PLEASE NOTE: Necro issues are from Signet of Undeath and Fear of Death, not ALL LF values!

One of my worst fears for necromancer is that they nerf life force generation across the board, which will just serve to REALLY shave the class. What needs to be done is address the problem by the horns: attack Signet of Undeath and Fear of Death, the two sole perpetrators of permashroud on necromancer. Coming from a necro main, given this patch, those two need to be halved. Signet of Undeath needs to be 2% and 3% generation respectively when not traited and when traited, and Fear of Death needs to be shaved from 15% (a HUGE amount right now!) to 5-8%. Fear comes from SO many sources for a necromancer that uses their cards right that 15% is WAY too big of a value. Fear of Death was an issue even before this patch. Those two are the issues with necromancer: please do not nerf ALL of the life force generation on necromancer, or you'll hurt the elite specs of necromancer too much indirectly.

Don't worry, that's not how ANet work. Knowing them, if they think that the necromancer have to much LF sustain, they will increase the shroud CD.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Don't worry, that's not how ANet work. Knowing them, if they think that the necromancer have to much LF sustain, they will increase the shroud CD.Actually that one is not a bad solution either. With the nerf to damage all across the board it should not be a real issue to have a 20s shroud CD, you have to time it properly instead spam it.

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Don't worry, that's not how ANet work. Knowing them, if they think that the necromancer have to much LF sustain, they will increase the shroud CD.Actually that one is not a bad solution either. With the nerf to damage all across the board it should not be a real issue to have a 20s shroud CD, you have to time it properly instead spam it.

It would be soooo fun to sit on 100% LF for such a long time.

Um, here we go again so glad I quit I knew this was coming,

As for nerfs, that would be an awful idea to nerf the cd more. It would be catastrophic for necro if they had a 30-60 Sec cd on reaper shroud or any shroud.

Warrs aren't gated behind their sustain offensive with such a long cd, neither are mesmers.

If so pls give us some invulns and evades like other classes.

If they absolutely have to do the life force generation on the new trait or something, but leave our "Only" defense alone.

No other class is so easily chased down cced to death. Everyone else has evaded invulns blocks etc, there is a reason why dmg got nerfed across the board as well as cc, and there is a reason a lot of necros don't feel like playing in SPVP. It was basically a 1 sided hill where you ran out got farmed repeatedly by classes that had combined 1hko burst mobility and more CC.

Make the usual adjustments and roll with it. If you ask for A to be nerfed expect B and possibly C to cop it.

There is a huge "it depends factor".

Of course the LF generation of undeath signet is problematic on a core bunker build. Eternal life is also too strong on support scourge in pve. Nerf undeath signet for core and it will be useless for reaper. Nerf eternal life for scourge and it will be useless for reaper.

Skill/trait splitting between the necro specs would be the way to go here - IF there would be a need for it. I don't think the core necro with undeath signet is broken. It's a useless punching bag and people are overexaggerating. No one will win a tournament with it and up to now no one could show me a plat division video where it performed fine.

Yeah, I saw it comming that core could almost negate LF degeneration in shroud with the signet of undead buff. If anything core should have the higher degenation of reaper.

@"KrHome.1920" said:There is a huge "it depends factor".

Of course the LF generation of undeath signet is problematic on a core bunker build. Eternal life is also too strong on support scourge in pve. Nerf undeath signet for core and it will be useless for reaper. Nerf eternal life for scourge and it will be useless for reaper.

Skill/trait splitting between the necro specs would be the way to go here - IF there would be a need for it. I don't think the core necro with undeath signet is broken. It's a useless punching bag and people are overexaggerating. No one will win a tournament with it and up to now no one could show me a plat division video where it performed fine.

Do note, I'm talking about splitting the nerfs for PvP and PvE. Eternal life in PvP isn't anything to write home about. Eternal Life in PvE may be strong though. That's anet's intent I think. Signet of Undeath isn't as high powered of a tank utility in PvE, but it sure as hell is in PvP. Eternal Life is split between modes, and I definitely think they could do the same with other hard trait LF generators.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Yeah, I saw it comming that core could almost negate LF degeneration in shroud with the signet of undead buff. If anything core should have the higher degenation of reaper.

PHAT no brodie.

The immortal signet Necro is akin to S/D Weaver without the evade spam or CC's and even has lower damage. It is literally a health sponge that doesn't do enough damage unless you fully commit to it in which case it will win by sheer attrition. I agree that a number of sources are granting too much Life Force and I'd be perfectly happy with seeing those things changed, but on the whole, this build is more annoying than it is OP.

This is the kind of thing that, at least in WvW, I would literally walk away from and it wouldn't be able to stop me or even pressure me if I did so. In PvP it's a little more problematic due to how long it can hold a node, but I'm sure there are things with enough CC's or condition output to pressure it off.

About what you're trying to do ( OP ) I appreciate it though. I really hate when people say 'X class is busted pls nerf' without providing specifics. They don't even know or care to learn what/why the build is strong and instead just want to see a nerf of some sort. In this case I can definitely see people making complaints because it's pretty insane how much health and LF regen this build has. People probably don't care enough to consider that that's basically all it has - health, a lot of it. So hopefully if it does get changed it doesn't get changed in such a way that it ruins things for other Necro specs.

Not really a reason to concern yourselves over theoretical what if's. Nerfing LF regen isn't really inline with the direction Anet has taken the class anyways; camping shroud.

I'd prefer soul battery and gluttony to receive a shave if LF is deemed such a problem. I dont like when utilities and "choice" traits are nerfed, just because it makes the choice pointless: nerfed too much, noone takes. Also, it may make Soul Reaping in general less of an automatic pick, which is always a good thing for classes.This should bring core in line, and if it hurts reaper too much, they can just buff reapers shroud on it's own.But overall, if a necro is just sitting there with tonnes of LF and generation to the point you cant 2v1 it... don't, go kill its friends instead, then worry about killing it if needed.

these are big culprits but unfortunately the problem is across several traits. maybe just nerfing these two will solve the problem, who knows. would start here at least.

I was recently inspired by this thread here in the ranger forum.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98492/balance-patch-bugfix

A ranger main was honest enough to point out a bug that made his class OP in WvW.Apparently their healing is a lot stronger than was intended and is making rangers S++ tier duelers.

I have been struggling with my conscience because while I know the signet was too OP, I’ve been unashamedly using a variant of the Necro King’s Signet build to add lots of new names to my graveyard ?

But the ranger taught me to be honest. And I would like to say that OP is right that the signet is too strong on Core. I would suggest nerfing according to his values, but split it across specs as suggested by KRhome so that Signet on Reaper is untouched.

I disagree that traited fear needs to be changed as it now has a cast time, is harder to land and can be dodged.

We also need to be compensated though with a baseline Reduced Shroud cool down of 5 seconds for both core and reaper.

Reaper is no longer the spike damage force it was in shroud. Lots of traits that function upon entering/exit shroud have also been badly nerfed/changed.

So no issues there if we’re given a 5 seconds shroud cool down. This is to promote more interactive plays.

@Obtena.7952 said:Not really a reason to concern yourselves over theoretical what if's. Nerfing LF regen isn't really inline with the direction Anet has taken the class anyways; camping shroud.

I would like to humbly suggest that Anet change their direction. Camping shroud is ultra boring. I hope they consider shroud flashing which is more interactive.

Joke aside, the best way to adress the sustain from LF is to simply nerf the LF pool. Damages were nerfed by 33%, just nerf the LF pool by 33%. It's what, 60% of the health pool, just put it at 40% of the health pool and the necromancer will have roughly the same survivability from shroud than before.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:these are big culprits but unfortunately the problem is across several traits. maybe just nerfing these two will solve the problem, who knows. would start here at least.

I think another issue is none of the healing was nerfed. Vampirism/locust, life steal, unholy sanctuary, blighter's boon, life from death, parisitic contagion, spiteful renewal, etc. All unchanged.

Edit: like even if we had regular shroud uptime we are still operating at higher levels of attrition than a class that did have its healing reduced. This is good for class identity but makes balancing LF more complicated.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:these are big culprits but unfortunately the problem is across several traits. maybe just nerfing these two will solve the problem, who knows. would start here at least.

finally someone who gets it.

Arenanet will probably nerf something completely unexpected, introduce shiny new bugs, and be forced later to buff or nerf something else that broke because of the change.

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Arenanet will probably nerf something completely unexpected, introduce shiny new bugs, and be forced later to buff or nerf something else that broke because of the change.

"Enfeebling Blood Weakness duration reduced to 1 second."

Actually, I can totally see ANet addressing "Necros are too tanky" by hitting our Weakness application.

@Anchoku.8142 said:Arenanet will probably nerf something completely unexpected, introduce shiny new bugs, and be forced later to buff or nerf something else that broke because of the change.

I can see them doing quite a few funny things:

• Weakness uptime like drarnor said.
• Put an ICD on vampiric compensated by a laughable increase (that one is the most unexpected and it would totally break the trait).
• Nerfing the LF pool in competitive gamemodes (personnally this one have my vote).
• Increasing the shroud CD in competitive modes (It would be awful for the dynamic of the profession but it wouldn't be totally unexpected).
• Tempering with the toughness on death carapace stacks (because it's new so they might think that it's what break things).
• Nerfing dagger/focus/WH heal received from life siphon (I'm sure that I'd get a good laugh if they did it)
• Nerf LF sources individually (No, clearly to much work for them... Again I'd have a good laugh if they were to nerf lich form LF gain)
• Change the boon corruption table, having weakness applied on vigor instead of power and bleed for power, as well as a switch between stability and resistance.
• ... Etc.

I was using fear from death and doom not seeing those huge numbers, then again the build i had wasn't exactly condi, and i'm no master, it was also apprent condi and boon corrupt was innefective and childsplay compared to what a renegade or herald could do in condi. condi herald has insane condi pressure and incredible aoes compared to core.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Arenanet will probably nerf something completely unexpected, introduce shiny new bugs, and be forced later to buff or nerf something else that broke because of the change.

• Weakness uptime like drarnor said.
• Put an ICD on
  vampiric
  compensated by a laughable increase (that one is the most unexpected and it would totally break the trait).
• Nerfing the LF pool in competitive gamemodes (personnally this one have my vote).
• Increasing the shroud CD in competitive modes (It would be awful for the dynamic of the profession but it wouldn't be totally unexpected).
• Tempering with the toughness on
  death carapace
  stacks (because it's new so they might think that it's what break things).
• Nerfing dagger/focus/WH heal received from life siphon (I'm sure that I'd get a good laugh if they did it)
• Nerf LF sources individually (No, clearly to much work for them... Again I'd have a good laugh if they were to nerf
  lich form
  LF gain)v
• Change the boon corruption table, having weakness applied on vigor instead of power and bleed for power, as well as a switch between stability and resistance.
• ... Etc.

Stop giving them ideas ): !

Messing with Corruptions or Life Force generation are two of my bigger fears. They've already hit a lot of Corruption sources but to a degree, I think that's good because you can't just mash Corrupts without drawbacks anymore, you have to think about it. But I also think Boon application is still too high so right now anyway, Corrupts don't feel as impactful.

Messing with Life Force generation is even more scary because it would effect all specs. Unless it has to do with Signet Of Undeath or Eternal Life, they better stay away from all other sources.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:these are big culprits but unfortunately the problem is across several traits. maybe just nerfing these two will solve the problem, who knows. would start here at least.

I think lesser signet of vampirism and signet of vampirism are going on the chopping block in the next hotfix. It's been stated they were hitting passives last time.

Lesser signet of vampirism has Active Life Siphon Heal: 470 +(0.24 heal power) , trait cooldown is 20 secondsSignet of vampirism has Passive Heal: 325 + (0.1 heal power) with 1 second passive cooldown ; when traited it is 490+

Vampiric isn't huge offender. It's not much different than revenant Battle Scars or Warrior Might Makes Right.

Funny to see, that people still don't realize, how easy it is to kill a core necro xD

I think @KrHome.1920 will agree with me here. Most people just didn't realize yet, how to play against necro.

• just a small advice: do you know what cc skills are? Just read the patch notes from the big patch and you'll know what to do...

@Nimon.7840 said:Funny to see, that people still don't realize, how easy it is to kill a core necro xD

I think @"KrHome.1920" will agree with me here. Most people just didn't realize yet, how to play against necro.

• just a small advice: do you know what cc skills are? Just read the patch notes from the big patch and you'll know what to do...

Players are going to learn to chain a control effect and big damage skill, or two CEs if the first results in a dodge or stun beak. Arenanet seems intent on separating damage from everything else. Button mashing and rotations will be punished.

Regarding future patches, traits that passively counter incoming attacks may already be reviewed to see how strong they are with regards to CEs or stun breaks and could be adjusted more in another month along with heal skill splits.

Finally, to add to Dadnir's dire list of changes, here is one more. "For consistency, Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud decay have both been normalized at 7% per second while Manifest Sand Shade costs 3500 Life Force."