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Ranged weapon buffs in PVE?

I know that weapons with range should do a bit less damage than melee because of the risk vs reward factor, but staying at range and kiting has its own issues like pulling extra mobs, and stuff with lots of gap closers. In fractals and raids you already want everyone stacked up in melee for buffs so the range doesn't really mean much there at all either. So can we bring the underperforming ranged weapons up to a point where they are considered in higher end pve or even open world in some cases? For example, can we make the big dragon slaying DH longbow good again? How about Warrior rifle, sc/f ele, or the many other ones that barely get touched.

I know for some of these buffs have been asked for forever, and Anet probably wont ever read this but I figured why not try and get some more build diversity out there without making new elite specs or an expansion.

Comments

  • I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

    Yeah I don't think anyone is asking for it to be the same, just comparable enough that it becomes an option and not a detriment.

  • Range weapons that need buffing irrespective of game mode:
    Warrior Longbow and Rifle
    Guardian Scepter AA
    Engi Pistol
    Necro Staff (Needs a better AA and for Marks to have a flip over to detonate them or have ammo charges)

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2020

    Rather than basing damage on weapon type, I'd like to see a gradually reduced damage based on distance.

    That way, Ranger's Longbow (as an example), if used within 150 units (melee range) could deal damage equal to regular melee weapons, while dealing next to no damage at 1500 range (as it ideally would be).

    However, with such a change, traits that become stronger at range, like Dragonhunter's Pure of Sight, ought to be reworked (or completely replaced).

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    a better imo option to fix the issue is introducing more content where range actually is an advantage. content where you can't just melee AoE everything or dash into melee in half a second
    Gorseval's orbs was a good example for a time

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

    Actually this is not ALWAYS true. Being in ranged most of the times is more dangerous than being melee. There are 3 disatvantages of being ranged:
    1) Low damage because ranged weapon's weakness
    2) No boons from support classes if they are melee.
    3) No heals either
    Which makes it even more difficult.
    Having a ranged weapon and being at ranged distance from your enemy are different things.
    Let's take the example of greatsword on power chrono. It is a ranged weapon that is very much viable, but we still use it in melee range. Actually even when training on golem you do more damage than being ranged because of the GS4 ability. So the weapon rewards you being melee even if you are ranged.
    Another viable choice for a ranged weapon is the longbow and shortbow on ranger. They work pretty well no matter you are ranged or melee.
    Meanwhile some other weapons that the author of this post highlated are garbage despite the range. So their point is very valid.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2020

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

    Actually this is not ALWAYS true. Being in ranged most of the times is more dangerous than being melee. There are 3 disatvantages of being ranged:
    1) Low damage because ranged weapon's weakness
    2) No boons from support classes if they are melee.
    3) No heals either

    You're trying to force something into being a "weakness", when in reality it's just an added option. You can be ranged if that's safer for you, but you can use ranged weapons to attack from the closer range in case you want to be in a group for boons/heals. So point 2 and 3 is mostly false.

    Which makes it even more difficult.

    No, having a choice of dealing damage from the middle of your group or just standing back (which isn't the choice for melee, whether you're solo or in a group) doesn't make anything "more difficult". You seem to be intentionally stretching facts for the sake of just counting more disadvantages when they're not exactly real ones.

    And sure, what he said is not always the case, but that's a pretty sensible justification.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Range weapons that need buffing irrespective of game mode:
    Warrior Longbow and Rifle
    Guardian Scepter AA
    Engi Pistol
    Necro Staff (Needs a better AA and for Marks to have a flip over to detonate them or have ammo charges)

    I respectfully disagree on the "irrespective of game mode" comment.

    Warrior longbow has issues only in competitive mode, it's used on condi Berserker in PVE to great extents. Sure the tracking has problems but so do most ranged weapons (a nonissue if you're staying in near melee range for boon uptime).

    Warrior rifle was buffed previously but similar to Engineer rifle the damage just isn't there (due to the skills other than burst + Volley) unless you swap weapons. Lots of Gunflame meme builds though.

    Guardian scepter AA damage was nerfed before in PVE , I don't foresee that changing unless you mean the projectile tracking which other ranged weapons also contend with. For both power and condi builds the high amount of hits on the Symbol of Punishment make the bulk of the damage.

    Engi pistol is a trainwreck in general but engineers have kits to offset that ; it has high splash damage cleave as it hits 5 targets. Ultimately the improvement would have to be on Static Shot probably along with a reduction in cooldown on Poison Dart Volley. The caveat here is the high damage benchmark of condi holo is predicated on grenades, bomb kit, and photon forge: pistol autoattacks basically don't factor in at all.

    Necro staff is meta in WVW but could use some bleeding on auto with traits or something. I guess it's because it's mostly a life force weapon that it hasn't been changed ; it has a mark on 4s cooldown so it isn't as bad as people make it out to be when the emphasis is obviously not DPS.

    Other ranged weapons

    Ranger shortbow is highlighted as a condi weapon that is used in lazy version condi soulbeast (single shortbow soulbeast) for the less tryhard people.

    Ranger longbow is almost exclusively used in PVE for Barrage and to a lesser extent Rapid Fire. Without the synergy of One wolf Pack and on-hit traits it is much weaker.

    Guardian staff is used almost exclusively for its support aspects unless it's a weapon swap to proc burning off symbols.

    Dragonhunter longbow is only usable in PVE where DPS is not the primary goal ; in competitive modes because Deflecting shot counts as CC it does no damage.

    Deadeye rifle is typically used on roaming deadeyes and for the power rifle deadeye PVE build when cleave isn't required.

    Before the shortbow nerf in PVP/WVW , thieves pretty much all carried shortbow for the mobility. With the nerf it still does okay cleave (although damage vs targets that aren't poisoned is poor) and area damage but the mobility aspect is largely gutted.

    It used to be that elementalist staff was meta in PVE , not just WVW. It's currently sometimes used as backline support weapon because of water attunement autos, but generally it isn't as potent as before due to Lava Font nerfs on top of Meteor Shower nerfs.

    Elementalist scepter is used on fresh air tempest for PVE purposes , but there is a delay on most of the skills which is why dagger is typical for competitive mode tempests that aren't running some sort of well timed scepter spike.

    Necromancer scepter doesn't need help I think , unless the Curses' Lingering Curse trait is going to be innate and split +25% traited / +25% added to the weapon itself instead of a flat +50% duration bonus. Axe has lower damage than Greatsword on Reaper but the boon rip on 12 cooldown is far more potent in that sense and there is vulnerability generation. Ghastly claws also happens to be part of the Reaper damage rotation.

    Mesmer greatsword was sort of a meme before but it hasn't suffered as large a damage nerf in competitive modes and isn't projectile for the auto. In PVE it has become a part of the clone generation for power chronos running StM (Seize the Moment) because the recharge time on Mirror Blade was massively reduced. Mind Stab still does very little given it is a soft CC but that's minor in the grand scheme of things.

    Mesmer staff was originally a support weapon more or less but the fact that mirages used it for the burst on ambush has resulted in some nerfs. Because the only real active damage is on Phantasmal Warlock which is underwhelming power damage you can't run it as mainly condi , you need power stats in some fashion.

    Mesmer scepter doesn't need massive help , it's even part of the condi boon chrono as well as condi chrono. It provides clone generation and has a hefty dose of power damage and confusion for active skills. The issue in competitive modes has more to do with condi burst ability (which is mostly down to pistol which is projectile) than this weapon.

    Revenant hammer is used in WVW for the ranged power damage. It has been nerfed many times as a result. The major drawback as far as PVE is the slow attack rate, which means overall damage is low even though the active skills can do high damage on par or better than melee weapons.

    Renegade shortbow is used in both PVE and competitive modes. It needs no further help and may even be overperforming in some cases.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The tradeoff for lower damage with ranged weapons is that you're generally safer at ranged compared to melee.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

    Actually this is not ALWAYS true. Being in ranged most of the times is more dangerous than being melee. There are 3 disatvantages of being ranged:
    1) Low damage because ranged weapon's weakness
    2) No boons from support classes if they are melee.
    3) No heals either

    You're trying to force something into being a "weakness", when in reality it's just an added option. You can be ranged if that's safer for you, but you can use ranged weapons to attack from the closer range in case you want to be in a group for boons/heals. So point 2 and 3 is mostly false.

    Which makes it even more difficult.

    No, having a choice of dealing damage from the middle of your group or just standing back (which isn't the choice for melee, whether you're solo or in a group) doesn't make anything "more difficult". You seem to be intentionally stretching facts for the sake of just counting more disadvantages when they're not exactly real ones.

    And sure, what he said is not always the case, but that's a pretty sensible justification.

    I feel like I have to point out that there are different types of "melee" as well. For example condi firebrand and holosmith allow you to stand a little further back with lots of their attacks even though they are technically considered "melee". Now compare this to sword weaver where you have to be right on top of the target and you realize that some melee setups are much more vulnerable than others. Some have just enough range flexibility to avoid most possible dangers, even though they are not really ranged. I think this is something that Anet has not even considered in their balancing. So you have more forgiving melee specs dealing comparable damage. Most ranged weapons dip hard in damage, while they are not that much safer than these "melee" options, since the most dangerous enemy attacks are often point blank.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Range weapons that need buffing irrespective of game mode:
    Warrior Longbow and Rifle
    Guardian Scepter AA
    Engi Pistol
    Necro Staff (Needs a better AA and for Marks to have a flip over to detonate them or have ammo charges)

    Agreed, a post I made a while back suggested putting Ammo on Necro's Staff Marks as well.. I still think that's a good idea.
    Glad i'm not alone there ^^

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Rather than basing damage on weapon type, I'd like to see a gradually reduced damage based on distance.

    That way, Ranger's Longbow (as an example), if used within 150 units (melee range) could deal damage equal to regular melee weapons, while dealing next to no damage at 1500 range (as it ideally would be).

    However, with such a change, traits that become stronger at range, like Dragonhunter's Pure of Sight, ought to be reworked (or completely replaced).

    Longbow's were designed for range and power so they should be better and do more damage when you play at longer range..
    The Reasons for this are based on real Longbows.
    Longbows power comes from the Draw, how far you can pull back the bowstring directly effects how powerful the shot will be and how far the arrow will be launched.
    Longbows also used larger and heavier arrows than shorter bows as well to counter the wind at long ranges which could blow lighter arrows off target pretty easily.

    These traits define the longbow as a large and powerful weapon that has exceptional range and power but is very slow and difficult to use, especially in close range combat.

    In Gw2 it makes more sense for Longbows to be weaker at closer Range which is something the Ranger actually has ingrained on the weapon's auto but no other classes do.
    I'd like to see this remedied personally and have all longbow autos on every class have this range mechanic put in place.

    I'd also like to see the target path on longbow autos change as well once you are at a certain range.. lets say 1000 range as an example.
    Once you're at 1000 range your arrows should no longer be shot directly at a target but instead they should be shot overhead and drop down on the targets head.
    This would allow all longbow autos to be better able to shoot at targets on walls in WvW and shoot over certain objects like barriers or fences.
    (This is something the weapon should excel at but is utterly garbage at right now outside of ground targeted abilities like Barrage)
    All Longbow Autos should have longer cast times at 1000+ range though as a trade off for this change.. and Dragonhunters would probably have to loose their Ricochet at the same range as well.

    None of that fixes the problem with stacking though.
    Honestly I can't see much of a fix for Warrior and Guardian/Dragonhunter although Warriors do have exceptional might stacking capabilities so I don't think it's as much an issue for them.. I don't use Warrior LB much though so i've got no good builds in mind for that.

    Ranger though could be made to benefit from their pet being in melee range.. perhaps a trait that allows the ranger to benefit from offensive boons like Might, Alacrity, Quickness and Fury that are cast on the pet while it is among players stacking on a boss.
    That would allow a Longbow Ranger to stay at max range and still get all the might and powerup boons from the rest of the group providing the pet is within range of those buff skills.
    This would still not be optimal though since weapon swapping is essential for DPS rotations so Ranger would still have to jump in and out of Range to make the most of it.
    Thankfully Sword and GS have good leap skills to help that and Sword 3 and Lightning Reflex's are good retreat skills to get back into range fairly quickly for another RF Barrage combo.

  • @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Range weapons that need buffing irrespective of game mode:
    Warrior Longbow and Rifle
    Guardian Scepter AA
    Engi Pistol
    Necro Staff (Needs a better AA and for Marks to have a flip over to detonate them or have ammo charges)

    I respectfully disagree on the "irrespective of game mode" comment.

    Warrior longbow has issues only in competitive mode, it's used on condi Berserker in PVE to great extents. Sure the tracking has problems but so do most ranged weapons (a nonissue if you're staying in near melee range for boon uptime).

    That is more because of the primal burst. The weapon bar itself needs fixing. Fan of fire needs a tighter, aa needs burn by default, arcing arrow needs to be replaced with a better condi skill.

    Warrior rifle was buffed previously but similar to Engineer rifle the damage just isn't there (due to the skills other than burst + Volley) unless you swap weapons. Lots of Gunflame meme builds though.

    Again, more to do with the primal burst. The new ammo system would have been fine if they left the damage alone, but they over nerfed the damage. Rifle 4 needs to evade then attack. Killshot needs the root removed.

    Guardian scepter AA damage was nerfed before in PVE , I don't foresee that changing unless you mean the projectile tracking which other ranged weapons also contend with. For both power and condi builds the high amount of hits on the Symbol of Punishment make the bulk of the damage.

    It frankly needs a different AA. Staff AA sucked and got changed, so there is precedence.

    Engi pistol is a trainwreck in general but engineers have kits to offset that ; it has high splash damage cleave as it hits 5 targets. Ultimately the improvement would have to be on Static Shot probably along with a reduction in cooldown on Poison Dart Volley. The caveat here is the high damage benchmark of condi holo is predicated on grenades, bomb kit, and photon forge: pistol autoattacks basically don't factor in at all.

    Pistol/Pistol on engi us unique sure, but there is not enough umph to it as a set. The existence of kits should not be a reason for it to be bad.

    Necro staff is meta in WVW but could use some bleeding on auto with traits or something. I guess it's because it's mostly a life force weapon that it hasn't been changed ; it has a mark on 4s cooldown so it isn't as bad as people make it out to be when the emphasis is obviously not DPS.

    AA could be faster. Staff 2 is on a short cd sure, but staff 3 and 4 could do with ammo charges or at least conditional recharge.

    Other ranged weapons

    Ranger shortbow is highlighted as a condi weapon that is used in lazy version condi soulbeast (single shortbow soulbeast) for the less tryhard people.

    I love the pew pew of AA : smile: fine weapon, just wish it had longer range.

    Ranger longbow is almost exclusively used in PVE for Barrage and to a lesser extent Rapid Fire. Without the synergy of One wolf Pack and on-hit traits it is much weaker.

    Yeah, but in WvW you end up with meme +40k burst builds. Needs nerfing there before being buffed in PvE.

    Guardian staff is used almost exclusively for its support aspects unless it's a weapon swap to proc burning off symbols.

    I've seen screenshots of it hitting +12k on people. Not too useless then huh?

    Dragonhunter longbow is only usable in PVE where DPS is not the primary goal ; in competitive modes because Deflecting shot counts as CC it does no damage.

    No disagreement.

    Deadeye rifle is typically used on roaming deadeyes and for the power rifle deadeye PVE build when cleave isn't required.

    Before the shortbow nerf in PVP/WVW , thieves pretty much all carried shortbow for the mobility. With the nerf it still does okay cleave (although damage vs targets that aren't poisoned is poor) and area damage but the mobility aspect is largely gutted.

    I think the rest of the player base is warming up their tiny violins on that one tbh.

    It used to be that elementalist staff was meta in PVE , not just WVW. It's currently sometimes used as backline support weapon because of water attunement autos, but generally it isn't as potent as before due to Lava Font nerfs on top of Meteor Shower nerfs.

    I can sympathize. Staff is probably due for a full rework.

    Elementalist scepter is used on fresh air tempest for PVE purposes , but there is a delay on most of the skills which is why dagger is typical for competitive mode tempests that aren't running some sort of well timed scepter spike.

    Necromancer scepter doesn't need help I think , unless the Curses' Lingering Curse trait is going to be innate and split +25% traited / +25% added to the weapon itself instead of a flat +50% duration bonus. Axe has lower damage than Greatsword on Reaper but the boon rip on 12 cooldown is far more potent in that sense and there is vulnerability generation. Ghastly claws also happens to be part of the Reaper damage rotation.

    Mesmer greatsword was sort of a meme before but it hasn't suffered as large a damage nerf in competitive modes and isn't projectile for the auto. In PVE it has become a part of the clone generation for power chronos running StM (Seize the Moment) because the recharge time on Mirror Blade was massively reduced. Mind Stab still does very little given it is a soft CC but that's minor in the grand scheme of things.

    Mesmer staff was originally a support weapon more or less but the fact that mirages used it for the burst on ambush has resulted in some nerfs. Because the only real active damage is on Phantasmal Warlock which is underwhelming power damage you can't run it as mainly condi , you need power stats in some fashion.

    Mesmer scepter doesn't need massive help , it's even part of the condi boon chrono as well as condi chrono. It provides clone generation and has a hefty dose of power damage and confusion for active skills. The issue in competitive modes has more to do with condi burst ability (which is mostly down to pistol which is projectile) than this weapon.

    Revenant hammer is used in WVW for the ranged power damage. It has been nerfed many times as a result. The major drawback as far as PVE is the slow attack rate, which means overall damage is low even though the active skills can do high damage on par or better than melee weapons.

    Renegade shortbow is used in both PVE and competitive modes. It needs no further help and may even be overperforming in some cases.

    No comment on the rest.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    @Twilightmage.8309 said:
    I know that weapons with range should do a bit less damage than melee because of the risk vs reward factor, but staying at range and kiting has its own issues like pulling extra mobs, and stuff with lots of gap closers. In fractals and raids you already want everyone stacked up in melee for buffs so the range doesn't really mean much there at all either. So can we bring the underperforming ranged weapons up to a point where they are considered in higher end pve or even open world in some cases? For example, can we make the big dragon slaying DH longbow good again? How about Warrior rifle, sc/f ele, or the many other ones that barely get touched.

    I know for some of these buffs have been asked for forever, and Anet probably wont ever read this but I figured why not try and get some more build diversity out there without making new elite specs or an expansion.

    Buffs to ranged doesn't not necessarily result in build diversity. You are right though ... ranged has it's own intrinsic advantages will rightfully results in generally less damage on ranged weapons ... and that shouldn't change ... because doing so would actually DIMINISH whatever build diversity does exist.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020

    Remember: Guardian staff used to cleave 5 targets in a large cone , it was the "lootstick".

    I think ranger longbows' rapid-fire "burst" in competitive modes comes down to damage modifiers such as sic'em and merged pet bonuses (which have been shaved down) more so than longbow itself. That and the momentary dismount issue where it doesn't count armor while you drop off the mount are essentially what enable it to spike people. Also as it is projectile it generally isn't as huge a problem as old revenant 2s cooldown CoR (with no invuln against CoR timer) was for example.

    Also above I forget to mention thief pistol mainhand, which is the hallmark of new players that have no idea about DPS. That seriously needs help, it is so bad I forgot it existed for a bit. Here's to hoping the next thief elite spec is condi of some sort so they have a viable condi application. The Deadly ambition nerf meant there really isn't a viable way to apply condis , even before the nerf the best you could do was about 27-30K with daggers, ~27K on pistol mainhand with Deadeye using M7, and ~23K with shortbow. You could try daggers but ultimately it now doesn't have the frequent application and probably would need sigil of earth or something akin to that.
    ---> Ultimately I believe the reason it was made weaker overall is due to the Pistol + Dagger condition thief in PVP (which is more about the surprise burst than sustained damage).

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twilightmage.8309 said:
    I know that weapons with range should do a bit less damage than melee because of the risk vs reward factor, but staying at range and kiting has its own issues like pulling extra mobs, and stuff with lots of gap closers. In fractals and raids you already want everyone stacked up in melee for buffs so the range doesn't really mean much there at all either. So can we bring the underperforming ranged weapons up to a point where they are considered in higher end pve or even open world in some cases? For example, can we make the big dragon slaying DH longbow good again? How about Warrior rifle, sc/f ele, or the many other ones that barely get touched.

    I know for some of these buffs have been asked for forever, and Anet probably wont ever read this but I figured why not try and get some more build diversity out there without making new elite specs or an expansion.

    Buffs to ranged doesn't not necessarily result in build diversity. You are right though ... ranged has it's own intrinsic advantages will rightfully results in generally less damage on ranged weapons ... and that shouldn't change ... because doing so would actually DIMINISH whatever build diversity does exist.

    Lol... what? How is buffing some ranged weapons slightly in pve would result in less build diversity? You do not have to white knight Anet devs logic for no reason. If you think ranged weapons have advantages list them. If you think buffing them will decrease diversity list how (and in case you do respond, no one says or wants them to better than melee weapons).

    OP, talking strictly from pve, some do and some do not. Example, Mesmer scepter is fine, Mesmer staff does need a buff. Guardian scepter and staff are fine, just need fast AA projectile. LB needs damage buffs, but not as much as people expect. Rev SB is pretty good. Hammer should be thrown in the trash (it needs a full redesign). Warrior rifle surely needs buffs. LB, I am not as sure. I think it does. Ele scepter is okay. Staff needs a bit of buff.

    The rest I am not certain.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    Let's take a step back: What is the point of improving 'underperforming' things if they don't prevent you from being successful in the game? Diversity you say? That doesn't make sense if you can ALREADY play whatever you want to succeed in PVE.

    Let's call a spade a spade here ... these calls for 'improvement' for underperformance are because people feel their choices are deficient when they are not. So the fix isn't more buffs ... it's more recognizing this game for what it is.

    Now again, SPECIFICALLY for ranged weapons ... they have intrinsic advantages over melee and I'm not making an academic discussion about that ... MOST of the people in this thread, including the OP, recognize this. Should ranged weapons get more buffs because of build diversity? No, because people that don't choose weapons because of optimal DPS already know they have build diversity.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Let's take a step back: What is the point of improving 'underperforming' things if they don't prevent you from being successful in the game? Diversity you say? That doesn't make sense if you can ALREADY play whatever you want to succeed in PVE.

    Let's call a spade a spade here ... these calls for 'improvement' for underperformance are because people feel their choices are deficient when they are not. So the fix isn't more buffs ... it's more recognizing this game for what it is.

    Now again, SPECIFICALLY for ranged weapons ... they have intrinsic advantages over melee and I'm not making an academic discussion about that ... MOST of the people in this thread, including the OP, recognize this. Should ranged weapons get more buffs because of build diversity? No, because people that don't choose weapons because of optimal DPS already know they have build diversity.

    By this logic, no game dev should make any balance in any pve game ever. Yet for some reasons they do. I wonder why (cuz efficiency is what drives viability, since you are so smart and do not want to turn this is into academic discussion). See using “not choose weapons for optimal dps,” blows anything else you say out the water. There is no logic or reasoning at this point, it is just accept stats quo bull kitten and for...

    Honestly, I am unsure why. Is it a hypocritical attempt to white knight mediocrity, a narcissistic “I know better,” or just good old ignorance.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balance is about trade offs. The trade-off to using melee weapons with more damage is that you're at a greater risk. The trade-off for ranged weapons is lower damage because you're at a much lower risk.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I'm not opposed to underutilized weapons getting some love, but I think it's working as intended if melee weapons deal better damage than ranged weapons in general. Higher risk should equal higher reward.

    There is also more support available for melee than for ranged. Healing and buffs are at their strongest in melee. This isn't always the case as both Scourge and Tempest make for good midline support.

    I don't necessarily agree that a melee weapon needs to be better at DPS than range, but I don't have real strong feelings on it.

    For me, I'd prefer some quality improvements across the board for all under utilized weapons.

    A lot of those are ranged but just as many are melee.

    Some weapons that could use some improvements being Rev hammer, necro dagger, guardian longbow, guardian mace, Guardian hammer, engineer rifle, necro focus, thief daggers, thief sword. And I'm sure there are more...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Let's take a step back: What is the point of improving 'underperforming' things if they don't prevent you from being successful in the game? Diversity you say? That doesn't make sense if you can ALREADY play whatever you want to succeed in PVE.

    Let's call a spade a spade here ... these calls for 'improvement' for underperformance are because people feel their choices are deficient when they are not. So the fix isn't more buffs ... it's more recognizing this game for what it is.

    Now again, SPECIFICALLY for ranged weapons ... they have intrinsic advantages over melee and I'm not making an academic discussion about that ... MOST of the people in this thread, including the OP, recognize this. Should ranged weapons get more buffs because of build diversity? No, because people that don't choose weapons because of optimal DPS already know they have build diversity.

    By this logic, ...

    No hold on here ... the thread is talking about a general ranged buff so we aren't talking about balance. Furthermore, OP claimed this was to increase diversity but we already have all the build diversity we could ever ask for because of the massive range of builds (including ranged weapons) that we can be successful with in PVE. Do not equate performance with some level of build diversity. They are not related.

    In addition, as MANY other people pointed out already in this thread (including the OP) ... there is already an advantage to using ranged weapons over melee that results in a trade off ... in this case being lower damage. This is not a point to be disagreed with; SOME tradeoff needs to exist and if it's not a DPS one, then I'm eager to hear what you have to suggest it SHOULD be to justify increasing ranged weapons DPS.

    If you or anyone else thinks a SPECIFIC ranged weapon needs a change, then propose whatever that specific change should be and why. Certainly, there shouldn't be a general ranged weapon buff just because 'ranged' or 'underperforming'.

    One option to consider ... I've played a game where DPS was equivalent for ranged and melee ... but at SHORT ranges, the ranged weapon DPS drops dramatically to ENCOURAGE fair engagement ... worth thinking about ... but not for GW2.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Some weapons that could use some improvements being Rev hammer, necro dagger, guardian longbow, guardian mace, Guardian hammer, engineer rifle, necro focus, thief daggers, thief sword. And I'm sure there are more...

    Rev's hammer doesn't need much help if at all, it's used in WVW to great extents since its inception.

    Guardian's mace doesn't need help. It is used in WVW to great extents and the only reason why people wouldn't use it in PVE is the extra healing isn't as necessary as fury generation considering you have aegis output from both shield and mantra of solace (which could use toning down).

    Dragonhunter's longbow only needs a bit more damage in PVE, in PVP/WVW it isn't used because CC skills had their damage removed so the only real damage is True Shot. Hunter's Ward is incredibly annoying but isn't quite a damage skill when you account for how long it takes to use it. Symbol of Energy doesn't have a high power coefficient so the weapon is sort of split.

    Guardian's hammer used to be used more often in WVW for blasting fields. There's been some offmeta hammer guardians that capitalize on the high damage hits of Mighty Blow in recent memory. Presumably if guardians could build tankier in PVP you could use them to bunker a point as in core days. Also you can basically maintain protection just by mindlessly auto-ing so I don't think it is wise to suggest improving it much if at all.

    Necro's focus isn't generally used in PVE but it's a strong boon rip in WVW/PVP.

    Engineer's rifle was meta for holos for a bit since you can cycle it with kits. The blunderbuss and jump shot skills do most of the damage on rifle. It still is used on roaming holo builds focusing on elixirs. I would caution against improving it significantly.

    Thief's sword was meta in PVP for the longest time in both sword + pistol and sword+dagger form. Before deadly ambition nerfs it was even used on condition type thieves, it was that ubiquitous.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is not ranged damage not being strong enough, it's not having enough tools to compliment ranged play.

    All ranged weapons in the game with 1200-1500 range have no compliments, so they can't actually weapon swap to use a different set without sacrificing either dps or ranged safety.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    The problem is not ranged damage not being strong enough, it's not having enough tools to compliment ranged play.

    All ranged weapons in the game with 1200-1500 range have no compliments, so they can't actually weapon swap to use a different set without sacrificing either dps or ranged safety.

    Except ranger. GS + LB on ranger is exceedingly balanced.

    Berserker GS + Rifle is okay. Warrior rifle got it's raw damage cut too much in February and rifle. 4 needs to evade before it shoots.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Except ranger. GS + LB on ranger is exceedingly balanced.

    Berserker GS + Rifle is okay. Warrior rifle got it's raw damage cut too much in February and rifle. 4 needs to evade before it shoots.

    Missing my point entirely.

    My point is not that Ranged weapons have no weapon compliments at all, my point is that Ranged weapon has no Ranged compliments at all to allow them to keep fighting at range with weapon swap.

    To swap into melee after Ranged rotation means to give up Ranged safety.

    The only Profession that can sustain full ranged gameplay is probably Rifle Deadeye builds but only due to Ini mechanic.

    Ps I'm pretty sure Soulbeast power builds run Dagger Axe for quickness Axe 5.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Except ranger. GS + LB on ranger is exceedingly balanced.

    Berserker GS + Rifle is okay. Warrior rifle got it's raw damage cut too much in February and rifle. 4 needs to evade before it shoots.

    Missing my point entirely.

    So you mean double 1200-1500 range then?

    My point is not that Ranged weapons have no weapon compliments at all, my point is that Ranged weapon has no Ranged compliments at all to allow them to keep fighting at range with weapon swap.

    To swap into melee after Ranged rotation means to give up Ranged safety.

    Well if that is the case Warrior does have LB+Rifle, not that it is very good. Guardian has scepter+staff, which can get surprising results. Beyond that your are correct.

    The only Profession that can sustain full ranged gameplay is probably Rifle Deadeye builds but only due to Ini mechanic.

    See my above statement.

    Ps I'm pretty sure Soulbeast power builds run Dagger Axe for quickness Axe 5.

    Never seen it. Ever. Every Soulbeast I've seen lately have been meme bow builds. I've had
    people rage swap to their Soulbeast to get revenge on me lol. Longbow Sic'em everytime. Although I can believe it works.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Except ranger. GS + LB on ranger is exceedingly balanced.

    Berserker GS + Rifle is okay. Warrior rifle got it's raw damage cut too much in February and rifle. 4 needs to evade before it shoots.

    Missing my point entirely.

    So you mean double 1200-1500 range then?

    My point is not that Ranged weapons have no weapon compliments at all, my point is that Ranged weapon has no Ranged compliments at all to allow them to keep fighting at range with weapon swap.

    To swap into melee after Ranged rotation means to give up Ranged safety.

    Well if that is the case Warrior does have LB+Rifle, not that it is very good. Guardian has scepter+staff, which can get surprising results. Beyond that your are correct.

    The only Profession that can sustain full ranged gameplay is probably Rifle Deadeye builds but only due to Ini mechanic.

    See my above statement.

    Ps I'm pretty sure Soulbeast power builds run Dagger Axe for quickness Axe 5.

    Never seen it. Ever. Every Soulbeast I've seen lately have been meme bow builds. I've had
    people rage swap to their Soulbeast to get revenge on me lol. Longbow Sic'em everytime. Although I can believe it works.

    Talking bout PvE.

    No one really cares about having great and awesome damage per second in competitive where survival is more valuable than doing best dps in a minute.

    In competitive, the flexibility is more valuable.

    Rangers especially, use their Longbow in a way shorter than effective range because they need to swap to their melee set in order to continue putting out DPS, mooting the design of an extreme long range weapon in the first place.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Except ranger. GS + LB on ranger is exceedingly balanced.

    Berserker GS + Rifle is okay. Warrior rifle got it's raw damage cut too much in February and rifle. 4 needs to evade before it shoots.

    Missing my point entirely.

    So you mean double 1200-1500 range then?

    My point is not that Ranged weapons have no weapon compliments at all, my point is that Ranged weapon has no Ranged compliments at all to allow them to keep fighting at range with weapon swap.

    To swap into melee after Ranged rotation means to give up Ranged safety.

    Well if that is the case Warrior does have LB+Rifle, not that it is very good. Guardian has scepter+staff, which can get surprising results. Beyond that your are correct.

    The only Profession that can sustain full ranged gameplay is probably Rifle Deadeye builds but only due to Ini mechanic.

    See my above statement.

    Ps I'm pretty sure Soulbeast power builds run Dagger Axe for quickness Axe 5.

    Never seen it. Ever. Every Soulbeast I've seen lately have been meme bow builds. I've had
    people rage swap to their Soulbeast to get revenge on me lol. Longbow Sic'em everytime. Although I can believe it works.

    Talking bout PvE.

    No one really cares about having great and awesome damage per second in competitive where survival is more valuable than doing best dps in a minute.

    In competitive, the flexibility is more valuable.

    Rangers especially, use their Longbow in a way shorter than effective range because they need to swap to their melee set in order to continue putting out DPS, mooting the design of an extreme long range weapon in the first place.

    The best rangers I've seen in competitive use LB for as long as possible to drain away your CDs, even using SlB swoop from a bird pet to maintain distance and only swap to GS at the last second to hit GS5 -> maul.

    For PvE? Unless you are speed clearing what does it matter?

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    For PvE? Unless you are speed clearing what does it matter?

    Not sure if GS really has more cleave than Dagger Axe, but I wanna say Dagger Axe is probably better cleave, especially for fractals.

    Longbow actually not bad for cleaving with Ride the Wind, but this is only for Ranger.

    Other ranged weapons have pretty bad cleave or not really good for damage.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    For PvE? Unless you are speed clearing what does it matter?

    Not sure if GS really has more cleave than Dagger Axe, but I wanna say Dagger Axe is probably better cleave, especially for fractals.

    Well, if this is PvE then quickness is coming from elsewhere right? Might as well use Axe MH for split blade and winter's bite then.

    Longbow actually not bad for cleaving with Ride the Wind, but this is only for Ranger.

    True story

    Other ranged weapons have pretty bad cleave or not really good for damage.

    Warrior rifle, symbols on guardian, but Warrior rifle isn't winning a DPS race in PvE and guardian scepter is AA is a joke.