Why there are so many Charr plot in the Jormag story arc and Norn got pushed aside? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why there are so many Charr plot in the Jormag story arc and Norn got pushed aside?

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 15, 2020 in Lore

Shouldn't the Jormag arc focused on Norn, Kodan and Jotun? What the heck is with all the Charr stuff.

We got a lot to see about Son of Svanir and the Lost Spirits. Jotun/Kodan lore could also be explored. There are so many rich plot setup in the personal story for Jormag and most of them are simply discarded in Icebrood Saga.

Comments

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Chill. Its not even close to end

  • I also think they're focusing on different races intentionally. Human was focused on when the bloodstone exploded, sylvari focused on with mordremoth, asura with rata novus, charr and norn with this... might be a little simplified but it seems like a pattern to me

  • Randin.5701Randin.5701 Member ✭✭

    Because Kralkatorik got used in a human-centric story arc, so they needed to find somewhere else to give charr their time in the sun.

    Naturally, going off that, asura will take the lead in Cantha, while the norn will do so when fighting Primordus.

    More seriously, there has been norn stuff in Icebrood, and I imagine will see more once we get to the next zone.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like this episode showed even more disregard for Norn than previous ones.
    The Great Spirits have been done dirty.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I feel like this episode showed even more disregard for Norn than previous ones.
    The Great Spirits have been done dirty.

    What? Like half the episode was Norn stuff, and how were the spitis done dirty? Do people even know what the phrase means?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Keep in mind the Norn are not a unified society.. they have no army or military structure or even a rulling Government, they're mostly hunters and they are very individualistic.

    It's extremely rare that Norn band together and form an army to fight anything and while they've done this a few times against Jormag, every time they have met with some kind of defeat.
    Even the belief around Jormags Tooth was ultimately a letdown for them as the Tooth was cracked, and the Norn followed Braham north to face Jormag believing that he would be the one finally end the beast and he failed to do so, not that it was his fault.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I feel like this episode showed even more disregard for Norn than previous ones.
    The Great Spirits have been done dirty.

    What? Like half the episode was Norn stuff, and how were the spitis done dirty? Do people even know what the phrase means?

    I mean they kind of were, they were all being drained and corrupted by hello-kitty and friends. But these primordial forces held their own against a full power jormag... A weakened one would of been an easier fight and Id of liked to see the spirits actually pushing back.

    Also the norn stuff is more like ambience, and braham spcifically. But like we aren't getting a lot of cultural stuff outside of lore books for them, but honestly maybe thats for the best. I dont trust a-net to write a dark, and hardcore story with beings who are a tri-bred of native american, norse and celtic nature mashed together with lycanthropy and do it justice. Might be better to let the charr destroy themselves and all that to spare the norn from getting the shaft, I notice often times that A-net's best writing comes from area's outside the main cast and center plot. (Such as asgeir's book and the more recent stuff about Olaf)

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Shouldn't the Jormag arc focused on Norn, Kodan and Jotun? What the heck is with all the Charr stuff.

    We got a lot to see about Son of Svanir and the Lost Spirits. Jotun/Kodan lore could also be explored. There are so many rich plot setup in the personal story for Jormag and most of them are simply discarded in Icebrood Saga.

    That ship has sailed, jormag is now a charr thing. We norn are ambiance and tone, and lore snipits to discover in the world as it is. The only thing we have for norn is braham being the chosen one which is stupid as heck. Could be worse.... they could of turned Knut into a nurse maid with anxiety like they have rytlock....

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean they kind of were, they were all being drained and corrupted by hello-kitty and friends. But these primordial forces held their own against a full power jormag... A weakened one would of been an easier fight and Id of liked to see the spirits actually pushing back.

    The Spirits of the wild never held their own against a full power Jormag. All they ever did was guide the Norn south while Eagle, Ox, Owl, and Wolverine, stayed behind to hold it off, and they failed, miserably, to even dent Jormag. If they could hold their own against Jormag they wouldn't have needed to empower Asgeir and his Jotun magic enhanced weapon in the first place.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Also the norn stuff is more like ambience, and braham spcifically. But like we aren't getting a lot of cultural stuff outside of lore books for them, but honestly maybe thats for the best. I dont trust a-net to write a dark, and hardcore story with beings who are a tri-bred of native american, norse and celtic nature mashed together with lycanthropy and do it justice. Might be better to let the charr destroy themselves and all that to spare the norn from getting the shaft, I notice often times that A-net's best writing comes from area's outside the main cast and center plot. (Such as asgeir's book and the more recent stuff about Olaf)

    1. None of it is ambience, ambience implies background stuff with no real impact on the plot.... which is the exact opposite of what happened this release, or in Bjora Marches which was even more heavily focused on them.
    2. Norn culture is an individualistic, every man/woman/child for themselves, personal glory thing... which is exactly what Braham is doing right now with trying to beat Jormag. That and Spirit of the Wild worship, and we have gotten a lot of that in Bjora and in this episode.
    3. Why would a Norn story need to be either "dark" or "hardcore", that sound edgy more then it does Norn. The Norn were never depicted like that in GW1 or 2. In fact, they were generally portrayed as being more lighthearted, with lots of ale and parties, not some serious, dark, brooding, people. And Norn only ever borrowed from those cultures on a superficial level.
  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    1. Why would a Norn story need to be either "dark" or "hardcore", that sound edgy more then it does Norn. The Norn were never depicted like that in GW1 or 2. In fact, they were generally portrayed as being more lighthearted, with lots of ale and parties, not some serious, dark, brooding, people. And Norn only ever borrowed from those cultures on a superficial level.

    I believe that "dark" and "hardcore" are general story course expectations (Anet said the story would get darker and all that), not a Norn related thing.

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  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean they kind of were, they were all being drained and corrupted by hello-kitty and friends. But these primordial forces held their own against a full power jormag... A weakened one would of been an easier fight and Id of liked to see the spirits actually pushing back.

    The Spirits of the wild never held their own against a full power Jormag. All they ever did was guide the Norn south while Eagle, Ox, Owl, and Wolverine, stayed behind to hold it off, and they failed, miserably, to even dent Jormag. If they could hold their own against Jormag they wouldn't have needed to empower Asgeir and his Jotun magic enhanced weapon in the first place.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Also the norn stuff is more like ambience, and braham spcifically. But like we aren't getting a lot of cultural stuff outside of lore books for them, but honestly maybe thats for the best. I dont trust a-net to write a dark, and hardcore story with beings who are a tri-bred of native american, norse and celtic nature mashed together with lycanthropy and do it justice. Might be better to let the charr destroy themselves and all that to spare the norn from getting the shaft, I notice often times that A-net's best writing comes from area's outside the main cast and center plot. (Such as asgeir's book and the more recent stuff about Olaf)

    1. None of it is ambience, ambience implies background stuff with no real impact on the plot.... which is the exact opposite of what happened this release, or in Bjora Marches which was even more heavily focused on them.
    2. Norn culture is an individualistic, every man/woman/child for themselves, personal glory thing... which is exactly what Braham is doing right now with trying to beat Jormag. That and Spirit of the Wild worship, and we have gotten a lot of that in Bjora and in this episode.
    3. Why would a Norn story need to be either "dark" or "hardcore", that sound edgy more then it does Norn. The Norn were never depicted like that in GW1 or 2. In fact, they were generally portrayed as being more lighthearted, with lots of ale and parties, not some serious, dark, brooding, people. And Norn only ever borrowed from those cultures on a superficial level.

    Listen, we know by this point that the person you're responding to plays the victim card incessantly when it comes to the Norn.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I mean they kind of were, they were all being drained and corrupted by hello-kitty and friends. But these primordial forces held their own against a full power jormag... A weakened one would of been an easier fight and Id of liked to see the spirits actually pushing back.

    The Spirits of the wild never held their own against a full power Jormag. All they ever did was guide the Norn south while Eagle, Ox, Owl, and Wolverine, stayed behind to hold it off, and they failed, miserably, to even dent Jormag. If they could hold their own against Jormag they wouldn't have needed to empower Asgeir and his Jotun magic enhanced weapon in the first place.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Also the norn stuff is more like ambience, and braham spcifically. But like we aren't getting a lot of cultural stuff outside of lore books for them, but honestly maybe thats for the best. I dont trust a-net to write a dark, and hardcore story with beings who are a tri-bred of native american, norse and celtic nature mashed together with lycanthropy and do it justice. Might be better to let the charr destroy themselves and all that to spare the norn from getting the shaft, I notice often times that A-net's best writing comes from area's outside the main cast and center plot. (Such as asgeir's book and the more recent stuff about Olaf)

    1. None of it is ambience, ambience implies background stuff with no real impact on the plot.... which is the exact opposite of what happened this release, or in Bjora Marches which was even more heavily focused on them.
    2. Norn culture is an individualistic, every man/woman/child for themselves, personal glory thing... which is exactly what Braham is doing right now with trying to beat Jormag. That and Spirit of the Wild worship, and we have gotten a lot of that in Bjora and in this episode.
    3. Why would a Norn story need to be either "dark" or "hardcore", that sound edgy more then it does Norn. The Norn were never depicted like that in GW1 or 2. In fact, they were generally portrayed as being more lighthearted, with lots of ale and parties, not some serious, dark, brooding, people. And Norn only ever borrowed from those cultures on a superficial level.

    Listen, we know by this point that the person you're responding to plays the victim card incessantly when it comes to the Norn.

    Im not, Im just telling them to get over it. I've accepted what it is, and honestly the ambiance to me is where the best bits of writing comes from. The focused plot is always the one in this game that suffers.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    I havent played the new episode jormag rising yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

    But to me the norn leave almost no impression in their supposed episodes.

    What did braham do so far? Get drunk and lose his bow lol

    How many norn can you name that have been involved in this living story so far? That shaman guy in bjora marches at the meta event shouting shallow phrases? Where's knut whitebear or for that reason any other norn who could be sort of a leading figure in this season? Seriously i recall that kodan dressed like a roman soldier better than any norn that had an appearance in this story.

    Yes we saw a spirit of the wild fly over the map. Wow. Big lore i guess.

    Let's be honest here, the norn have almost no screentime compared to the charr in this season. They basically do nothing and are a total joke when it comes to be active in any sort or way.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    I havent played the new episode jormag rising yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

    But to me the norn leave almost no impression in their supposed episodes.

    What did braham do so far? Get drunk and lose his bow lol

    How many norn can you name that have been involved in this living story so far? That shaman guy in bjora marches at the meta event shouting shallow phrases? Where's knut whitebear or for that reason any other norn who could be sort of a leading figure in this season? Seriously i recall that kodan dressed like a roman soldier better than any norn that had an appearance in this story.

    Yes we saw a spirit of the wild fly over the map. Wow. Big lore i guess.

    Let's be honest here, the norn have almost no screentime compared to the charr in this season. They basically do nothing and are a total joke when it comes to be active in any sort or way.

    The thing is, the Norn have already had more total screentime than the Charr in the whole game. There hasn't been a single, dedicated story arc for the Charr since the game's release, despite providing a majority of the military technology that the Pact uses. Even the bits and pieces we got in LS1 wee more focused on the Norn than the Charr, unless you count Flame Legion involvement.

    We even got two Shiverpeaks-focused maps long before we got our first Ascalon map.

    And to me, the Eagle Spirit adventure is probably one of the most iconic moments in the game. We've had more interaction with the Spirits of the Wild than we ever had with the Human Gods, despite the story being Human-centric until now.

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  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Yes we saw a spirit of the wild fly over the map. Wow. Big lore i guess.

    I'm sorry, but we had some VERY major lore revelations in this last episode alone, let alone having some in Episode 1 as we. Raven flying over Bjora Marches at the end of the meta? Not really a lore revelation. Owl being alive and corrupted? Finding the Lost Spirits and learning they were corrupted? Finding where the Spirits of the Wild first contacted norn? Meeting Wolf in person? Being tested by Raven? Seeing where Raven Havrouns go through trials to become a Havroun?

    Those are all very major lore revelations.

    What lore revelations about charr have there been? Bangar was behind the Renegades' finances, and father to Ajax. Expansion on the Flame Legion in-fighting post-Gaheron, leading to Efram's promotions. Getting to meet Malice at long last. And... That's rather kinda it. Only the first one's a major lore revelation.

    Not only that, while we're beginning to get plenty of norn history now - particularly surrounding Aesgir, Jormag, and the Spirits - there is pretty much no charr history being developed. And norn history has been lacking for a long time (asuran history too), so it's also a much needed development.

    As for screentime - Norn have now gotten two and a half episodes dedicated to them and their lore. Charr might have cameos in Episode 2, but otherwise have the same two and a half episodes dedicated to them, plus an intermission. The next intermission, the "mountain fractal" is probably going to be very norn-centric, evening it all out again.

    Screentime-wise, while there are fewer norn actors, the norn have gotten as much screentime as the charr.

    Thats all granted but the norn REALLY didn't have much of a stake, or really anything to do with any plot up until now. The charr have and likely will continue to be a striving pillar of the games story, I doubt they wont play any role once so ever even if its just in passing. We've had notable charr heroes (Almora, rytlock, crecia, smodur) and many more while the most notable norn characters are (Eir, Braham and Jhavi) you can also place your mentor here as well. But we all know no one seems to remember forgal when compared with tybalt, as well the Khan-ur has been brought up numerous times. The charr also helped in S3 with the whole white mantle thing, as well black citadel forces even moved down to elona (The renegades and the forces with them) into elona (the class lore guy talks about it, if you asked about what a renegade is..)

    Im also sure that the charr will have something to do with the cantha expansion, or at the very least be present outside of the pact. The ash legion im sure will actually likely be a player in that game since the order of whispers, seems to me to be comprised of nothing but wastes of time. The norn likely once this season is done, will be done. I doubt we will see anything more for them, of them or about them going forward so this saga HAS to give them attention in spades. This is so that it can all be done, and over with and that theme can be put to bed which means after cantha we just have a Asuran focused something (Likely with primo) to be done with the playable races all getting their just deserved spot in the lime light. I feel the charr work as a driving force for the plot, they can't let a norn be the champion because Svanir WAS the last champion of note that Im aware of (Outside of frostfang).

    Just a shame we can't have a batch of norn/charr themed E-specs.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are some Charr themed elite specs, renegade and scrapper. Holosmith is pretty Asura themed. Firebrand has human themes, as does spellbreaker with it being based of sunspears. I'm not sure how you'd do a Norn one, I guess soulbeast a little bit and maybe berserker?

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Yes we saw a spirit of the wild fly over the map. Wow. Big lore i guess.

    I'm sorry, but we had some VERY major lore revelations in this last episode alone, let alone having some in Episode 1 as we. Raven flying over Bjora Marches at the end of the meta? Not really a lore revelation. Owl being alive and corrupted? Finding the Lost Spirits and learning they were corrupted? Finding where the Spirits of the Wild first contacted norn? Meeting Wolf in person? Being tested by Raven? Seeing where Raven Havrouns go through trials to become a Havroun?

    Those are all very major lore revelations.

    What lore revelations about charr have there been? Bangar was behind the Renegades' finances, and father to Ajax. Expansion on the Flame Legion in-fighting post-Gaheron, leading to Efram's promotions. Getting to meet Malice at long last. And... That's rather kinda it. Only the first one's a major lore revelation.

    Not only that, while we're beginning to get plenty of norn history now - particularly surrounding Aesgir, Jormag, and the Spirits - there is pretty much no charr history being developed. And norn history has been lacking for a long time (asuran history too), so it's also a much needed development.

    As for screentime - Norn have now gotten two and a half episodes dedicated to them and their lore. Charr might have cameos in Episode 2, but otherwise have the same two and a half episodes dedicated to them, plus an intermission. The next intermission, the "mountain fractal" is probably going to be very norn-centric, evening it all out again.

    Screentime-wise, while there are fewer norn actors, the norn have gotten as much screentime as the charr.

    Lore is not screentime, neither is it story progression. The Norn in this season have nothing interesting going on for them. Don't be silly, this is clear as day. The major story nodes are clearly bangar, the relation triangle with bangar, rytlock and his son - and Jormag itself of course. Now tell me what the norn have to equal this? Braham trying to get his bow back?
    Again, I ask anyone to mention a single norn name beside Braham that had any significant screentime, story involvement or relevance to the story of Icrebrood Saga.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Thats all granted but the norn REALLY didn't have much of a stake, or really anything to do with any plot up until now.

    I kinda feel like the very presence and conflict with Jormag, and the constant mention of the prophecy to fall to or kill Jormag, is a very big stake for the norn.

    Sure, there's no norn army but why would there be?

    But we all know no one seems to remember forgal when compared with tybalt, as well the Khan-ur has been brought up numerous times.

    While Sieran and Forgal gets less vocal attention than Tybalt, they're definitely remembered and beloved by the community. As for Khan-Ur, the best equivalent (Asgeir) is mentioned quite a lot.

    The charr also helped in S3 with the whole white mantle thing, as well black citadel forces even moved down to elona (The renegades and the forces with them) into elona (the class lore guy talks about it, if you asked about what a renegade is..)

    And we had Bitterfrost Frontier that was solely norn-centric, while charr just piggybacked on the human's plot. And I wouldn't relate literally one NPC to anything important. I mean, we have norn NPCs in Elona too - such as this bounty. There were no "Black Citadel forces" moving down to Elona, it was just one NPC doing their own thing.

    Im also sure that the charr will have something to do with the cantha expansion,

    At this point, you're kinda just sounding mopey by whining about the unknown future.

    Just a shame we can't have a batch of norn/charr themed E-specs.

    Berserker is fairly norn themed., what with the Spirits of the Wild being part of some skill animations and the weapon.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Lore is not screentime, neither is it story progression.

    Screentime is not everything, and Braham and Jhavi got plenty of that anyways in both Episodes 1 and 2. Hell the entirety of both episodes are about Braham and Jhavi, with all charr taking a backseat. While Braham gets more than half of the screentime in Episodes 0 and 4.

    If we're talking about screentime of individuals, Braham has the most by far, only followed closely with Rytlock. Which is to be expected since they're members of Dragon's Watch.

    The major story nodes are clearly bangar, the relation triangle with bangar, rytlock and his son

    And Braham as the norn of prophecy, the corruption of the Spirits of the Wild, and the history of Jormag with.

    Again, I ask anyone to mention a single norn name beside Braham that had any significant screentime, story involvement or relevance to the story of Icrebrood Saga.

    Jhavi Jorasdottir. Literally present throughout the entirety of two out of five episodes.

    Done.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want more charr lore. MORE. All the charr lore.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Thats all granted but the norn REALLY didn't have much of a stake, or really anything to do with any plot up until now.

    I kinda feel like the very presence and conflict with Jormag, and the constant mention of the prophecy to fall to or kill Jormag, is a very big stake for the norn.

    Sure, there's no norn army but why would there be?

    But we all know no one seems to remember forgal when compared with tybalt, as well the Khan-ur has been brought up numerous times.

    While Sieran and Forgal gets less vocal attention than Tybalt, they're definitely remembered and beloved by the community. As for Khan-Ur, the best equivalent (Asgeir) is mentioned quite a lot.

    The charr also helped in S3 with the whole white mantle thing, as well black citadel forces even moved down to elona (The renegades and the forces with them) into elona (the class lore guy talks about it, if you asked about what a renegade is..)

    And we had Bitterfrost Frontier that was solely norn-centric, while charr just piggybacked on the human's plot. And I wouldn't relate literally one NPC to anything important. I mean, we have norn NPCs in Elona too - such as this bounty. There were no "Black Citadel forces" moving down to Elona, it was just one NPC doing their own thing.

    Im also sure that the charr will have something to do with the cantha expansion,

    At this point, you're kinda just sounding mopey by whining about the unknown future.

    Just a shame we can't have a batch of norn/charr themed E-specs.

    Berserker is fairly norn themed., what with the Spirits of the Wild being part of some skill animations and the weapon.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Lore is not screentime, neither is it story progression.

    Screentime is not everything, and Braham and Jhavi got plenty of that anyways in both Episodes 1 and 2. Hell the entirety of both episodes are about Braham and Jhavi, with all charr taking a backseat. While Braham gets more than half of the screentime in Episodes 0 and 4.

    If we're talking about screentime of individuals, Braham has the most by far, only followed closely with Rytlock. Which is to be expected since they're members of Dragon's Watch.

    The major story nodes are clearly bangar, the relation triangle with bangar, rytlock and his son

    And Braham as the norn of prophecy, the corruption of the Spirits of the Wild, and the history of Jormag with.

    Again, I ask anyone to mention a single norn name beside Braham that had any significant screentime, story involvement or relevance to the story of Icrebrood Saga.

    Jhavi Jorasdottir. Literally present throughout the entirety of two out of five episodes.

    Done.

    To be fair, I haven't had enthusiasm since HoT. My mopey-ness is due to constant disappointments, Take that as you will but still this saga isn't providing what I had hoped for thus far. To each their own.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Thats all granted but the norn REALLY didn't have much of a stake, or really anything to do with any plot up until now.

    I kinda feel like the very presence and conflict with Jormag, and the constant mention of the prophecy to fall to or kill Jormag, is a very big stake for the norn.

    Sure, there's no norn army but why would there be?

    But we all know no one seems to remember forgal when compared with tybalt, as well the Khan-ur has been brought up numerous times.

    While Sieran and Forgal gets less vocal attention than Tybalt, they're definitely remembered and beloved by the community. As for Khan-Ur, the best equivalent (Asgeir) is mentioned quite a lot.

    The charr also helped in S3 with the whole white mantle thing, as well black citadel forces even moved down to elona (The renegades and the forces with them) into elona (the class lore guy talks about it, if you asked about what a renegade is..)

    And we had Bitterfrost Frontier that was solely norn-centric, while charr just piggybacked on the human's plot. And I wouldn't relate literally one NPC to anything important. I mean, we have norn NPCs in Elona too - such as this bounty. There were no "Black Citadel forces" moving down to Elona, it was just one NPC doing their own thing.

    Im also sure that the charr will have something to do with the cantha expansion,

    At this point, you're kinda just sounding mopey by whining about the unknown future.

    Just a shame we can't have a batch of norn/charr themed E-specs.

    Berserker is fairly norn themed., what with the Spirits of the Wild being part of some skill animations and the weapon.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Lore is not screentime, neither is it story progression.

    Screentime is not everything, and Braham and Jhavi got plenty of that anyways in both Episodes 1 and 2. Hell the entirety of both episodes are about Braham and Jhavi, with all charr taking a backseat. While Braham gets more than half of the screentime in Episodes 0 and 4.

    If we're talking about screentime of individuals, Braham has the most by far, only followed closely with Rytlock. Which is to be expected since they're members of Dragon's Watch.

    The major story nodes are clearly bangar, the relation triangle with bangar, rytlock and his son

    And Braham as the norn of prophecy, the corruption of the Spirits of the Wild, and the history of Jormag with.

    Again, I ask anyone to mention a single norn name beside Braham that had any significant screentime, story involvement or relevance to the story of Icrebrood Saga.

    Jhavi Jorasdottir. Literally present throughout the entirety of two out of five episodes.

    Done.

    To be fair, I haven't had enthusiasm since HoT. My mopey-ness is due to constant disappointments, Take that as you will but still this saga isn't providing what I had hoped for thus far. To each their own.

    5 years of dissatisfaction is a long time.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest with there are alot of charr fans who felt the same way for episodes 1,2 because those were actually heavily norn and kodan focused while charr got pushed aside. Now with episode 3 and 4 they went back to focusing on charr for a bit (not in the way that everyone is happy with) but its a thing.

    Both races are honestly not focused on very well and some characters just pop in way too fast without proper introduction or background as to who they actually are (even if they have technically existed in lore for some time now).

    My guess is that the next patch likely will look at all three in some way or might be heavily norn/kodan focused seeing as of how the way episode 4 ends (no spoilers here though)

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Thats all granted but the norn REALLY didn't have much of a stake, or really anything to do with any plot up until now.

    I kinda feel like the very presence and conflict with Jormag, and the constant mention of the prophecy to fall to or kill Jormag, is a very big stake for the norn.

    Sure, there's no norn army but why would there be?

    But we all know no one seems to remember forgal when compared with tybalt, as well the Khan-ur has been brought up numerous times.

    While Sieran and Forgal gets less vocal attention than Tybalt, they're definitely remembered and beloved by the community. As for Khan-Ur, the best equivalent (Asgeir) is mentioned quite a lot.

    The charr also helped in S3 with the whole white mantle thing, as well black citadel forces even moved down to elona (The renegades and the forces with them) into elona (the class lore guy talks about it, if you asked about what a renegade is..)

    And we had Bitterfrost Frontier that was solely norn-centric, while charr just piggybacked on the human's plot. And I wouldn't relate literally one NPC to anything important. I mean, we have norn NPCs in Elona too - such as this bounty. There were no "Black Citadel forces" moving down to Elona, it was just one NPC doing their own thing.

    Im also sure that the charr will have something to do with the cantha expansion,

    At this point, you're kinda just sounding mopey by whining about the unknown future.

    Just a shame we can't have a batch of norn/charr themed E-specs.

    Berserker is fairly norn themed., what with the Spirits of the Wild being part of some skill animations and the weapon.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Lore is not screentime, neither is it story progression.

    Screentime is not everything, and Braham and Jhavi got plenty of that anyways in both Episodes 1 and 2. Hell the entirety of both episodes are about Braham and Jhavi, with all charr taking a backseat. While Braham gets more than half of the screentime in Episodes 0 and 4.

    If we're talking about screentime of individuals, Braham has the most by far, only followed closely with Rytlock. Which is to be expected since they're members of Dragon's Watch.

    The major story nodes are clearly bangar, the relation triangle with bangar, rytlock and his son

    And Braham as the norn of prophecy, the corruption of the Spirits of the Wild, and the history of Jormag with.

    Again, I ask anyone to mention a single norn name beside Braham that had any significant screentime, story involvement or relevance to the story of Icrebrood Saga.

    Jhavi Jorasdottir. Literally present throughout the entirety of two out of five episodes.

    Done.

    To be fair, I haven't had enthusiasm since HoT. My mopey-ness is due to constant disappointments, Take that as you will but still this saga isn't providing what I had hoped for thus far. To each their own.

    5 years of dissatisfaction is a long time.

    Yes it is, but as far as MMO's go where is a solid alternative? Not many exist.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Charrbrood Saga, thats all...I really wanted to get in this season LW, saga or whatever you wanna call it, but this is just extremelly bad to the point it hurts...its less about Jormag and the prophecy(its funny they keep contradicting their own lore over and over again) and more really about Bangar, Ryland and his parents and the Charr Imperators...the spirits of the wild just got reduced to a bunch of stupid mini games without any actual purpose...since I started playing this game years ago I was really excited to get the fight to Jormag and see how Anet would explore the Norn lore, the prophecy and the Spirits of the Wild...but now I just want it to end it to be honest.
    The moment I read that book, The Burden I just lost all interest in the story.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    the spirits of the wild just got reduced to a bunch of stupid mini games without any actual purpose...

    Yeah man, they only empowered Braham so he could kill Drakkar, and likewise opened up a passage that allowed us to get to Bangar before he could go even further. Braham causing Owl's return also gave Jormag a big power boost, which will have consequences later. Not to mention Raven's magic being not only being used by the Fraenir to attack us, but also to find and stop him in episode 1. And Wolf being in episode 2 to help Braham learn what he needed to unlock his spirit totem transformation, as well putting him on the path to get the lesser Spirits help so he could defeat Drakkar in the first place.

    But no, there is no purpose besides mini-games. Nope. All that Spirits of the Wild plot critical stuff in episode 1, 2, and 4, never happened.

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    The moment I read that book, The Burden I just lost all interest in the story.

    Funny, this made me like the story a lot more. It turned Asgeir from a boring, one dimensional, messiah figure into an actual character with conflict and depth.

  • Contrast the Norn spirits with the belief systems of other races. The Eternal Alchemy beat two dragons. A single de-powered human deity was a campaign. I'm fairly certain there's also an argument to be made that he was winning against Kralk. The Norn spirits aren't on the tier of other races. This of course works because the Norn are not on the tier of the other races. They're incompetent, overly hasty, and Braham. Ogres have a more developed society than Norn! Whatever they were supposed to be at the start, they've been undeveloped to the status of what GW2 refers to as a "minor" race".

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    A single de-powered human deity was a campaign.

    I mean, Balthazar had absorbed the power of an entire Bloodstone, as well as zapping a ton of power from both Primordus and Jormag. He was only "de-powered" from his god magic, he still had more power then pretty much any living entity besides the Elder Dragons when we fought him.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    There is a distinct difference between the Norn and Charr story. The Charr story bravely deconstructs Charr culture, explores their culture realistically. The Norn story is driven by fantasy cliches. Hopefully, at least from my perspective, Norn culture gets deconstructed. Judging from the response of many Charr fans, Norn fans would likely go from asking for more representation to resenting the studio deconstructing Norn culture.

    The Burden is hopefully a sign that the studio is willing to deconstruct Norn culture. I hope the reaction from Charr fans hasn't changed their minds.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Given the 5 episodes and 1 vision. I found that both races had a good deal of representation so far in the saga, with most likely 4 more episodes and at the very least 2 more visions. Even GW1 didn’t have a crazy amount of time dealing with the Norn, so the pool of information isn’t exactly huge.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    There is a distinct difference between the Norn and Charr story. The Charr story bravely deconstructs Charr culture, explores their culture realistically. The Norn story is driven by fantasy cliches. Hopefully, at least from my perspective, Norn culture gets deconstructed.

    I can certainly see the fantasy cliches (particularly in Episode 2), but I see it more as the norn having their lore explored. Charr, unlike norn, have had detailed lore for years, since 2007 at the very least with The Ecology of the Charr doc. Norn, however, only have highlights of post-GW1 lore, and have been severely lacking any and all pre-GW1 lore. The Icebrood Saga, piece by piece, is adding to that pre-GW1 lore.

    Before you can deconstruct lore, you need to construct it, and that's what Icebrood Saga is doing for norn in the background with the Raven Sanctum, Sanctum of the Wild, etc.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    There is a distinct difference between the Norn and Charr story. The Charr story bravely deconstructs Charr culture, explores their culture realistically. The Norn story is driven by fantasy cliches. Hopefully, at least from my perspective, Norn culture gets deconstructed.

    I can certainly see the fantasy cliches (particularly in Episode 2), but I see it more as the norn having their lore explored. Charr, unlike norn, have had detailed lore for years, since 2007 at the very least with The Ecology of the Charr doc. Norn, however, only have highlights of post-GW1 lore, and have been severely lacking any and all pre-GW1 lore. The Icebrood Saga, piece by piece, is adding to that pre-GW1 lore.

    Before you can deconstruct lore, you need to construct it, and that's what Icebrood Saga is doing for norn in the background with the Raven Sanctum, Sanctum of the Wild, etc.

    The most obvious fantasy cliche is Braham becoming the Norn of destiny. The Nature Spirits are a little cliche but become less cliche and just tropes as they get fleshed out and made unique. If the studio does decide to deconstruct Norn culture I hope they deal with the codependency between a culture that 'worships' heroes and magical spirits that feed the culture talk of destiny. In many ways, deconstructing Charr culture is easy compared to Norn culture. After the civil war, Charr will have more agency. If the studio focuses on Nature spirits and increases the validity of their voice, Norn risk losing agency and becoming more of a stereotype.

    Is the premise of the 'Norn of destiny' based on the nature spirits ability to see the future?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks