[lore discussion] Conflict over Aurene's change — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[lore discussion] Conflict over Aurene's change

EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭
edited June 7, 2019 in Lore

So there is been one thing bugging me that is known to be a plot that happens a lot in storylines....

Will there be a new Enemy faction born from Pact soldiers that split off from the Pact because of the fear for Aurene become a new Elder Dragon?

The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

I fear we may see a conflict in the future born from the Pact splitting up into a new enemy faction that may end up turning some friends into enemies because of their beliefs and personal feelings about Elder Dragons along with the scars left by the other Elder Dragon's actions.

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's not like they closed their eyes and ears to what's been happening. They won't suddenly turn on us like that for no reason. Their goals shifted over time as well.

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There were suggestions as far back as Season 2 that some people would want to see Glint's egg / scion dead, even having Canach suggest destroying the egg in Season 2. They had also established the potential of a fallout for when we discovered we shouldn't kill anymore Elder Dragons. But like all civil conflict plots it ended up joining those set ups that got swept under the rug and forgotten, just like the sylvari racism plot from S2 finale / HoT.

    By the point of War Eternal, it seems like everyone and their supremely racist grandmother loves Aurene and knows her to be the one true savior and messiah (aka literal crystal dragon jesus).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    most of the soldiers know that the ED are required to not implode reality. maybe an enemy faction might happen (like some norn hunters) but i doubt it'll be former allies

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

    The pact was formed as a fusion between the three orders of Tyria. Stopping the threat from the Elder Dragons has been their common goal, but the means are very fundamentally different.

    Vigil: The Vigil is a military order dedicated to fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions by force of arms
    Whisperers: They work behind the scenes to safeguard the world against the rise of the Elder Dragons
    Durmand Piory: The Durmand Priory is one of three major multi-racial orders who are looking for ways to combat the Elder Dragons. They hope that intellect, or some lost piece of knowledge, can save the world from the rise of the dragons.

    (all quotes from the wiki pages of the orders)

    So the individuals disagreed even before the pact about the approach. Some wanted to find wasy to put them back to slumber. Some where looking for survival of the citizens and some wanted to fight them heads on. The battle of Claw Island made them go under one united banner. the commander has been leading them on a heads on approach at first. This nearly whiped out the pact, but also cause major harm to Tyria itself. The commander learned from his mistakes and I have no reason to see the common soldier to disagree with his decissions.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    Contrary to apparently everyone else here, I think it is entirely plausible.
    What seems reasonable to us internet-generation left-wing green-activist lore hippies is unreasonable idiocy to those far-right capitalist conservatives. Not to mention the Communist Party.
    Point is there are as many opinions as there are people, and Tyrian people seem very much too homogenous in their opinions on what should've been done. On the other hand, the Pact may just consist of likeminded people.
    So while I think it's possible that the Pact fractures, I find it more likely that some other formerly friendly party/group turns antagonistic towards the Commander and Gang. Like the Blood Legion, or the Consortium, or any other group that has expressed differing views to how we handle things.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

    The pact was formed as a fusion between the three orders of Tyria. Stopping the threat from the Elder Dragons has been their common goal, but the means are very fundamentally different.

    Vigil: The Vigil is a military order dedicated to fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions by force of arms
    Whisperers: They work behind the scenes to safeguard the world against the rise of the Elder Dragons
    Durmand Piory: The Durmand Priory is one of three major multi-racial orders who are looking for ways to combat the Elder Dragons. They hope that intellect, or some lost piece of knowledge, can save the world from the rise of the dragons.

    (all quotes from the wiki pages of the orders)

    So the individuals disagreed even before the pact about the approach. Some wanted to find wasy to put them back to slumber. Some where looking for survival of the citizens and some wanted to fight them heads on. The battle of Claw Island made them go under one united banner. the commander has been leading them on a heads on approach at first. This nearly whiped out the pact, but also cause major harm to Tyria itself. The commander learned from his mistakes and I have no reason to see the common soldier to disagree with his decissions.

    While yes the starting members are only from the Orders during the battle for Lion Arch during Zhaitan Arc, the Pact also recruited outside help and more new and familiar faces joined after the Pact's formation as well. In the Zhaitan Arc we see a lot of this as a lot of people we encountered before Zhaitan Arc decided to join after the Pact was formed or got recuited through connection within the Orders.

    This increased once we got to the Mordy Arc when the Race leaders decided to make direct contribution by sending members of their forces to become part of the Pact as a"symbol" of support.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    While I'd say sure, it's possible, such a group would be a minority.

    Yes some in thunderhead expressed concern after Aurene "branded" Caithe, but even then most seemed okay with the idea of a friendly elder dragon. A group that would be against Aurene would be a vast minority, as the leadership elements saw Aurene as a friendly force and not a threat.

  • I mean for some it kinda helps that they can sense Bath Salts inside of Aurene

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    While I'd say sure, it's possible, such a group would be a minority.

    Yes some in thunderhead expressed concern after Aurene "branded" Caithe, but even then most seemed okay with the idea of a friendly elder dragon. A group that would be against Aurene would be a vast minority, as the leadership elements saw Aurene as a friendly force and not a threat.

    You actually raise a great point there and that reminded me of how utterly stupid and out of character the cast's reactions were when that scene unfolded. No way they would have been upset about a clearly still sentient Caithe being branded they way they were. Especially Rytlock. Aurene saved their bums multiple times and suddenly he is like WOAH YOU EVIL?!

    I think they completely subdued that flimsy story thread by showing us the Crystal Bloom and how they worship their new shiny dragon overlord though.

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    So there is been one thing bugging me that is known to be a plot that happens a lot in storylines....

    Will there be a new Enemy faction born from Pact soldiers that split off from the Pact because of the fear for Aurene become a new Elder Dragon?

    The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

    I fear we may see a conflict in the future born from the Pact splitting up into a new enemy faction that may end up turning some friends into enemies because of their beliefs and personal feelings about Elder Dragons along with the scars left by the other Elder Dragon's actions.

    would be nice, like in swtor, two factions fight. so your toon could be evil char, or kind hearted loves all char. :P

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    At least since the Joko Arc I've been waiting for more "variety of opinion", so to speak. Isn't it strange we never hear of any other guilds beside DE / DW? Aren't they supposed to be a thing in this world? All the time we spent in Elona, far away from Tyria, I would have thought some other people had tried to be famous heroes themselves. We saw this a little bit with Braham in LS3, but why was that the only try?

    If everyone is just very, very reasonable and understanding and totally content with fighting for whatever we want at any given moment, that's nice and makes it easier for us, sure. But usually, people are not that reasonable all the time. I don't really see a major good vs evil conflict here, but I'm still waiting for other NPC guilds or some wannabe heroes to appear and try to solve things differently / become famous themselves. Especially at times when DW and the PC are far away.

  • Aurene will work to gain respect and friendliness from other races as commander did, by helping and saving them.

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭

    Dragons as bad guys have run their course.

    But I could see a few former pact generals and future wannabe warlords discovering Joko's secrets to long life and beauty and becoming the next big threat

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There were suggestions as far back as Season 2 that some people would want to see Glint's egg / scion dead, even having Canach suggest destroying the egg in Season 2. They had also established the potential of a fallout for when we discovered we shouldn't kill anymore Elder Dragons. But like all civil conflict plots it ended up joining those set ups that got swept under the rug and forgotten, just like the sylvari racism plot from S2 finale / HoT.

    By the point of War Eternal, it seems like everyone and their supremely racist grandmother loves Aurene and knows her to be the one true savior and messiah (aka literal crystal dragon jesus).

    Aurine Aurine Dragon full of Christ XD

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's an infrequently repeated theme for Dragondestiny's Edgewatch to question the... kindness of the scion of the Crystal Dragon. And imo, it was done well -

    I agree with that and think a lot of that had to do with Aurine lacking her own way of communicating with us as well
    Until Caithe allowed herself to be fused.. branded.. connected :S to Aurine there was no way Aurine could communicate with us outside of visions.
    I don't blame the other members of Dragons Watch for being skeptical about Aurine.

    They didn't bond with her like We and Caithe did, they didn't help raise her either.
    Their only real experience with her was in combat situations and not once could she speak and share her feelings and opinions with any of them.
    It's completely fair for them to distrust her under those circumstances and the more powerful and Elder Dragonlike she gets the more doubt and mistrust would fester because they couldn't know her intentions nor was there any way for them get a good reading on them.

    Speaking through Caithe and Sacrificing herself was enough to convince everyone she was truly good.. and it was done well imo too.

  • Weindrasi.3805Weindrasi.3805 Member ✭✭✭

    Konig's idea about Almorra would have been great. Wish they'd done something like that.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    I think Almorra ranting and raging against Aurene would've felt awkward, out of place, and forced.

    She spent most of the time in thunderhead at the fort itself, you can find her hanging out on the side-path into the main fort area where the north meta is. In Jahai Almorra spent her time focusing on killing the death-branded Shatterer.

    Even then, yelling at Aurene when the commander shows intense trust would possibly cause morale issues and distrust. Almorra may want revenge against Kralkatorrik but she's a very smart leader and understands that Morale is important to any army, and such a large joint-force operation requires every group to trust each other. If the sunspears trust the commander, but don't know Almorra and see her in conflict with the commander (even just verbal), it could alter the relationship between the sunspears and the vigil.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I think Almorra ranting and raging against Aurene would've felt awkward, out of place, and forced.

    She spent most of the time in thunderhead at the fort itself, you can find her hanging out on the side-path into the main fort area where the north meta is. In Jahai Almorra spent her time focusing on killing the death-branded Shatterer.

    Even then, yelling at Aurene when the commander shows intense trust would possibly cause morale issues and distrust. Almorra may want revenge against Kralkatorrik but she's a very smart leader and understands that Morale is important to any army, and such a large joint-force operation requires every group to trust each other. If the sunspears trust the commander, but don't know Almorra and see her in conflict with the commander (even just verbal), it could alter the relationship between the sunspears and the vigil.

    IMO, your entire argument for why it would feel "awkward, out of place, and forced" is more or less why it would work. Though she wouldn't be "ranting and raging". I said "insulting and threatening" - there's a stark difference, and it's possible our mental images could be different due to the associations of those words. I'm not saying she should act towards Aurene the way she does towards the Shatterer and Kralkatorrik, but more an in-between of that and Canach's reactions when Aurene does questionable things.

    Sure, she's a smart leader, but emotions tend to make logical people function irrationally, and intense hatred for something would definitely qualify as an emotion to make people act irrational. She might have been focused on killing the Shatterer in the open world, but she could have easily gotten a chance to get close to Aurene during the first instance, which would be their very first meeting, and before Almorra had a chance to see the Commander's trust in Aurene. As for in THP, she literally does nothing in the map, and all that would be needed is a dialogue box (which they didn't even bother making) where she questions Aurene and makes a threat solely for the Commander's ears. A "if you're wrong, I'll be first in line to put her down" kind of threat, if not a "I don't trust her to be different" feel of a threat. Similarly in the final instance, she was present and could have had just a couple brief lines towards that same concept.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm leaning towards the emergence of the omlakhan, the goremonger, and the brothers logan and rytlok that we are going to see the fight taken to putting the ascalonian ghosts to rest and dismantling of the flame legion. Plus the goremonger telling the current charr haters to take the fight to the real enemy it would probably help smooth things over it worked for rytlok and logan lets go kill someone else instead :)

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in my mind, people will fear the commander as something akin to the new balthazar with an elder dragon ally.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    in my mind, people will fear the commander as something akin to the new balthazar with an elder dragon ally.

    That actually sounds like fun.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sure, she's a smart leader, but emotions tend to make logical people function irrationally, and intense hatred for something would definitely qualify as an emotion to make people act irrational.

    This is an older comment/thread but I kinda have jump on this a bit.

    The logic you're applying here would be true for a normal person, or even lower ranks in a military. However, a military leader of Almorra's caliber/rank can keep a lid on their emotions in all situations, no matter how stressful it is. Leaders that don't learn this ability don't stay in that position for long because it's dangerous for everyone involved in their decision making. Logan learned this exact ability between the events of the novel and present day, which is why he is now the Marshal of the Pact, and he's earned it.

    High ranking military leaders that are worth their position have slight psychopathic tendencies in a way that their emotions are muted. And it's a completely normal state of being for them.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.