Fix Thief design — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Fix Thief design

Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 30, 2019 in PVP

Thieves' initiative mechanic is unique in this game. It allows the player to free himself from cooldown. The main purpose of cooldown is to prevent the user from spamming the same ability.
Thieves initiative mechanic allows them to bypass this without any trade-off. So in order to fix it, here are some suggestions of trade-off to prevent thieves' spamming fiesta.

  • Each time a thief uses the same skill in a row, that skill initiative cost is raised. +1 per-use. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".
  • Or, each time a thief uses the same skill in** a row**, the effectiveness (damage, Condi damage/duration, boons stolen...), the range and the radius of the skill is diminished by [I can t put any percentage here, since I don t know how much of impact it would have] %, but the initiative cost remains the same. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".

This counter-part is reset if the thief gets out of fight or swaps weapons. If the thief swaps to the same weapon then it's not reset.
This change have an internal cooldown of 3 seconds (yeah this is a magic number, I don t know how much of impact it would have, but it definitively needs a cooldown).
All skilled accessed when a thief is in stealth like backstab, etc...., can reset the initiative cost.

This sounds fair to me. What do you think? (And before thieves'main complain about this, It is not a skill/trait nerf, if you re against spamming fiesta, you should agree with this proposal).

Comments

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    Spamming the same skill over and over again is hardly ever the most effective thing to do, and given how your initative is finitie, spamming anything will empty your reserves in seconds so... you're trying to fix some problem that doesnt exists. So.... cease. Let the baddies spam.

  • @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Thieves' initiative mechanic is unique in this game. It allows the player to free himself from cold down. The main purpose of cooldown is to prevent the user from spamming the same ability.
    Thieves initiative mechanic allows them to bypass this without any trade-off. So in order to fix it, here are some suggestions of trade-off to prevent thieves' spamming fiesta.

    • Each time a thief uses the same skill in a row, that skill initiative cost is raised. +1 per-use. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".
    • Or, each time a thief uses the same skill in** a row**, the effectiveness (damage, Condi damage/duration, boons stolen...), the range and the radius of the skill is diminished by [I can t put any percentage here, since I don t know how much of impact it would have] %, but the initiative cost remains the same. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".

    This counter-part is resetted if the thief get out of fight or swaps weapons. If the thief swaps to the same weapon then it s not resetted.

    This sounds fair to me. What do you think? (And before thieves'main complain about this, It is not a skill/trait nerf, if you re against spamming fiesta, you should agree with this proposal).

    Just lol 😅 omg this community ...

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    they should add a cast time for each skill used +1s after each cast of the same skill

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Thieves' initiative mechanic is unique in this game. It allows the player to free himself from cold down. The main purpose of cooldown is to prevent the user from spamming the same ability.
    Thieves initiative mechanic allows them to bypass this without any trade-off. So in order to fix it, here are some suggestions of trade-off to prevent thieves' spamming fiesta.

    • Each time a thief uses the same skill in a row, that skill initiative cost is raised. +1 per-use. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".
    • Or, each time a thief uses the same skill in** a row**, the effectiveness (damage, Condi damage/duration, boons stolen...), the range and the radius of the skill is diminished by [I can t put any percentage here, since I don t know how much of impact it would have] %, but the initiative cost remains the same. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".

    This counter-part is resetted if the thief get out of fight or swaps weapons. If the thief swaps to the same weapon then it s not resetted.

    This sounds fair to me. What do you think? (And before thieves'main complain about this, It is not a skill/trait nerf, if you re against spamming fiesta, you should agree with this proposal).

    Lmao without trade off?
    U guys literally have zero clue and just spout kitten cuz ur bias and find the class anoying. L2p and deal with it.
    For a trade off how about most times the main skill like say infiltrator arrow can be spammed a whole three times if ini is full and that literally uses up the thief whole resource pool for ALL his attacks. Black powder and heart seeker combo u can do twice, and all these examples are if the thief takes trickery for the extra 3 ini as they could only use infiltrator arrow twice in a row before not being able to cast any skill other than autos until its refilled and can't just swap weapons for another 4 skills of use instantly like other classes can. I'd say that those to things I stated are more than enough of a trade of.
    Thief actually needs the ini cost reduced on a lot of its skills so it's not pigeonholed into the trickery line.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think you're silly.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    This would make thief useless since they'd have low dmg and unable to do combos to kill anyone let alone escape.

    What someone said about doing combos on thief because of low damage is true, plus this would make them unable to get initiative back from auto attacks because it would cost 1 and take away the ability to dodge using sword dagger teleport.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    @Weasel.9684 said:
    So I’ll swat this down since it’s just sooooo easy.
    1.Thief Initiative cost keeps them from spamming it’s not free and is shared between weapon sets

    2.thief skills are very lackluster in dmg so it takes multiple uses to equal one use of another classes skill often unless you go zerker

    3.sure you wanna reduce spammyness buff thief’s damage to the same level as everyone elses

    The initiative system is why thief is always kinda meh thieves the only melee class that has to auto for damage because the no cd makes most skills pretty weak.

    1. It doesn t keeps anything, it as bazsis said, it just make spamming finite. My idea is to make this limite if use happen sooner. As long as you don t use the same skill more than twice in a row, you would barely notice the difference (only +1 initiative cost).
      2.You re free to use a skill mutilple a time. As I said before, 3 times is the limit where this change would become perceptible. +3 initiatice more in total.
    2. I don t know about this one. Is it true or you re just making excuses? Give numbers. This on its own just represents the state of mind of this forum. Everyone yells at power creep and spam fiesta. When you try to fix it on their classes, they suddenly don t yell anymore.

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Spamming the same skill over and over again is hardly ever the most effective thing to do, and given how your initative is finitie, spamming anything will empty your reserves in seconds so... you're trying to fix some problem that doesnt exists. So.... cease. Let the baddies spam.

    It's not because it isn't meta that it doesn t exist. Remember when d/p #2#2#2#2#2 was a thing, when condi d/d #3#3#3#3 was a thing, when p/p #3#3#3#3 was a thing, when s/d #3#3#3 was a thing (and still is), when staff #5#5#5 was a thing, when rifle #3#3#3 was busted, and now when s/d #2#2#2 is broken.
    The problem is there is no such mechanic which prevent/push thief from/for spamming. That 's what I m asking for. Every broken thief's build is based on spamming the same ability.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Thieves' initiative mechanic is unique in this game. It allows the player to free himself from cold down. The main purpose of cooldown is to prevent the user from spamming the same ability.
    Thieves initiative mechanic allows them to bypass this without any trade-off. So in order to fix it, here are some suggestions of trade-off to prevent thieves' spamming fiesta.

    • Each time a thief uses the same skill in a row, that skill initiative cost is raised. +1 per-use. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".
    • Or, each time a thief uses the same skill in** a row**, the effectiveness (damage, Condi damage/duration, boons stolen...), the range and the radius of the skill is diminished by [I can t put any percentage here, since I don t know how much of impact it would have] %, but the initiative cost remains the same. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".

    This counter-part is resetted if the thief get out of fight or swaps weapons. If the thief swaps to the same weapon then it s not resetted.

    This sounds fair to me. What do you think? (And before thieves'main complain about this, It is not a skill/trait nerf, if you re against spamming fiesta, you should agree with this proposal).

    Lmao without trade off?
    U guys literally have zero clue and just spout kitten cuz ur bias and find the class anoying. L2p and deal with it(1)
    For a trade off how about most times the main skill like say infiltrator arrow can be spammed a whole three times if ini is full and that literally uses up the thief whole resource pool for ALL his attacks (2). Black powder and heart seeker combo u can do twice (3), and all these examples are if the thief takes trickery for the extra 3 ini as they could only use infiltrator arrow twice in a row before not being able to cast any skill other than autos until its refilled and can't just swap weapons for another 4 skills of use instantly like other classes can. I'd say that those to things I stated are more than enough of a trade of (4).
    Thief actually needs the ini cost reduced on a lot of its skills so it's not pigeonholed into the trickery line.

    1.I don t find the class anoying, what I find anoying is the it can spamm skill. i'm wondering wich one of us is really biased....
    2.You mention the word yourself: "spamm", and that's the problem. You basically admit but you re still looking for excuses. If you decided to use shortbow #5, that's up to you. But you should know that the more you use, the more it ll become diffucult to use it ONLY IF YOU RE ACTUALLY SPAMMING IT. So for example, if before you re using sb#5 3 times in a row, it cost 6 x 3 = 18. With this change, it will cost 6+7+8 = 21. Now if you use sb#5-sb#3-sb#5, it will "only" cost 6+4+6 = 16. (it'is the same with the change I m asking since you re not spamming). This is an example of disengage maneuvers changes. It's more risky, less spammy but require some more brain cells.
    3. Black powder and heart seeker as you mentioned yourself is a COMBO, understand it requires at least 2 different skills, therefore it won't be affected by this.
    4.What you re talking here is out of range of this change. What you re talking here is all about resource management. This change will just punish some more people who spamm;The other who doesn t, won t be affected by this.

    @Axl.8924 said:
    This would make thief useless since they'd have low dmg (1)and unable to do combos to kill anyone let alone escape.(2)

    What someone said about doing combos on thief because of low damage is true, plus this would make them unable to get initiative back from auto attacks because it would cost 1 and take away the ability to dodge using sword dagger teleport.(2)

    1. As I said earlier where the f... this comes from? Truth or bias?
    2. Same as I said, combos won t be affected by this change unless #3#3#3#3 is a sort of combo for you....
    3. By reading this, I realized there was a flaw in my change. So I edited the OP for this.

  • @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    ....
    Just lol 😅 omg this community ...

    Yeah exactly, I feel you dude, especially with this kind of reply. I gave it a +1 for helpfull.

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Weasel.9684 said:
    So I’ll swat this down since it’s just sooooo easy.
    1.Thief Initiative cost keeps them from spamming it’s not free and is shared between weapon sets

    2.thief skills are very lackluster in dmg so it takes multiple uses to equal one use of another classes skill often unless you go zerker

    3.sure you wanna reduce spammyness buff thief’s damage to the same level as everyone elses

    The initiative system is why thief is always kinda meh thieves the only melee class that has to auto for damage because the no cd makes most skills pretty weak.

    1. It doesn t keeps anything, it as bazsis said, it just make spamming finite. My idea is to make this limite if use happen sooner. As long as you don t use the same skill more than twice in a row, you would barely notice the difference (only +1 initiative cost).
      2.You re free to use a skill mutilple a time. As I said before, 3 times is the limit where this change would become perceptible. +3 initiatice more in total.
    2. I don t know about this one. Is it true or you re just making excuses? Give numbers

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Spamming the same skill over and over again is hardly ever the most effective thing to do, and given how your initative is finitie, spamming anything will empty your reserves in seconds so... you're trying to fix some problem that doesnt exists. So.... cease. Let the baddies spam.

    It's not because it isn't meta that it doesn t exist. Remember when d/p #2#2#2#2#2 was a thing, when condi d/d #3#3#3#3 was a thing, when p/p #3#3#3#3 was a thing, when s/d #3#3#3 was a thing (and still is), when staff #5#5#5 was a thing, when rifle #3#3#3 was busted, and now when s/d #2#2#2 is broken.
    The problem is there is no such mechanic which prevent/push thief from/for spamming. That 's what I m asking for. Every broken thief's build is based on spamming the same ability.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    Thieves' initiative mechanic is unique in this game. It allows the player to free himself from cold down. The main purpose of cooldown is to prevent the user from spamming the same ability.
    Thieves initiative mechanic allows them to bypass this without any trade-off. So in order to fix it, here are some suggestions of trade-off to prevent thieves' spamming fiesta.

    • Each time a thief uses the same skill in a row, that skill initiative cost is raised. +1 per-use. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".
    • Or, each time a thief uses the same skill in** a row**, the effectiveness (damage, Condi damage/duration, boons stolen...), the range and the radius of the skill is diminished by [I can t put any percentage here, since I don t know how much of impact it would have] %, but the initiative cost remains the same. As auto-attack, F1/F2 and utility skills cost 0 initiative, they can t be used to break that "row".

    This counter-part is resetted if the thief get out of fight or swaps weapons. If the thief swaps to the same weapon then it s not resetted.

    This sounds fair to me. What do you think? (And before thieves'main complain about this, It is not a skill/trait nerf, if you re against spamming fiesta, you should agree with this proposal).

    Lmao without trade off?
    U guys literally have zero clue and just spout kitten cuz ur bias and find the class anoying. L2p and deal with it(1)
    For a trade off how about most times the main skill like say infiltrator arrow can be spammed a whole three times if ini is full and that literally uses up the thief whole resource pool for ALL his attacks (2). Black powder and heart seeker combo u can do twice (3), and all these examples are if the thief takes trickery for the extra 3 ini as they could only use infiltrator arrow twice in a row before not being able to cast any skill other than autos until its refilled and can't just swap weapons for another 4 skills of use instantly like other classes can. I'd say that those to things I stated are more than enough of a trade of (4).
    Thief actually needs the ini cost reduced on a lot of its skills so it's not pigeonholed into the trickery line.

    1.I don t find the class anoying, what I find anoying is the it can spamm skill. i'm wondering wich one of us is really biased....
    2.You mention the word yourself: "spamm", and that's the problem. You basically admit but you re still looking for excuses. If you decided to use shortbow #5, that's up to you. But you should know that the more you use, the more it ll become diffucult to use it ONLY IF YOU RE ACTUALLY SPAMMING IT. So for example, if before you re using sb#5 3 times in a row, it cost 6 x 3 = 18. With this change, it will cost 6+7+8 = 21. Now if you use sb#5-sb#3-sb#5, it will "only" cost 6+4+6 = 16. (it'is the same with the change I m asking since you re not spamming). This is an example of disengage maneuvers changes. It's more risky, less spammy but require some more brain cells.
    3. Black powder and heart seeker and you mentioned yourself is a COMBO, understand it requires at least 2 different skills, therefore it won't be affected by this.
    4.What you re talking here is out of range of this change. What you re talking here is all about resource management. This change will just punish some more people who spamm;The other who doesn t, won t be affected by this.

    @Axl.8924 said:
    This would make thief useless since they'd have low dmg (1)and unable to do combos to kill anyone let alone escape.(2)

    What someone said about doing combos on thief because of low damage is true, plus this would make them unable to get initiative back from auto attacks because it would cost 1 and take away the ability to dodge using sword dagger teleport.(2)

    1. As I said earlier where the f... this comes from? Truth or bias?
    2. Same as I said, combos won't be affected by this change unless #3#3#3#3 is a sort of combo for you....
    3. By reading this, I realized there was a flaw in my change. So I edited the OP for this.

    It sounds to me like you are a Little biased and a bit of a thief hater Mr revenant or whatever you are.

    It already has a cost of initiative to use abilities. Thief already has performance issues since we got classes that have a similar amount of mobility combined with equal or better damage and equal and or better sustain such as holosmith.

    Say for instance I'm playing D/P which is less viable now than S/D be.So you would add essentially extra cost to 2 because you will jump back and forth to get stealth stacks with 2 to get enough stacks of stealth to last a bit to get behind and if you add this initiative cost or cd you make it impossible to stack stealth 1 sec per attack would be 2 and 3 and 4 get could get used 1-2 times. This whole argument is null and void and kittens thief.

    Also, other things, for instance, have said spamming headshot is bad because its a waste of initiative and you do nothing.

    I also don't trust you guys to fix it as i bet you aren't the main thief players in SPVP and will break it to the point of making it kitten.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Nah, the only fix required is having interrupts put weapons skills on 5s CD like every other profession.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    ^^^this and let chill affect initiative renewal.

  • initiative makes thief good at bursting by having the option to spend its resource. Its terrible in the sustainfight, which is why thiefs leave/resets fights to regain initiative.
    As for the damage, take S/D: the third hit of the autoattack has the same power damage as the LarcenousStrike (sword#3 flipover). Now from what Ive understood, thiefs wpnskills do less damage because they are repeatable, which is why most damage comes from AA chain.
    As for the "in a row" mechanics; sword#2 and #3 are both flipover skills. so you'd add +1 to each activation?
    "spamming" usually comes from an ability in itself being so good that nothing else matters. condi drd sword#2 spam is an example. S/P #3 is also an example.
    I don't like the idea of forcing the player to use a suboptimal ability, just to not get punished.

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    We've all had that dream where the perfect balance patch will just come down, where our builds and playstyles puts you at the top without us having to do anything, other than:

    (1) objectifying and victimizing ourselves,
    (2) judge reality according to our anecdotal, incomplete, pedantic but somehow furiously righteous and perfect perspective, and/or
    (3) discrediting all opinions that don't agree with us by claiming bias without actually examining our own bias.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    How is it a tradeoff? Simple. Each individual skill is a lot weaker than any individual skill on other classes. Additionally, you cant simply use all of your available skills in a row if the situation calls for it, as you run out of initiative by the second or third skill. Weapon-swapping also loses a lot of power, since if you swap at 0 initiative, you retain 0 initiative. Whereas a Warrior could swap from his Greatsword with all the skills on cooldown, to Dagger/Shield, where all cooldowns are up.

    Now, the reason your idea is, to put it bluntly, extremely stupid, is because being able to use the same skill is both the point of thieves initiative system (trading individual cooldowns for each ability for a shared global cooldown in the form of initiative recharge), but also the only way thief remains functional. All of thieves weaponsets feature mostly situational (if not outright bad) skills. The reason thieves often use the same skill over and over is because there is no reason to use the others. Lets take an example, S/D. S/D only has 2 commonly used skills, Flanking Strike, and Infiltrators Strike. The reason being because the other 2, Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger are extremely situational and practically useless respectively. If youre fighting an enemy in melee range, you have absolutely no reason to use either of the 2, and your idea of forcing them to do so would merely make the weaponset useless. And the same is true for pretty much all of thieves weapons.

    So yeah, terrible idea, and your suggestions for how to implement it are even worse.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    but you cant repeat it over and over, well you can at first if you dont prep your self with self combo stealth or something else but thats crazy for any thief to "spam". once ini goes to 0 then they got to wait x seconds per ini usage that skill needs, for example shortbow #5 6 seconds. thats sooo repeatable, or head shot! thats a common complaint, thats 4 seconds of a thief doing nothing, not that headshot spam is a thing now since most thief dont use Pi and even if they did it tickles now.

    I assume you;re complaining about things like sword #2 or may be death blossom.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

    Funny because 1 day ago you whined about Memser casting Daze on you , and you couldnt do anything because all weapons skill + utilities goes on cds
    You even went so far as to reduce their burst to do 25% of your total hp (15000 HP /25% = 3800 damage) , in order to combat imbalances
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/93181/please-close

    But when a Thief does the same , with1x Headshot + 3x no-cast-time autos attacks , leading to 5k crit in 1,2 sec (30% of your hp ) you play a different tune .
    Ini pool is replinish each sec , whatever if you cast or dont cast
    So while the victim is interupted for some 1,0 - 5.0 sec you can auto attack him to death , whine regenerating Ini pool

    I heard you left Archage and now you are playing Blade and Soul .
    What happened to the sandbox element ? Can i have your gold now ?:P

    2 month

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

    But when a Thief does the same , with1x Headshot + 3x no-cast-time autos attacks , leading to 5k crit in 1,2 sec (30% of your hp )

    what the hell ?

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

    But when a Thief does the same , with1x Headshot + 3x no-cast-time autos attacks , leading to 5k crit in 1,2 sec (30% of your hp )

    what the hell ?

    What ?
    Dont you know , that daze works on auto attacks , forcing a global cd on all other spells ?
    or the1200-1200-2200 crit auto attack senqence on no-toughness guys ?
    did they put a 0.5 cast time like Revenants ?

    (Now that the Rev Sword Precision Strike was nerfed , can you remove the auto attack cast time like in HoT Launch , preety plz!
    We have limited amount of Utilities + Energy cost + cd s)
    Aslo remove the 12 sec cd on ''Unrelenting Assault'' .Its worthless on teamfights (because of randomness) , let us use only its energy cost !
    Tthe energy pool must be the one limiting our attacks ....not puting 10-15 sec cd in each spell...

    Edit: Atleast for ''Precision Strike'' , if it hits an other Assasin Class (Mesmer + Thief+Revenant- regadles of evade frames) or other characters using Soldier Amulets=> you get a portion of your cd back !

    2 month

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    I tried to understand where you're coming from from reading most of your replies:
    Thief isn't annoying but their ABILITY to spam the same skill is. So... the mere option for them to do that is inherently bad according to you. Balance isn't nearly your primary concern, you wan't thieves chaining different skills instead of laying into one button, and balance comes maybe after that. All the thief builds that somehow somewhere use the same skill several times in a row are just acceptable losses, because they sure as hell won't be competetive enough if this get's implemented.

    Well good thing we'd only have to sacrifice like... all thief metabuilds on the altar of this change, because your suggestion does nothing to stop spamming! You can still spam all you wan't, it just won't achive anything. Which is ironically how it is with all spammy thief builds already, except condi S/D (but thats getting ritually murdered on dec. 3 so lets act like its already dead).
    What would stop theives from spamming the same button is putting a cooldown on their attack skills. (Which is a huge no-no. I'm sure you can see why that's a no-no. If you can't, I'm so sorry.) Spamming is already suboptimal except a very few circumstances when it's not, and recognising/forcing those little windows is what differentiates good and bad thieves.

    So again, please consider ceasing, terrible idea.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2019

    Hi OP.

    I'm not entirely convinced about your argument here, and the supporting evidence just seems to be 'because I said so'.

    Can you please demonstrate how thief skills are too strong when 'spammed' and how an opponent's defenses aren't enough to deal with it, but things would be more equal with this change?

    Also, i'm not convinced there isn't a trade off, either. Of course, I'm sure you're an honest fellow and a paragon of virtue, but you seem to ask more, evidence wise, of people who disagree than you expect of yourself . Please analyze the initiative system compared to other classes' weapon swap + cooldowns on a per skill basis. I'm interested to see how you simulate a thief's skill uses in a burst scenario vs other classes and skill uses in a sustained fight.

    Looking forward to those concrete facts. Thanks.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

    But when a Thief does the same , with1x Headshot + 3x no-cast-time autos attacks , leading to 5k crit in 1,2 sec (30% of your hp )

    what the hell ?

    What ?
    Dont you know , that daze works on auto attacks , forcing a global cd on all other spells ?
    or the1200-1200-2200 crit auto attack senqence on no-toughness guys ?
    did they put a 0.5 cast time like Revenants ?

    (Now that the Rev Sword Precision Strike was nerfed , can you remove the auto attack cast time like in HoT Launch , preety plz!
    We have limited amount of Utilities + Energy cost + cd s)
    Aslo remove the 12 sec cd on ''Unrelenting Assault'' .Its worthless on teamfights (because of randomness) , let us use only its energy cost !
    Tthe energy pool must be the one limiting our attacks ....not puting 10-15 sec cd in each spell...

    I knew you can head shot aa. And speaking of AA, doesn't rev do double theif dagger aa?

    Head shot is a 1/4 second daze, and its nothing like mirage where they can use other skills in conjunction with it. how can it put all skills on a global cool down? It will just reset the AA chain, sword aa on thief is also slower than rev.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No trade off? Initiative pool is unique and shared across both weapons.

    That’s...clearly a trade off.

    How exacly is that a trade off? Repeating the same thing over an over is not as an explanation. Explain your self please, if possible with concretes facts.

    The fact that u don't understand that thieves ini pool is a global resource and spamming any skill will result in not being able to use not only the other skills on that weapon but on ur secondary weapons is a big trade off means any discussion forward is useless. Ur biased and ignorant as far as the thief class. Try spamming headshot on someone and see how it works out for u.
    God these biased nonsense threads get tiring.

    But when a Thief does the same , with1x Headshot + 3x no-cast-time autos attacks , leading to 5k crit in 1,2 sec (30% of your hp )

    what the hell ?

    What ?
    Dont you know , that daze works on auto attacks , forcing a global cd on all other spells ?
    or the1200-1200-2200 crit auto attack senqence on no-toughness guys ?
    did they put a 0.5 cast time like Revenants ?

    (Now that the Rev Sword Precision Strike was nerfed , can you remove the auto attack cast time like in HoT Launch , preety plz!
    We have limited amount of Utilities + Energy cost + cd s)
    Aslo remove the 12 sec cd on ''Unrelenting Assault'' .Its worthless on teamfights (because of randomness) , let us use only its energy cost !
    Tthe energy pool must be the one limiting our attacks ....not puting 10-15 sec cd in each spell...

    I knew you can head shot aa. And speaking of AA, doesn't rev do double theif dagger aa?

    Head shot is a 1/4 second daze, and its nothing like mirage where they can use other skills in conjunction with it. how can it put all skills on a global cool down? It will just reset the AA chain, sword aa on thief is also slower than rev.

    When you get dazzed , all spells (that have cd in the main main weapons -not thief) goes into a 0.5-1.0 refresh rate (exept Stun breaks)
    Thief auto attacks Dagger , you benefit more because you attack faster = you have more chances to crit .
    For Sword AA you dont need to use Head shot , but use the 2 constatly , in order the player to get immoblized a lot and waste his defensive spells
    Let Weakness + Poison (Superior Sigil of Doom) do the rest to soft him up

    2 month