Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 6th 2019 - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 6th 2019

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  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Greetings again all,

    Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

    Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

    As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.
    Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

    • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
    • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
    • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
    • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

    Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

    Items

    • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    Engineer

    • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
    • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
    • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
    • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
    • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
    • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

    Guardian

    • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
    • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.
    • Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
    • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
    • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

    Mesmer

    • Illusion of Life: Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
    • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
    • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
    • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    Ranger

    • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

    Revenant

    • Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
    • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

    Thief

    • Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 2 seconds in PvP & WvW. Reduce the internal cooldown from 5s to 2s in PvP & WvW.

    Warrior

    • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
    • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
    • Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
    • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

    Thanks once again for your feedback and for keeping things focused.

    Sincerely,
    ~Irenio

    I honestly wouldn't make any of these changes. In doing so, you just drive build diversity further out the window. Especially when I look at the necro changes... I see the phrase "We hear you"

    Well you are hearing the wrong people. You are hearing people that clearly havn't the foggiest idea of what actual balance is. In fact, I know many of us keep saying Anet needs to listen to feedback, but I think in all honesty, Anet should simply cut the ties with all of it's users in regards to feedback.

    The Sand Savant thing was addressed in another thread where someone tried to complain about Sand Savant hitting too many targets, and here you've addressed Sand Savant. The user during their video showed just how weak and pathetic the full on bomb from this skill is; it's absolutely laughable just how weak it is. It doesn't matter how many targets it hits. It's like complaining about a regular arrow cart hitting 50 people for 300 damage.

    Then the other change.. devouring darkness this makes no sense. The community certainly is mostly divided when it comes to feedback which is why Anet really shouldn't be listening to us at all. There is one thing we can all agree on though, boon spam is completely and utterly out of control. It is what breaks builds, like completely breaks them. Then we see the change to devouring darkness, reducing boon corrupt from 3 to 2... I mean really...... really.... Then to make matters worse the Guardian is still running around with that skill that converts 5 conditions to boons on 5 people (functions like an elite skill), yet it sits on a 12 second cool down. Everyone ever who has opened their mouth about feedback has specifically stated numerous time "boon spam is out of control", so a change to devouring darkness converting 2 boons instead of 3 makes less than zero sense.

    Here is another one that makes no sense, reducing long range shot damage in WvW Think about that for a second and where these complaints are coming from. Certainly in a mode that was built for large group fights we see rangers all over the place in zergs firing arrows decimating zergs. In fact, we barely see any rangers at all. Why, because they are next to flat out useless in zergs outside of harassing necros. The only people they are a plague against are those roaming who cannot figure out how to play against them, nor seem to know where their dodge button is. News Flash, roaming is mostly dead now in WvW, so why bother making a change based off such a tiny fraction of the community centered around people who don't want to learn to play against them? You cannot make changes like this. Just stop listening to the community completely when it comes to any type of class changes.

    If Anet wants to make changes, realistically, this is your only option. Remove warrior, necro, engi, ele, revenant, thief, and mesmer off that list completely; make no changes. Go the guardian, and expand change list by a page or 2. Firstly, remove wall of reflect, all retaliation, all aegis support (except on themselves), and lower all their healing by a a factor of 5. Then go through each and every skill on every weapon, and every utility skill, and elite, and lower their damage while increase all their cool downs. Then at least they will be on the save level as other class. Then you can start nerfing their further as Anet does to every other class.

  • Yikes. Going back on aegis nerf of fb makes the balance patch pointless. Meta wont change. Scourges still gonna be needed to remove aegis so classes can do damage which means nothing changes. Super pumped to continue playing this boring WvW meta :)

    atleast stealth will be balanced. Gotta focus on the small victories i guess.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Antitoxin Runes: Genius changes. Great work.

    Engineer: All changes look positive. Reducing range on Holographic Shockwave is a big thumbs up. Damage reduction of holoforge skills is needed.

    Guardian: A bit less aegis is good. Single less condi cleanse is ok. Might need more nerfs in future but its a good approach to go slow and watch the changes in this case as the wvw game mode revolves around this class rn. Sanctuary increase target cap is a good meme but can potentially be big cancer in future.

    Mesmer: Good changes by introducing face target and and los on Power break and Power Lock. Slight nerf and some qol in Illusion of Life is fine. Might want to look at chaos storm and if you ask me removing pulsing aegis, just a single aegis on cast. Mesmer mains might want some other changes in wvw though to make them more desirable in zerg scenarios.

    Necromancer: (Since i play necro i might be biased but i try not to be)
    LOS on Oppressive Collapse is fine. Sand Flare and Sand Cascade changes are ok. Nerfing corruptions is also alright on both axe and scepter.
    Necromancer's sustain is from counter pressure through corruptions and since those are getting nerfed for all builds by weapon skills getting nerfed, i hope to see some qol changes and buffs somewhere else because necro already have very low sustain.
    F2 on scourge needs more functionality for self(not group) aside from boon corrupt from curses. The dependency on curses trait is too much, it also needs cd reduction if untraited or buffed back to 2 cleanses. F3 is in the same boat as F2.
    If target cap is reduced for shades in sand savant, the shade skills will need a lot of adjustment. Please look into scourge utiities and the manner in which they work(very clunky). Wells can be nerfed a bit by reducing damage but making it pulse for more.
    Wishing death magic changes becomes a good traitline for roaming or small scale. Overall ok changes, looking forward to patch for detailed information.

    Ranger: Damage reduction on long range shot is god's gift itself. Needs more damage nerf and more support capability buffs in wvw. Reduce protection uptime.

    Revenant: Reveal is great and damage application changes on cor are great. If they nerf hammer auto attacks a bit that would be perfect.

    Thief: Poison application reduction is great. Please look into staff thief vault spam build.

    Warrior: Pretty neat changes on warhorn. Might not want to decrease cd too much, adding resistance and fury on traited warhorn skills is ok(duration needs to be balanced). Barrier seems odd on warrior thematically. Reduce hammer stun duration. Looking forward to tactics traitline changes.

    Hope to see more reliable stab share sources on some specs.

  • >

    If ranger is gonna be nerf further in WvW at least reduce the amount of reflects/ blocks on other classes (mainly firebrand in this case, ToC Chapter 3, 8x lul).

    As if ranger is not already useless in WvW when fighting outnumbered (talking about 2-3x larger than you are), when there are more reflects than my unblockable. When I can only hit something every 40s.

    I only use 1 unbockable so the previous nerfs to the other 2 unblockables didn't affect me at all ^^.

    ** It's also funny how all the squishy builds are the ones QQing about ranger auto atk doing 10k or more but ignoring the fact that weaver's fireball could do just as much to the same squishy target. How about hitting that ranger back only to find out that you can pop that ranger like a bubble too LOL.**

    This exactly! Especially bolded part. The only good thing a ranger is good at is punishing these squishy builds like full zerker ele, thieves, mesmers. And it's already difficult to kill them. It's actually quite impossible to even down thieves and mesmers and they can just escape easily if they don't stupidly over-commit. Ele has vapor form to get back to zerg and get ressed. We should do something about perma invis 1 shot deadeyes instead.

  • it seems to me that Sand Savant should EITHER a) grant reduced cooldown OR b) reduce the number of possible shades to 1 while increasing the number of targets. not both.

    for MY playstyle, i'd rather have reduced cooldown with 3 shades... but since my scourge runs condi, i take the torment/ burning trait instead

    hmmmm.... perhaps Sand Savant should have it's functionality split up and spread out among the grandmaster traits ... such as the torment trait gets the reduced cooldown for sand shades, while the boonstrip trait gets the single shade with increased targets at an increased cooldown... and then the new Sand Savant trait converts sand shades skill into a teleport which would deal increased damage with increased range where the scourge would teleport to.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for listening to the feedback and adjusting, these seem like they're going to be very positive changes for the game mode!

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    "Barrier: The application of the barrier effect no longer resets the delay or decay of existing barriers. Barrier no longer decays over time; each application now disappears after 5 seconds, and all skills that grant barrier now give 15% more barrier."

    We still don't have the 15% more barrier.

  • defense and discipline is a must for warrior, these is no place for tactics already

    Officer of Equinox Solstice [TIME] / Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    WvW server: Henge of Denravi
    https://discord.gg/P5dj7fd

  • I'm a pretty harsh critic of the systems team at times but this patch definitely looks like a step in the right direction alebit still limited in scope with a lot of work still need to be done.

    Please continue engaging in dialogue with the playerbase in the future.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    The Rune of Antitoxin nerf should give conditions a significantly bigger influence in big scale fights (with Power remaining dominant). It also should reduce cover boon spam a lot. So it's something I'm looking forward to.

    The tiny nerf to sneak gyro won't change much. Smoke field + stealth pulse for 5 allies + its moving with the caster (you can blast it while moving). Thats just too much group stealth from an Engineer.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Firebrand is still going to be little too strong. Reduction of dodge roll healing power ratio (Honor) from 100% to 80% could be one way to touch Firebrands somewhat passive strengths.

    I would have rather made purity of purpose only convert only 1 condition into boon per cleanse, you're nerfing tempest too much by rework of antitoxin runes. So support tempest could use some makeup buffs.

    Also you should consider increasing Elementalist staff CC (air 5, earth 4) targets to 20 so it is worth running over other classes while not making it overbearing regarding damage.

    All the suggested changes are great tho.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Baltzenger.2467Baltzenger.2467 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Very happy with the proposed changes, but is it possible that you give us a little bit more information about changes on warrior's tactics line? I think that it's a bit hard to assess the impact of the changes on warrior's warhorn without knowing the direction tactics will take.

    I already started theoricrafting with what we've seen, and I find it unsubstantial, tactics line is just too subpar, even if you want to go on a full support route with warrior (which could be cool), there's not much space for more support on current compositions, and it's not really a matter of not having competitive options, the thing is, as long as we are constructing the metagame in wvw in terms of 5 ppl groups (say, FB-SCRAPPER-NECRO-NECRO-X) then there's not much space for new or different roles.
    If you nerf scrapper to the point where it won't be used, we will just replace it with another FB or another Scourge, if you nerf FB to the point where it becomes really weak, we will just take more FB to compensate. Stability is too important.
    If more effects affect 10 players, we might start running less of those classes (as they will cover more people) and open new slots for different roles, but it has to be done in such a way that we won't be tempted to keep the same composition but gain double the benefit. (no idea how that could be achieved in wvw, might have to do with a wider look over the metagame).
    It's a similar problem to what we have in PvE raids in fact, and right now there is quite a bit of diversity there, at least on the more casual groups, where you see a firebrand for quickness, a renegade for groupwide alacrity, a chrono for both tanking and quickness, a druid for heals, might and spirits, and warrior for banners.
    If you want to achieve similar results on WvW, you should probably look at that.

    I would be tempted to bring tempest auramancer if I don't have to compare it directly with scrapper, for instance. Maybe make Gyroscopic Acceleration make wells affect 10 players, make auras more powerful or give something extra (the potential of auras is that they are not boons, so it's hard to interact with them). Same with warhorn and warrior, if I want to bring a support warrior, that maybe strips boons with spellbreaker, I have to ask myself, "do I prefer whatever warhorn/tactics brings, or do I want a perfectly decent damage dealer that also stips boons?" Or maybe we don't want it to take spellbreaker's slot, maybe something else, but you need to think in terms of not just what they bring to the table, but what we will take away to give it space.
    I liked that warhorn will increase damage on the next 2 hits for allies, that's a somewhat unique effect that with coordination can make interesting gameplay. At this point all I need is that the tactics line offers something worth building around. The obvious direction is making something with shouts or making something with combos. Combos are very outdated in the game, outside of some niche situations (like blasting for stealth), people don't care much for combos anymore, and shouts are in a tough spot. They compete with stances, which the warrior tends to need in order to stay at melee range with enemy groups, and they themselves don't bring anything that you already don't get plenty of from other classes.
    I hope that as you look at tactics line, you too look at shouts.
    On the other hand, phalanx Strenght does need some love. It doesn't have many synergies with the rest of the line, and the effect is outdated by current standards. Maybe make it so that aside from sharing the might, when you gain might you heal around you for each stack (not yourself tho, to not compete with Might Makes Right), and when a threshold is met, you give stability to allies? Move it to master column and you could have a build between warhorn trait-phalanx strength-vigorous shouts. I would care about blasting fire fields with the warhorn, and about using For Great Justice (it should cover the threshold and give stab around you, you can give the trait an internal CD so it doesn't compete with Stand Your Ground!).
    Well, this are just some ideas, hopefully you can share a bit more about your plans with the Tactics line.

    edit: I would love a take on phalanx Strenght that cares about how many warriors are on your group, that's an effect unexplored on the game.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nerfing booncorrupting from devouring darkness means stronger boonspam, which is already too problematic. You also have to take a full trait line for it to work, a trait line which favors condi builds mostly, not power (which is the current Meta). Plus I'm a bit afraid as to how scourge will end up after sand Savant changes

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the scourge's side, please just stop the list of meaningless nerf and address the real issue. As it stand every single change you list only lead to more scourges into the zergs not less.

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.

    All in all it's not a bad change.

    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.

    Can't you just see that the manifest sand shade proc on the F skills is the problem? Can't you just properly nerf this extra load of damage and conditions instead of nerf skills effect that aren't even close to be an issue in game? Is this difficult to see that the manifest sand shade proc is the responsible for all the complains about the scourge's damages output?

    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.

    What's the point? Is this supposed to address the complains about the loss of survivability that stem from the changes on sand cascade and sand flare? do You think that 500 point of barrier every 30 seconds on a 3 second barrier will really do any good? Nope, it won't.

    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.

    Sand savant isn't an issue, the damage and overload of condition that sand savant carry are.

    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    Let's not forget that the reason the necromancer have that much boon corruption packed onto it's skill is that there is to much boon output in PvP/WvW. Don't change the number of boon corrupted, change the corrupt into a basic boon ripping effect and PvP/WvW will become a better place to play.

    If you want scourge to remain as a support in WvW without monopolising the "raid spots" just remove the damage from F5, remove the manifest sand shade proc on other F skills and change weapon skills boon corrupt into boon ripping. Just stop the meaningless numbers tweaks that lead nowhere.

  • Engineer

    • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.

    I know this patch is going to be centered around WvW but it would drastically improve scrapper if the vitality loss reduction would not just affect pvp/wvw but also pve. It was mainly a pvp centered downside to begin with so if you want to reduce the penalty you absolutely don't have to split the skill.

  • Ydeirt.3905Ydeirt.3905 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Ranger sword changes nods It's been long overdue. Sword 2 need to have the animation delay reduce or removed altogether and hit more 1 enemy, sword 3 needs to be increased in damage and hit more than 1 enemy aswell. Lets hope dagger both main-hand and off-hand also got it's needed changes. Main-hand dagger doesn't even have defensive capabilities, the off-hand might need the damage increase by a bit.

    As for the long shot, its not that great unless the target is pretty squishy. More nerf will eventually kill longbow as a weapon more. At this moment, no longbow is good in the game anymore, not in ranger, not in DH, not in warrior, even more with so many deflect, reflect and missile counter skills.

  • santso.9201santso.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    scourge changes are meanigles, they wont change a thing, just make class to feel even worse to play compared how it is now. if you really want to adress the issue randomly nerfing dmg of certain skills wont do it.

    SAND SAVANT needs rework, i mean full rework not just nerf to target cap. it needs to be made full support grandmaster that takes all damage away from all shade skills and turn effects into healing/boonsupport/cleanses/more barrier(which would allow scourge work as healer without taking blood magic which honestly is garbage traitline even for support in wvw.

    feed from corruption should be changed to allow mass corruptions with small shade and demonic lore should get some dmg modifier to allow dps builds to benefit from it with small shade.
    those changes would open up build diversity and increase skillcap of the class.

  • Thanks for reading us, Anet :)

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Please do not add resistance to warrior warhorn. Just because a weapon / skill / traitline is underutilized doesn't necessarily mean it should be powercrept to match all the other currently dominant builds.
    Resistance is a very powerful boon as it grants immunity to a big part of attacks your opponents can throw at you so access to it should be scarce. 10-man resistance on a 20s cd sounds too short. Moreover, resistance is given on top of a 10 man barrier + damage boost, which is already a pretty big buff. It's not as if warrior isnt already dominant in wvw currently when their boon removal bubble already does an important job in a fight that no other class can really replace.
    These buffs will just make warrior, a class that's already meta, even more dominant in a zerg as I would gladly sacrifice some damage / cc when i have such a strong set of buffs i can give to 10 allies on a 20s (short) cd.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    These sound great. I like that the illusion if life change was changed and that the aegis was not full removed from FB tomes.

    Overall good changes.

    Because I main ranger though I have to say this: I would not change gameplay due to the changes. Not because glassy builds suit me or your changes have no impact but rather because condi ranger lacks real competitive options.
    Shortbow has a pitiful range, daggers have no utility or no burst (MH and OH respectively). Traps are to immobile and mundane and torch Dienst bring enough utility to the table either.
    I would love to play condi ranger in all game modes but it just lacks use. It has only damage and even then I would use power because it's more engaging.

  • Listen to my boys Novaaura and SloRules. They have the right idea about these changes.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    Necromancer

    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.

    ~Irenio

    When talking about Sand Savant specifically, It was designed as a Support trait, right? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've always felt it was a support trait. I honestly don't use it all that much in PvE since its damage nerf is so strong that its not worth me taking it over Demonic lore. So my perspective on this is that taking Sand Savant should push you much harder into that support role. Perhaps its not just a change on its target limit, but strips its ability to apply torment and crippling but changes the pulse to grant allies a useful boon or two? My thought might be Protection and regen. We don't use that concentration much on the scourge and it would be nice to see more ways to use that, and more reason to build into boon duration.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    Guardian

    • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.

    To be honest the 5 stacks never felt like the problem. The "overshare" of stability on 10 people instead of 5 is the bigger thing in my opinion.
    With 5 targets it is a good skill(as it was for years) but with 10 targets it isn't important if it gives 3 or 5 stacks of stability. 10 targets is just too much value because after a corruppt-spike you can instantly re-apply stab to 1/5 of the zerg. It just shares stab to to many players and that is the reason why you need so many corrupts.

  • @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Greetings again all,

    Mesmer

    • Illusion of Life: Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
    • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
    • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
    • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

    This, doesnt do anything at all for group chronos. We still cant shatter or csplit at all, Illusuin of life is a big nerf as well since most people that arnts super ready for it can not cast stuff for a brief moment when they get up, and even if they are ready they can dodgeroll. Still a brief moment where they need to re-kitten where to go. Please dont count fixes as buffs to balance, we already cant double illusion of life with the removed csplit so its already half power from before.

    Just fix the shatters. Please. In all game modes or just wvw. I've had way too many newbies also asking "why i cant shatter"> "kitten class" its depressing.

  • Thank you for communicating! I love Holo nerfs and I think for PvP specifically they need even more shaving. They deal way too much damage and have way overtuned sustain for just how easy it is to use, but the Corona Burst and Holo Shockwave nerfs are both crucial and much needed. Poison nerf for Thief is also great, though fighting a sword thief will still be one of those experiences that make you want to pull your hair out one by one due to how frustrating it is - it immobs while blinking to you, slaps you for 4-5k damage, steps back, rinse repeat. At least hopefully condition one will chill out with it's overtuned application. Scourge nerfs are a good idea, but they don't target what's really the issue. Ability to use shade skills without shades is what rustles my jimmies personally, but other already pointed out more comprehensive points.

    Are there any plans on looking into what makes building Scrapper for it's intentional purpose not worthwhile (the recent rework makes it so only support is viable to play at all, when it's supposed to be what Spellbreaker for PvP currently is - it fails due to backwards design of barrier reliance while needing to do damage it doesn't have to generate it), and Chrono - which is positively still unusable for PvP modes for no real reason? Travelling back to 2012 isn't Chrono experience, it's just sad mainly. :(

    Regardless, most of these changes look good, and I'm looking forward to their implementation. They will be a small stepping stone towards improving the state of the game, but keyword here is "small" - these aren't worth waiting for 3 months. Please look into making balance tweaks far more often.

  • I have little to say about the other specs as its already said. As a thief main I am on the fence about the changes.

    On one hand... Our damage output is severely hurt in a meta where almost everyone but me can sustain for long periods of time through protection, aegis, and healing spam. On the other hand, the cool down deduction means I can at least keep their healing output reduced by 33% which kinda feels mandatory (and not fun). Sure, I could run zerks... But why am I being forced into being super glassy?

    But other wise... So little is changed for me.

    We still have so many problems hurting us that haven't been fixed yet. The preparations are great on paper but in execution, they fall short because they don't do what you expect due to bjgs and oversights.

    Fighting another player is extraordinarily difficult than fighting as any other class, and payout is low. The weapons we keep using keep getting nerfed, when the reason why we use them is we have no real options and they counter some of the on going meta trends.

    WvW towers still hurts us badly for revealing us.

    And our intiative and trickery is still in need of a rework.

  • Noodica.5428Noodica.5428 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Hello Arena Net Devs,
    Thank you for taking the time to gather community feedback and taking it into consideration before implementing changes - this seems like a great start and I hope to see it continue.

    Would your gameplay change as a result? How? Honestly, at glance my response is no. The reason WvW has become very stale is because damage dealing classes, most specifically scourge, are simply too over tuned. These changes won't make any difference to the squad compositions that organised guilds/servers run. WvW is in dire need of a meta shake up - HoT offered many different meta changes whereas PoF has been almost the exact same since release, just with the addition of scrapper after the changes. The problem is that fights end far to quickly, where as in previous versions of the game they lasted much longer and were more intense - it came down to who could counter play and play the most pristine where as now it is all based off of one shot out of stealth gimmicks. Nerfing scourge (harder than you've proposed) will change this immensely. Don't nerf support classes too hard or we will be in the exact same spot. Tuning down scourge will open opportunities for other classes to come (back) in to play again. The only support nerf I would deem necessary is the scrapper condition cleanse nerf (in addition to the rune nerf) as conditions are almost non existent anymore and have too little impact with resistance + scrapper cleanse. Long story short - push a new balance patch which benefits longer sustained, more skill based combat.

    Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game? As mentioned above, it is a good start - but I really don't think it will change much.

    Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why? I am looking forward to less barrier, but as previously mentioned - we really need a meta shakeup and this won't be enough.

    **What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes? **That it won't be enough to bring back all the players who have become bored of the same playstyle since PoF launch. Nerf scourge, try to avoid nerfing support and push the game mode in a direction that caters to skill rather than one shots out of stealth. Not only will the veterans of WvW love this, but any new players won't be discouraged from being instantly downed as a fight starts - it is more forgiving direction yet in my opinion it also takes a lot more skill.

    TLDR: NERF SCOURGE HARDER AND THE META WILL CHANGE!

  • What about addressing thief sword 2? It's pretty cancerous to fight.

    Alliances were announced on the 2nd of February 2018

  • @Novaura.1079 said:
    Ok. Can we please rework support wells now? Have them pulse around the user while they move. Add barrier based on healing / aegis and some stability. Support wells are a poor design in combat that requires active dodging and movement when the reward for staying them is so low. Treat them similar to Scrapper Gyros

    THIS! THIS! THIS! This is probably the best idea I read in a long time. And I am not even a Chrono in WvW. These wells are used rarely...except Gravitation Well most of them are never used in WvW. Some smaller tweaks and a functionality like Gyros and they could become more popular AND help the Chrono to become a decent support-class. At the moment, he is just a tool for veils, pulls and Illusion of Life (+ rarely Portal Action).

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.

    I'd suggest increasing the target cap only on the supportive Shroud skills/aspects (F2, F3, Desert Empowerment trait, barrier application on Harbinger shroud) while the offensive ones/aspects (F1, F4, F5, Path of Corruption trait) stay at 3 targets. All of them still get the radius increase.
    Alternatively just remove the target cap increase in WvW only and be done with Scourge.

    The rest of the changes look fine. But it will depend on how you handle Sand Savant whether they'll equate to much.

  • Zepoolpe.9217Zepoolpe.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Guardian

    • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.

    Tread lightly when changing stab.
    There clearly too much boon flying around in a WvW zerg and that needs to be addressed, but Stab is the last boon I'd touch if I were you. I'd say: fix the rest first then work on stab.

    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.

    Hmm... Ok.. I don't entirely like it (I'm maining necro so I admit i have some bias) but it's ok.

    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.

    I completely agree that the impact of barrier needs to be toned down in large scale fights but with this change your doing it on the expense of small scale.
    Scourge (like all necro variant) has low mobility and, with the loss of shroud as an extended HP pool, has usually a low sustain when on its own. Barrier helps counter that.
    Instead I would make it:

    • either so that the barrier granted to the caster stays the same and the barrier granted to the party members is reduced.
    • or so that the barrier granted is scaled down if it is granted to more party members (ex: caster only: 100%, caster + 1 other 95%, caster + 2 others 90%, etc..)
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.

    I would not touch DS damage that way, I would rather reduce the replication of that damage by the shade(s). That way, the AoE around the caster is still high, but it's range projection through shades is lowered.
    As for Shade Savant, the trait itself is fine. For large scale fights it's a requirement as it both make it easier to place your shade efficiently (the fight is dynamic so it's easier to manage 1 shade rather than 3 shades without interfering with using other skills) and so it makes also a bigger bomb (easier to manage means catching more enemies which means more damage dealt). This itself is perfectly fine IF you reduce the shade's damage replication I proposed above.
    For example:

    • DS does 840 dmg/ticks for 7 ticks so overall 5880 dmg.
    • You spoke about reducing DS damage by 20%, so let's apply that reduction to the shade dmg output only: 672 dmg/tick for 7 ticks so overall 4704 dmg.
    • The same reducing is applied to the condis generated by the shade.
      That way you balance the ranged damage while keeping the "melee" damage of the scourge F skills (and that melee damage is important when having to deal with melee classes focusing on you).
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    Like I said there is too much boon flying around so reducing the boon removal capacity of the scourge is not the way to go. In large scale fight, boon removal should be the scourge #1 job. Barriers and damage is second to that: less boons means the rest of your group is more effective at dealing damage (and eles and revs are more effective than scourge at dealing huge burst damage to overloads the other team's healers - i'm speaking on a 1 to 1 comparison ofc).
    Balance boons first then we can talk about nerfing boon removal capacities.
    And if the goam was to nerf the damage output of the condis created by the boon corruption (I mean more than the 20% you annouced - i assume that it impact condis too) then instead of having 3 boon corrupted, make it so that it's 2 boons corrupted + 1 boon ripped (ie: removed but not replaced by a condi).

    Last thing:

    Warrior

    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Endure Pain needs to be redesigned closer to Engi's Elixir S and Guardian's Renewed Focus.

  • talprofil.5986talprofil.5986 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    I just want to make a notion regarding the change to Holosmith's Holographic shockwave.
    The spell has a very obvious tell and the wave also has an outward travel speed which means that if the opponent has Swiftness and does stand ~150 range away they can just move out of the 300 range AoE with probably no issues. Gutting the range by 75% effective range is problematic given that this spell has a huge heat investment and sufficient tells to avoid it by either using defensive cooldowns, dodging or interrupting the user.
    With the current proposition I would no longer use it without having the opponent nailed down with immobilise or CCd in the first place while I would still only use the spell when I have stability myself as it is too easily interrupted.

    What I want to note about this especially is that reading through several threads the main complaints were about weird hitbox detection that caused people to still get hit by the shockwave when they dodged it. Personally I think it is more promising to look into the hit detection for a quality of life improvement as that is the major unfun element about it for the opponents of Holosmiths as I perceive it.
    If you are still keen on going with a range reduction you need to add tradeoffs to the skill, e.g. reducing the heat gain, reducing the cast time, improving damage as it arguably stops being a "cast and the enemy has to do something to avoid it" with a 300 range radius. I would however prefer a change to the hit detection in conjunction with dodges as that is what the problem is in my perception.

  • Jazz.4639Jazz.4639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Greetings again all,

    Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

    Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

    As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.
    Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

    • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
    • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
    • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
    • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

    Mesmer

    • Illusion of Life: Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
    • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
    • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
    • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

    Thanks once again for your feedback and for keeping things focused.

    Sincerely,
    ~Irenio

    wow i cant even say how great it is to see that feedback gets included into planned changes. the last times we got a preview and gave feedback it didnt change anything. that is a big big step in the right direction, no matter if i agree with everything or not and it makes me so happy to see that i almost could cry. thx a lot!

    also big thx for not killing illusion of life <3 its a way better change now, you could consider do make the cast a bit better visible by put an illusion of life symbol over the mesmers head when starting to cast it (like you have for guards signet of mercy) in case you think it needs more adjustment. but the skill should be fine now.

    im still worried about the line of sight change because mantras already respect line of sight, so im not sure what you rly wanna do here and i hope you dont give it a nature of a projectile so it bugs out on every little culm on the ground.

    for the face your target change on mantras i rly would need more informations: like do you add automatic char alignment to instant skills to make it not clunky and unfair? what happens to my mantra charge when i try to use it on someone behind me (not activating at all or goes on interrupt cd or is just completely wasted?) and what is about its aoe function, like does every target in aoe range will get hit no matter if it is in my back (as long as my main target is in front of me) or do all targets i wanna aoe hit need to be in front of me?

    i dont think that mantra of distraction should only hit in front, a lot of its defensive nature gets nerfed with me not being able to interrupt gap close or ranged skills (engis rifle immobilze shot for ex.) from targets i run away from. esp when you dont implement an automatic char alignment on instant skills to make that possible fast enough without me need to use about face button in addition. i can accept it more for mantra of pain because i get, that doing high instant dmg without any counterplay and without cds during running away (being defensive) is op and makes no sense. but mantra of pain should not do high instant dmg in the first place, so the change doesnt rly solve all problems this mantra causes.

    i still would prefer mantra of pain get some cds and dmg reduction or reworked to not make instant dmg (give blind instead for ex.) and you add a mantra charge symbol into mesmers buff bar again (no clue why it got removed in the first place) so enemies can see when i have a mantra charged and how many charge i have left. then you dont need to add stuff to instant skill that are not there for good reasons, because it would give instant skills an unfair diasdvantage and make them unintended unhandy esp without automatic char alignemnt added to the skills and depending on how the skill react when used on a target in the back...

    what happend with the chaos strom changes? deleting the rng was a good thing. if you think its a too big nerf than add another daze on the 3. pulse or something?

    still not a fan of the new ci trait, still too random. why not just replace immobilize with something else?

  • stacking all of warriors support onto warhorn seems like a bit much, maybe give the rest of Tactics some love too.

  • If the plan is to change devouring darkness from 3 to 2 and feast from 3 to 2 then why the hell would you not be tackling guardian's skill that converts 5 conditions to boons on 5 people s on a 12 second cool down?

  • DiogoSilva.7089DiogoSilva.7089 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Revenant's Coalescence of Ruin changes take away the one mechanic that makes it satisfying to use. The changes may be better for wvw (to tone down how OP it is) and maybe even for pvp and pve (if the skill is split to have the highest damage output in those two modes, where hammer is currently weak), but it takes away the fun out of it, you know?

    What if the mechanic had a reverted scaling? Higher damage in close range, lower damage in long range? (This would actually make it have better synergy with Jalis melee-oriented legend.) Or what if a secondary effect were to be added, and have that effect scale with distance instead?

    The current proposal, even if more balanced, is also more generic and bland.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    ...Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.
    ...
    As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.

    Still, may I interest you with a proposal I happened to have just written and posted on Warrior sub-forum yesterday, 'Redesigning Tactics Specialization: A Holistic Approach to Support Warrior'?

    -

    I'll just leave out items that I have given my feedback on in the previous post, or items that I have no problem of or particular opinion on.

    Engineer

    • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.

    In the previous thread, I was against the entire idea of bringing up the cool down, though 60 s does seem much more reasonable.

    • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.

    Personally, I am glad to see this, as the scale of 'collateral damage' Holosmith could cause do seem a bit to much. Although please note that, while the description says 'Range', it actually indicates 'Radius'. Therefore I'd say you might as well fix the tooltip and bring the 'Radius' to either 240 or 360 to bring it in line with other point blank area of effect skills.

    • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.

    Good to see condition damage done by Scrapper is going to convert into Barrier.

    Guardian

    • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.

    I am not exactly sure what is being addressed here. In practice, 5 stacks or Stability translates into ~1000 unit of movement guaranteed to be unhindered by hard CC. (One's experience might differ, of course.), while 3 would be just about enough for one to double Dodge through a choke point saturated with enemy AoE.

    Though the change itself is interesting, do monitor closely if the change in effect pushes people to bring more Guardians in an organized group, or to bring in something else instead, such as Frontline Herald, so that your original objective, i.e. to promote build and class diversity, would be accomplished. It would probably also help if you slightly improve skills of other classes that also grant Stability to a group of allies, say, Darkrazor's Daring, Inspiring Reinforcement, etc., or add Stability to skills of other classes that are under redesign, such as Warrior's Charge.

    • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

    In the previous thread I suggested adding Blinding to the skill, as the AoE is a Light field. On second thought, it would probably break the identity by doing so, as the skill is intended to keep enemies outside of a designated area.

    My assessment on the practicality of the utility in WvW group fight remains negative, though. I could hardly think of any reason to bring in a skill that, a) for a 75 s cooldown and occupying a utility slot, only provides an insignificant amount of Healing, and b) requires allies to stay within a relatively small area in order to receive its full effect.

    It does, however, have something unique and potentially useful, or even powerful, which is its ability to continuously Knock-back enemies, not just at the edge/ring of the area, but also from inside of it, stripping off 1 stacks of Stability for every second enemies staying in the area. That is some sizable CC pressure/area denial. It could be useful in small scale fight that, when an enemy or ally is downed, one may cast Sanctuary on the player to secure a stomp or revival. However, it is not the case when the scale of the fight scales up, when range AoE pressure is so high to the extend that it would be impractical to stay within a small, fixed location over time.

    To make the skill desirable universally across different scale of combat, I'd propose the following.

    Buff:

    1. Make it pulse Protection (to make the skill a more desirable pick)
    2. Increase the Skill Coefficient of Healing Power (to make the skill a more desirable pick)
    3. Increase the Radius to 240 (to address the aforementioned problem of being required to sit within a tight area while facing enemy AoE pressure)
    4. Reduce the cooldown to 60 s or even less. (to make it worth a Utility slot; the skill at the moment is close to proto-Elite)

    Nerf:

    1. Reduce the base duration from 6 s to 5 s (to balance against the buffs above and to bring it in line with other utility skills)
    2. Cancel ground-targeting and make the skill a Point Blank Area of Effect, which is fixed to the position of the Guardian the moment being cast, instead of following the Guardian around. (So that people use the skill as it should be -- a sanctuary, instead of being placed offensively at the chokepoint, etc, where no ally would dare to move through, not to mention to even stay within. This, combined with teleport provided by Meditation, could become a new play style.)

    Mesmer

    • Illusion of Life: Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.

    I would not say it is a good idea to reduce the invulnerable period specifically for this skill. People are familiar with the resurrection mechanics and knows to utilize it, only preemptively dodging and cast Stability near the end of the period. You'd seriously mess up the people's timing if the change is implemented, as in the visual mess of combat no one would have the luxury to check what source exactly resurrected them, particularly when the effect UI is already a mess.

    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.

    Less disrespect to line of sight is always better. PRAISE LINE OF SIGHT!

    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.

    Thank you so much for raising the overall Coefficient of Healing Power for these skills. Though I'd also suggest reducing the Life Force cost of Sand Cascade by 33% as well to retain a 1:1 Life Force to Barrier ratio. Also, for reference, after the change, it would take ~800 Healing Power to bring the Barrier up to its previous effectiveness, which is not a small number.

    Regarding Sand Flare, please notice that, inconsistency between the Skill Coefficient of Healing Power in effect (1.739) and in tooltip (1.5125) has been reported on the Wiki page, which I think should be verified before further adjustment is implemented.

    Revenant

    • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

    I'd still very much hate to see it changed. As I put it in the previous thread:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Personally I'd be sad to see this change implemented. The entire point of Revenant (or more specifically, Power Herald) in a group is its long range non-projectile damage pressure, with which nothing else comes close, and now you are killing it. Just do not touch it if you still want to see this class relevant.
    The red rectangle for better visual indicator would not help much in practice since A. the field does not pulse, B. there is only a one second time frame between the first impact and the third, C. the first and the second impacts in an actual combat scenario will be covered up by all other AoE flying all over, around and between, reducing it to mere visual noise, and D. it would look similar to Dragon Banner AoE, causing people to make wrong judgement.

    Plus, what you are doing at the moment is literally to add a special warning sign to something that has been threatening to this day (though unlike Scourge, without any unique mechanic that requires specific indication), while on the other hand making it much less threatening.

    Warrior

    • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
    • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

    Since you just decided to lower the Stability count on Guardian's Shout, this would be a good chance to bring Support Warrior into the competition by adding Stability instead of Fury when traited with 'Quick Breathing'. Just 3 stacks would do (reason for the estimation the same as stated in my comment on the change of Guardian's Shout skill).

    It'd also help set the theme. To quote myself in another thread:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I would so much like to see Stability be added to Charge, so that people actually use it preemptively before clashing into melee, instead of afterward trying to get out of the hot zones. Nowadays, the skill is used more like how Guardian's 'Retreat!' is meant to be (yet mostly is not). Such inconsistency between the actual application of the skill and the intended function suggested by the text always makes me chuckle.

  • Abimes.9726Abimes.9726 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    What i'd like to see for WvW balance changes :

    General:
    - Remove healing/toughness stats combos or reduce the healing over time players get from supports.
    - Remove condi/vitality/tougness stats combos
    - Reduce effectiveness of aoe skills when stacking them on top of each other.

    Better for small skilled roaming groups taking on unskilled larger groups by getting more effective focus fire.

    Mounts:
    - HP of mounts downed to 1K - 3k hp (stop knoking ppl down when dismounted)
    - Remove third dodge on mount make it go a bit futher instead.
    - Remove stomping with mounts

    Buffs:
    - Remove food and utility in wvw (this just unbalance the game mode even more)
    - Remove Guild objective auras outside of the keeps and in camps. (this just unbalance the game mode even more)

    Stealth :
    - Remove perma stealth.

    Necro:
    - Replace sand savant by a more supporty trait. Scourge issue is not the amount of corrupt it has but rather his impact on the battle fields. Pvp players manage to play with the smaler shades, it take more skill, hits fiewer persons and it is easier to play around for the enemy.
    - Removing damage on necro scepter is bad (corruption in line with pvp is fine), it push core necro in a even worse spot. Boon spaming (#firebrand) should be looked at instead.
    - Please remove harbringer shroud it's bad no one will ever use that !
    - Fix dark path tracking plz.
    - Other listed changes are fine.

    Firebrand:
    -Poops out to much boons in every competitive game mode

    Gardian:
    - Judge's intervention should be ground targeted forcing ppl to have los to burst but allowing for better kiting.

    Engineer:
    - Make utility giro works like before and put the reveal there like before.
    - Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro. Just no ! The poison field is nice for downed state control and the utility giro was way better before revert that change.

    • Reduce the amount of sustain scrapper has and instead give it ways to stick to his target making him a bruiser class. Like it was originaly intended with last changes instead of locking it into a skilless bunker style.
    • Holo changes are nice changes.
    • Core engi still need's help.

    Elementalist:
    - Alow tempest to have shared stability

    Warrior:
    - Fine

    Thief:
    - Fine if stealth is looked at.
    - Steal need los

    Ranger:
    - Lowering longbow damage seem's fair in open space places like wvw.

    Revenant:
    - Changes are fine
    - Need Los for teleports

    Mesmer:
    - Mirage god mode dodge on clones is a design problem.

    Kind regards,
    Me

  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.

    Logging into the forums for the first time in 5+ years just to say thank you for this change. I really loved roaming on condi scrapper and I hope this will make it viable again.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are you doing that to your Revenants? I personally enjoy playing my Power Herald ,but its getting worse and worse. Its my main class, but its gotten so bad that nobody would take me into fracs, raids or at least stay in the pvp match if they play with a herald.... even if im doing more damage than most of the others.
    And now you are going to screw Herald in WvW over too? ITS THE LAST RETREAT POINT FOR US HERALDS! THE HAMMER IS ALL WE HAVE

  • LINKAZZATORE.8135LINKAZZATORE.8135 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Why are you doing that to your Revenants? I personally enjoy playing my Power Herald ,but its getting worse and worse. Its my main class, but its gotten so bad that nobody would take me into fracs, raids or at least stay in the pvp match if they play with a herald.... even if im doing more damage than most of the others.
    And now you are going to screw Herald in WvW over too? ITS THE LAST RETREAT POINT FOR US HERALDS! THE HAMMER IS ALL WE HAVE

    except perma output of boons, i'm sure you really need that 15k aoe crit without telegraphed aoe on a 4s cd on the hammer. there is really nothing herald has...

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Greetings again all,

    • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.

    Yes, with the rune change keep it at 5 pulses.
    Also consider adding 1s CD on Purity of Purpose, that would lower the boon stacking a bit.

    Guardian
    * Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.

    Not against it but then add group stab to another support spec/class among those: tempest, scrapper (more sources), war, ranger, rev.
    EDIT: I see people wanting to go back to 5 target, that would be a mistake.

    • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.

    Better this way.

    Mantra of lore: remove regen from the first 2 pages and reduce boon conversion from 5 to 3 on the last page. Regen is everywhere and FB shouldn't have access to so much boon conversion, it's already a mandatory spec and scrapper in sufficient even with all the proposed nerfs

    Necromancer
    * Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.

    Better

    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.

    Better

    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.

    I think lowering the power coeff instead of base damage is better, it would limit power scourge without killing hybrid scourge (cele, grieving, etc)

    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.

    Yes it is indeed complicated but after many discussions, the simplest way to change it is to keep the trait's current ability and add something to transform Manifest Sand Shade into a support shade.

    Winds of disenchantment Reduce the radius from 360 to 300.
    I insist but If you want real change in WvW, this small nerf is important to allow melee spec to not be locked into the wind as updates on warhorn and tactic will increase the number of spellbreakers in squad.

    Nice to hear from you again, i appreciate the effort in communication. Overall nice changes, it's a good step in the right direction!

  • All I going to say is this, - I have quit playing Mesmer due to, way to many line of sight errors due to invisible barriers in WvW and elsewhere, but WvW predominantly.

    Either fix the invisible barriers issue - or take line of sight away.

    When my Asura can reach out and touch an enemy, but there are line of sight errors, when I attack, this is not acceptable under any circumstances

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Since stab support is being brought down just a wee bit on Guardian, here are some ideas on how to diversify it and offer it from other classes:

    REVENANT
    -Versed in Stone: Rite of the Great Dwarf reduces incoming condition damage as well. When you use an elite skill, grant stability to nearby allies. (3x stab, 360 radius, 5 targets, 30-45s cooldown). [No longer offers passive RotGD or toughness>>power conversion.]
    (Putting this in Retribution forces DPS Revenants away from the big damage modifiers of Invocation or Devastation while also giving an alternative to Invocation for healer Revenants.)

    ELEMENTALIST
    -Earth's Embrace: Now in the master major tier. In addition to its previous effect, grant Lesser Armor of Earth (3x stab + prot) to nearby allies when using Armor of Earth.
    -Rock Solid: Now in the master minor tier.
    -Earthen Blast: Now in the adept major tier.
    (This allows for the player to take prot on auras and a wee bit of stab on attuning/overloading to Earth, as well as giving the option of a solid AoE stab application if they choose to take Armor of Earth as a utility skill.)

    DRUID
    -Glyph of Equality: Additionally, this skill applies stability (3x) to affected allies. [CA Form only]
    (This would obviously require a massive rework to the spec to ever justify bringing. For one, I would like for Verdant Etching to increase the target cap to 10 instead of applying the Seed of Life.)

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Mesmer
    * Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

    A mesmer who can't rupt from any-direction when fighting a thief will never use MoD.

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    Does this mean it will only work when others apply cleanses to you?
    OR it will only affect you with your own cleanses?
    Because if its the former then the runes will be useless for solo play.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @romano.8170 said:
    Sand shroud changes are completely random and pointless. Barrier nerf is what's needed.

    I agree with this. It's something I have been preaching for a while now. But, ya know, well thought out feedback is not listened to much, unless you're a content creator on youtube or twitch.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • I would like to bring up these points again as I believe the rest are good enough

    Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    Both changes are unnecessary and bad. The strike damage is already low and a single target corruption on 900 range does not need this nerf. You affect small scale balance here which you shouldnt.

    Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    Same as above except I do agree with the corruption reduced to 2 when this trait in equipped.

    with that out of the way I would like to thank you for trying to make support warrior viable but you will need to look at the very weak support traitline Tactics and how weak banners and shouts are for support in wvw. While warhorn is going to be powerful it is not enough to make the playstyle viable. Warrior needs buffs to its other shouts and/or shout traits and I suggest a bit of both. also warrior lacks boons to share such as regen protection and raw healing. Make every condition removed or boon granted heal the affected target/s.

    second point is the stability shave from guardian. the amount of CC has not changed unlike stability. we understand the shave in stability stacks but you should redistribute the lost 10 stacks of stability to another skill and/or classes that can help open up their support build options further.

    lastly Holosmith nerfs are healthy but I believe you should either compensate Holographic Shockwave for the huge nerf because of how telegraphed it is or keep the range between 350 to 400 as 300 is too small and could instead use a harder hitting skill at that point instead

    thank you for trying to help the game mode

    peace o/

  • THANK YOU
    finally Holo nerfs !!!
    Thank you 1000000 times :)

    now you only need a look at the new condi / evade / stealth spam DEAD EYE.

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