Buying gems in bulk. (and an unrelated quality of life change)

Should Anet provide incentives for people to buy in bulk?

On a totally unrelated note, they should provide you the opportunity to buy gems outside the gem store, such as when you go for a world transfer, add a button to buy gems.

I like the current system because it makes it simple to work out how much real money gem store items cost, and because it means I'm never tempted to buy more gems than I currently need for the discount.

Elder Scrolls Online does offer a discount for buying more crowns (aka gems) together and it means I always feel like I'm getting a bad deal if I buy one of the smaller packages, but the bigger ones are quite expensive (going up to £109.99 for the biggest pack) and it would take me a very long time to use up, so it seems pointless to buy it. I usually compromise and buy the 5,500 crown pack for £29.99 (and wait for a sale to get them slightly cheaper), but I prefer GW2's system where I never have to worry about it and just buy what I need for whichever items I want to get.

No, because just as the poster above me said, I feel like I am getting a bad deal if I do not buy the nomination with the highest bonus, even though I only need a few gems. This would lead me to not buy those gems I need at all, which is not what Anet wants.

If ANet made such a change I would buy more gems with gold since I wouldn't want to waste money on the lower gem packages.

I'd buy gems if theya) did a bulk discount on them, because to me the current rate isn't good, so I'd be willing to pay more, to get more gems. Alternatively, they could make their rate better, but I don't hold my breath on that one. I find the gem store to be too expensive.b) did a discount on gem purchases (cash only) instead of discounts on specific items. I get why they do discounts on items, so you check the gem store all the time, but discounting gems themselves would make me consider buying gems, even to hoard them for later use

My two cents, unless they do they above they won't see me buying any gems, only expansions.

Interesting items are incentive enough for me to buy gems. I rarely stock up on gems, only when I'm 100% sure a certain item will appear at a discount.

The current system is fine for me, I also share the opinions of @Tyncale.1629 and @Danikat.8537 .

As a consumer, yes it would encourage me if I was buying some to buy more if it meant a better discount in bulk. Consider it, that's why there are mega businesses like Costco, Sam's Club and BJs that runs off this type of business model and receive high levels of customers. It would work to increase sales here as well, IMO.

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:As a consumer, yes it would encourage me if I was buying some to buy more if it meant a better discount in bulk. Consider it, that's why there are mega businesses like Costco, Sam's Club and BJs that runs off this type of business model and receive high levels of customers. It would work to increase sales here as well, IMO.

Also, as a consumer, one has to be wary of those "discounted" prices. Buying in bulk at these retailers isn't always the best or lowest price per unit. There is some perception on the part of the consumer that items in these stores must be lower in price, but that is not always the case.

If they offered bonuses, I might consider more often buying directly from Anet~.

Maybe they could run a "happy hours," period (say, over a weekend) where higher purchase packages offered more gems. Cash only, of course.

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:As a consumer, yes it would encourage me if I was buying some to buy more if it meant a better discount in bulk. Consider it, that's why there are mega businesses like Costco, Sam's Club and BJs that runs off this type of business model and receive high levels of customers. It would work to increase sales here as well, IMO.

Your region and markets will vary, agree.

IMO actual paying customers should get more for little, gold exchange should always be higher in price.you spend money, you get actual gems worth the money, you spend gold, you better farm for it.

Zenimax gives you more crowns for your buck if you buy the bigger packages and they also do crown discounts once or twice a year but both of those things have led to their store becoming overpriced and oversaturated. They know most people save up money and only buy crowns in bulk or during sales so to counter it they have steadily increased prices across the boards and flooded the shop with variations of the same items with most of the truly unique options locked away in gamble boxes.

What you might think is a good deal was still carefully calculated to pull as much money out of you as possible. Remember, the house always wins.

@sorudo.9054 said:IMO actual paying customers should get more for little, gold exchange should always be higher in price.you spend money, you get actual gems worth the money, you spend gold, you better farm for it.

tl;dr this might already be the case; there's no way for us to know

Currently, the way the exchange works is that if you convert 1000 Gems to Gold, and convert that gold back instantly to gems, you'll end up with 670-725 gems. Gnashblade takes his cut here, as well as in the TP.

There's no way to measure what the fees are, because the game (and the API) only tell us the net amounts, not the gross. So it's entirely possible that the fees are less for converting gems→gold, and worse for converting gold→gems; we just won't ever know. And ANet has never been willing to discuss it.

Some trivia:

• At the game's launch, the fees for the exchange were identical to the TP's: 37.75% gold→gems→gold and vice-versa, which is equivalent to 15% in both directions.
• This changed in 2015, and the rate became variable. I've measured it to be as high as 18.3% implied, and as low as 14.9% (mostly higher than 15%).
• I had a brief exchange with ANet's former economist, John Smith. He was surprised that it was no longer an implied 15%. Although he said he would get back to me, he left the company not long after.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:IMO actual paying customers should get more for little, gold exchange should always be higher in price.you spend money, you get actual gems worth the money, you spend gold, you better farm for it.

it takes 5 gems for 1 gold, even with the cut this means that gems are worth less than gold.IMO there should be two gem types, silver and gold.gold gems can only be bought with money and have a low gemstore price, the exchange is still the same.silver gems can be bought with gold but you need to pay a higher price in the gemstore, with this real paying customers actually get rewarded for buying gems while exchange gems are worth less so not paying customers have to farm to get what they want.

and yes, i know it makes the exchange less rewarding but see it this way, no matter the gem pool only real paying customers keep Anet alive, the exchange is just a service they gave so it's not a must.

Or, if you're worried about Anet not getting enough cash for gems, you could just buy gems yourself. I'm not sure that there is a problem here that is trying to be solved.

even with the cut this means that gems are worth less than gold.Yes, that's how the math works.There's no point in having two currencies if the exchange is always 1:1; one of the currencies will always trade for fewer units of the other.

gold sapphire gems can only be bought with money and have a low gemstore price, the exchange is still the same.silver ruby gems can be bought with gold but you need to pay a higher price in the gemstore, with this real paying customers(I changed the names so avoid confusing "gold gems" with "gold coin".)

Having two, non-tradeable currencies undermines the entire purpose of having an exchange: so that the value of gems is tied to the economy, thus removing the most powerful incentive for people to consider RMT.As the supply of gold in the game goes up, people are willing to sell more of it to buy gems, which allows those "real paying customers" a chance to get more in-game gold. The market is much more efficient at finding the happy medium of supply and demand than ANet ever would be able to do, micromanaging two types of gems.

the exchange is just a service they gave so it's not a must.on the contrary, it was designed as part of the game's economic machinery; it's fundamental, not an extra

Regardless, the point I was making was that it's possible that ANet already does what you first requested above,

i.e. charges higher fees to people trading gold to gems already, compared to those exchanging gems for gold. We will never know, because there's no way to independently determine the fees in each direction, only the cumulative amount.

As noted above, if the fees are the same in both directions, they would run from 15% (same as for the TP generally) up to 18.5% (and ANet's never explained why it's been a variable rate).

Why would they add a prompt during world transfer to get people to buy gems? Unless you're transferring to a free world, you'd have had to buy gems for the transfer thus already aware of the ability to buy gems. The notification when there's a new store item also serves as a reminder to buy gems. The news website posts are reminders to buy gems. The occasional free item is a reminder to buy gems. The sales throughout the year are reminders to buy gems. There is zero need to add new pop-ups/notifications to buy gems because there's already various was to remind/encourage people to buy gems that at least makes some degree of sense and I have outright quit games that add "Hey, buy our premium currency!" notifications anywhere and everywhere they think they can get away with it.

You also don't need to buy gems during world transfer. You do that before or after, not during, especially as there's nothing time-sensitive that can't wait a few minutes unless you're trying to nab a sale item seconds before the sale ends and instead of taking care of that before transferring worlds, you decided to transfer first. Even if that's just an example you threw out there, there is no time in GW2 I can think of where you would need to buy gems right that moment instead of waiting a few minutes.

Also a flat rate is infinitely more fair to people who cannot afford to buy large sums of gems. Just because someone can drop $50 a month on virtual items doesn't mean that they should get even more than someone who can only afford/justify $10 every few months. It's just another case where those with excess means get bonuses just for having money while those with a tight budget are punished for it. A flat rate also makes it easier for people to say no and control their spending since they aren't being pressured to "just spend a little more" to get "bonus" gems, which is exactly why so many developers don't do flat rates, since it's easier to draw in whales and prey on people with poor impulse control or addictions and upsell them on something it costs you literally nothing to make or store.

It may feel good to get a perceived bonus, but you have to look into the implications and reasons behind it. One real world example is if you buy an item that says "Now X% more!" there's no small chance that the product's size was recently changed so the "bigger" one is still the same size as the old size as they work through the old packaging and prime buyers into accepting the smaller size, or as a way to trick people into buying their product instead of a competitor's, or both.

Gems have no storage or production costs thus should have a flat rate across the board because to do otherwise is to put money ahead of people and put well-off people ahead of poorer people. The gem store was always designed to be (roughly) equal footing for all players so it makes zero sense to change it to be unfair, especially 8 years in.

@sorudo.9054 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:IMO actual paying customers should get more for little, gold exchange should always be higher in price.you spend money, you get actual gems worth the money, you spend gold, you better farm for it.

I think its fine since we would get more gems for exchanging gold if people bought more with cash.So then the tricky question is how much less to combat the gold gems turning into silver gems?

@"Zephire.8049" said:Why would they add a prompt during world transfer to get people to buy gems? Unless you're transferring to a free world, you'd have had to buy gems for the transfer thus already aware of the ability to buy gems. The notification when there's a new store item also serves as a reminder to buy gems. The news website posts are reminders to buy gems. The occasional free item is a reminder to buy gems. The sales throughout the year are reminders to buy gems. There is zero need to add new pop-ups/notifications to buy gems because there's already various was to remind/encourage people to buy gems that at least makes some degree of sense and I have outright quit games that add "Hey, buy our premium currency!" notifications anywhere and everywhere they think they can get away with it.

You also don't need to buy gems during world transfer. You do that before or after, not during, especially as there's nothing time-sensitive that can't wait a few minutes unless you're trying to nab a sale item seconds before the sale ends and instead of taking care of that before transferring worlds, you decided to transfer first. Even if that's just an example you threw out there, there is no time in GW2 I can think of where you would need to buy gems right that moment instead of waiting a few minutes.

I think they meant add a button to buy gems to the transfer window. At the moment if you're on the character select screen with the transfer window open, choose a world to go to and realise you don't have enough gems you have to close the window, log into a character (and wait for it to load), open the gem store and buy gems, log out again and re-find the world you wanted to transfer to in the menu. Adding a button to buy gems without logging into a character would make it a much quicker process.

It's a pretty minor time-saver, but I can see how it would be annoying to have to go through that when you were ready to go ahead with the transfer.

@kharmin.7683 said:Or, if you're worried about Anet not getting enough cash for gems, you could just buy gems yourself. I'm not sure that there is a problem here that is trying to be solved.

As a counter point, beside using the whataboutism argument, you haven't stated how having a discount for a larger purchase impacts people not purchasing more, so how does it impact your gameplay if people would buy more when they could? Saying no for the sake of no is not a valid point.

Why I think it and an optional sub is a good idea? I have the optional one in ESO and even though I haven't visited there in 2 months I leave it on since I know its earning my account value and I feel its a reasonable spend since it has return for when I do. Now people can call that predatory but I see it as a value add. When I choose to spend money here it feels less and less of the value spent. I buy when I feel they are moving in the right direction and have done as you said, when I like what they are doing I buy more gems to support development. The optional sub would also give ANet a better feel of direction since they could judge how they are they doing by these optional subs versus was the thing on the store just over-shiny. Optional subs and this concept are just that, optional. I have yet to see a statement how it would negatively impact players who choose not to opt in. Any arguments against should be arguments to just remove the gem store since they already apply to the environment we have now.

Ok, so what benefit(s) would an "optional" sub fee grant? What would one get for opting in that others would not?

@"kharmin.7683" said:Ok, so what benefit(s) would an "optional" sub fee grant? What would one get for opting in that others would not?

That would be for ANet to decide what value would those metrics grant them. How would it harm players that choose not to opt in? I will give you an example of a benefit to a player, with an optional opt in they could better budget their spend. I know that I will be spending 10 dollars a month on my gaming. Can they choose to go and do that by just buying each month, yes, but a lot of people auto-pay for things and see that as a convenience. Having that option doesn't impact others game play so why not. Not having the auto-pay does impact those that might use that feature. ANet is using the impulse buy method now which grants them more burst funding I would guess without seeing their books. The optional-sub method targets more consistent spend over time and is less burst purchases. The OPs idea would fit their model and increase the number of burst purchases.

Using this as just a simple example, I don't budget my gaming funds, but I do know others that do and have. Now that said, even just leaving the optional sub on ESO I know I have spent far more in GW2, but feel I have received less of a return so that taints future purchases. So that's ANet's question to answer, why is this seen as such. It's also theirs to answer what incentives would an opt in need to have people go that route so they could see what their player base looks like to better judge investments in development. Cash shops are simply a metamorphosis of sub fees, it was an answer to why do we have to pay monthly subs. But ANet knew the secret question answer, ask for nothing and gain much, ask for something and gain less. People that would spend on subs will spend more optionally. ESO saw this trend and found the middle ground, give them an optional opt in and they might still sub and buy more at times.

What is with this idea that everything should "reward" you as you pay for it? An item costs what it costs and your reward for paying for it is the item. Adding reward systems to anything adds a layer of complication that has to be maintained and ultimately the prices go up to compensate. I know this is an extreme oversimplification but entire generations of consumers have caused entire markets to inflate in price because we need to feel "rewarded" more than the initial exchange. I have stopped patronizing certain businesses because everything is always "for sale" instead of just posting the real price. I laugh when my reciepts say "you saved" on this purchase because it is a stupid gimmik. Why do so many buy into this! The gems do not need to be discounted the more you buy. That will not lead to good things ultimately.

@"Super Hayes.6890" said:What is with this idea that everything should "reward" you as you pay for it? An item costs what it costs and your reward for paying for it is the item. Adding reward systems to anything adds a layer of complication that has to be maintained and ultimately the prices go up to compensate. I know this is an extreme oversimplification but entire generations of consumers have caused entire markets to inflate in price because we need to feel "rewarded" more than the initial exchange. I have stopped patronizing certain businesses because everything is always "for sale" instead of just posting the real price. I laugh when my reciepts say "you saved" on this purchase because it is a stupid gimmik. Why do so many buy into this! The gems do not need to be discounted the more you buy. That will not lead to good things ultimately.

This isn't buying into anything, its a real world carryover to the virtual world. Buying in bulk costs you less because you have reduced the expense side of equation with less packaging and transportations fees to move the goods. Your per each is more than likely going to go down. It's more expensive to the consumer if what was bought was wasted and its more upfront but it is cheaper than if you bought the same amount separately. I agree about the sale's bit but again those you saved deals are companies collecting metrics on buy and patterns and pay the consumer for that information by applying discounts and collecting less profit from those goods. There are loss leaders out there but not as many that won't have mark ups to allow a business to grow. So again, how does it impact play? If anything an increase in gems from cash reduce the gold to gem transfer rate and allows more people to convert gold so it only helps those that would not buy the gems anyway.