Pistol whip..? What's happening..? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Pistol whip..? What's happening..?

killfil.3472killfil.3472 Member ✭✭✭

It is all I have been seeing recently.
It's probably the safest skill in the game, for even if you miss you still dodge everything afterwards, plus if you want to relocate you just sheath your sword…
And you can spam it without much issue. :expressionless:

<1

Comments

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've been seeing them very often too and I think you can attribute it to the other post on Sind sharing his build =)
    From a Necro perspective they are not unbeatable though.
    With dagger 4 blind, dodging, and fear wall, they can still be taken down.
    I've seen these pistol whip thieves beating holosmiths in WvW though so...its a rather good build for them.

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  • It has a very obvious pre-cast, they are immobile while using it, and they can only teleport to you while casting it twice, assuming they're not also using Infiltrator's Signet.

    If you have quick or instant CC's you can interrupt them before the evasion begins. It's easier with Stability or ranged CC's. Also remember to stow your weapon frequently if they know how to use Headshot properly. This will help to avoid Pulmonary Impact procs.

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  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    It has a very obvious pre-cast, they are immobile while using it, and they can only teleport to you while casting it twice, assuming they're not also using Infiltrator's Signet.

    The good ones are popping quickness before starting or launching it then stealing. There is not much a player can do if they start it from a distance. Thankfully most players are running copycat builds and don't actually know how to work the build by splicing in headshots.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thing is, pw alone cant be spammed but, with things like roll for ini, upper hand and Kleptomaniac your options to use pw becomes far more often. But what else does theif have left to play with? D/p is kinda gutted, s/d has become brain dead with unblockable FS, swindles and instant reflexes. Staff got a good kicking too (dont talk about condi crud) and sniper de.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This build always existed, I personally found it too boring to play when I was trying to come up with something on Thief. People are not even using Leap dodges either, it's that cheesy.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So many people playing this build in ranked lol.

    Sadly, until the population gets used to fighting this build I’m sure we will see a lot of double PW thieves.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    So many people playing this build in ranked lol.

    Sadly, until the population gets used to fighting this build I’m sure we will see a lot of double PW thieves.

    For a period of time, thief once more has a build that can 1v1 and 1v2 pepegas (compared to s/d or d/p where, despite the difference in skill, it will take you a lengthy period of time to kill them) reliably. Elementalist has just as much evade frames and superior sustain in comparison (assuming people don't brainlessly cleanse/heal into your frames), yet I see few if any complaint threads.

    It punishes telegraphed gameplay and caster-camping, but does by no means achieve 'problematic' levels of damage.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSin.5682 said:
    I blame Sindrener.

    It just works

    Pog

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

  • that build is absolute trash, if you are having problems with it then it is prob your own fault. ps almost no one even runs pistol whip right cause that would be too much effort on their part

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MindWipe.3028 said:
    that build is absolute trash, if you are having problems with it then it is prob your own fault. ps almost no one even runs pistol whip right cause that would be too much effort on their part

    yes build is trash kitten

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been seeing this build since forever ago, but used with DE. It hurts.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    So many people playing this build in ranked lol.

    Sadly, until the population gets used to fighting this build I’m sure we will see a lot of double PW thieves.

    In truth its immediate counters are very limited the only way to counter it is to simply avoid and evade it out and wait for the tail end of the animation which gives the user the power role to sort of speak. Its the next safe thing behind the condi builds people got use to running before that got nerfed hard.

    The only thing that actively counters it is retaliation and shocking aura (or any other aura that applies its effects through evade frames) So thats probably why the community is a bit upset about it. Unless you are a guardian or a tempest you dont have active counters to Pistolwhip. You have to passively counter it by waiting around it and with the damage that goes out in this game thats not always something you can afford to do.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most of the damage comes from PI. Stow your weapons.

    Most of the stun/interrupt potential relies on you being immobile. Use a movement or teleport skill to move out of range.

    Evades are annoying. Don’t unload your burst into their evade. Force them to evade defensively by range pressuring them.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    it uses 6 initiative, and initiative is gained 1 per second. that's almost exactly the same rate as you gain dodges with vigor
    throw in all the other ways your class has to avoid damage, and you have everything you need to play against it

    thief also has no access to stability outside of stealing it from you, so you can also just interrupt it before the evade

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2019

    This is an old build. Nothing has been added that suddenly makes it OP . It performs about as well as it always has and any build can appear to look better then it is when higher ranked players use it.

    The build has always been effective.I disagree that it trash. PW spam is not something generally done to make it more effective as is the case with most that just want to spam the same skills. PW Spam roots you in place. As others mentioned 2 steps back and the thief whips at empty air. No utility or trait or dodge or evade needed to avoid a PW. Every profession can step backwards.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    it uses 6 initiative, and initiative is gained 1 per second. that's almost exactly the same rate as you gain dodges with vigor
    throw in all the other ways your class has to avoid damage, and you have everything you need to play against it

    thief also has no access to stability outside of stealing it from you, so you can also just interrupt it before the evade

    No its 5 ini

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    it uses 6 initiative, and initiative is gained 1 per second. that's almost exactly the same rate as you gain dodges with vigor
    throw in all the other ways your class has to avoid damage, and you have everything you need to play against it

    thief also has no access to stability outside of stealing it from you, so you can also just interrupt it before the evade

    No its 5 ini

    oh dang. when did it get buffed? it used to be 6

  • @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    Condi thief still good with ...some variation :)

    In my build i use short bow / dagger+dagger to have "Death Blossom"

    You have the same things as Pistol whip, 80% of time evads + heal + cleans.

    The only difference with the original condi thief's build is not only you have a ton of poison but also a ton of bleeding too ;)

    Video of my 1st try : imgur.com/Rxkp7QN

    Troll since 1988.

  • Pistol whip is a mostly fair move (aside from when steal is used right before the whip). Long startup usually means that you can land a CC of your own, dodge the whip, or if they miss the whip entirely (lol)... just walk away.

    It does become more problematic attack if the thief uses it right after sword 2, which is a spammable teleport that immobilizes the target. Fortunately, doing this as a 1-2 combo burns a lot of initiative, and you can usually Stun break and dodge the most damaging portion of the move.

    Of course, you can’t punish it once the whipping is actually done, and that’s why it feels unfair. But considering the long startup it has, outside of the use of a steal, it’s predictable and has clear counterplay.

  • Fortunately, doing this as a 1-2 combo burns a lot of initiative, and you can usually Stun break and dodge the most damaging portion of the move.

    You can bypass this by fainting the PW after the port. Granted, vs average players this usually isn't needed (or even encouraged) as their reflexes and situational awareness/reading isn't up there.

    Of course, you can’t punish it once the whipping is actually done, and that’s why it feels unfair.

    The ending portion of it is still an excellent instant to go for a CC or Steal.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Can someone confirm/deny whether PW has vuln frames at the end? I'm not the best at testing, and it looks like it does but I could be wrong.

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    It does, most thief evades have vuln frames before and after the ability. It's also the same for things like bandits defense.

  • @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can someone confirm/deny whether PW has vuln frames at the end? I'm not the best at testing, and it looks like it does but I could be wrong.

    Yes, it has. Just like Dagger Storm and Flanking Strike.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nerf flanking dive, not seen any evade vulns on that

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean when the game state translates to everyone is immune to damage while dealing damage and spamming CC's, there's no reason for thief gameplay to be any different.

    You can't realistically play anything but something like PW spam in the current state of the game.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    I mean when the game state translates to everyone is immune to damage while dealing damage and spamming CC's, there's no reason for thief gameplay to be any different.

    You can't realistically play anything but something like PW spam in the current state of the game.

    So much this^

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    Luckily my build has a good amount of teleports/ways of moving even if stunned (Blink, Illusionary Ambush, Jaunt)but there were 2 of them that was constantly in and out and they were so mobile I had a hard time nailing them with anything decent. They were like yoyo's lol.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    Luckily my build has a good amount of teleports/ways of moving even if stunned (Blink, Illusionary Ambush, Jaunt)but there were 2 of them that was constantly in and out and they were so mobile I had a hard time nailing them with anything decent. They were like yoyo's lol.

    As natural and fluid a spec Daredevil is, I never know what my feet are landing on at that second "yo". I've been deleted so fast at times on an engage or return even my combat log didn't know what happened. That's usually vs a squad or sustained group who can afford to read me and the area a bit and start prepping during a fight set me up. They'll gas out on ports an pistol whip at some point though no matter how well paced they are and what traits they have because ultimately they need to tag you or move on.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    Luckily my build has a good amount of teleports/ways of moving even if stunned (Blink, Illusionary Ambush, Jaunt)but there were 2 of them that was constantly in and out and they were so mobile I had a hard time nailing them with anything decent. They were like yoyo's lol.

    As natural and fluid a spec Daredevil is, I never know what my feet are landing on at that second "yo". I've been deleted so fast at times on an engage or return even my combat log didn't know what happened. That's usually vs a squad or sustained group who can afford to read me and the area a bit and start prepping during a fight set me up. They'll gas out on ports an pistol whip at some point though no matter how well paced they are and what traits they have because ultimately they need to tag you or move on.

    I used t main DrD (P/P, D/P) and I had so much fun. Didnt care for the camera stealth nerf. Never used sword tho. I remember that when I yoyo'd it was the same thing...sustained against or run out of gas.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    The acro+trickery meta build is so bad in terms of burst in wvw, that it's laughable. Some of these bandwagoners jumped at me recently. I was just walking 1 km to the next tower while the thief was constantly trying to attack.

    If you play this build with DA+CS+DrD or DE traitlines then you can overwhelm some people (but you lack utility). The metabuild with all its defense is just good for stationary fights like which you can find on capture points (pvp or camps in wvw) to wear your target down eventually or (like any teef build) for +1 of course.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    As someone said earlier, this build has always existed. As a mesmer running an off-meta build, sword thieves have ALWAYS given me a lot of trouble.

    Sword thieves are hit or miss (I also run an off meta mesmer (mirage) build). Had one down low, he then peaced out to get ooc and came in again over and over.

    Was online in both ABL's and maybe saw 4-5 diff sword spam Daredevils.

    It's not a bad build for roaming, simply because it doesn't need stealth in any way so it's unaffected by marked. It's also closer in playstyle to D/P than almost any other build, so I can totally see why people that enjoyed the old meta before PoF would want to play it. I mostly use it in situations where deadeye would be a disadvantage, like in enemy towers or versus people that spam painter traps.

    Vs mesmers I generally have better luck on S/D or on condi deadeye honestly. A good mesmer will time the daze shatter or mantra for the S/P windup and shut you down totally if they're watching for it.

    The acro+trickery meta build is so bad in terms of burst in wvw, that it's laughable. Some of these bandwagoners jumped at me recently. I was just walking 1 km to the next tower while the thief was constantly trying to attack.

    If you play this build with DA+CS+DrD or DE traitlines then you can overwhelm some people (but you lack utility). The metabuild with all its defense is just good for stationary fights like which you can find on capture points (pvp or camps in wvw) to wear your target down eventually or (like any teef build) for +1 of course.

    You're not wrong, but frankly there's a lot of builds out there that require specialist builds to kill, so it's not surprising that you'd be running something that S/P dash can't really do much against. Remember that it's a build promoted by a PvP player for PvP; defense is generally a lot lower in there compared to WvW because of the amulet system forcing gear tradeoffs. The build has its uses in WvW though, I main deadeye so it's a useful build for me to deal with other thieves and for situations where stealthing is limited, like near sentries and towers. Also, the whole wear down your opponents playstyle is basically what sword thief does best, so putting the build down by trying to compare it's burst to a dagger or staff daredevil build seems a bit disingenuous really.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Zynk.9015Zynk.9015 Member ✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build. I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Throw some pepegas in the chat boiz, gw2 is dead.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch dp been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will roll it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    While I agree with you that Thieves should have a healthy access to stealth mechanics and some evades to avoid damage, it should never be to a point where, playing a build that is built for assassinations, they can avoid every and anything. There should be a hard punishment for trying to overuse such mechanics. This is something that is lacking, and not just for Thief, but for many professions if not all.
    Couple this with high bursts that can hit 8-10k in a single skill from stealth and it gets to be a little much, as you can just re-access stealth immediately and go right back to trying to get that high burst again with really no downtime, or very little downtime. There should be a significant downtime to re-do a burst if you miss it initially. That's how assassin builds should work. It's the "tradeoff", or offset, to having access to high amounts of burst damage.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    While I agree with you that Thieves should have a healthy access to stealth mechanics and some evades to avoid damage, it should never be to a point where, playing a build that is built for assassinations, they can avoid every and anything. There should be a hard punishment for trying to overuse such mechanics. This is something that is lacking, and not just for Thief, but for many professions if not all.
    Couple this with high bursts that can hit 8-10k in a single skill from stealth and it gets to be a little much, as you can just re-access stealth immediately and go right back to trying to get that high burst again with really no downtime, or very little downtime. There should be a significant downtime to re-do a burst if you miss it initially. That's how assassin builds should work. It's the "tradeoff", or offset, to having access to high amounts of burst damage.

    I can't argue with that, I agree assassin type playstyle should be high risk vs high reward but in today's game where sustain is at with barriers, blocks, invulnerability, traps that alone will kill a thief on dh, aegis accessibility and boom spam would make any assassin type playstyle low reward or medium at best vs high risk.
    I agree thief should be a high risk/reward spec but without the tools it has now in today's version of the game I'd be either ur successful assassinating other glassspecs and out right avoiding all others cuz 3/4 of the current specs can be built to eat or avoid a assassination attempt and the thief would be free food which isnt right either.
    Maybe once dps and sustain is toned down then thief could maybe be changed to have higher risks.
    As it is I see thieves on my team and on opposing team being downed as often as others but the difference is the kills it gets are done in a way that feels more cheesy to its opponent than most other specs. Although most class can delete people in the cheesiest of ways now but thief's at top with mirage and perhaps pew pew rangers lol. It's not like thieves arnt dying often it's more I feel people dislike dying to one dare I say hate dying to one vs others lol

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

    Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

    As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

    Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

    That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

    Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

    As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

    Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

    That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

    I cant argue for pw cuz I hate the skill and playstyle and can understand everyone's frustrations with it. Far as I'm concerned s3 shoulda been just a rooted flurry with evade and HS called pw with a 300 or less ranged pistol throw or short dashed actual pistol whip causing the 2 sec daze so ud have to combo s3 and p4 for the pw effect adding also more ini cost for the effect now needing to be combo's over 2 skills or 3 of u s2 first. Be less boring and feel less spammy. As far as reaper last night watched a guy in arena use chill and reaper shroud to literally walk around erena wrecking everything lol cant speak to the others skill level as I was just spectating but the reaper was demolishing everyone with chill and spin to win lol was funny to watch, I smartly stayed outa the way.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

    Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

    As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

    Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

    That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

    I cant argue for pw cuz I hate the skill and playstyle and can understand everyone's frustrations with it. Far as I'm concerned s3 shoulda been just a rooted flurry with evade and HS called pw with a 300 or less ranged pistol throw or short dashed actual pistol whip causing the 2 sec daze so ud have to combo s3 and p4 for the pw effect adding also more ini cost for the effect now needing to be combo's over 2 skills or 3 of u s2 first. Be less boring and feel less spammy. As far as reaper last night watched a guy in arena use chill and reaper shroud to literally walk around erena wrecking everything lol cant speak to the others skill level as I was just spectating but the reaper was demolishing everyone with chill and spin to win lol was funny to watch, I smartly stayed outa the way.

    Reapers chill is usually not a threat to anything thats not another necro or ele because base chill durations are so short. But even the short durations are still effective on ele due to messing with attune swapping and effective on necro due to its lack of mobility options. Everything else can practically for the most part ignore chill entirely with just movement skills. Thief practically can be immune to chill with the right setup in combination with acrobatics. A real highly invested chill reaper build is fun to play and at times can be rather effective but really suffers with life force generation imo. Right now i find that its just better to invest in speed runes and speed yourself up than it is to invest in say Grenth or Ice runes in attempts to slow others down when they rapidly remove the conditions or ignore them with movement skills. I hope in the future i can consistantly count on builds like that but i think we need conditions to get culled down so that cleanses are taken less or are also culled down so that a build like that can really be effective.

    Turning pistolwhip's stun into a daze might lower its effectiveness enough actually that could be an option anet could take with it. IF the stun was instead a daze then you could realistically "walk out of its range" before the thief could use it a second or third time.

    But yeah my thoughts in a nutshell thief and its mechanics are just designed in a way where in 2020 its seen as cheap and spammy. Anet might want to consider reworking thief from the base up to resolve the issue instead of just nerfing what ever is effective at any given time if it revolves around mostly using the same one or two skills in rapid succession.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Zynk.9015 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

    It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

    Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

    I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

    Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

    I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

    Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"
    Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

    My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

    Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

    Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

    ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

    Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.
    If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

    Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

    Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

    Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.
    A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.
    Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

    Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

    Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

    As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

    Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

    That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

    I cant argue for pw cuz I hate the skill and playstyle and can understand everyone's frustrations with it. Far as I'm concerned s3 shoulda been just a rooted flurry with evade and HS called pw with a 300 or less ranged pistol throw or short dashed actual pistol whip causing the 2 sec daze so ud have to combo s3 and p4 for the pw effect adding also more ini cost for the effect now needing to be combo's over 2 skills or 3 of u s2 first. Be less boring and feel less spammy. As far as reaper last night watched a guy in arena use chill and reaper shroud to literally walk around erena wrecking everything lol cant speak to the others skill level as I was just spectating but the reaper was demolishing everyone with chill and spin to win lol was funny to watch, I smartly stayed outa the way.

    Reapers chill is usually not a threat to anything thats not another necro or ele because base chill durations are so short. But even the short durations are still effective on ele due to messing with attune swapping and effective on necro due to its lack of mobility options. Everything else can practically for the most part ignore chill entirely with just movement skills. Thief practically can be immune to chill with the right setup in combination with acrobatics. A real highly invested chill reaper build is fun to play and at times can be rather effective but really suffers with life force generation imo. Right now i find that its just better to invest in speed runes and speed yourself up than it is to invest in say Grenth or Ice runes in attempts to slow others down when they rapidly remove the conditions or ignore them with movement skills. I hope in the future i can consistantly count on builds like that but i think we need conditions to get culled down so that cleanses are taken less or are also culled down so that a build like that can really be effective.

    Turning pistolwhip's stun into a daze might lower its effectiveness enough actually that could be an option anet could take with it. IF the stun was instead a daze then you could realistically "walk out of its range" before the thief could use it a second or third time.

    But yeah my thoughts in a nutshell thief and its mechanics are just designed in a way where in 2020 its seen as cheap and spammy. Anet might want to consider reworking thief from the base up to resolve the issue instead of just nerfing what ever is effective at any given time if it revolves around mostly using the same one or two skills in rapid succession.

    I meant the chill to the bone soin to win combo, and the guy in the arena was definitely a threat cuz he went from player to player wrecking them with no downtime in between, necro and its elites have large downsides but some very large strength especially reaper in good hands, it's a noob stomper for a reason lol. But yeah regarding thief anet definitely should rework thief by deciding out skill value better than it is now for sure to eliminate the only using couple skills in each kit in most scenarios, not all but too many for it to not feel spammy.

  • sneakytails.5629sneakytails.5629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2020

    Actually Warriors Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3, and Thief Pistol Whip are a good comparison for a simple reason. They do too much for a single button press. I think its time that some skills become more focused in what they do instead of some of them just doing too much.

    ZDragon.3046 brought up Warrior Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3 which has a 3/4 second evade, 450 range movement and has 4 impacts for reasonable cleave damage. This is a good example of a skill doing too much. I am sorry but Warriors should not be downing players when they are "kiting" with crits from this skill. This skill should be about kiting, and should be about using it at the right time, and not spamming it through attackers for more cleave damage. The damage needs to be dropped from this skill entirely. A 3/4 second evade, and 450 range movement are more than powerful enough on their own. This then gives the Warrior's opponent a chance for more counter-play while the Warrior is kiting.

    You can then make the same case for Thief's Pistol Whip. A 3/4 stun should never have an evade attached to it, and that's what makes it so crappy to play against. I feel the same problem exists for Warriors Bulls Charge, a 900 range movement, a 1 1/4 second evade attached to a very long 3 second CC, it can also crit for alot like Pistol Whip can. Thief PW can be spammed as well due to the resource system which add yet another element of frustration.

    Skills across the board need to be looked at, and they need to have a defined purpose with a real chance for counter play. This stacking effect needs to stop, and some of the excess needs to be trimmed from these skills.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sneakytails.5629 said:
    Actually Warriors Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3, and Thief Pistol Whip are a good comparison for a simple reason. They do too much for a single button press. I think its time that some skills become more focused in what they do instead of some of them just doing too much.

    ZDragon.3046 brought up Warrior Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3 which has a 3/4 second evade, 450 range movement and has 4 impacts for reasonable cleave damage. This is a good example of a skill doing too much. I am sorry but Warriors should not be downing players when they are "kiting" with crits from this skill. This skill should be about kiting, and should be about using it at the right time, and not spamming it through attackers for more cleave damage. The damage needs to be dropped from this skill entirely. A 3/4 second evade, and 450 range movement are more than powerful enough on their own. This then gives the Warrior's opponent a chance for more counter-play while the Warrior is kiting.

    You can then make the same case for Thief's Pistol Whip. A 3/4 stun should never have an evade attached to it, and that's what makes it so crappy to play against. I feel the same problem exists for Warriors Bulls Charge, a 900 range movement, a 1 1/4 second evade attached to a very long 3 second CC, it can also crit for alot like Pistol Whip can. Thief PW can be spammed as well due to the resource system which add yet another element of frustration.

    Skills across the board need to be looked at, and they need to have a defined purpose with a real chance for counter play. This stacking effect needs to stop, and some of the excess needs to be trimmed from these skills.

    It has an evade, but you're not going anywhere until it's done or you cancel it and take the resource loss, and it's not getting spammed, staggered if someone knows what they're doing but that's not cheap. I don't know if people are still getting wrecked in spvp with it but it's hardly a factor in wvw anymore if it ever was, you're just asking for everything to be dropped at your feet while you're telegraphed.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]