/WvW, Elementalists who run it are gimping themselves. The damage skills aren't reliable in hitting their targets and little bit of mobility it offers is NOT worth the trade off of the survivability of focus.

 

EDIT: Fixed spelling.

Edited July 30, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Jski.6180]

Its oddly a good support wepon now with transmutation frost aura.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

3 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

make it unblockable

+1 for unblockable.

 

All of our rooting-cast skills should have something to compensate and i think unblockable could help with that.

[fuzzyp.6295]

37 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its oddly a good support wepon now with transmutation frost aura.

 

But is it though? If you're taking Smothering Auras, Frost Aura now offers 1 cleanse on apply and 2 cleanses when transmuted. The only real benefit you can get is additional cleanse if you have Cleansing Water for a total of 4 conditions cleared. However if you use Fire Aura on focus, you still get the first three condition cleanses when using normal Fire Aura, in additional to another three cleanses anytime you attune to Fire (after the 10 second CD of transmute fire) for a total of 6. Fire Aura is also on a shorter cool down than Frost (25 seconds to 30 seconds) and since you're not forced to take Cleansing Wave for condi clears, you can instead take Powerful Aura and spread around your auras to offer your group stronger boons like protection, which I would take over the 10% reduction Frost Aura offers anyday.

 

Cleansing Wave is arguably better at support than Frost Aura transmute since it heals for more than both Warhorn skills and cleanses 2 conditions. Although I'd still argue having two healing skills means you'll still have more healing... and between Overload Water, Wash Away the Pain and Smothering Auras those two condi cleanses aren't really much of a reason to pick dagger instead.

Edited July 30, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295
spelling

[Jski.6180]

36 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

 

But is it though? If you're taking Smothering Auras, Frost Aura now offers 1 cleanse on apply and 2 cleanses when transmuted. The only real benefit you can get is additional cleanse if you have Cleansing Water for a total of 4 conditions cleared. However if you use Fire Aura on focus, you still get the first three condition cleanses when using normal Fire Aura, in additional to another three cleanses anytime you attune to Fire (after the 10 second CD of transmute fire) for a total of 6. Fire Aura is also on a shorter cool down than Frost (25 seconds to 30 seconds) and since you're not forced to take Cleansing Wave for condi clears, you can instead take Powerful Aura and spread around your auras to offer your group stronger boons like protection, which I would take over the 10% reduction Frost Aura offers anyday.

 

Cleansing Wave is arguably better at support than Frost Aura transmute since it heals for more than both Warhorn skills and cleanses 2 conditions. Although I'd still argue having two healing skills means you'll still have more healing... and between Overload Water, Wash Away the Pain and Smothering Auras those two condi cleanses aren't really much of a reason to pick dagger instead.

 

The clear is nice but the healing is kind of nice. Even the reg on it (all be it never going to be that big of a factor as every thing gives reg) is nice. 8 sec cd when traits in water makes for another burst heal for your group and even as a cele build a good added heal for solo play.

 

For sure anet needs to add in more transmutation aura traits but the transmutation has good effects.

 

In no way i am saying off hand dagger is in a good places and i am more pointing out how messed up anet balance is that a once an aggressive wepon now is more of an support wepon. Please keep that in mind.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Swagg.9236]

Like I've said a million times for everything else about this game:  every class in GW2 has too many weapons (even Ele and Engineer at this point).  It would make far more sense to just make one or two good weapons with a lot of flexibility and movement directed toward a particular role rather than have a big pile of throwaway bloat exist in shambles like it does now.

[Shao.7236]

Some cooldowns are too high, effects most notably water and air are lackluster. There's no projectile denial in utility therefor dagger is unable to compensate in anyway while focus and staff have other means, mostly Focus has 2 projectile hate skills, cleansing is also better.

 

Some dagger skills are in need of a buff/change.

[BigEvs.6971]

On 7/29/2021 at 5:08 PM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Not good anymore.

Fire grab is just burning speed but harder to hit and conditional. Air 5 delay ruins alot of burst set up. Water has always been lackluster but its fine. Earth is still good, but in general there are more ranged enemies than pre-HoT making earth 5 not enjoyable and projectile denial too valuable to pass up.

 

 

 

Yeah I have to emphatically second the need for another pass on fire grab. Even if all they did was buff the conditional damage and make the non-burning damage even worse.

Edited August 3, 2021 by BigEvs.6971

[Sunshine.5014]

1 hour ago, BigEvs.6971 said:

Yeah I have to emphatically second the need for another pass on fire grab. Even if all they did was buff the conditional damage and make the non-burning damage even worse.

 

+1, Fire Grab is horrible at hitting stuff that's not standing still if you have any network delay. They should increase the AoE a bit. It's not even gonna be OP, just less frustrating to use.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I can't play any other offhand 🤷‍♀️

Focus severely lacks damage and mobility and doesn't combo well... and i dislike the way it's so mundanely held for a magical artifact. Warhorn.. no mobility, and i hate the skins, sounds and animations when blowing.

 

And RTL is just too epic.

 

Edit: obviously i value mobility a lot... but that's because i'm always being chased 🤷‍♀️

Edited August 3, 2021 by MyPuppy.8970

[Stallic.2397]

RTL should get it's evade back- More Survivability for a really vulnerable class 

Updraft needs a radius of 240- Force the dodge on your opponent 

Earthquake provides 3 sec of stab for each opponent hit. To combo with Earth 5

Churning Earth- Deal more damage to bleeding foes. Just like fire grab does

Fire Grab- Gain Fury for each foe struck

Frost Aura- Reduced to 25 sec

Cleansing Wave- Remove 3 Condi instead of 2. This makes it compete with Magnetic Wave on Focus. It's current state is just a joke in comparison. 

[fuzzyp.6295]

  

2 minutes ago, Stallic.2397 said:

RTL should get it's evade back- More Survivability for a really vulnerable class 

Updraft needs a radius of 240- Force the dodge on your opponent 

Earthquake provides 3 sec of stab for each opponent hit. To combo with Earth 5

Churning Earth- Deal more damage to bleeding foes. Just like fire grab does

Fire Grab- Gain Fury for each foe struck

Frost Aura- Reduced to 25 sec

Cleansing Wave- Remove 3 Condi instead of 2. This makes it compete with Magnetic Wave on Focus. It's current state is just a joke in comparison. 

 

As far as I remember, RtL has never had an evade attached to it, its always been just given damage. If it did receive an evade, it would probably need to lose a bunch of its damage and on hit conditional, which would be icky.  Also, wouldn't you say Cleansing Wave already competes pretty nicely with Magentic Wave considering it cleanses 2 condis and heals you whereas Magentic Wave just cures condis and offers a situational effect (reflect)? Seems like a decent trade off to me.

 

Otherwise, +1 to great suggestions.

[Stallic.2397]

7 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

  

 

As far as I remember, RtL has never had an evade attached to it, its always been just given damage. If it did receive an evade, it would probably need to lose a bunch of its damage and on hit conditional, which would be icky.  Also, wouldn't you say Cleansing Wave already competes pretty nicely with Magentic Wave considering it cleanses 2 condis and heals you whereas Magentic Wave just cures condis and offers a situational effect (reflect)? Seems like a decent trade off to me.

 

Otherwise, +1 to great suggestions.

Ty, and You're right. I can't find it in the wiki where RTL had an evade, but I was almost certain it did. Anyway, if it did have an evade, the CD reduction would have to be removed. But that's still a better buff. Right now RTL forces the ele to use it conditionally as an engagement skill. As an escape, the ele can still be CC'd, damaged and killed. With an evade, and the loss of CD reduction, you can still use it as an engage, or an escape. Just less often. But the skill has multi use then.

 

Reflects has a stronger use in the meta than a weak heal. At least in Pvp, the heal just isn't useful.  

 

 

[MyPuppy.8970]

The heal from cleansing wave is anecdotal at most if you don't slot healing power, tho... it's balanced around the fact that it's AoE, but why a support skill on a purely offensive and selfish weapon... I'd rather have a self healing with more condi-clear, or more self base healing with the current two cleanses.

 

Churning earth, i could see an immobilize if foes are hit.

[keykey.9182]

Hii , I have been playing weaver(damage)/tempest (healer) since I returned to game a month ago and ele has become my fav class to play by far. My  next opinion goes only for PvE tough.

 

Dagger off-hand is really bad.

Out of 8 skills only 1 provides you with CC (4 Earth)  +  You need to be almost at meele range miss that skill, and you're out of CC , the other 7 skills are not even worth mentioning in terms of utility or damage.

 

Focus:

You have a 3 sec stun ( Air 5), and a 2 sec daze (Water 5) both of these have very good range and are more than enough to break the blue bar below the mob HP. You also have Chilled to deal with those pesky fast mobs (Water 4) ,

You have Anti-ranged defensives ( Earth 4 , Air 4) + an Anti-all defensive (similar to pally bubble from WoW) Earth 5.

Fire 5 is good for gaining Power Boon.

 

As a Weaver I usally go Sword/Focus its a really versatile combination you even gain 2 more CC skills if using sword.

Earth+Air 3 (or viceversa) , Air+Any 2.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by keykey.9182

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I love Dagger offhand.  Sure base number and coef got cut with axe and that's is the issue.

For example the heals don't scale good with healing power

The churning earth damage is rarely worth it considering cast-time + root/channel + the fact earthen rush base immob is only 2sec, or earthquake stun only 2sec so people can dodge or just daze you. Most of the time you just want the skill to frighten melee classes and temporize, but you better want dual skills, AA, fire grabe etc to do damage.

 

...but playing d/d weaver with evasive arcana feels so good. 

Skills design is good; short cast-time, relatively short CD; fire field, 2 blast skills, a gap-closer/kite skill, 2 to 3 cleanse, healing ...

 

Of course it could be better; obviously. But I don't think f it's worse than focus or any other offhand weapons for others classes.

[Junkpile.7439]

Bad weapon, but only reason to play ele. 

[HowlKamui.5120]

I miss roaming with d/d ele 😞. Still doable now, but it lacks good defensive and offensive options. The only godsend is the disengage with air 4. Air, Earth, and Fire 5's are all so janky to use, while not being that rewarding even if it lands.

It was over-nerfed years ago and hasn't recovered at all. Much better on a weaver than on a tempest though. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376

[Shao.7236]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:48 AM, Sunshine.5014 said:

 

+1, Fire Grab is horrible at hitting stuff that's not standing still if you have any network delay. They should increase the AoE a bit. It's not even gonna be OP, just less frustrating to use.

I want to highlight that the skill can actually whiff, like there's a sweet spot to hit otherwise it barely scratches.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

I think the damage + hitbox on Fire Grab could be increased and Ring of Fire could Burn more. But everything else feels really ok.

 

Updraft is not instant, but at least it has an Evade frame, and overall the launch is not THAT hard to hit and IMO the delay actually makes it easier to combo with Burning Speed when the launch lands . I agree that it's easier to dodge the stun in PVP modes, but in PVE is not bad at all.

 

Ride the Lightning is awesome mobility, and if you hit something the cooldown is halved, which helps with combos.

 

Cleansing Wave is honestly my favorite Healing weapon skill, it's fast so you can use it on demand, the radius is nice, it cleanses 2 conditions and the healing is not bad.

 

Frost Aura is really nice to have on Aura builds and the transmute is also an extra AOE cleansing if you trait either Smoothing Auras or Cleansing Waters.

 

Earthquake serves it's purpose as an AoE knockdown, and is very realiable in PVE environment (PVP wise it's good in outnumbered fights and against Pets, Clones and Minions). Disables are very important in arcane boon generation and Lightning Rod builds, so i don't mind the "Massive Damage" tool tip much.

 

The only thing that I feel kinda off about Churning Earth is the telegraph+vulnerability while casting (which require either stability or quickness to be more reliable), thus why I agreed on making it Unblockable. But this skill still pressures A LOT when it Hits, especially against multiple opponents. The 12 stacks of bleeding + Cripple + 3.5 power coefficient (2.5 in pvp) are no joke. It's a nice AOE cleave, it just requires the right timing to use (and it probably feels best in Hybrid Builds).

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Fire, air, and earth 5 all have the same basic problem: you can't land them against moving targets.  This is GW2, right? How is this acceptable class design?

 

Out of all the skills on this weapon, only RtL feels any good.  Can we do better than this?  Power builds have no good options right now for offhands.

[Wyrdern.4092]

I swear that updraft got changed again because it feels a bit less jank than after the last time it got changed to have a delay. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Fire grab does massive damage in WvW. Still one of higher base power and coef on Elem skills in pvp/wvw.

 

Issue ; no elem/weaver can play glass-cannon anymore or they better want focus for extra sustain and control. So yes, obviously when you play with  celestial mix, runes of durability, antitoxin etc, fire grab does zero.

But take your zerg staff weaver equipment, leave staff and put scepter+dagger + unravel; use  ring of fire + phoenix thing + fire grab; you kill 3 minstrel FB.

 

In pvp it's an another issue; you can't abuse gimmicks and bonus stats like food, bloodlust, ascended/infusions etc; so every skills are too low in their damage curve to be worth be glass.

 

I don't think this skill, and others big hit skills are really a failure in design. It's just overall elem can't  build enough arround power/ferocity and buffs stacking, comparatively to others. Or players don't want to do the try neither.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508