Next Time I Have To Play LW3 ...

[Kraggy.4169]

... Anet, please provide an option to silence Braham's dialog, I get utterly bored listening to his self-centred, self-important and arrogant comments.

 

Yes, he lost his mother to the Mordrem, but he's supposed to be an adult, his mother must be turning in her grave seeing him so pathetic.

 

.. God I'd forgotten how totally pathetic he is .. then in LwS5 he becomes all self-doubting, he's entirely forgettable.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kraggy.4169

[Dante.1763]

13 minutes ago, Kraggy.4169 said:

... Anet, please provide an option to silence Braham's dialog, I get utterly bored listening to his self-centred, self-important and arrogant comments.

 

Yes, he lost his mother to the Mordrem, but he's supposed to be an adult, his mother must be turning in her grave seeing him so pathetic.

 

.. God I'd forgotten how totally pathetic he is .. then in LwS5 he becomes all self-doubting, he's entirely forgettable.

I turn the entire sound off for the vast majority of episodes due to Braham, usually get up and leave until all the talking is done too.

 

It has less to do with what issues i have with the character though.

[Loboling.5293]

LW Season 3 is why I signed a petition to kill the character off... That was truly cringe writing, especially how the 'commander' responded to it all. 

Still better than IBS though... 

[Trejgon.9367]

57 minutes ago, Kraggy.4169 said:

Yes, he lost his mother to the Mordrem, but he's supposed to be an adult, his mother must be turning in her grave seeing him so pathetic.

First of all he is supposed to be a Norn ^-^

Adult or not, his behaviour could be fitting there if he was a human. But it does not make sense for a Norn. He should cherish the Legend his mother managed to build and strive to build even bigger legend to be worthy calling himself her son. Not complain how he lost his mother to an Elder dragon....

[Dante.1763]

25 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

First of all he is supposed to be a Norn ^-^

Adult or not, his behaviour could be fitting there if he was a human. But it does not make sense for a Norn. He should cherish the Legend his mother managed to build and strive to build even bigger legend to be worthy calling himself her son. Not complain how he lost his mother to an Elder dragon....

Characters acting in a manner fitting for the lore of the game? Madness!

 

Imagine Jora behaving that way >.>

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

First of all he is supposed to be a Norn ^-^

Adult or not, his behaviour could be fitting there if he was a human. But it does not make sense for a Norn. He should cherish the Legend his mother managed to build and strive to build even bigger legend to be worthy calling himself her son. Not complain how he lost his mother to an Elder dragon....

I love how utterly one dimensional people want to boil down the races to be, the epitome of bad writing, while complaining about supposedly bad writing in the process.

 

Cherishing her legend doesn't mean not being upset that she is dead, or that the Commander is suddenly making a new guild to fight dragons, or wanting to get revenge for her death.

[Trejgon.9367]

45 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I love how utterly one dimensional people want to boil down the races to be, the epitome of bad writing, while complaining about supposedly bad writing in the process.

 

It isn't "boiling down the race to be one dimensional" tho. Different species have different societies and societal rules is quite normal. Different cultures tends to approach certain issues differently. Before LWS3 Norns are presented to be highly individualistic with pressing societal requirement on ones legend building. Would you expect Japanese to be happy with barely passing grade? Alot of Europeans would be happy with barely passing. Our culture does not care that much. Is saying that Japanee team being happy to barely pass trying to make their whole culture one-dimensional? hell no, it is just that in this particular case it is not behaviour fitting the outstanding norms.

 

51 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Cherishing her legend doesn't mean not being upset that she is dead,

 

being upset for her dying sooner than she could does not equate whining about it for two seasons of LWS straight.

 

52 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

or that the Commander is suddenly making a new guild to fight dragons

 

Actually, trying to pretend to be a member of her group and expecting others to follow the suit, is quite oposite of cherishing her legend. borderline impersonating even. At no point Barahm was accepted as a member of Destinys edge that Eir formed, and all of the members that were asked about opinion agreed that at this point the guild is as good as disbanded. Untill suddenly we have self-proclaimed leader of disbanded guild claiming to be continuing the legacy. Tho I can agree in here that trying to steal from other legends, while overally being frowned upon, is something a young norn with lack of self-confidence could attempt to do.

 

Also note that Commander was never part of Destiny's Edge either. We helped to mend the guild after certain kralkatorrik happened to them, but at no point we actually join that guild.

 

57 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

or wanting to get revenge for her death.

Revenge which he got during HoT story - twice even - by firstly assiting to kill beast that killed her, and secondly by assisting the master of that creature - Mordremoth. Trying to just assemble random army to go on Jormag is not avenging eir in any degree. And doing so with no plan whatsoever is definitelly not honoring her legacy - since Eir's role in her guild was first and foremostly - tactician, the one with the plan. Braham never has a plan, and he outright refuse to try to sit and formulate one in LWS3.

[Kanok.3027]

28 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

-snip-

All of this right here (sorry, but the post was too long and didn't want to make the page even longer to scroll through).

 

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR LWS3-CURRENT

 

Braham got his revenge on the creature that killed his mother and its master. He got what he wanted, but it wasn't enough. He saw every dragon as the one that killed his mother. But see, after Jormag would have been defeated, he would not really have cared about Primordus or the Deep Sea Dragon, or Kralk for that matter since we didn't go up against him until LWS4 and Braham was after Jormag since LWS3. He was "mourning" for far too long and started to burn bridges along the way because no one wanted to follow his lead on a suicidal campaign. I say mourning in quotes because he got his revenge but decided he wasn't done being pout-y because he missed his mother, which he barely knew as is. Seeing as his attachment to her was low, I can't see why he'd be mourning her THAT much. Enough to shirk off his duty to the guild he pledged himself to. I liked when he FINALLY started to get out of it in LWS5 when he was getting along with Ryland, before the defection. It was refreshing, albeit a bit late, but nice. Then he got mopey over being duped. Then becoming Primordius's Champ because he was angry about being duped by Ryland...that wasn't heroic, it was just stupid.

 

They could have done MUCH better with his character, but they didn't. I like the way Marjory and Kasmeer have been written, with the turbulence in their relationship really starting when Balthazar revealed himself and hurt Jory, then Kas up and left because she was in shock over one of her Gods going rogue. That kind of action, feeling like you've been abandoned by the one that you are closest to, is really hard to get over and then being separated for a time to sort out how to approach that was great! It worked and the way it was handled was far better than Braham being a baby about what happened to someone he barely knew, despite it being his mother. Same goes for Rytlock and Crecia. Their dynamic with Ryland, their son, and how they each are handling the grief of him turning, and ultimately, having to put him down? Yeah, that's very harsh, but they don't whine about it to anyone within earshot or start pissing off others that are trying to help them get through to him, or stop him, because of it. They knew what they had to do. Sure, Braham is young, but he's still and adult and should have gotten his head together after the battle with Mordy. This is why I really couldn't stand him in LWS3. When I saw what they did to him, I was upset because I saw how caring and attentive he was to everyone, especially Taimi. She's like his little sister. Then they kill off Eir and suddenly he goes emo, even though, again, he got revenge and honored her name by helping the Commander take down her killers.

 

I could go on and on, but they really need to rethink how they are writing Braham from now on. I HOPE they will do better for Cantha, but we'll see.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

It isn't "boiling down the race to be one dimensional" tho. Different species have different societies and societal rules is quite normal. Different cultures tends to approach certain issues differently. Before LWS3 Norns are presented to be highly individualistic with pressing societal requirement on ones legend building. Would you expect Japanese to be happy with barely passing grade? Alot of Europeans would be happy with barely passing. Our culture does not care that much. Is saying that Japanee team being happy to barely pass trying to make their whole culture one-dimensional? hell no, it is just that in this particular case it is not behaviour fitting the outstanding norms.

What you describe here is highly racist stereotyping, and would be the definition of bad writing. Its asking for the complete elimination of any sort of nuance in races, and asking for every member of every race to behave exactly the same... instead of the far more realistic wide range of personalities and opinions one would actually see in any realistic situation. Might as well say no Norn should be in the whispers or Priory, since Norn are just fighters.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

being upset for her dying sooner than she could does not equate whining about it for two seasons of LWS straight.

He really only wined about it in LWS3. Which is one season. He was upset at the Commander in LWS4, but thats something else entirely.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Actually, trying to pretend to be a member of her group and expecting others to follow the suit, is quite oposite of cherishing her legend. borderline impersonating even. At no point Barahm was accepted as a member of Destinys edge that Eir formed, and all of the members that were asked about opinion agreed that at this point the guild is as good as disbanded. Untill suddenly we have self-proclaimed leader of disbanded guild claiming to be continuing the legacy. Tho I can agree in here that trying to steal from other legends, while overally being frowned upon, is something a young norn with lack of self-confidence could attempt to do.

 

Also note that Commander was never part of Destiny's Edge either. We helped to mend the guild after certain kralkatorrik happened to them, but at no point we actually join that guild.

He never pretended to be a member of her group, he carried the name onto his group as a way to keep the thing going. Which is a fairly common thing people do in real life for similar reasons. That you consider it stealing is... baffling to say the least.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Revenge which he got during HoT story - twice even - by firstly assiting to kill beast that killed her, and secondly by assisting the master of that creature - Mordremoth. Trying to just assemble random army to go on Jormag is not avenging eir in any degree. And doing so with no plan whatsoever is definitelly not honoring her legacy - since Eir's role in her guild was first and foremostly - tactician, the one with the plan. Braham never has a plan, and he outright refuse to try to sit and formulate one in LWS3.

Trying to assemble an army to take on Jormag is continuing the mission Eir fought for, the death of the Elder Dragons. And his plan was the same plan Asgeir himself used to fight Jormag... and Asgeir almost won. He just let Jormag get to him and thus wussied out in the end.

 

Braham had every historical basis to assume he could have won, and IBS just further reinforces the idea that he could have won. Just like Asgier could have won.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Kanok.3027 said:

Seeing as his attachment to her was low, I can't see why he'd be mourning her THAT much.

Its exactly because he didn't know her that he was that upset. He spent most of his life not really knowing who his mother was, only to recently get the chance to get to know her... only for that to be taken away from him before he could ever really take advantage of it.

 

Its much easier to get over the death of someone you got to spend years with, since, you know, you got to spend years with them and have all the memories of being them them to help you. Its much harder to get over having something taken away from you before you really got the chance, because you are weighted down by all of the "what could have beens"

[Trejgon.9367]

12 hours ago, Kanok.3027 said:

Same goes for Rytlock and Crecia. Their dynamic with Ryland, their son, and how they each are handling the grief of him turning, and ultimately, having to put him down? Yeah, that's very harsh, but they don't whine about it to anyone within earshot or start pissing off others that are trying to help them get through to him, or stop him, because of it.

 

And even then Bangar flat out mocked rytlock for him caring about ryland at all claiming he "forgot how to be a charr".

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

What you describe here is highly racist stereotyping, and would be the definition of bad writing. Its asking for the complete elimination of any sort of nuance in races, and asking for every member of every race to behave exactly the same... instead of the far more realistic wide range of personalities and opinions one would actually see in any realistic situation.

 

Ok, so I take it from here that only good writing to you is if no separate cultures even exist and everything is one big mumbo0jumbo of multi-culti mix of everything? Because that's what you sound like. Different cultures view some things differently, and that is a fact taken straight out of real life, and you may try to paint it "highly racist" but it is undeniable fact that societies in Asia are much more focused on geting high grades in school than western societies. And that was just easiest example from top of my head that I know for sure to be accurate. Give it a little digging and it would still find way more things like that.

 

I am not saying that every norn should be head smash warrior, I am saying that actions braham takes, and how long he takes them does not fit cultural norms established beforehand.

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

He really only wined about it in LWS3. Which is one season. He was upset at the Commander in LWS4, but thats something else entirely.

 

and this is why in LWS4 Episode 4, we needed Eir to come from the mists, basically just to tell Braham to finally get over her?

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

He never pretended to be a member of her group,

Excuse me? he literally called his guild exact.same.name. as his mother's group.

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

he carried the name onto his group as a way to keep the thing going.

creating false sense of association

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Which is a fairly common thing people do in real life for similar reasons.

Yes totally, every time a big company CEO dies, and company disbands it is normal form some forgotten son of that CEO to just create new company that shares no employees even, call it exact same name "in honor of the previous CEO", All while not even following basic principles that made original company even good. Happens every day.

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That you consider it stealing is... baffling to say the least.

 

Well in terms of legal terms in modern days it would be pretty much textbook case of attempted identity theft on corporate scale, and I find the fact that you fail to see it... baffling to say the least.

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Trying to assemble an army to take on Jormag is continuing the mission Eir fought for, the death of the Elder Dragons. And his plan was the same plan Asgeir himself used to fight Jormag... and Asgeir almost won. He just let Jormag get to him and thus wussied out in the end.

 

"Assemble army and use magical bow to kill and ED" is no plan. Casually forgetting that much greater armies has been assembled against elder dragons, and failed (pact assault on mordremoth), and Casually forgetting that Norns has been feeding to Jormag trying to just kill it's champion in search of glory for years before one Eir Stegalkin finally came up with somethin resembling a plan to take it down. Plan Braham didn't make.

 

Chopping off dragon's tooth and having to run with it is not "almost winning", and that is all that braham could have known about asgeir's endeavour at that point.

 

Oh and bonus points "I am so upset about loosing my mother that I am going to lead more people to needlessly die because I can't wait couple days for taimi to develop way that will not endanger people!"

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Braham had every historical basis to assume he could have won,

Except he didn't, as big chunk of Asgeirs "legend" is not that he "almost won" but that of "he failed, but lived to tell the tale"

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

and IBS just further reinforces the idea that he could have won. Just like Asgier could have won.

IBS reinforces only idea that having fancy artifact means nothing.

 

Back to Brahams plan:

1. "Norn army" is interesting notion considering that for centuries norns could have set out a handfull norns and call that "equivalent of an army"....

2. In "Crack in the Ice" Commander confronts Braham about his "plan" (of just grabbing people and charging at jormag), and his response to "this is not a plan but just putting more people at risk" he refutes "oh because all of your plans went so well?" (straight out denying the need for a better plan, because one of commander's plans happened to have side effects, and completely ignoring that at least it got the job done)

 

11 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its exactly because he didn't know her that he was that upset.

and again, he was not "just" upset. He went from a Norn into full on single dimentional "must kill ah dragens cuz my momma died" for whole season, and "I am bad cuz I abandonned muh pack because dragen killed muh momma" for next one. Bonus points for "must get muh momma bow I enchanted with scroll back" and "I am dealing with consequences of my actions and not taking it well" but in all fairness it makes more sense at that point.

 

And again, Braham arc makes "logical sense" but only when we forget Norns have their own culture, and assume they are just big human. Heck I was defending braham's arc for whole of LWS3 and 4. All up untill I have started digging deeper into norn lore and realized that Braham does not really fit there.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And even then Bangar flat out mocked rytlock for him caring about ryland at all claiming he "forgot how to be a charr".

And yet its mentioned in Bound by Blood that parents frequently check in on their children in the Farhar because, you know, the idea that Charr are emotionless, war machine, clones, who don't care about their children, is nonsense when compared to... like any other species that exists. Bangar is just a narcissistic sociopath trying to make Rytlock feel bad for having/acting on the feelings most Charr do, but are pressured by society to try to ignore.

 

Hell, Bangar himself expressed clear emotional connection to his son, Ajax, when talking to Almorra in Vision of the Past. Which in turn makes him a giant hypocrite just trying to tear Rytlock down as a means of maintain his ego after losing his civil war gambit, and being reduced to a prisoner.

 

Its almost like Norn could be the same thing also. Just like we have seen many Norn who don't give two flips about the "traditional" Norn values of independence, and legend building, and are just perfectly fine with being mundane farmers, or raising animals, or being brewers. Because, you know, that wide range of personalities, and actions would be necessary for any society to function.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Trejgon.9367]

2 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And yet its mentioned in Bound by Blood that parents frequently check in on their children in the Farhar because, you know, the idea that Charr are  emotionless, war machine, clones, who don't care about their children is nonsense when compared to... like any other species that exists. Bangar is just a narcissistic sociopath trying to make Rytlock feel bad for having the feeling most Charr do, but are pressured by society to try to ignore.

 

Its almost like Norn could be the same thing also.

 

It is almost like society had expectations of one should behave, who would have guessed. As much as Bangar is punchable psycho, he serves the point in that story to point out that rytlock was crossing social standards at that point. And prior to that even Crecia was making remark that he is freaking over Ryland following bangar too much. And here is the big difference between handling of Rytlock crossing the set societal boundaries and Braham doing the same by the way. When Rytlocks freaks out over family, and there is other charr present, at least one othr charr will make a remark about rytlock behaviour being unusual. And considering that rytlock has his out-of-societal-norms-outrage much later in the story than Braham, and considering that Braham acting un-Nornly has been a big complaint since LWS3, would seem to imply writers at AN has learned their lesson with Braham, and did not make same mistakes with Rytlock. Or just care about keeping charr society integral within lore more than they cared for norns, hard to say at this point 🤔 

[radda.8920]

Just abominable, he's one of the most unbearable characters I've come across in a video game and without a doubt the worst in the entire guild wars saga.

[ugrakarma.9416]

be patient, he only appear on episode 3. he's gone on episode 4,5,6.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 8/6/2021 at 3:19 AM, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

and again, he was not "just" upset. He went from a Norn into full on single dimentional "must kill ah dragens cuz my momma died"

 

even worse, hes completely forget, in a short time, that we killed mordy/faolain, avenging his mother.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Braham's meant to be written this way. Keep in mind when we first meet him he's extremely young, and at the current time while he is an adult he's also not very old by societal standards, even in Tyria. Even the Sylvari Firstborns are in their 30s now, and Braham is in his mid-20s at the most.

 

In comparison most Norn we see are quite a bit older. Many are very old, having visibly white hair, wrinkles, etc. Judging his behavior by the average Norn is pointless because of the differences between generations.

 

The devs talked a bit one time about how much people say they identify with Braham as well. I don't remember the details but he represents a significant part of the player base and is generally well-liked outside of the forums because of it, being one of the most popular characters (behind Rytlock, ofc).

 

Also Taimi's arc is closely intertwined with his since he's still her unofficial guardian (no pun intended), especially since we have no idea what happened to Zojja still.

 

Its also highly suggestive that alot of the conflict between the PC and Braham was because the PC was essentially a parental figure some years for Braham, and the events of HoT make him regret not knowing his real mom as opposed to his mentor. Later he accepts that the PC filled the role for him the best they could and became family as well. Its kind of like the opposite of the whole Trahearne/[Tybalt,Forgal,Sieran] situation.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Soaring Spirit.9170]

While I really don't like Human Braham, I do have to admit the sheer amount of irritation he causes just says to me they did a good job of making him unliked xD I just wish we didn't back off so much 😄

[Follyfoot.2803]

I hope they don't bother with a LW story for EOD.  No more torture please.  Just sell us any extra maps that would go with it and dump any plans for a story..  If you could call it a story.  To me it's more like very bad dungeon content.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 8/8/2021 at 9:06 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

Braham's meant to be written this way. Keep in mind when we first meet him he's extremely young, and at the current time while he is an adult he's also not very old by societal standards, even in Tyria. Even the Sylvari Firstborns are in their 30s now, and Braham is in his mid-20s at the most.

 

In comparison most Norn we see are quite a bit older. Many are very old, having visibly white hair, wrinkles, etc. Judging his behavior by the average Norn is pointless because of the differences between generations.

 

The devs talked a bit one time about how much people say they identify with Braham as well. I don't remember the details but he represents a significant part of the player base and is generally well-liked outside of the forums because of it, being one of the most popular characters (behind Rytlock, ofc).

 

Also Taimi's arc is closely intertwined with his since he's still her unofficial guardian (no pun intended), especially since we have no idea what happened to Zojja still.

 

Its also highly suggestive that alot of the conflict between the PC and Braham was because the PC was essentially a parental figure some years for Braham, and the events of HoT make him regret not knowing his real mom as opposed to his mentor. Later he accepts that the PC filled the role for him the best they could and became family as well. Its kind of like the opposite of the whole Trahearne/[Tybalt,Forgal,Sieran] situation.

Fair take.

I think the majority of the issue for most people is how they made the commander act during many instances of season 3: the "commander doormat" -meme was born for a reason. When Braham was chiding the commander like a child and they didn't reply in kind, it felt undeserved and outlandish.

[Ultramex.1506]

You know.........people would have been less angry has Anet let people pick their own response to Braham, kinda like ......oh...i don't know....like this?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality

Do you remember this Anet? OH WAIT! you can pick Charming or Brute reply to Phlunt in episode 5 that have different outcome! So they do remember just that Braham was too "important" to give player choices, see how that went!

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

You know.........people would have been less angry has Anet let people pick their own response to Braham, kinda like ......oh...i don't know....like this?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality

Do you remember this Anet? OH WAIT! you can pick Charming or Brute reply to Phlunt in episode 5 that have different outcome! So they do remember just that Braham was too "important" to give player choices, see how that went!

I miss that functionality, really really do. It wasnt overly impacting towards the story, but it gave the player some semblance of being able to react how they or their character would have.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I would love the option to individually mute NPCs.

[Imba.9451]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:39 AM, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

It is almost like society had expectations of one should behave, who would have guessed.

Yeah, and sometimes social expectations are not healthy for some people. Or that there is only one way to behave, else you have no right to exist.

 

I prefer character over race-sterotypes. Not gonna say that Braham is a good character (hell, he isn't...), but just having sterotypical Norn, sterotypical Charr and stereotypical Asura would be much more bothersome. Heck, one can even make the argument that Taimi and Rytlock are Race-stereotypes to a certainextend.