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Do we still hate gearcheck and dps meters?

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  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    ⚡🔥💧 Andezahl 💧🔥⚡
    🌊Archmage of Rata Sum🌊

  • @SidewayS.3789 said:

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    We do know. Its on wiki + also its usualy duration*koeficient besed on type of cc

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    We do know. Its on wiki + also its usualy duration*koeficient besed on type of cc

    We do know != people who start playing do know. I was there once, and I know that.

  • @TamX.1870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    We do know. Its on wiki + also its usualy duration*koeficient besed on type of cc

    We do know != people who start playing do know. I was there once, and I know that.

    True

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019

    Fractals don’t need a gear check or dps check. Fractals only needs an ar check which it’s always had. Raids needs to have a learning mode for those who don’t know it.

    Any kind of add on is technically banable if they decide they don’t want it to be used. Arcdps admits itself that it can get you banned for what it does.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SidewayS.3789 said:

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

    this would be basic knowlegde for a fractal god

  • Vargs.6234Vargs.6234 Member ✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019

    I just started playing again and am very disappointed to see that GW2 has dps meters. The lack of them was a huge boon in my eyes.

    They stress me out and turn what should be a cooperative experience into a competitive one. I became accustomed to topping dps meters all the way back in vanilla WoW and ever since then I find it completely unacceptable to not be in the #1 spot. What should be a chill, fun group activity where everyone works together becomes the opposite as I stare down some meter to make sure that I am above everyone else, hoping that they screw up so that I can pull farther ahead and feeling like garbage whenever I make a minor mistake that doesn't matter at all but does reduce my damage for that run.

    I find myself constantly doing dangerous things for the sake of ensuring the highest uptime possible, even though the group would be better served by playing it safer. I don't like buffing or helping others because they are competition on the meters and I try to avoid doing encounter mechanics, instead letting others deal with them and the associated loss in dps. I'll pad out my meter on things that don't matter, even blowing cooldowns to do so when they would be better used elsewhere.

    You could say that this is just a "me" problem, but coming from other games with dps meters, this mindset is incredibly, incredibly pervasive and is difficult to escape from. What's more is that they are completely unnecessary. Before GW2 had meters I had little issue figuring out who the good players were. Last year I was playing project1999, a classic everquest 1 private server which only has very limited parsing tools that almost nobody uses, and it was still perfectly possible to tell who was skilled without everyone having to obsess over a somewhat arbitrary number at all times.

    Another issue that I take with this is that it solidifies meta even more. Without meters I don't really mind if I'm playing a class that doesn't quite pump out the same numbers as another. We still get through things just fine. I played ranger and necro in dungeons/fractals pre-HoT on a semi-regular basis even though they were pretty terrible, and it wasn't an issue. But with meters, playing a weaker profession means that you are going to fall lower on these ever-present rankings which is a real quick way to make you dislike a class that you may otherwise really enjoy and that is perfectly capable of smoothly clearing content.

    I do think that these sorts of addons hold value in helping you personally improve as a player. They can assist you in getting your rotation down, they can help you test new builds, and they can let you know if a certain encounter strategy is paying off. But group dps meters are a curse that have no place in a cooperative game, and if I had to lose the former to eliminate the latter, I would say it is 100% a worthwhile trade-off. I think that Anet should step in here.

  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

    this would be basic knowlegde for a fractal god

    Maybe you need to learn english? I said IN THE GAME. For pugs to go on wiki to see how much "x" item does, its way too hard.

    ⚡🔥💧 Andezahl 💧🔥⚡
    🌊Archmage of Rata Sum🌊

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2019

    @SidewayS.3789 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

    this would be basic knowlegde for a fractal god

    Maybe you need to learn english? I said IN THE GAME. For pugs to go on wiki to see how much "x" item does, its way too hard.

    If you want to put it like that, I know "English" (No need to capitalize anymore?)
    Myself, and several others are clearly bad at English, hence our reply...

    That, or you never stated "in the game" as can be seen in your original post!

    @SidewayS.3789 said:

    Well you're idea its great. Because at the end of the day, imo, we should teach ppls that Blue Bar its not something cosmetic below Red Bar, its something that needs to be removed with CC skills. One thing i can point on Anet : To put how much your CC skill does to the blue bar. Exemple #5 Staff on Revenant gives = x Blue Dmg. As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it. Imo its a QoL that needs to be addressed.

    ^ Show me where it does say "in the game".
    What it does say: As we speak, we don't know how much our CC skills or metal rods/planks/boulders are doing it.

    Crystal clear if you ask me.

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2019

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Trying to achieve highest DPS possible is now considered toxic? Noice

    No, but being told by some muppet with a dps meter that you are not the highest dps of the groups dps roles is certainly toxic.

    Nobody gives a kitten as long as the boss is dead. So that fellow can shove it up his kitten . And anyone who really feels like the world should know of their dps, even though some guide spoon fed it to them, deserves to fet tied up with barbwire and jabbed with forks by an army of octopus.

    Very rarely does that happen in a vacuum with no other factors. I've never seen a single instance of someone being called out for being the lowest dps in the team unless their dps was abysmally lower than everyone else including bosses that have rng mechanics that require you to leave the group. Only times I've ever seen a callout is when chronos overtake you. That's just shameful.

    Why shouldnt people care? Bosses can be 9 manned pretty easily. If I join a Matt run in full nomads gear as a dps it's still possible for the group to clear. I just wouldn't have contributed in any way whatsoever and should be removed from the group promptly. If you're so against reading guides for other peoples builds I'd love to see how your custom build stacks up against theirs.

    Just because you've not seen this, doesn't mean it hasn't happened to someone. Im not saying its a common occurrence in GW2. As Ive seen this only a few times. But this was sure as hell common in WoW cesspit of a raiding community.

    So forgive me if I am apprehensive about people with DPS meters. But Im well within my right to kick someone from a group for mentioning it out of pure anxiety and distrust, just as someone is in their right to kick a player for not being in meta for anxiety and distrust.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Trying to achieve highest DPS possible is now considered toxic? Noice

    No, but being told by some muppet with a dps meter that you are not the highest dps of the groups dps roles is certainly toxic.

    Nobody gives a kitten as long as the boss is dead. So that fellow can shove it up his kitten . And anyone who really feels like the world should know of their dps, even though some guide spoon fed it to them, deserves to fet tied up with barbwire and jabbed with forks by an army of octopus.

    Very rarely does that happen in a vacuum with no other factors. I've never seen a single instance of someone being called out for being the lowest dps in the team unless their dps was abysmally lower than everyone else including bosses that have rng mechanics that require you to leave the group. Only times I've ever seen a callout is when chronos overtake you. That's just shameful.

    Why shouldnt people care? Bosses can be 9 manned pretty easily. If I join a Matt run in full nomads gear as a dps it's still possible for the group to clear. I just wouldn't have contributed in any way whatsoever and should be removed from the group promptly. If you're so against reading guides for other peoples builds I'd love to see how your custom build stacks up against theirs.

    Just because you've not seen this, doesn't mean it hasn't happened to someone. Im not saying its a common occurrence in GW2. As Ive seen this only a few times. But this was sure as hell common in WoW cesspit of a raiding community.

    So forgive me if I am apprehensive about people with DPS meters. But Im well within my right to kick someone from a group for mentioning it out of pure anxiety and distrust, just as someone is in their right to kick a player for not being in meta for anxiety and distrust.

    Your group your rules. Stick to like minded players and everyone wins.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vargs.6234 said:
    They stress me out and turn what should be a cooperative experience into a competitive one. I became accustomed to topping dps meters

    may be this is totally only yours personal problem/bonus/happines/sad/etc

  • FOX.3582FOX.3582 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    I hate the fact that we don’t have it in-game so I have to download and replace some cráp after every freaking patch. I will never understand how developers get it in their minds to create ‘you-need-high-dps’ stuff without an actual dps meter. They should be ashamed of themselves. Same goes for turning the meta 360 over and over again, without build templates. The biggest noobs don’t play raids, they create em.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    If ya join LFG and gearcheck, you're in for a bad time and will probably suck the joy out of other people's time as well.

    If you form a guild for the express purpose of high end, efficient, runs and you gearcheck / metabuild check at the door? Good on you, and I hope you achieve all your goals in the game.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:
    If ya join LFG and gearcheck, you're in for a bad time and will probably suck the joy out of other people's time as well.

    There would be nothing to talk about if that if the guy that joins the LFG has correct build commander asked for. If anything, having gearcheck available for everyone would stop such incidents from happening. I respect honesty, If somebody comes up to me and asks me to let him stay because he has slightly different build I will let him stay in the squad.

  • DutchRiders.2871DutchRiders.2871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I think this game has an infinitely more toxic environment than WoW and FFXIV precisely because it allows for a lot of obfuscation, so when there is failure there are no practical parsing tools and add ons to not only show DPS, but healing and damage taken, and specifically pinpointing what the damage intake was for each member so you know who's failing mechanics.

    Often people will pull up DPS meters, which DO matter, but 12-13k is more than enough and the reason people want even higher numbers is because they want to ignore that sometimes the reason they are wiping is because they are failing soft mechanics (by soft mechanics, I mean taking unnecessary damage that may not necessarily be lethal but when taken frequently enough leads to DPS loss because the player starts panicking about trying to not die, the healer is over stressed and trying to chase down improperly positioned, panicked players and in general the attention span for the group breaks and mechanics start to get sloppy).

    I see this more than ever in Artsariv, where she is a very simple encounter if you a) don't eat more orange circles than you need to, b)use your hypernova to break stuns if stability is not being applied, c) the adds are being ignored in lieu of trying to tunnel DPS and they end up cleaving the party down with certain instabilities.

    Same goes for MAMA in CM, it's a total disaster when people start ignoring how vital damage avoidance and proper CC application are to the encounter.

    So when people don't have the add on and tools support to tell fact from fiction through hard data, they start making conclusions on mere anecdote. And that's just terrible for the health of the game.

    The issue here is that alot of the meta specs are not meant to avoid mechanics etc. They are meant in coordinated groups to burst hard and skip mechanics.

    It is funny that you mention artasiv cause if you burst hard while having aegis/stability and reflect you dont need any heals nor do you need to kill the anomaly.

    Copying the meta builds in a pug is a waste of time since you lack the coordination. Hence you should not kick players for playing something non meta.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vargs.6234 said:

    You could say that this is just a "me" problem, but coming from other games with dps meters, this mindset is incredibly, incredibly pervasive and is difficult to escape from.

    Even after reading the rest of your post, I still fail to see how this is anything but a "you" problem. The same data is available to many others who don't share your same obsessive desire to be in the top spot on the arcdps list every single time. I don't even raid, but I added arcdps just to see what kind of numbers I could pull. It's been extremely informative, and even on a dps build I don't get upset when someone pulls ahead of me. I tend to ask people who severely outperform me how they pull that off, and the response has been uniformly good. The reverse is also true; I often get whispers from other party members who are using arcdps, and are interested in how I reached my numbers, or if they were interested in how I did on some non-dps metric. I've found that fellow arcdps users were like me - just interested in getting better, not necessarily being the best.

    What's more is that they are completely unnecessary. Before GW2 had meters I had little issue figuring out who the good players were.

    When content causes pugs to fail at a high rate, groups will always seek to find some sort of filter. While dps is admittedly not the be-all-end-all measurement of a successfully contributing player, it's far more relevant and less arbitrary than asking for AP or other stand-ins.

  • gonzi.7605gonzi.7605 Member ✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    Sadly most people get that "im the best, i dont make any mistake, it someone else fault" mindset. I NEVER blame anyone until im sure i did the best in that situation. And i dont mean highest numbers, im talking about for example mechanics or whatever is the reason we failed raid/fractal/anything. The good example are these balls in CM 100. Most players even when see someone failed bouncing it will never go in and save the day. Better put some higher numbers and fail it. And when i saved everyone doing the bouncing bcs our chrono failed after fight i get "kitten this ele, how pathetic he is, doing so low dmg, hahaha"... Sometimes i rly wish i could lost my brain like all the others. It would be so much simpler.

    Sure, there are some people who use their own, weird build and cant do anything... but in most cases its just searching for someone to blame, so called "witch hunt". And the best example of it is when everyone died... they check and kick the person with lowest dps. What dps have to death from failed mechanics or standind in red? I just dont have idea how they can tell "this dps in not enought, we cant do that" when we got over half of the time and boss got less than half hp. When i see someone start witch hunt - i just quit. No matter what. Even if they kick totally strange person. Its just so arrogant and lame attitude.

    And this is only thing in gw2 sadly. When i was raiding in few others mmo nobody looks at dps check/meter or anything. If someone did then for themselves - either to improve or be proud of dealing highest dps at boss. Thats healthy feeling, but when you use this only to blame others... it could never exist. I remember one funny thing... when somehow i go out of combat at one CM in the middle of boss fight just for split second, even not, and someone bark at me about low dps number and afking. Nobody believed me until they checked boss health and dmg xD.

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, yes we do.
    (At least a part of us).

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @gonzi.7605 said:
    Sadly most people get that "im the best, i dont make any mistake, it someone else fault" mindset. I NEVER blame anyone until im sure i did the best in that situation. And i dont mean highest numbers, im talking about for example mechanics or whatever is the reason we failed raid/fractal/anything. The good example are these balls in CM 100. Most players even when see someone failed bouncing it will never go in and save the day. Better put some higher numbers and fail it. And when i saved everyone doing the bouncing bcs our chrono failed after fight i get "kitten this ele, how pathetic he is, doing so low dmg, hahaha"... Sometimes i rly wish i could lost my brain like all the others. It would be so much simpler.

    good dps helps incredible much tho, you can basically phase her before the orbs is halfway. But yes if a BS doesn't kills anomaly's or does orbs/fails them he deserves a kick, it's literally his job, a dps or support shouldn't do them other than first two if the BS is doomed. The dps loss of no boons, no scholar or just less dps isn't worth it and saying someone else should just do it instead kick makes no sense, if a dps is pulling support dps numbers, a healer not healing or a chrono/ren/fb not giving boons they deserve a kick too because they're not doing their role.

    Sure, there are some people who use their own, weird build and cant do anything... but in most cases its just searching for someone to blame, so called "witch hunt". And the best example of it is when everyone died... they check and kick the person with lowest dps. What dps have to death from failed mechanics or standind in red? I just dont have idea how they can tell "this dps in not enought, we cant do that" when we got over half of the time and boss got less than half hp. When i see someone start witch hunt - i just quit. No matter what. Even if they kick totally strange person. Its just so arrogant and lame attitude.

    in fractals having one dps doing less than the bs means they're basically half the supposed dps they're doing. This will increase the chance mechanics happen and increase the healing needed and harder to maintain boons and harder to instant cc. If you can see this is a giant snowball effect. So yes in exp groups kicking a low dps is the best option to clear the content, I rather have a second proper dps that can carry his weight and make the job easier for everyone. Playing all roles in fractals I know atleast what everyone should do and howmuch harder it is to heal/maintain perma boons if dps is lacking. even if I host a 50kp run, I don't want a dps to deal too low dps because he's not carrying their weight.

    And this is only thing in gw2 sadly. When i was raiding in few others mmo nobody looks at dps check/meter or anything. If someone did then for themselves - either to improve or be proud of dealing highest dps at boss. Thats healthy feeling, but when you use this only to blame others... it could never exist. I remember one funny thing... when somehow i go out of combat at one CM in the middle of boss fight just for split second, even not, and someone bark at me about low dps number and afking. Nobody believed me until they checked boss health and dmg xD.

    Can't say for other MMo's cause never really played them, but I know from friends people do look and care about dps of others. Even in rs3 I heard my clan exclude/block people that could 4taa when it was still a thing because it'll lower the dps by a good bit and this was way harder to do than practice rotation in gw2.
    Imma call BS on going OOC in a CM boss fight, as soon as the fight starts and you're in the arena you get put in combat and u stay in combat till fully dead or boss is dead