*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers* — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*

FrigginPaco.4178FrigginPaco.4178 Member ✭✭✭

For me, this would be a moment that leads to a poor explanation when an alternative exists.

Joko. Specifically his "undeath" that is transferred to Aurene.
The tool her mother used to allegedly cheat death is actually the Shield #4 skill on revenant: Crystal Hibernation.

It stands to reason that Glint could have given this knowledge to Aurene when they had their "private chat" while the Commander had to go another route.
I have many problems with just chalking it up to "Joko is undead, so now you're able to come back to life!"

In many other media where Liches exist, they typically have rituals and other contrivances to consider to afford them their undeath. Now, I do realize that GW2 might operate under other circumstances. Though, phylacteries exist (as trophy chests) and I have to wonder if there are any further implications or if it's simply a place where mechanics and lore diverge.

Going back to Crystal Hibernation for a moment, the skill blocks damage and heals over an interval. The GW1 is even more powerful: Skill. (monster only) For 20 seconds, Gain +7 Health regeneration. Whenever you would take non-physical damage, gain an equal amount of Health instead.

I would have much rather seen Aurene come out of a sort of Chrysalis/metamorphic process than simply "yep, I ate a very persistent dead guy."

Any takers?

Potential requires action in order to be realized.

<1

Comments

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if we never assaulted any dungeon? What if Gaheron, Kudu, Zhaithan, Huntsman of Jormag, Faolin... never met the pact or destiny edge?

    Shiny links, take a look!
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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    What if we never assaulted any dungeon? What if Gaheron, Kudu, Zhaithan, Huntsman of Jormag, Faolin... never met the pact or destiny edge?

    Fun fact: Originally, ANet had plans to make your activities in dungeons affect the future plot, especially the final mission. Doing them or not would result in who of Destiny's Edge would show up or not show up.

    Was unclear if this would have affected the other aspects of the dungeons, like the bosses, but it did affect Destiny's Edge.

    This apparently didn't pan out, most likely because of the orientation of groups and no group leader. Without an "instance owner" in the team mechanics, how to determine which player to read for who shows up or not.

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  • Mannah.4012Mannah.4012 Member ✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    However, if I had to decide on one, it would still be Trahearne's death. I'd just cut out the nonsense about this backup seed and have the battle end when the battle ended. There was nothing at all in the story following HoT that made Trahearne's death necessary. Everything could have played out the same way. There's nothing Logan did as the Pact Marshal that could not have been done by Trahearne. He also would have been injured, of course, and his position would have had to change to a desk job. Even the Caladbolg quest could still have happened. We could have worked together with Trahearne instead of this newly invented character who pretended to have been there all the time. Would have made more sense, even. And since Trahearne wouldn't have needed a magic sword in the office, we could still have inherited it. No problem.

    The mentors dying made sense, even Eir's death was important overall. But this one... pure "fan"service and completely unnecessary. And I'm still waiting for a memo to see if he made it through the Realm of the Lost.

    ^ All this. In addition, HoT story seems... incomplete for me, we waste a lost of time going to Rata Novus but we don't know very much about the other tribes we meet during the story. The jungle still has a lot of mysteries for me, for example:

    • the 4th path at DS
    • what happens with all mordrem after Mordry's death
    • where's Trahearne corpse (I refuse to assume he's dead until I see that)

    Also, I'd go a bit further with the story around Malyck, Nightmare Court and every faction of each race. We have little information about all of them apart from the dungeons, they're wasted potential. I loved Side Stories because of that and it's a shame that they didn't continue them.

    The sudden change of Smodur's personality at the new chapter

    The Commander's mental health after all the things he/she has gone through must have been afected after all.

  • Forgotten Legend.9281Forgotten Legend.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    for me, the biggest "what the kitten" moment is saying that Jormag went back to sleep because of using Ormadd's machine to send Primordius back to sleep, hundreds of miles away. Elder dragons are not the crimson twins from the 80s Gi Joe cartoon. (Tomax and Xamot) if you punched Tomax, Xamot would feel it and fall down as if you punched Xamot instead. it's a comedy act that has no place in GW2's main villains. it would be okay as an easter egg with NPC twins in the open world, but not for elder dragons.

    a better explanation is that Jormag sensed that Primordius was defeated, so intentionally FAKED EVERYONE OUT by making us THINK she went back to sleep, when she actually just tactically retreated to continue corrupting new minions. If everyone thinks she's asleep, they let their guard down, allowing her much more freedom to influence and corrupt bigger heroes. Our heroes should be smart enough to figure this out instead of saying that an assault on Primordius defeated Jormag hundreds of miles away.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    for me, the biggest "what the kitten" moment is saying that Jormag went back to sleep because of using Ormadd's machine to send Primordius back to sleep, hundreds of miles away. Elder dragons are not the crimson twins from the 80s Gi Joe cartoon. (Tomax and Xamot) if you punched Tomax, Xamot would feel it and fall down as if you punched Xamot instead. it's a comedy act that has no place in GW2's main villains. it would be okay as an easter egg with NPC twins in the open world, but not for elder dragons.

    If you pay attention during the instance, you can see Taimi's Machine taking red magic out of Primordus and shooting it out of the volcano, then it sucks in a blue beam of energy from out of the volcano and shoots it at Primordus.

    This is an exchange of Primordus' and Jormag's energies via Taimi's Machine. You're right that they are not the crimson twins or somehow linked where one gets injured so does the other. However, Taimi's Machine was affecting them both and this was not just shown but outright stated several times.

    Heck, in the story instance, you even collect orbs called Primordus Energy and Jormag Energy and shooting Temur and Tegan with such. There's even a bonus achievement to collect more Primordus Energy and Jormag Energy after the machine explodes.

    The explanation is sound.

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  • Abraxxus.8971Abraxxus.8971 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2020

    The things I would change off the top of my head are
    1) Scarlet Briar would survive the Breachmaker battle, and would become and asset in the battle against Mordremoth, and later an ally of Dragon's Watch
    2) Trahearne would survive and stay Pact Marshall
    3) Malyck would make an appearance in HoT
    4) The 4th path in DS would be in
    5) Aurene would A)never had died or b) died and stayed dead.
    I'm sure there is more I would change, just can't think of them right now.

    Bring back Ceara

  • Mannah.4012Mannah.4012 Member ✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The primary thing I'd change, would be Trahearne not becoming Pact Marshal. Instead, another character is written and developed that can take the position, allowing Trahearne to be better developed as he doesn't have to be "The Pact Marshal" and can have more focus on him developing his skills beyond his book learnin's.

    I.e. He accompanies the PC throughout missions to learn about combat, while providing us with key information about Orr and Zhaitan's minions.

    With the culmination being that after we cleanse the source of Orr together, where it's us assisting Trahearne in his Wyld Hunt, we then face down Zhaitan together, where it's Trahearne assisting us in our "Wyld Hunt" (Not some BS stand around shooting a cannon while everyone else gorms out being utterly useless) - Using what he learned as he accompanied us as well as Caladbolg which he was given for a reason.

    The knock on effect this would have, is it would set Trahearne up for a much less horrible iteration in the original PS, which could then continue on into LW2 where he is more involved (Due to having finished his Wyld Hunt, he would have the freedom to follow other pursuits) and then wouldn't necessarily need to be killed off in HoT due to being portrayed horribly in prior stories...

    The secondary thing I'd change, would be Eir's death. As trading one of the few well written characters and fewer still Norn characters for the awful character that is Braham is not a good trade (Meanwhile, we still have Logan and Zojja alive and well even if Zojja doesn't really particpate in much at all despite being so concerned about Taimi upon her rescue... Oh and Rytlock Trombone gets to be a main character so it's not really that it was about dismantling Destiny's Edge)

    Even if Eir didn't become part of Dragon's Watch like Rytlock, having her around and continuing her character development would have been far better than the kitten which is Emo Braham being emo and awful. In fact, if Braham died in her stead, it would have perfectly continued her development, what with only having recently come to terms with the guilt over Snaff's death, being faced with the death of her son that she again only recently started to bond with would have been a turning point where she'd have to try and deal with that guilt too (It'd also make more sense for her to go off trying to earn some glory by trying to take down Jormag on her own - She missed out on raising her son because she went to create her legend, so reverting back to that to deal with his death would be natural. More so than Braham mourning the death of his mother he only recently stopped resenting, barely, and then going full on crazy as if his very reason to live was taken away while being super mad at the PC...)

    Incidentally, Braham's death would have also created reason to develop Rox's character more. As she'd be greiving too. Maybe she'd try and get into a Warband (Potentially some sketchy one), possibly even get tempted by the Flame Legion to which we could end up going to help save her from such decisions and help her deal with her grief.

    All this could have then put more focus onto the development of Dragon's Watch and the characters within, as opposed to the development of Dragon's Babysitting and a bunch of stuff about Humans and their stupid useless gods that apparently don't give a kitten about them.

    Those are very interesting plot twists for both :open_mouth: Never thought about Trahearne not being the pact marshal and Braham's death. And I like it!

  • Dan.9304Dan.9304 Member ✭✭

    Aurene staying dead. i had such strong feelings when they lost and i feel like it was a bad move to bring her back to live. doesn't change the fact that the story is AWESOME!

    Black Gate: [ViP]

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    for me, the biggest "what the kitten" moment is saying that Jormag went back to sleep because of using Ormadd's machine to send Primordius back to sleep, hundreds of miles away. Elder dragons are not the crimson twins from the 80s Gi Joe cartoon. (Tomax and Xamot) if you punched Tomax, Xamot would feel it and fall down as if you punched Xamot instead. it's a comedy act that has no place in GW2's main villains. it would be okay as an easter egg with NPC twins in the open world, but not for elder dragons.

    If you pay attention during the instance, you can see Taimi's Machine taking red magic out of Primordus and shooting it out of the volcano, then it sucks in a blue beam of energy from out of the volcano and shoots it at Primordus.

    This is an exchange of Primordus' and Jormag's energies via Taimi's Machine. You're right that they are not the crimson twins or somehow linked where one gets injured so does the other. However, Taimi's Machine was affecting them both and this was not just shown but outright stated several times.

    Heck, in the story instance, you even collect orbs called Primordus Energy and Jormag Energy and shooting Temur and Tegan with such. There's even a bonus achievement to collect more Primordus Energy and Jormag Energy after the machine explodes.

    The explanation is sound.

    my problem has to do with the distance separating the 2 dragons. one machine, right next to one dragon in Canada, and somehow affects another dragon in Mexico without any time delay? it would have been more believable to have another machine ((secretly developed by a certain Zojja)) in the Northern SHiverpeaks that tied into the ley lines to enable the energy transfer, than for me to accept that a little tiny machine is capable of focusing a laser beam on a moving dragon hundreds of miles away. it's a laser beam... those go in straight lines and lose strength the further they travel. laser beams don't fly like whimsical birds.

    if Jormag was resting on top of the volcano, i would have believed it. but she wasn't. she was across the sea, on the other side of the mountains, in another country.

    the explanation ignores the rules of energy and magic that have been established in the game: there still needs to be a certain proximity for it to work. When Vizier Khibron caused the cataclysm, he was in Orr. and Orr sank... not Cantha. when Zhaitan awoke under Arah in Orr, Orr rose from the sea, not Elona. when Krakattorrik flew south to attack Glint, the brand formed where Kralkatorrik flew through Ascalon and the Crystal Desert, not in Kryta. The dragons' magic is localized around the dragon. Mordremoth was stronger than Zhaitan, so had a longer range for his magic, which is why he could attack Forts in Kryta and the Southern Shiverpeaks. there's no evidence of Jormag's magic's influence outside the Shiverpeaks, much less in the Fire Islands. We even had a side story where we followed Primordius' energy signature before he settle under Draconis mons, and we still had to be within proximity to track it properly. Even the laser on the Glory of Tyria had a limited range when fighting Zhaitan. the lasers used against Jormag's Claw and Tequatl were located at the locations of the battles, also... not on the other side of the mountains. but Omadd's modified machine could absorb a dragon's magic from outside the dragon's magical range? and could harm her? i don't buy it.

    the in-game explanation might appease you within the realms of "suspension of disbelief", but i don't accept it., and i never will. even if it is just another early plot point that wasn't fully fleshed out. trouble is, it totally broke the immersion for me.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    Kinda surprised no one has said "Logan stayed to fight Kraalkatorik" as one of the big "what if" moments. Would Queen Jennah have survived? Would Glint? What then of Aurene and Vlast? How would that have affected the current balance of power with the dragons?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The primary thing I'd change, would be Trahearne not becoming Pact Marshal. Instead, another character is written and developed that can take the position, allowing Trahearne to be better developed as he doesn't have to be "The Pact Marshal" and can have more focus on him developing his skills beyond his book learnin's.

    I don't see how there's really any difference in terms of the story narrative or the reason why people dislike Trahearne becoming Pact Marshal. The reason why Trahearne is "a bad character" to most would be the fact Trahearne appears out of nowhere for most (aka non-sylvari) players. A different character doing the same thing would just redirect the hate and make Trahearne's role weird in regards to being partnered with the PC after the mentor's deaths.

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    my problem has to do with the distance separating the 2 dragons. one machine, right next to one dragon in Canada, and somehow affects another dragon in Mexico without any time delay? it would have been more believable to have another machine ((secretly developed by a certain Zojja)) in the Northern SHiverpeaks that tied into the ley lines to enable the energy transfer, than for me to accept that a little tiny machine is capable of focusing a laser beam on a moving dragon hundreds of miles away. it's a laser beam... those go in straight lines and lose strength the further they travel. laser beams don't fly like whimsical birds.

    if Jormag was resting on top of the volcano, i would have believed it. but she wasn't. she was across the sea, on the other side of the mountains, in another country.

    [...]

    the in-game explanation might appease you within the realms of "suspension of disbelief", but i don't accept it., and i never will. even if it is just another early plot point that wasn't fully fleshed out. trouble is, it totally broke the immersion for me.

    The idea was that Taimi's Machine wasn't using physical space, but was manipulating the energy via The All. Metaphysical mechanics of the world won't have the same issues or situations as the physical space. To quote Taimi:

    Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of Omadd's Machine.
    Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer...
    Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together.
    Taimi: Thus, cancelling them out. I.E. dragons go (death sound).

    Well, like other asura, she calls The All "Eternal Alchemy" (which isn't entirely accurate given the EA is the study of interworkings of the multiverse, while The All is the interworkings of the world - Eternal Alchemy is technically a much, much larger scale than The All). But that third line is the important bit - it isn't just "drain energy from dragon A, physically expose it to dragon B, work in reverse, rinse, repeat". Technically speaking, it didn't matter where the machine was, because it wasn't about physical location but about The All.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Victory or Death:
    Zojja: Stand aside. I have this.
    Second Mate Kajunk: Excuse me? This is a mist-cooled tripartate thautmatium energy weapon.
    Zojja: Uh-huh. With a lead tracer array set for draconic energy. Who do you think designed it?
    Zojja: I know how to handle this. I won't break it. Much.
    ****HERE****
    Second Mate Kajunk: Well it appears you have mistakenly inverted the transetheric capacitor. It's a common mistake among those not in the know. Let me fix it fo-
    Zojja: No! You addle-brained fool! Don't to--
    EXPLOSION
    Zojja: You idiot. Now our cannons wont work against the Elder Dragon.
    Rytlock: Suits me just fine, I came for a fight anyways.
    Logan: Here it comes around again! Everyone to the front of the airship and let's end this with a real fight!

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭

    It's been mentioned above but Destiny's Edge checking their smartphones in the back of the airship while I'm up to my butt in risen and dragon champs needs to be fixed.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The primary thing I'd change, would be Trahearne not becoming Pact Marshal. Instead, another character is written and developed that can take the position, allowing Trahearne to be better developed as he doesn't have to be "The Pact Marshal" and can have more focus on him developing his skills beyond his book learnin's.

    I don't see how there's really any difference in terms of the story narrative or the reason why people dislike Trahearne becoming Pact Marshal. The reason why Trahearne is "a bad character" to most would be the fact Trahearne appears out of nowhere for most (aka non-sylvari) players. A different character doing the same thing would just redirect the hate and make Trahearne's role weird in regards to being partnered with the PC after the mentor's deaths.

    1) Since the "Pact Marshal" role is mostly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, it lets this new person get to be boring and just do the military decision making.

    While also taking some of the focus off of the PS suddenly revolving around Trahearne, as he could be on par with the PC in terms of development rather than having to take much more focus because he has to become the Pact Marshal and do his Wyld Hunt.

    Trahearne had a lot more potential development beyond "Is Pact Marshal". He is one of the 12 Firstborn Sylvari. He was granted the legendary Caladbolg. He spent most of his life studying Orr. All of this could have been expanded on as he got combat experience from following you through Orr. But instead, his entire character ended up being boiled down to "Pact Marshal" where he inexplicably gains the respect and experience needed to lead a military force through Orr.

    This is further reinforced when after the PS his only appearances are to show up and be all "Hello, I am Pact Marshal" - During the Silverwastes content that's pretty much the extent of his character (He tells you to light the beacon at one point too! Wow, much development!) as well as the couple of times he pops up during the meeting of the city leaders where you go talk to him just so he can say he's representing the Pact by being there.

    In HoT he doesn't show up at all until you put a sword through his face...

    2) Trahearne appearing out of nowhere is only part of the reason why he's disliked. The other part is how the Personal Story shifts over to Trahearne which is exacerbated by their need to write him becoming Pact Marshal along with detailing his Wyld Hunt which is the reason that he even shows up in the first place (I.e. He was at Claw Island because he knew an attack was imminent based on his research into Orr and Zhaitan)

    Without him becoming Pact Marshal, there would be much less need to focus so much onto him because they'd only need to flesh out the details of his Wyld Hunt and the rest of the time they could develop more of the PC's side of things, with Trahearne assisting the PC in finding a way to defeat Zhaitan.

    3) Why would Trahearne's role become weird if he was partnered with the PC but not Pact Marshal? His presence is more easily justified if he's not the Pact Marshal. Since from a military standpoint, sending the number 1 and 2 of your entire military organization (The Pact Marshal and the Commander) into the same battle is so incredibly dumb it's unreal (This includes that time where they both go onto an airship with 1 other person, then fly out into the middle of the ocean to run experiments on the Eye of Zhaitan...)

    Meanwhile, Trahearne would be a huge asset working with the Pact due to his knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan, so being an advisor to the Pact Marshal would make a lot of sense. Then, because he has no formal combat experience, partnering him up with the PC who's made it that far by being really good at smashing things would also make a lot of sense, so the PC can protect him while he offers his insight into the land and the minions being faced.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    I would retcon Scarlet Briar to never have been a self insert mary sue turned into a cackling evil cosplay of Harley Quinn for the purpose of the story of the LWS1.
    She would never graduated from all three asuran colleges, never learned mechanics from a Charr, never learned smithing from a Norn.
    She would be one of the sylvaris that the Inquest captured to use in their experiment, and that would have awakened her link to Mordremoth.
    She would happen to be quite gifted at manipulating other people and align their interests to her plans, with some charisma to convince others to follow her.
    She would make others do all the work for her while helping them indirectly using that same charisma and manipulation as long as they work for her.
    She would not be cackling, nor would she looks insane, but serious and passionated.
    She would never monologue in front of us directly without any barrier or protection to keep us from reaching to her.
    She would never dismiss our actions as not having any bad consequences for us.
    During the Battle for Lion's Arch, in the Breachmaker, after getting a fatal blow. Scarlet would express gratitude, that she secretly hoped we would kill her. She would tell us she's sorry, exposing her as a tragic villain, dying while giving us the name of Mordremoth.

    I would retcon Balthazar last fight to have him get hit by one of Kralkatorrik's attack before we get to fight him 1 on 1.

    I would retcon Auren death. She would not die, but be injured. Her injures would be so heavy, she would turn into a seemingly dead crystallized statue, absorbing ambiant volatile magic to slowly recover, the link with Caithe broken as she absorbs the magic back. Foreshadowing how Kralkatorrik encase himself in crystal in Dragonfall.

    I would change the shape of Dragonfall to not be a rectangle.

    I would change the rebuilt Lion's Arch to not be a concrete seafood platter. I would rather see it as a mix'n match of all the races rebuilding some parts of the city.
    The Black Lion Trading Company would be a little charr metal fort because of Evon Gnashblade, with a giant cog harrow at the entrance.
    The bank would be made of asuran themed geometrically cut stone with little golem clerks and bigger golem guards.
    The crafting station would be in a norn styled wood covered place. The vaults would be fashioned like a norn lodge.
    Fort Marriner would be repaired and top with charr styled cannons.
    The grand plazza would be made with a glass covering similar to Divinity's Reach lower promenade.
    The port and the aerodrome would be fashioned in wattle and daub, with some cranes, crates, and wooden piers.
    Luminous plants would be used as street lights, and the Deverol gardens would host sylvari grown houses.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    I would have had Balthazar be Menzies.

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    I would have had Balthazar be Abbadon

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2020

    I would have let the end of the first battle with Krakaltoric as It ends in a star that guide us.

    Try to play War Eternal without waiting for the episode, an the effect it is like... Nope, It was a joke, Chewacca was in other spaceship.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    Eir Stegalkin's death is what I would change.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I would have had Balthazar be Menzies.

    Yep. The story would have worked just as well, if not better. Rytlock frees an in-chained Menzies and PoF results.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    Marshal Trahearne existence.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would have Balthazar not turn evil.
    Whom are my Warrior and Human Fire Elementalist supposed to worship now?

  • i'm tired, so please forgive me if this sounds brash. it's intended to sound funnier than it probably does (or doesn't)

    i see you are practicing your "beat a dead horse" skills... simply repeating the poorly thought out explanation doesn't bring the horse back to life, make it any better of an explanation, nor does it make it a logical one. it can be called rational, but not logical. there is a big difference. and thanks for reminding me exactly how bad the explanation is, and for reminding me that i have many more issues with the explanation. (it only STARTS with the trope of fire and ice magic being opposites that could cancel each other out...) i won't get into it all here, because it would take too much time, and i'd rather spend it enjoying the game content instead of feeling like i've been singled out for expressing an unpopular opinion (even though that's not your intention). if you don't understand why the explanation is immersion breaking to a former nuclear physics nerd , i'll simply quote Episode 1: "What? You think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that?"; I'll agree to disagree with you: you accept the explanation, and i don't. if you'd like to know ALL my reasons, then feel free to PM me and maybe, eventually, i'll get around to typing them all out. who knows? it could turn into a rather interesting conversation! but for now, I've said my piece and counted to three.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2020

    A long, long time ago we encountered a very specific mission in GW2.

    Soon after you lost your mentor to the dragon at Claw Island you go to Concordia to meet Trahearne for the first time, you go into the caves and get ambushed by someone smarter than any other risen you've encountered before and someone that seem to know tactics. Dialogue during the mission drop subtle hints like "The Orrians funneled us here. They've shown disturbingly advanced tactics ever since we arrived." and "Zhaitan knows everything its minions know.", which keep giving an ominous foreboding.

    At the end of the mission you go out of the cave and meet... Generic Boss NPC 5421. Really missed an opportunity there. He even says "The dragon commands, and we answer. All will serve Zhaitan!".

    I will still argue to this day that some Anet story dev had the intention of making a Risen Tybalt throwing rotten apples you.

    Yet they failed.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    A long, long time ago we encountered a very specific mission in GW2.

    Soon after you lost your mentor to the dragon at Claw Island you go to Concordia to meet Trahearne for the first time, you go into the caves and get ambushed by someone smarter than any other risen you've encountered before and someone that seem to know tactics. Dialogue during the mission drop subtle hints like "The Orrians funneled us here. They've shown disturbingly advanced tactics ever since we arrived." and "Zhaitan knows everything its minions know.", which keep giving an ominous foreboding.

    At the end of the mission you go out of the cave and meet... Generic Boss NPC 5421. Really missed an opportunity there. He even says "The dragon commands, and we answer. All will serve Zhaitan!".

    I will still argue to this day that some Anet story dev had the intention of making a Risen Tybalt throwing rotten apples you.

    Yet they failed.

    Seeing that the Priory mentor was a Sylvari, they shouldn't have the mentors reappear as Undead.
    They could have given only priory players a generic boss, but I don't think many would have liked that.

  • Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭

    That moment in Bound By Blood when Rytlock beats Bangar in his office.
    "Bangar Ruinbringer: Go ahead. Be imperator. All you have to do is rip out my throat."
    So... Rytlock kills Bangar, become an Imperator and then everyone would be happy.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    A long, long time ago we encountered a very specific mission in GW2.

    Soon after you lost your mentor to the dragon at Claw Island you go to Concordia to meet Trahearne for the first time, you go into the caves and get ambushed by someone smarter than any other risen you've encountered before and someone that seem to know tactics. Dialogue during the mission drop subtle hints like "The Orrians funneled us here. They've shown disturbingly advanced tactics ever since we arrived." and "Zhaitan knows everything its minions know.", which keep giving an ominous foreboding.

    At the end of the mission you go out of the cave and meet... Generic Boss NPC 5421. Really missed an opportunity there. He even says "The dragon commands, and we answer. All will serve Zhaitan!".

    I will still argue to this day that some Anet story dev had the intention of making a Risen Tybalt throwing rotten apples you.

    Yet they failed.

    Seeing that the Priory mentor was a Sylvari, they shouldn't have the mentors reappear as Undead.
    They could have given only priory players a generic boss, but I don't think many would have liked that.

    Even better then, that ditsy Sylvari could have willingly joined Zhaitan.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2020

    Caithe should have died in place of Eir.

    Caithe was down a really dark path entering HoT, and if she had sacrificed herself near the end instead of Eir, it could have been her redemption wrapped up nicely within 1 expansion and she wouldn't have been on story hiatus for 2 seasons and 1 expansion.

    Then they could have reserved Eir's death for a much later event to serve as a trigger for Brahm to "grow up" instead of having him moping around like an emo for 2 seasons.

    Also I hate how they decided to just drop Rox at the Omalkhans and now she's on story hiatus.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    i'm tired, so please forgive me if this sounds brash. it's intended to sound funnier than it probably does (or doesn't)

    You're right, it isn't funny. It's downright insulting.

    the explanation is immersion breaking to a former nuclear physics nerd

    Not sure what nuclear physics has to do with magic that sounds like it's literally warping spacetime to influence non-physical / metaphysical connections of entities that hold physical positions in the world. Because that sounds more like magic version of quantum physics to me, not nuclear.

    I mean, if you can explain why the awakening of an Elder Dragon can produce a new star in the sky with nuclear science, feel free to do so, but from what layman knowledge I know, nuclear isn't where I'd start with trying to apply physics to the Elder Dragons or Tyrian magic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Forgotten Legend.9281Forgotten Legend.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2020

    here's another go, using only stuff from the game, but also paraphrasing, without getting into nuclear science.

    edit: i brought up my being a "former nuclear physics nerd" mainly to signify that i tend to over-analyze things in my mind. (some people would be surprised to learn that nuclear physics and its chemistry actually explain a lot more about matter and energy and their conversion, than they'd presume. quantum physics still uses nuclear physics as its foundation. Elder Dragons obviously can manipulate matter and energy through the tools of magic, but the rules of matter and energy and their conversion appear to be very much the same in Tyria, but through the lens of magic as a tool. Electromagnetic Radiation, including soundwaves, lightwaves, (visible, UV, and IR), radiowaves, x-rays, microwaves, gamma rays, etc, and its correlation to energy and temperature and energy transfer can easily explain how fire and ice are not opposites to cancel each other out, but i can accept that in the realm of magic, any one kind of magic can be poison to one who consumes a different kind of magic)

    on to more on why i can't accept the "Primordus and Jormag went back to sleep explanation" [EDIT: my opinion has evolved, obviously. i used to accept that Primordus went back to sleep, but now i realize that doesn't make any sense either]

    ~Elder Dragons are basically magic batteries that drain while they sleep, until they get too low, (say 100,000) and then the dragons awakes, consume magic to recharge, and then go back to sleep once they've fully recharged. (say, 10,000,000) (yes, i know there's a lot more to it, but that's the watered down basics for the purpose of me trying to explain why i have a problem with the explanation given within the shown events)

    ~Omadd's modified machine*, is being used to smash Primordius' and Jormag's energies together, in order to kill them. (how is this done? essentially poisoning their fuel? draining it and swapping it, giving each other's weakness to each other, i can buy that explanation)

    ~Balthazar somehow consumes this magic as it's being swapped. (so, is the energy poisoning Jormag and Primordus, or is Balthazar absorbing it? okay, i'll buy that there's enough energy for both events to happen... since all 3 characters are cosmic level entities)

    ~Primordus is paralyzed temporarily during the energy swap , but Jormag doesn't seem to be ([Braham] says, "Taimi. What did the commander do to Jormag? Destiny's Edge—my guild—had it surrounded, and then... Suddenly, an anguished roar, and it returned to the ice." specifically under a mountain of ice, as Braham proclaims in the First City.) [edit: i guess the large distance had an impact after all]

    ~the dragons are awake, which means their alarm clocks (or programmed setpoints) were reached in the past, and they did not consume enough energy to trigger their sleep cycles again. their energies are somewhere in the middle (say 1,000,000 before Balthazar turns on the machine, say 200,000 after)

    ~Primordus' energy level, after the machine explodes... is "pre-awakened levels"... (200,000... has to be higher than the 100,000 alarm clock level, otherwise the energy level would be awakening level) so any assumption that Primordius and Jormag went back to sleep, cannot be correct... because their magic levels never went high enough to trigger their sleep cycle. AND their energy levels are still higher than their wake-up alarm. their energy levels stayed in the middle somewhere. basically... the event simply made them both sick to their stomachs, and they retreated to their respective bathrooms to vomit in the toilet, take some dragon antacid, and then make a new plan on how to retaliate. (this is why the Icebrood Saga has now started... Jormag has recovered enough to start the new plan... if she went back to sleep, there shouldn't be so many icebrood charr in the Frost Legion. Drakkar is dead, so he can't be making them.)

    ~it appears that Braham is the one mostly assuming the dragons went back to sleep.... Braham, the least scientific member of the main cast... and i guess everyone else is playing along for some reason, but forgot to wink at the camera? [edit: okay, sure... Taimi said "night night" to primordus, too. but still, you'd think she'd know better, which makes it even worse]

    i stand by my opinion that the better explanation is that both dragons retreated, than to say they went back to sleep. you will not change my mind no matter how many times you repeat dialogue from the story.

    ASTERISK: Omadd's Machine is another tale altogether, there being very little information about it. only that it gave 2 individuals (Caera and The Commander) visions, and that Omadd set it up near the ley line "hotspot" underneath Dry Top. Taimi stripped some parts from it, added her own, and added programming based on her spectrum studies. there's no explanation as to how it originally worked: was it simply a mind-to-leyline- interface device? was it a portal into a previously unseen part of the Mists? was it a mind meld with Tyria (the planet itself)? was it a way to allow someone to exist in two different "dimensions" simultaneously? for it to manipulate so much magic at so large a radius, it essentially has higher-than-god-level of magic, as Taimi once again "Wesley Crushers" a solution that no one else can think of. (and apparently, Taimi has re-engineered the machine to no longer need proximity to the ley lines.)

    i still have a problem with the machine being able to manipulate Jormag from so far away without some sort of visible portal (Balthazar could have opened a portal the way Kalla's f2 skill animates on Revenant's Renegade e-spec, he IS a god who IS gifted at opening portals to the mists, as is demonstrated by Kralkatorric after Balthazar's death) a simple open portal would have been enough to fix this problem for me, and keep me immersed. i wouldn't have cared anything about Omadd's Machine exuding higher-than-god-levels of control over the universe if there was simply a portal showing a little bit of snow.

    PS: i guess i've now counted to 4, and i would say that the event of an elder dragon awakening didn't actually create a new star, but rather a higher entity created the star to mark the occasion, after all, there's probably going to be a new threat after all the Elder Dragons are dealt with...

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2020

    Jormag confirms it is asleep and “dreaming” in episode 1 when it talks with the Commander. There is no ambivalence in whether it retreated or went to sleep. It went to sleep. Choosing not to accept it is your choice, but it remains the case that the Dragons were put to sleep. My only issue is that somehow Jormag moved from nearby Bitterfrost to north of where we currently are.

    As interesting as some of your perspective is, too much emphasis is put on scientific rationale. Omadds machine works from a distance because the story needs it to. It may sound flimsy, but in magical fantasy worlds, sometimes that is all the explanation that is needed. Trying to bring real works physics to a magical fantasy realm and apply it everywhere will not work. They already tried messing things up by throwing in all this tedious “The All” nonsense without us throwing in actual nuclear physics as well

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    My only issue is that somehow Jormag moved from nearby Bitterfrost to north of where we currently are.

    Maybe it's a bit like sharks and only half of the brain is asleep, while the other half is awake.
    Or maybe Jormag sleep"walked".

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2020

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    ~Elder Dragons are basically magic batteries that drain while they sleep, until they get too low, (say 100,000) and then the dragons awakes, consume magic to recharge, and then go back to sleep once they've fully recharged. (say, 10,000,000) (yes, i know there's a lot more to it, but that's the watered down basics for the purpose of me trying to explain why i have a problem with the explanation given within the shown events)
    [...]
    ~the dragons are awake, which means their alarm clocks (or programmed setpoints) were reached in the past, and they did not consume enough energy to trigger their sleep cycles again. their energies are somewhere in the middle (say 1,000,000 before Balthazar turns on the machine, say 200,000 after)

    ~Primordus' energy level, after the machine explodes... is "pre-awakened levels"... (200,000... has to be higher than the 100,000 alarm clock level, otherwise the energy level would be awakening level) so any assumption that Primordius and Jormag went back to sleep, cannot be correct... because their magic levels never went high enough to trigger their sleep cycle. AND their energy levels are still higher than their wake-up alarm. their energy levels stayed in the middle somewhere. basically... the event simply made them both sick to their stomachs, and they retreated to their respective bathrooms to vomit in the toilet, take some dragon antacid, and then make a new plan on how to retaliate. (this is why the Icebrood Saga has now started... Jormag has recovered enough to start the new plan... if she went back to sleep, there shouldn't be so many icebrood charr in the Frost Legion. Drakkar is dead, so he can't be making them.)

    [swapped points around due to their relation - one response for all three]
    This isn't entirely accurate. Like you say, that's 'watered down' and by watering it down to that point, you actually get it wrong. You miss two critical things:

    The Elder Dragons consume magic to wake up. To fulfill this role, they have "Herald" champions (there's a reason why Glint's revenant elite spec is called Herald). The Great Destroyer, Drakkar, Glint, Scarlet (an impromptu herald) - and it seems the Risen Giganticus Lupicus in Arah - all fulfilled this role. They took magic from others/the world and fed it to their Elder Dragon when they were close to awakening. Drakkar, for example, took magic from the Sons of Svanir cult as explained in Edge of Destiny novel. However, the fact that the Great Destroyer died in the process, and Glint was purified and betrayed Kralkatorrik while it slept, delayed both of those dragons' awakening by about 50 years.

    The other critical aspect is that the Elder Dragons don't go to sleep because they're full, they go to sleep because there's nothing left to sustain them.

    In short: yes, the Elder Dragons drain while they sleep, and eat while they wake, but it's important to remember: They need magic to wake, and need magic to stay awake.

    So stripping them of magic will weaken them, and strip them of enough magic, and they're forced into hibernative states. And similarly, pre-awakening levels of magic < awakening levels of magic.

    Re: Frost Legion being made - Drakkar isn't the only icebrood-maker. Any dragon champion is capable of making dragon minions in large enough numbers. Thus, that Claw of Jormag we've seen flying about could just as easily be the culprit as some new Fraenir or other high-level shaman of the Sons of Svanir as much as Jormag itself. Impossible to know atm.

    ~Omadd's modified machine*, is being used to smash Primordius' and Jormag's energies together, in order to kill them. (how is this done? essentially poisoning their fuel? draining it and swapping it, giving each other's weakness to each other, i can buy that explanation)

    ~Balthazar somehow consumes this magic as it's being swapped. (so, is the energy poisoning Jormag and Primordus, or is Balthazar absorbing it? okay, i'll buy that there's enough energy for both events to happen... since all 3 characters are cosmic level entities)

    For clarity, Taimi's Machine was doing a pure draing-and-swap. Balthazar "skims off the top" of that transferring magic. There is no "poisoning" since Jormag's magic is naturally bad for Primordus and vice versa (because reasons - same for why death magic is harmful to chak so they filter it out) but neither is harmful to Balthazar.

    ~it appears that Braham is the one mostly assuming the dragons went back to sleep.... Braham, the least scientific member of the main cast... and i guess everyone else is playing along for some reason, but forgot to wink at the camera? [edit: okay, sure... Taimi said "night night" to primordus, too. but still, you'd think she'd know better, which makes it even worse]

    Taimi does confirm it herself in Episode 6 (same dialogue as her reading Braham's letter), and Jormag also established it as true in S5E1 ("as I dream beneath the ice").

    i stand by my opinion that the better explanation is that both dragons retreated, than to say they went back to sleep. you will not change my mind no matter how many times you repeat dialogue from the story.

    If by "retreat" you mean "went into a protective, immobile state" then I'd agree. The description for Jormag matches almost to a T the state Kralkatorrik enters after taking too much damage in Dragonfall - it covers itself in a crystal cocoon to avoid being harmed, and consumes magic to heal itself. It's entirely plausible that this is "all sleeping states" for the Elder Dragons (not enough info to be sure), and Jormag "sinking beneath a mountain of ice" could very well be Jormag's equivalent.

    But for all intents and purposes, being in a coma is little different from sleeping.

    i still have a problem with the machine being able to manipulate Jormag from so far away without some sort of visible portal

    I still think the issue is that you're stuck thinking about physical locations, and not thinking about metaphysics.

    I mean, by the same line of thinking, you should be flipping tables over the fact that the inside of Kralkatorrik looks like this and not some digestive tract - I mean, hell, that's his heart floating in the center; how does it pump his blood if it's just a floating ball? And Kralkatorrik does bleed, given the whole Dragonsblood weapons plot. It isn't even the first time we were told "the elder dragons are more magical than physical" or "The Elder Dragons represent a force much larger than their material form would suggest."

    PS: i guess i've now counted to 4, and i would say that the event of an elder dragon awakening didn't actually create a new star, but rather a higher entity created the star to mark the occasion, after all, there's probably going to be a new threat after all the Elder Dragons are dealt with...

    It's not just a new star being made, but constellations being altered, and even the world's auroras seem to have been altered:

    Their awakening moves the Antikytheria, which in turn has tangible effects. [....] The translator concludes that the jotun were implying that the constellations themselves are altered by awakening of Elder Dragons.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rising_Stars

    I've been up all night watching the auroras, huge serpents of color, slithering across the sky. [...] You think I'm crazy, but they've changed since Jormag rose. Did you know that? They're darker now. They're warning us.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kyril_Stansturm
    [This just off the top of my head.]

    The fact that the Elder Dragons' state of being alters the sky and global phenomena shows that they're not your typical massively powerful entity. Which is an important thing to consider with the fact that Taimi's Machine is utilizing The All / Antikytheria to expose Jormag and Primordus to each others' magic, and not physical distance to do so.

    Sure, it's theoretically plausible that there's some superpowered entity that's been watching the world of Tyria for the past 20,000+ years and ticking off every Elder Dragon awakening by making a star, shifting the constellations, and darkening the auroras of the world. But I find it much more plausible that the Elder Dragons' connection to the Antikytheria results in the visage of the stars becoming altered.

    Especially when we consider that the stars supposedly hold prophecies about world events and that souls can become constellations, it seems it's much more reasonable to believe that the stars in GW are more of a coded reflection of the world than someone's actively messing with the structure of the universe thousands of lightyears away based on the events of one lonely world.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    My only issue is that somehow Jormag moved from nearby Bitterfrost to north of where we currently are.

    Well, there was some time passing between Episode 3 and Episode 5, so one could argue that Braham somehow made Jormag move.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, there was some time passing between Episode 3 and Episode 5, so one could argue that Braham somehow made Jormag move.

    Well, technically speaking, it was only mentioned that it was "believed" that Jormag had taken up residence near Bitterfrost. Per Elder Ulf. His belief was apparently wrong, or, as mentioned, Jormag moved in the time between when that comment was made, and Braham went to go fight him.

    One could argue Jormag went more south to try to soak up some more of that delicious magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth's deaths, and then went a bit back north after he got all he could from being so far away, but still in his controlled zone.

  • Forgotten Legend.9281Forgotten Legend.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    In short: yes, the Elder Dragons drain while they sleep, and eat while they wake, but it's important to remember: They need magic to wake, and need magic to stay awake.

    So stripping them of magic will weaken them, and strip them of enough magic, and they're forced into hibernative states. And similarly, pre-awakening levels of magic < awakening levels of magic.

    i would like to see the source quote. it's said in-game (i'm paraphrasing) that the longer a being lives, the more magic it has, the stronger in magic it becomes. but needing magic to stay awake is something new to me. i don't recall that concept anywhere in-game. is it possible they go back to sleep because there's nothing left to consume (conquer)? so they get bored? and actively choose to return to sleep? (for example: in WvW, if your side owned all the zones on all the borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds, and no enemies to fight, you might get bored and log off for the night, potential rewards notwithstanding)

    if they need so much magic to stay awake, they become much less of the world-ending-threat that they've been hyped up to be. because the answer to defeat them is to simply take all magical beings from Tyria into a safe zone in the Mists until the dragons go back to sleep. i'm sure Taimi's Machine could be modified to force this event while hooked up to the ley-line network (and hence all the waypoints and Asura Gates.) /end sarcasm

    this is one more explanation that while it may be cannon, seems silly to me. about as silly as Kasmeer suddenly being able to mind meld with an elder dragon to make it sleep (like in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, or Avengers: Infinity War), but at least that Kasmeer thing would be forgiven as a pop-culture reference.

    ~Omadd's modified machine*, is being used to smash Primordius' and Jormag's energies together, in order to kill them. (how is this done? essentially poisoning their fuel? draining it and swapping it, giving each other's weakness to each other, i can buy that explanation)

    ~Balthazar somehow consumes this magic as it's being swapped. (so, is the energy poisoning Jormag and Primordus, or is Balthazar absorbing it? okay, i'll buy that there's enough energy for both events to happen... since all 3 characters are cosmic level entities)

    For clarity, Taimi's Machine was doing a pure draing-and-swap. Balthazar "skims off the top" of that transferring magic. There is no "poisoning" since Jormag's magic is naturally bad for Primordus and vice versa (because reasons - same for why death magic is harmful to chak so they filter it out) but neither is harmful to Balthazar.

    naturally bad for each other.... in other words: Jormag's energy is poison (metaphorically and maybe even literally) to Primordus, and vice versa.... it's the same effect.

    ~it appears that Braham is the one mostly assuming the dragons went back to sleep.... Braham, the least scientific member of the main cast... and i guess everyone else is playing along for some reason, but forgot to wink at the camera? [edit: okay, sure... Taimi said "night night" to primordus, too. but still, you'd think she'd know better, which makes it even worse]

    Taimi does confirm it herself in Episode 6 (same dialogue as her reading Braham's letter), and Jormag also established it as true in S5E1 ("as I dream beneath the ice").

    Jormag said she dreams beneath the ice. she's an expert persuader, which implies that she uses half-truths. saying that she "dreams", can imply that she is "imagining" something. maybe she means she's dreaming of the day she no longer has enemies...

    i can picture Canach rolling his eyes and sarcastically whispering "I am asleep, too, Commander. Since i "told" you i'm asleep, it "must" be true!" then i imagine him reminding the Commander of the obvious, which the Commander obviously didn't think of. "This reminds me of Mordremoth's telepathic persuasions. Except that Jormag whispers instead of shouting. I guess Jormag learned more than only Mordemoth's magic when he died." and i also imagine Taimi getting really excited and she'dd probably try to work out how Dragons are still conscious enough to converse intelligently with others, while they're still unconscious, and then try to modify Omadd's machine again, in order to beat Jormag the same way we beat Mordremoth: in her dreams.

    i stand by my opinion that the better explanation is that both dragons retreated, than to say they went back to sleep. you will not change my mind no matter how many times you repeat dialogue from the story.

    If by "retreat" you mean "went into a protective, immobile state" then I'd agree. The description for Jormag matches almost to a T the state Kralkatorrik enters after taking too much damage in Dragonfall - it covers itself in a crystal cocoon to avoid being harmed, and consumes magic to heal itself. It's entirely plausible that this is "all sleeping states" for the Elder Dragons (not enough info to be sure), and Jormag "sinking beneath a mountain of ice" could very well be Jormag's equivalent.

    But for all intents and purposes, being in a coma is little different from sleeping.

    by "retreat" i mean "leave the battlefield without defeating the enemy."

    being in a coma is also much different than holding a conversation with your enemy.

    Kralkotorrik's state in Dragonfall can be described as "Crystal Hibernation" as mentioned earlier in this thread. and during this state, Kralkatorrik communicated with the Commander and Aurene. it could be argued that Kralkatorrik was in a different state than when he was "sleeping" for those thousands of years. there is no evidence of any of the elder dragons communicating with anyone during their long slumbers. (and your explanations above, that their Heralds wake them up, implies they are able to collect magic on their own, without their masters' direct actions, i inferring that direct communication during this time is not needed) This could be a state when he is actively concentrating in order to heal.

    i would argue the same for Jormag and Primordus. i would argue that it's better to say that they are merely in a regenerative state, consciously concentrating their energies on healing, rather than being in the long , coma-like slumber between awakenings. especially since Jormag actively communicates with mortal enemies (the Commander and allies) during this healing state. but hey, maybe elder dragons can still talk while they're in a coma. /end sarcasm

    i still have a problem with the machine being able to manipulate Jormag from so far away without some sort of visible portal

    I still think the issue is that you're stuck thinking about physical locations, and not thinking about metaphysics.

    the trouble is, there's plenty of ways already established in-game to illustrate it without getting into metaphysics. i mean, come on... if nuclear physics shouldn't be discussed in this conversation, then neither should metaphysics. a simple portal could explain it to people who don't want to learn metaphysics. "The All" never needed to be invented, since there's already The Mists, and portals accessing the Mists. and waypoints and ley lines and Asura gates. replacing The All with The Mists in all the dialogue options would have made more sense, because we've had 7+ years of Mists lore in-game already. (many more when including GW1)

    PS: i also admitted that the long distance DID affect the power of Taimi's Machine against Jormag, since she wasn't paralyzed by the energy swap like Primordus was.

    I mean, by the same line of thinking, you should be flipping tables over the fact that the inside of Kralkatorrik looks like this and not some digestive tract - I mean, hell, that's his heart floating in the center; how does it pump his blood if it's just a floating ball? And Kralkatorrik does bleed, given the whole Dragonsblood weapons plot. It isn't even the first time we were told "the elder dragons are more magical than physical" or "The Elder Dragons represent a force much larger than their material form would suggest."

    except that dragons are already discussed (many times) as beings that consume magic from the very beginning... and are supposedly more powerful than the human pantheon of gods. that's why the gods left Tyria. i can accept their anatomies in this fantasy realm as they are presented... magic warps their minds, it can warp their bodies as well. though i doubt that these dragons had "normal" anatomies to begin with, and that their current state is probably their natural state. why should i flip tables over established concepts in the fantasy realm? Omadd's Machine started off utilizing established concepts, and then all of a sudden, became something that ignored established concepts, with rushed explanations (The All) that were contrived "just to move the plot along." After all, it originally needed a certain proximity to Ley Lines, and all of a sudden it didn't?

    PS: i also admitted that the long distance DID affect the power of Taimi's Machine against Jormag, since she wasn't paralyzed by the energy swap like Primordus was.

    and to reiterate my opinion. i don't like the explanation that Jormag and Primordus were sent back to sleep. i'm not arguing whether or not its cannon that they are asleep, or that Omadd's modified Machine triggered the event. ANET wrote that they are. i'm saying that it's contrived, unnecessarily vague writing that allows for better explanations from established existing lore. ( the writing has gotten better over the years though ) Jormag is still actively persuading new followers as though she's awake. I would prefer that they were said to have tactically retreated to prepare for their next assaults.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Roche.7491Roche.7491 Member ✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    Aurene. The concept of chosen one, visions or destiny is just too uncreative.

    Its safe to assume that aurene will defeat all the dragons in the end without even playing the game.

    They should name Aurene Autowin instead.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Genesis.8572 said:
    Kinda surprised no one has said "Logan stayed to fight Kraalkatorik" as one of the big "what if" moments. Would Queen Jennah have survived? Would Glint? What then of Aurene and Vlast? How would that have affected the current balance of power with the dragons?

    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    i would like to see the source quote. it's said in-game (i'm paraphrasing) that the longer a being lives, the more magic it has, the stronger in magic it becomes. but needing magic to stay awake is something new to me. i don't recall that concept anywhere in-game. is it possible they go back to sleep because there's nothing left to consume (conquer)? so they get bored? and actively choose to return to sleep?

    I don't think it's ever established that they choose to sleep, but as for them sleeping because there's no more magic left, almost every source about them going back to sleep says this - though some, like Glint in EoD, pair this with "they are sated" - ironically, those same characters, sometimes in the same dialogue, state that the Elder Dragons are insatiable. You can't sleep because you're sated if you're insatiable, and we have far more evidence telling us they're insatiable (magic addiction is real yo). I'll have to dig for the most explicit example as it's been ages and there are many mentions of them sleeping once there's no more magic in the world and I don't recall of the top of my head which ones word it how.

    As for needing magic to rise - EoD via Eir established that Drakkar fed Jormag magic;; it is also established with Season 1's ending, where Scarlet sent a bunch of magic to Mordremoth which led to his rise. If feeding the Elder Dragons magic led to them hibernating, then the ending of Season 1 itself makes no more sense than the ending of Flashpoint. There are other, less certain, sources for such as well but those are the two most direct.

    As for "the longer a being lives, the more magic it has, the stronger in magic it becomes" - I don't recall this ever being established. Nor does it really make sense. I mean, Joko was alive for quite some time before losing to Turai, and was alive for over 5 centuries by the time the Commander fights them, but Joko only barely won that 1-on-1 battle. Even Livia didn't seem that powerful, despite being over 250 years old; and in GW1, Magi Malaquire is hinted to be a millennia old but shows no excessive power. Heck, most of the Forgotten are very old - centuries or millennia - as well as most Margonites - and they're not very powerful overall. Which immediately pulls that statement into question.

    The closest to that statement I remember is Ogden's line about Glint in Hidden Arcana about her being "well on her way" to becoming an Elder Dragon due to her age and magic. But those two aren't connected in his dialogue iirc.

    if they need so much magic to stay awake, they become much less of the world-ending-threat that they've been hyped up to be. because the answer to defeat them is to simply take all magical beings from Tyria into a safe zone in the Mists until the dragons go back to sleep. i'm sure Taimi's Machine could be modified to force this event while hooked up to the ley-line network (and hence all the waypoints and Asura Gates.) /end sarcasm

    In a way, that's exactly what the elder races did. They reduced the magic in the world by creating the Bloodstone, then went into hiding until the Elder Dragons went to sleep due to nothing more to consume to maintain them. As it shows, this is not a great option, and leads to rather boring storytelling.

    Though about taking people into the Mists... that's no simple feat, it must be established. Outside of the very recent discovery by asura to make those WvW asura gates, and the mursaat's magic to slip halfway into the Mists, the only means to access the Mists was through divine or divine-like entities such as the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, Koda, etc. And only the Six have shown capable of taking large numbers. So global exodus into the Mists is simply not a viable option - and that's overlooking those who would refuse to go for xyz reason, or an entire globe's worth of population capability of surviving in the Mists where living beings aren't meant to be.

    being in a coma is also much different than holding a conversation with your enemy.
    [...]
    there is no evidence of any of the elder dragons communicating with anyone during their long slumbers.

    So by your argument, Mordremoth wasn't asleep before being woken up by Scarlet at the end of Season 1, as he had been in mental communication with her for nearly a decade beforehand.

    Nor was Kralkatorrik asleep before waking up and tracking down Glint. (He had to know Glint betrayed him somehow.)

    It would seem that, for Elder Dragons, sleep != mental inactivity. Even when sleeping for a millennia. Which isn't very hard to believe, imo.

    (and your explanations above, that their Heralds wake them up, implies they are able to collect magic on their own, without their masters' direct actions, i inferring that direct communication during this time is not needed)

    If we take Kormir's statement during Facing the Truth at, well, face value, then Primordus would have been the one to send the Great Destroyer into action, as Kormir establishes that Primordus sensed the sudden and temporary increase in magic, not its minions.

    the trouble is, there's plenty of ways already established in-game to illustrate it without getting into metaphysics. i mean, come on... if nuclear physics shouldn't be discussed in this conversation, then neither should metaphysics. a simple portal could explain it to people who don't want to learn metaphysics. "The All" never needed to be invented, since there's already The Mists, and portals accessing the Mists. and waypoints and ley lines and Asura gates. replacing The All with The Mists in all the dialogue options would have made more sense, because we've had 7+ years of Mists lore in-game already. (many more when including GW1)

    PS: i also admitted that the long distance DID affect the power of Taimi's Machine against Jormag, since she wasn't paralyzed by the energy swap like Primordus was.

    The difference between utilizing metaphysics and nuclear physics in this discussion is that The All literally is what metaphysics' basic focus is: abstract concepts of the world's functionality. There might be better terminology to use, but it is a sufficient term. And there's no need "to learn metaphysics" since it's just a surface level conceptualization which is explicitly told to the player at the beginning of the episode: the machine utilizes the Elder Dragons' establishment in The All and pieces from Omadd's Machine which "somehow" connected to The All in order to expose the Elder Dragons to each others' weaknesses.

    Whether one puts The All under "it's metaphysics!" or "it's magic!" Ultimately... that's what it is. It isn't a solid, physical thing in Tyria.

    As to "The All was never needed because we have The Mists". Well, the two serve different purposes ultimately. Simply put, The Mists is a separate entity from Tyria, and the role for The All / Antikytheria is, simply put, Tyria itself. Would be like saying "the planet doesn't need an atmosphere, wind currents, and magnetic poles, we have solar systems and galaxies!"

    Side note about Jormag and being paralyzed: while it isn't mentioned, there's enough of a lack of details that Jormag could have been and it not being out of place. I was going to mention this before but felt it detracted too much and the post was too long.

    except that dragons are already discussed (many times) as beings that consume magic from the very beginning... and are supposedly more powerful than the human pantheon of gods. that's why the gods left Tyria. i can accept their anatomies in this fantasy realm as they are presented... magic warps their minds, it can warp their bodies as well. though i doubt that these dragons had "normal" anatomies to begin with, and that their current state is probably their natural state. why should i flip tables over established concepts in the fantasy realm? Omadd's Machine started off utilizing established concepts, and then all of a sudden, became something that ignored established concepts, with rushed explanations (The All) that were contrived "just to move the plot along." After all, it originally needed a certain proximity to Ley Lines, and all of a sudden it didn't?

    1. If the Elder Dragons' fantastical anatomy doesn't bother you, then why does a Taimi's Machine does "because it doesn't make scientific sense" when it's explained to be, well, fantastical too?
    2. The All was established firmly in Season 2 but hinted at in Season 1, at the same points in time that all the other bits about Omadd's Machine and ley lines. Omadd's Machien, ley lines, and The All were all introduced in varying increments at the same time. It wasn't hedgepodged in suddenly with Season 3 to move the plot along - if anything was, it would have been "the Elder Dragons consume dead dragons' magic" and "three dragons die, the world dies" were.
    3. Technically nothing says Taimi's Machine (which isn't Omadd's Machine but only uses pieces of it) doesn't need ley lines. We only see it in two areas, Rata Novus and Titan's Throat, and both are big ley line hubs. No need to bring it up since it never became an issue. Hell, maybe that's why Balthazar brought the machine in front of Primordus - because he needed a huge ley-line hub. If he didn't, he could have activated it anywhere (and we wouldn't have gotten the in-the-moment awesome cameo of fighting in front of an Elder Dragon - obviously "rule of cool" took root here but...).

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    Scarlet Briar would have survived and Taimi would be dead instead.
    Lion's Arch would not be rebuild as a heartless city ("concrete seafood platter", as someone wrote, is a good description of what it is now).

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  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

    Jennah created a shield and protected Divinity's Reach.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah
    "Queen Jennah used her powerful mesmer magic and created a gigantic mesmer shield, that protected the whole Divinity's Reach from the cannonballs."

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

    Jennah created a shield and protected Divinity's Reach.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah
    "Queen Jennah used her powerful mesmer magic and created a gigantic mesmer shield, that protected the whole Divinity's Reach from the cannonballs."

    The wiki isn't an end-all-be-all source of accuracy. It's written by fans. Unless it's a verbatime quote like in Dialogue sections, it's worded entirely by the fans. And in some cases, they can get it wrong.

    This is one of those cases. To quote the game:

    Queen Jennah: We've prepared for many contingencies. There are some defenses ready to set up right outside the chamber. Quickly!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers#At_The_Upper_City

    The giant dome was one of those defenses prepared beforehand, one she was able to activate instantly. I mean, you can just look at the dome and tell it's a mixture of mesmer and guardian magic, and Jennah is no guardian.

    She is a powerful mesmer, but not powerful enough to ward off an army when she's been incapacitated from trying to look into the mind of an Elder Dragon. In that battle, she needed time. Time to prepare that powerful illusion (no doubt with Anise's help though such isn't mentioned), and this is time that Logan gave her. The branded were literally breaking down the door to the keep where Jennah was when Logan returned to the battle with the charr prisoners. Without Logan and those charr fighting the branded, Jennah would have been killed while recoperating from looking into Kralkatorrik's mind.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

    Jennah created a shield and protected Divinity's Reach.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah
    "Queen Jennah used her powerful mesmer magic and created a gigantic mesmer shield, that protected the whole Divinity's Reach from the cannonballs."

    The wiki isn't an end-all-be-all source of accuracy. It's written by fans. Unless it's a verbatime quote like in Dialogue sections, it's worded entirely by the fans. And in some cases, they can get it wrong.

    This is one of those cases. To quote the game:

    Queen Jennah: We've prepared for many contingencies. There are some defenses ready to set up right outside the chamber. Quickly!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers#At_The_Upper_City

    The giant dome was one of those defenses prepared beforehand, one she was able to activate instantly. I mean, you can just look at the dome and tell it's a mixture of mesmer and guardian magic, and Jennah is no guardian.

    She is a powerful mesmer, but not powerful enough to ward off an army when she's been incapacitated from trying to look into the mind of an Elder Dragon. In that battle, she needed time. Time to prepare that powerful illusion (no doubt with Anise's help though such isn't mentioned), and this is time that Logan gave her. The branded were literally breaking down the door to the keep where Jennah was when Logan returned to the battle with the charr prisoners. Without Logan and those charr fighting the branded, Jennah would have been killed while recoperating from looking into Kralkatorrik's mind.

    At 13:00 in the video it is Jennah who creates the bubble to protect the city

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

    Jennah created a shield and protected Divinity's Reach.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah
    "Queen Jennah used her powerful mesmer magic and created a gigantic mesmer shield, that protected the whole Divinity's Reach from the cannonballs."

    The wiki isn't an end-all-be-all source of accuracy. It's written by fans. Unless it's a verbatime quote like in Dialogue sections, it's worded entirely by the fans. And in some cases, they can get it wrong.

    This is one of those cases. To quote the game:

    Queen Jennah: We've prepared for many contingencies. There are some defenses ready to set up right outside the chamber. Quickly!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers#At_The_Upper_City

    The giant dome was one of those defenses prepared beforehand, one she was able to activate instantly. I mean, you can just look at the dome and tell it's a mixture of mesmer and guardian magic, and Jennah is no guardian.

    She is a powerful mesmer, but not powerful enough to ward off an army when she's been incapacitated from trying to look into the mind of an Elder Dragon. In that battle, she needed time. Time to prepare that powerful illusion (no doubt with Anise's help though such isn't mentioned), and this is time that Logan gave her. The branded were literally breaking down the door to the keep where Jennah was when Logan returned to the battle with the charr prisoners. Without Logan and those charr fighting the branded, Jennah would have been killed while recoperating from looking into Kralkatorrik's mind.

    -snip video-

    At 13:00 in the video it is Jennah who creates the bubble to protect the city

    Yes, I watched the cinematic again before making my post. But congratulations on not reading anything I wrote. I never denied that it was Jennah who activated the barrier.

    If you decide to read this time, riddle me this: how does a mesmer use guardian in their magic?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

    She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.

    Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

    Jennah created a shield and protected Divinity's Reach.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah
    "Queen Jennah used her powerful mesmer magic and created a gigantic mesmer shield, that protected the whole Divinity's Reach from the cannonballs."

    The wiki isn't an end-all-be-all source of accuracy. It's written by fans. Unless it's a verbatime quote like in Dialogue sections, it's worded entirely by the fans. And in some cases, they can get it wrong.

    This is one of those cases. To quote the game:

    Queen Jennah: We've prepared for many contingencies. There are some defenses ready to set up right outside the chamber. Quickly!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Meeting_of_Ministers#At_The_Upper_City

    The giant dome was one of those defenses prepared beforehand, one she was able to activate instantly. I mean, you can just look at the dome and tell it's a mixture of mesmer and guardian magic, and Jennah is no guardian.

    She is a powerful mesmer, but not powerful enough to ward off an army when she's been incapacitated from trying to look into the mind of an Elder Dragon. In that battle, she needed time. Time to prepare that powerful illusion (no doubt with Anise's help though such isn't mentioned), and this is time that Logan gave her. The branded were literally breaking down the door to the keep where Jennah was when Logan returned to the battle with the charr prisoners. Without Logan and those charr fighting the branded, Jennah would have been killed while recoperating from looking into Kralkatorrik's mind.

    -snip video-

    At 13:00 in the video it is Jennah who creates the bubble to protect the city

    Yes, I watched the cinematic again before making my post. But congratulations on not reading anything I wrote. I never denied that it was Jennah who activated the barrier.

    If you decide to read this time, riddle me this: how does a mesmer use guardian in their magic?

    Then excuse me but I'm not understanding what you mean.
    I read the link and the conversation mentioned in your previous post occurs after she creates the bubble she shows in the video, so I'm really not understanding the connection between Guardian Magic with what she does initially.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Then excuse me but I'm not understanding what you mean.
    I read the link and the conversation mentioned in your previous post occurs after she creates the bubble she shows in the video, so I'm really not understanding the connection between Guardian Magic with what she does initially.

    You can visually see that the dome is the combination of having the purple segmented dome effect of Feedback, and the blue smooth dome effect of Sanctuary. This is more visible in Lake Doric or the DR story instances than the fast-action shots of the cinematic.

    The smaller barriers she actives are the same - there's mesmer puple and guardian blue in all of them (and the visual shape is even that of Wall of Reflection).

    And as she establishes, these weren't created and maintained by her on the fly, but defenses that were prepared beforehand. She might not have even made the spells in the first place, given how many mesmers are in her employ.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.