Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

8 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

My argument isn't against raiders, again. It's against raids. Originally, MMOs were defined as anything with a persistent world. The world is what made an MMO. There were games that put players together from lobbys, like Guild Wars 1 as an example but they weren't MMOs. You couldn't meet people in the open world, you met them in towns and outposts, partied up and as soon as you left the outpost, you were with the party you took with you. There was no one else there. The entire game was instanced.

WoW was an MMO not because of raids, but because of the open, persistent world. That's what originally definded MMOs. I came to MMOs from RPGs. Half of MMORPGs is the RPG part. But raids weren't like RPGs to me. They were more like stand alone bosses that were just there to be a block to get gear.  So you have a timer guy standing there saying 3,2,1 everyone duck.  Okay at 10% he's going to do the big swinging attack everyone dodge. This wasn't an RPG to me. And it wasn't even an MMO. Standing in your queue waiting to play with ten or twenty other guys may have been multiplayer...but it wasn't massive multiplayer.

 

WoW wasn't the first MMORPG, but it was the game that put MMORPGs on the map. It made a lot of money. Do you know what happens when games make a lot of money? Everyone copies them.  But the assumption that WoW made a lot of money because it focused on raids is not necessarily the case. People don't know why it made money, so they copied everything. SWToR is WoW in a Star Wars Universe with a Bioware story tacked on.  When I played Rift we called it WoW 2.0.  If you liked raids, all was well and good, since almost every game funneled you into them. But none of those games really focused on the open world, the very thing that defined what an MMO was, and my primary area of interest.

I don't have a thousand games to choose from, I have very very few MMOs that didn't have raids or didn't focus on raids. So I was thrilled when I played this game and it seemed to be more about the open world. This game gave me what I wanted. I could have any legendary weapon I wanted and I wasn't locked out of anything by not raiding. Cue HoT.  Suddenly raids were there, but they weren't only there. They were the only content besides PvP tournaments that we got for 9 months. Casuals could be forgiven for thinking the game had taken a turn to the hard core, what with HoT being as hard as it was. This was a mistake, it cost Anet a lot of casual players and they responded with POF which was a reaction to HOT not being well received, even though I liked it myself. The open world felt confusing and dangerous but it was still the open world.

When a reward that I'd never get was placed into raids, not just a skin but the only animated skin in the game, I was really annoyed. Not at raiders. At Anet because even though they never promised me no raids, I thought the devs were coming from the same place I was. Obviously I was mistaken.

 

Raiders only asked for what they wanted. They can't be blamed for raids being in the game or rewards being locked behind them.  But the devs who I thought understood why so many of us were so loyal to this game for so long, suddenly I wasn't so sure they understood me at all. And  I can assure you I'm not the only me out here.  How many of people who play like me there are here are anyone's guess, but one thing is certain.

There are probably more casual players playing this game than hard core raiders.

Oof where do I start.

Most, if not all MMOs had, in the past, encouraged and almost outright made solo play impossible.  There's only one MMO I can think of in the past that had solo play in mind and that was Runescape, Runescape 2, and Runescape 3. So I'm going to call you on your bullkitten right now and say that raids aren't your problem.  Raids never were you problem.  You don't like grouping with other players and being put into an instance.  They wouldn't have to be called "raids" they could be called "Strikes" or "DRM" or "Trial" or really, anything else.  Because all instanced content in this game, be it solo story or in a raid, pits you against a boss that you have to overcome to get farther, to progress either the story or raid or acquire a skin (Remember mastery achievements from season 3?  You had to do difficult tasks in story instances to get those).  And you're saying PvP and WvW armor doesn't animate when it quite clearly does in the preview and there's even a bigger, persistent glow on the chestpiece.  You're mad because skins you like are locked behind content you don't.  You're just like me with, then.  I don't like PvP in this game.  I think it's a bunch of toxic, garbage people who exist in there and wintrade. - Actually, I know it's that, I've been in there 150 times post HoT and saw the controversy of the top 10 players.  So I'm not interested at all in PvP, but I do enjoy the skins within it and would love to get it, but you don't see me or, really anyone else for that matter, going on the forums, on reddit, or even ingame, complaining about how PvP is too hard and demanding that the PvP armor be earned via afk in custom lobbies.

[Vayne.8563]

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Please stop. What WoW did was make MMORPGs more accessible. The vast majority of MMORPGs before WoW had tremendously difficult content (including but not limited to), far beyond ANYTHING in this game or any MMORPG of the last 15 years.

 

Most important: nearly all MMORPGs REQUIRED group play and even actively put hurdles in the way of players who tried to go at it alone.

 

You don't get to complain about 1 aspect of past MMORPGs and conveniently leave out most of the others. Fine, let's not call them raids. Let's not even make them instanced content. Let's do then make them as hard as past MMORPGs and MUDs then if we are to idolize what the before WoW times were.

 

Yet somehow when this was approached, the outrage was great among players because suddenly it wasn't possible to solo everything.

 

Past MMORPGs built communities via making it a requirement that players cooperate and interact. This shifted to raids and instanced content as the remainder of the game became more solo-able. What you are arguing for now is literally moving away even from that limited grouping requirement. Leaving this game type with a huge bunch of players who have no reason to interact or cooperate. The massive came from many players cooperating, not from all being in the same game.

The vast majority of MMOs before WoW weren't household names.  EQ never had near the population of WoW.  Not even close. Because WoW dumbed down the genre.  WoW raids started really hard but they ended up with a bunch of simple, tank and spank raids in the raid finder, because only a tiny percentage of people ever did the harder raids or even attempted them.

Raiding is not one aspect of most MMOs. As I said, I played Rift and I couldn't even finish the main questline without raiding. What's the use of that? Rift had an open world with dynamic events, but I hit max on planarite the open world currency after buying every single thing you could buy for it.  There was nothing left. 

The lead dev at Rift ended up apologizing to the more causal players who wanted open world stuff saying oh we didn't realize you guys wanted this casual stuff we thought we were making the best game for everyone, but we'll add this casual stuff, and they tried, but the whole game was designed around raids being the defacto end game. You can pretend raids don't dominate this game, but that's all it is. Pretending.

[Vayne.8563]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Oof where do I start.

Most, if not all MMOs had, in the past, encouraged and almost outright made solo play impossible.  There's only one MMO I can think of in the past that had solo play in mind and that was Runescape, Runescape 2, and Runescape 3. So I'm going to call you on your bullkitten right now and say that raids aren't your problem.  Raids never were you problem.  You don't like grouping with other players and being put into an instance.  They wouldn't have to be called "raids" they could be called "Strikes" or "DRM" or "Trial" or really, anything else.  Because all instanced content in this game, be it solo story or in a raid, pits you against a boss that you have to overcome to get farther, to progress either the story or raid or acquire a skin (Remember mastery achievements from season 3?  You had to do difficult tasks in story instances to get those).  And you're saying PvP and WvW armor doesn't animate when it quite clearly does in the preview and there's even a bigger, persistent glow on the chestpiece.  You're mad because skins you like are locked behind content you don't.  You're just like me with, then.  I don't like PvP in this game.  I think it's a bunch of toxic, garbage people who exist in there and wintrade. - Actually, I know it's that, I've been in there 150 times post HoT and saw the controversy of the top 10 players.  So I'm not interested at all in PvP, but I do enjoy the skins within it and would love to get it, but you don't see me or, really anyone else for that matter, going on the forums, on reddit, or even ingame, complaining about how PvP is too hard and demanding that the PvP armor be earned via afk in custom lobbies.

So why do I do dungeons and fractals if I don't like grouping or being put in an instance.  In fact, about 80% of my play time is played with other people and some of that is in instances.  You have misquoted me, misattributed me and just in general not listened to what I've said, making assumptions instead based on your own biases of anyone who doesn't like raids.  

 

Not much point in talking if you won't even read what I'm saying.

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The massive came from many players cooperating, not from all being in the same game.

That's actually incorrect, the massive part is associated with the large number of players on the same server.
This association goes back before MMORPG were a thing and it was just MMOG's, (Massively Multiplayer Online Games)

Cooperation as well as the large persistent world element are just norms within MMO design these days.
You can make make a game without either of those elements and still technically classify as an MMO.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

What do casuals need animating armor for?  Because it animates. Give me an ascended version of the skins and I'd have no problem with that. But if the only animating armor  in the game is a raid reward, that's flawed, considering how few people raid out of the populace.  Saying we should play content we don't enjoy that we didn't sign on for that didn't exist for the first 3.5 years the game existed is an opinion. That's all it is.

My opinion is different. Disenfranchise the casuals, you might as well close the doors. Anet learned that with HoT. That's why POF was what it was. It was an over-reaction to be sure. My guess is EoD will be somewhere between.

You want the skin, you do the content.

Repeat after me.

If you want the skin, you do the content.

Once more.

If you want the skin, you do the content.

Why is this hard for you to understand?  Would you complain if there was new strike armor that required you to do the new CMs, had as much effort as raids, but also animated?  Strikes are literally raids with one boss/encounter.  This singular reward put behind raids isn't disenfranchising the casuals.  That is a colossal joke and not even a good one.  You're not casual if you do T4s regularly.  Casuals are the people who don't bother with instanced content at all outside of story.  They come around for maybe an hour a day to chill out and relax.  These people wouldn't have a use for legendary armor.  I'm pretty sure - actually, no, I know for a fact that if a casual had full legendary armor, nothing about their playstyle, quality of life, etc, would change.

  

6 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So why do I do dungeons and fractals if I don't like grouping or being put in an instance.  In fact, about 80% of my play time is played with other people and some of that is in instances.  You have misquoted me, misattributed me and just in general not listened to what I've said, making assumptions instead based on your own biases of anyone who doesn't like raids.  

 

Not much point in talking if you won't even read what I'm saying.

Because you're inconsistent and hold onto this idea that GW2 raids are the same as WoW raids which is hilarious.  You don't like that raids are instanced, yet play instanced content.

I've already said my piece to you.  If you want the rewards, do the content.  Any new legendary-like armor that comes out won't be the Envoy armor you covet so much that it hurt you personally when ANet added them to raids.  Cya.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Yeah because a fair few people were advocating for any alternative route to legendary gear in PvE was pretending that raids aren't PvE and  denying any other content that they'd have to do outside of super casual content  they can afk.

Precisely - you felt so biased against the idea of legendary armor in other content, that you just had to go into this thread and "correct" the "wrong" way the others try to play the game. And try to disparage that other content by trying to pretend it's all just about being afk.

So, who's biased here?

 

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The vast majority of MMOs before WoW weren't household names.  EQ never had near the population of WoW.  Not even close. Because WoW dumbed down the genre.  WoW raids started really hard but they ended up with a bunch of simple, tank and spank raids in the raid finder, because only a tiny percentage of people ever did the harder raids or even attempted them.

The vast majority of MMORPGs, or MMOs, before WoW were niche, just as GW2 is now. Most of them have players even now playing those games. ALL of them were severely more difficult and had a far better player retention than more modern games, which exchanged the niche apeall from most of those games for the simple mechanic of "stuff" and more "stuff" to feed players collection addictions.

 

What you are doing is cherry picking aspects of past games and intentionally misrepresenting or omitting other aspects which made those games successful for their time trying to fit an agenda.

 

Quote

Raiding is not one aspect of most MMOs. As I said, I played Rift and I couldn't even finish the main questline without raiding. What's the use of that? Rift had an open world with dynamic events, but I hit max on planarite the open world currency after buying every single thing you could buy for it.  There was nothing left. 

 

Rift had far more severe issues than raiding. No one is advocating for a raid centric MMORPG. Now if you can make a successful claim that Rift would have lasted as long as it did WITHOUT raiding, you might be on to something (again ignoring the gaping other issues that game had).

Quote

The lead dev at Rift ended up apologizing to the more causal players who wanted open world stuff saying oh we didn't realize you guys wanted this casual stuff we thought we were making the best game for everyone, but we'll add this casual stuff, and they tried, but the whole game was designed around raids being the defacto end game. You can pretend raids don't dominate this game, but that's all it is. Pretending.

 

Raids do not dominate GW2. To even suggest that would betray a heavy bias. There is not a single metric which would support the suggestion that raids where ever anything beyond side content for this game.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

That's actually incorrect, the massive part is associated with the large number of players on the same server.
This association goes way back before MMORPG were a thing and it was just MMOG's, (Massively Multiplayer Online Games)

Cooperation as well as the large persistent world element are just norms within MMO design these days.
You can make make a game without either of those elements and still technically classify as an MMO.

 

Name a single game which was Massive and not a MMORPG pre say EQ or other first wave MMORPGs.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Precisely - you felt so biased against the idea of legendary armor in other content, that you just had to go into this thread and "correct" the "wrong" way the others try to play the game. And try to disparage that other content by trying to pretend it's all just about being afk.

So, who's biased here?

 

Did you hurt yourself with that stretch?

No, I saw people advocating for legendary armor that required less effort than what's currently available.  The skill of conquering raids, the persistence of PvP, or the ease of WvW.  You even admitted in a round-about way that you didn't want it to come from Strike CMs.  So, do tell me;

What would your requirements be for your version of "PvE" legendary armor.  I'm quite curious.

[Aeis.8519]

17 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The vast majority of MMOs before WoW weren't household names.  EQ never had near the population of WoW.  Not even close. Because WoW dumbed down the genre.  WoW raids started really hard but they ended up with a bunch of simple, tank and spank raids in the raid finder, because only a tiny percentage of people ever did the harder raids or even attempted them.

Raiding is not one aspect of most MMOs. As I said, I played Rift and I couldn't even finish the main questline without raiding. What's the use of that? Rift had an open world with dynamic events, but I hit max on planarite the open world currency after buying every single thing you could buy for it.  There was nothing left. 

The lead dev at Rift ended up apologizing to the more causal players who wanted open world stuff saying oh we didn't realize you guys wanted this casual stuff we thought we were making the best game for everyone, but we'll add this casual stuff, and they tried, but the whole game was designed around raids being the defacto end game. You can pretend raids don't dominate this game, but that's all it is. Pretending.

I'm really confused, here.  Most, if not all MMOs before WoW were just fine being Niche  little things and still have plenty of players be it on private servers or officially hosted.  WoW came along to generalize the experience, water it down and appeal to a broader audience.  Back then, a lot of people wanted to fight big bosses.  Atually, I was one of them too, I'll admit.  But when it comes to raids and that, ESO is doing fine releasing content for raiders (In there, they're called Trials) and dungeons, along with veteran modes which increase the difficulty with new mechanics or making existing ones more punishing if failed.  Old School Runescape has two raids that can be done with as few as one player or up to one hundred I believe.  I think the second has a limit, but I've never made it that far in that game.  Then lastly, Final Fantasy 14 regularly updates its instanced PvE content as well.  If raids were really this killer you're speaking of, there wouldn't be that many examples off the top of my head that I could list too  prove you wrong.

[Teratus.2859]

38 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Name a single game which was Massive and not a MMORPG pre say EQ or other first wave MMORPGs.

That's easy, Ultima Online.
It was the creator of UO that coined the phrase MMORPG in the first place.
So prior to the term MMORPG being used Ultima Online would have been regarded as a MMOG instead.

MMOG wasn't a term that was around long for the record, MMORPG replaced it very quickly.

The Realm Online is a good example of this as it is regarded as an MMORPG today even though the game came out before the term MMORPG existed.
Ergo The Realm Online was for at least the first year of it's release an MMOG or MUD not an MMORPG.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Cyninja.2954]

18 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

That's easy, Ultima Online.
It was the creator of UO that coined the phrase MMORPG in the first place.
So prior to the term MMORPG being used Ultima Online would have been regarded as a MMOG instead.

MMOG wasn't a term that was around long for the record, MMORPG replaced it very quickly.

The Realm Online is a good example of this as it is regarded as an MMORPG today even though the game came out before the term MMORPG existed.
Ergo The Realm Online was for at least the first year of it's release an MMOG or MUD not an MMORPG.

So your example of an MMO is literally the game which coined the phrase MMORPG? Okay.... no one denies the fact that there was transitions in naming. The fact remains, the amount of actual game swhich were massive was inconsequential to any genre besides the MMORPG genre as we know it now. There were no MMOs due to a multitude of reasons (one of the biggest being limited bandwidth and computing power).

 

I already mentioned MUDs, which in relation to Realm Online was the more appropriate term to use and not MMO.

 

Let's leave that aside though and focus on what I actually said:

Everything I said applies about how these games being neither solo friendly nor intended to be soloed back then. This still holds true no matter at which point the term MMORPG was coined.

 

MMOs as games which are not MMORPGs is actually a thing of the last 10-15 years (if we actually look at game play mechanics and design of the game, beyond naming).

Edited August 8, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Naqam a.6521]

8 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Did you hurt yourself with that stretch?

No, I saw people advocating for legendary armor that required less effort than what's currently available.  The skill of conquering raids, the persistence of PvP, or the ease of WvW.  You even admitted in a round-about way that you didn't want it to come from Strike CMs.  So, do tell me;

What would your requirements be for your version of "PvE" legendary armor.  I'm quite curious.

Normal Strike in the next expansion offer the old Raid Skins

CM Strike in the next expanion is the only way to get the gen Skins .

3 years from now , in next expansion they can get the EoD Skins somehow .

If normalStrike is filled with many LI-KP requiremments , then offer an easy mode Raids , so they can get the LI and then comeback in the normal EoD Strikes to do the content

 

Every 3 years , a minority of the population will have gear than not many can obtain andCM strikes wont need to be nerfed .

(now if we have new raids in the next 3 years , its debatable based on the activity of Normal Strikes , otherwise i predict , nothing for 5-6 months and then more open World Bosses )

Edited August 8, 2021 by Naqam a.6521

[Teratus.2859]

16 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So your example of an MMO is literally the game which coined the phrase MMORPG? Okay.... no one denies the fact that there was transitions in naming. The fact remains, the amount of actual game swhich were massive was inconsequential to any genre besides the MMORPG genre as we know it now. There were no MMOs due to a multitude of reasons (one of the biggest being limited bandwidth and computing power).

 

I already mentioned MUDs, which in relation to Realm Online was the more appropriate term to use and not MMO.

 

Let's leave that aside though and focus on what I actually said:

Everything I said applies about how these games being neither solo friendly nor intended to be soloed back then. This still holds true no matter at which point the term MMORPG was coined.

Well there are others, you can take any online RPG launched between 1995 and 1997 in which the terms MMOG and MMORPG were coined and classify it as a MMOG really, even MUD's can qualify.
By extent even, every MMORPG today is an MMOG since they basically mean the same thing.

The distinction is simply what the Massive implies, you claimed cooperation but by very definition it only implies a large number of players being able to interact on a server.
How they interact is irrelevant in that regard.. they could cooperate or antagonise each other, it would still be an MMO regardless of that.

The games not being intended as soloable isn't really important to the naming convention.
If it was then you could argue GW2 wouldn't be an MMO lol

Edited August 8, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[DoomNexus.5324]

14 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Alright, this is actually incorrect.

They (ANet) added legendary armor to PvP and WvW for the same reason dungeon armor was added t o PvP and WvW Reward tracks.  It's to throw those players who play that content a way to earn those skins, give them the functionality of legendary armor, and to entice more players to play that content.  It  has nothing to do with how active raids are.

“Flashpoint” devs here – ask us anything! : Guildwars2 (reddit.com)
After they've added raid armor they had "no plans to release another set of legendary armor in the future" and a lot of non-raiders complained, hence why PvP and WvW armor were added later and since they originally didn't plan to ever add those, they were rushed and don't have a unique skin like the raid ones have.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You want the skin, you do the content.

No one is debating otherwise, so your comments are very dismissive here. People have this backwards because ultimately the goal for Anet is to get players engaged in the game. If they aren't, they don't play it. So it's in Anet's best interest to make sure if they develop content and put rewards in the game, that there is good correlation between those content and rewards to what people want to do. This isn't some crazy notion or concept; it's the fundamental basis that MMO's are designed on. Clearly, raids doesn't do that. 

 

So yes, you want something you do the content ... but if there is all this content that has all this things in it and very few people to do that content and get those things ... that's a massive problem for Anet and a big concern for players. To the extreme, that's the kind of thing that ruins any business. Too many missed ROI targets and it's done. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[hash.8462]

3 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I'm for this so long as it has a similar amount of effort required to obtain.  It'll probably need more strike runs though, as they reset daily.

 

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Aye.
And the higher difficulties you partake in the quicker you can get it done.

Starting from this quotes I wanna try to reach an agreement... but without using just Strikes (that would be boring)...

 

Let start that way:

#1 - This new PvE armor will need to be unlocked with gems <- Devs will use that income to create more content so everyone is happy (Devs also 🙂)... gold->gems is also ok of course;

#2 - Once unlocked you will get a new Daily to get tokens required for Precursor and Legendary pieces (see later);

#3 - Each piece will require a collection like early 2nd tier weapons;

#4 - No new skin required, the ascended one is ok.

 

1st precursor attempt will just need to be crafted;

2nd precursor attempt will require a collection and 10 tokens then just have to be crafted;

The true precursor will require a collection and 30 tokens then have to be crafted;

Each Legendary piece will require the precursor, 60 tokens and a Gift of Tyria (Gift of Exploration + Maguuma + Desert + Cantha) 😈

Starting from zero each piece will require 100 tokens, so 600 tokens for the whole armor.

 

The new daily (one of each type), tasks will have to be Account Randomized:

- One Easy Task (low effort, examples: easy/medium JP, a Dungeon path, a Fractal T1/T2, a DRM, some champion, events, a meta, things like that);

- One Hard Task (medium effort, examples: hard/long JP, Fractal T3/T4, a DRM with 3cm, some hard champion, hard HP, a Bounty, a Strike, things like that);

- One Extreme Task (extreme effort, examples: hard JP instanced*, Fractal T4cm, a DRM with 3cm in solo*, an hard champion instanced*, hard HP instanced*, a Bounty instanced*, an "hard" Strike without dying or with other penality, things like that);

* With "instanced/solo" I mean a mote will lead you to an instanced map where no one else can help you (you can try the content multiple times if you fail)

- One Valuable Donation (Donation at the player's choice from a fixed selection: a piece of acended weapon or armor, some (15-30) Mystic Coins, 30-50 Gold, maybe other things like that), this one can be swapped for a second Extreme Task.

 

Note: If you are able to get 4 tokens/day you will need about 22weeks to complete the an armor;

If you are so lazy to only get 1 tokens/day you will need about 86weeks to complete it.

 

Question to raiders: Is that effort enough?

Question to casuals: Is that effort too much?

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by hash.8462

[Xanadrine.4352]

4 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

 

You seem to have this idea that being labeled a  raider is some sort of pariah or a bad thing when it's not.  Defeating bosses in that content is okay, but let me explain to you why I and many others who do raid get rather perturbed by people who seem to have this attitude of "Minimal effort, maximum reward."  People who ask for alternative, easier, routes to items that  are supposed to be challenging to get either through time commitment or skill.

When I'm speaking critically of open world groups or players, I speak from experience.  I've been in raid groups that deal ~400k DPS and fractal groups that pull about half that and melt bosses in under a minute, while at the same time I've been in the open world squads of 50 players giving boons and doing a rotation only for the squad's total DPS to equate to just shy of 70-100k with myself and 2-5 others making up 80-95% of that DPS.  So forgive me if I come off as a bit jaded or prejudiced against open world players and people who come off as having their sort of attitude.

You should really look in a mirror, its because of players like you that raids will prob die out. No one wants to pug esp in that environment . Ask in any chat in game hey do you guys like the raids? And the first response is usually , lol i wont do that toxic environment,  or naw too many jerks. Personally i like raids with my friends, I would never pug which is what most people have to do in order to get the set. That or pay 40 thousand gold lol? Anet made a mistake in putting the set in a mode few would do. Esp now with the release of the armory people are getting even more disgruntled, and if your largest player base starts feeling like you left them out in the cold, thats trouble.

Unless they are using artificial rarity with the legendary set, then they should learn a lesson from what happened to blizzard when doing that. 

 

I have nothing against raids, I do them off and on enough to have LI and full ascended gear and weapons with 1000 mag shards left over. But I can see the issue for a good majority of the players. Why cant you? The set dont have to be any special skin imo but it should be a fully functional legendary set.

[Nephalem.8921]

Raids in gw2 are not hardcore. There are just very few bosses that are just a tiny bit difficult.

Raid rewards also suck big time. Unless you have a speedrun static 1h of drizzlewood will get you far more rewards than the 1-2 raidwings you can clear within that time if you use the lfg.

There are many reasons why raids failed. Difficulty is none of them. All bosses have max 3 mechanics you need to care about and those mechanics are usually "dont stay in red" or "dodge the big obvious attack". Sometimes 1-2 players have to do more like throwing a bomb or collecting some stuff but this is at best wow normal raid difficulty or even slightly above ff14 casual normal raids or strikes. Those strikes are required for the story aswell.

Lock the build system for new players or force them to use predefined good gear with good runes and completion rate would skyrocket. 

The gw2 target audience is probably one that also enjoys asian mobile mmos with auto combat features. Just click on all the shiny chests while doing something else on the main screen.

What i dont understand is why even the casuals in ff14 try out extreme trials sometimes while the players in gw2 don't even bother to read their skill descriptions.

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The fact that they haven't made a new raid in, what almost two years now, tells us something too. Raids have failed in this game. Maybe they simply haven't got to it because you know they're working on a living story, an expansion, legendary armory.  Anet taking a long time to solve a problem might simply mean Anet is taking a long time to solve a problem. You don't really know and neither do I.

What does that have to do with anything?!? Ok so let's say they completely retire tbe content. You still need to do it to get the armor! God the whiney entitled bads in this game are enough to drive people to ff14 or new world I swear. I'll tell you what. If they EVER make an open world way to get envoy armor I'll personally pay for yours. Hell I'll pay for everyone's in here who is "totally capable and obviously good enough but just doesn't want to on principle" or whatever bs you said earlier. In fact, ill start saving money now because I'm sure that's right around the corner. 

[Xanadrine.4352]

3 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Did you hurt yourself with that stretch?

No, I saw people advocating for legendary armor that required less effort than what's currently available.  The skill of conquering raids, the persistence of PvP, or the ease of WvW.  You even admitted in a round-about way that you didn't want it to come from Strike CMs.  So, do tell me;

What would your requirements be for your version of "PvE" legendary armor.  I'm quite curious.

Thats a stretch, some people want it handed to them, i know I did not say no such thing. I advocate a long journey doing cheeves that are not that easy, world boss cheeves, Legendary bloodstone boss cheeves and collections, collections, dungeons paths that you have to kill a boss and do the named cheeve to get an item for the collection. I mean come now, one of the envoy things is get gooped by a chak, its right next to a WP, big deal. I would love to make dungeons like Arah relevant with a legendary set that means you have to do the tasks with the bosses in order to get the cheeve for the set. Having to do things like dont get hit by x or stand in y in order to get a cheeve, like in raids, you have to do x in order to get the cheeve for the legendary. Only this will be in open world events bosses metas, and dungeons because they need to be relevant again and they have a story that can be connected to overworld. Then craft the set using mats and currencies from dungeons and overworld that you have to have.

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No one is debating otherwise, so your comments are very dismissive here. People have this backwards because ultimately the goal for Anet is to get players engaged in the game. If they aren't, they don't play it. So it's in Anet's best interest to make sure if they develop content and put rewards in the game, that there is good correlation between those content and rewards to what people want to do. This isn't some crazy notion or concept; it's the fundamental basis that MMO's are designed on. Clearly, raids doesn't do that. 

 

So yes, you want something you do the content ... but if there is all this content that has all this things in it and very few people to do that content and get those things ... that's a massive problem for Anet and a big concern for players. To the extreme, that's the kind of thing that ruins any business. Too many missed ROI targets and it's done. 

No one is debating otherwise, followed by debating why people dont want to do the content?

[Xanadrine.4352]

18 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

What i dont understand is why even the casuals in ff14 try out extreme trials sometimes while the players in gw2 don't even bother to read their skill descriptions.

Apples and oranges, FF is not billed as a casual mmo, its like wow where the end game is pretty much raids and you have to keep up on gear. Its actually a clone of wow. GW2 is not like that the end game here is do what you want, maybe the LWS should be called endgame, since they are the stuff that gets released the most. 

[yoni.7015]

20 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Thats a stretch, some people want it handed to them, i know I did not say no such thing. I advocate a long journey doing cheeves that are not that easy, world boss cheeves, Legendary bloodstone boss cheeves and collections, collections, dungeons paths that you have to kill a boss and do the named cheeve to get an item for the collection. I mean come now, one of the envoy things is get gooped by a chak, its right next to a WP, big deal. I would love to make dungeons like Arah relevant with a legendary set that means you have to do the tasks with the bosses in order to get the cheeve for the set. Having to do things like dont get hit by x or stand in y in order to get a cheeve, like in raids, you have to do x in order to get the cheeve for the legendary. Only this will be in open world events bosses metas, and dungeons because they need to be relevant again and they have a story that can be connected to overworld. Then craft the set using mats and currencies from dungeons and overworld that you have to have.

 

 

Sorry but dungeons and world bosses are not really challenging content. Someone in this thread mentioned the new strike missions as a possibility to implement a new legendary armor set. I think that could be a good way. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by yoni.7015

[yann.1946]

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle. 

I bought a game that had no raids, partly because it had no raids. I feel personally like raiding has destroyed what MMOs could have been. I was happy for a game without it. 

Obviously some people love it, but some people can't stand it, because of how almost every other themepark MMO funnels you into it. I played Rift and without raiding you couldn't even finish the main quest line.

But that is not how this game's raids work. This mindsetl looks so weird to me, some games forced some content called raids to much, so I'm against raids in all other games?