Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Some reasons why this is stupid:Sword/Sword is only there for DPS reasons. As Healer, its not your Job to deal DPS. Better camp on Staff or play Staff+Hammer. Hammer has a projectile block Skill and a CC skill. And Staff autoattacks are heals, which is good if you use the permabubble build since you will only be autoattacking then and not be using weapon or utility skills except bubble.Rune of the Monk while it seems good at first is actually only good on druid. Better use Rune of the Pack. It grants Fury, Might and Swiftness to the group and has Boonduration, which is important for AlacDuration. If you have the chrono for quickness, i mentioned before in your group and hes also playing with rune of the pack thats enough to grant to whole group perma fury, perma swiftness and 10 stacks of might. And you have to do nothing for it, only be infight.Devastation Traitline. This is again only used for DPS reasons and NOT to help the group stay alive which should be a healers mainjob.If you run invocation instead, you can grant allies more boons on legend swap (Regeneration, always good - or Retaliation, good for DHs) and you gain more Energy if you swap Legends while low at energy which means you have 75 Energy instead of 50 after Legend swapping. That means you can have Kalla Elite active for a longer time which increases dps and heals the people while they dps the boss. Or you can drop more Kalla Utility Skills. They grant Protection so thats a nice method of stacking up protection duration.You can also take Corruption Traitline for the permabubble build to block projectiles.The Group Support Healer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAYJltQJsNiipRTsMqiNShMDagnvk57H-zRJYqRFfZUdKkeFo2s0+mF-ePermabubble Healer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAYJltQJsNiipRTsMqiNShMDagj1z37H-zRJYqRFfZUdKkeFo2s0+mF-e (Also great at Boneskinner)

And while these are only small changes compared to the meta build, if all people in the raid use such small changes, alltogether they have a large impact on the raid.

Umm, nice dissertation here, but the point was that Snowcrows did recommend a heal renegade and does not just push a power renegade for damage. The fact that you don't like their build is another story. But you know you ought to let SC play the way you want and not be so toxic, even if they do not live up to your high standards.

You also contradict yourself by saying the role of a healer is to keep everyone alive, but then say monk runes are bad in favor of pack runes that give common offensive boons (?) while dropping Assassin's Presence, something only you can provide. Like pack runes it is passive, unlike pack runes, it is on the whole fight. At least be consistent lol.

It is funny that your only defense is to set up more and more text walls, but all it takes is a single brick to have it all collapsing. It's nice if you enjoy seeing yourself write, but think of everyone else for a second. Talk less and listen more.

Btw, we bring supports to content, not "healers". Tacking on that designation does not absolve you of the other duties-- doing so is what we call leeching.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

Jesus Christ just skimming through this thread. Does anyone use MetaBattle or anything? It’s literally the website that people are begging to have with builds that are “not really meta or do 10% less dps than what SC has, but are far easier to manage for lower level or newer players”.

SC is for pushing the limits in this game. MetaBattle helps with “here’s everything pretty dang close to the top”.

Just ... I don’t know. This is such a stupid argument.

[Firebeard.1746]

@paulelle.6813 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.

Raids is ENDGAME content. You ARE EXPECTED to know your class at a BASIC LEVEL, which means you are supposed to know how CS works and that it will TELEPORT YOU TO PREVIOUS LOCATION.If you read ANY Soulless Horror guide or wiki page or even SC guide, you will notice that it has WALL MECHANICS.

Now, knowing those 2 facts, you use your brain, because you are a smart human being, and come to the conclusion that using CS when walls are around MAY BE DANGEROUS AND CAUSE DEATH. SO, you will not use CS when wall is around.

It's like going to the university and demanding them to teach you 2+2 = 4

It's funny you talk to me like i'm an idiot when the guide itself tells people to stack toughness like it's not a global attribute of all classes easily explained in a tooltip. And wait for it.... trainers didn't even mention the fact i pointed out here. None of the other 10 people i've played with during bad runs. people with far more experience than me.... if that's not evidence for what op is saying i don't know what is. And on top of all this you have to dribble on the L2P noob. I did. And i've had issues forming groups explaining this strategy. So who's not learning to play? Who's toxicly forcing a meta. Not me.

A better analogy is the snow crows guide is like a guide for kindergarten teaching you abcs when it's saying it's a guide on rocket science.

[Firebeard.1746]

@paulelle.6813 said:

@"Blumpf.2518" said:What Seera.5916 basically said is: "If you want to learn how to drive a car, go to the formula 1 racing track first and learn how to drive that highspeed car that can get people killed. And once you are able to do that, slow down to the level that works for you and drive your Toyota at the speed that you want."Which is of course total bullkitten.

Okay, maybe you will understand it like this:SC is the formula 1 racing track. If you want to learn driving a car, you don't go to a racing track. So if you want to learn raiding, you don't go to SC website, you go to training discords instead.SC WEBSITE IS NOT A TRAINING WEBSITE AND WILL NEVER BE, SAME AS RACING TRACK WILL NEVER BE A DRIVING INSTRUCTOR, BECAUSE IT'S A RACING TRACK. SO IF SOMEONE WHO CAN'T DRIVE GOES TO A RACING TRACK INSTEAD OF DRIVING INSTRUCTOR, THEY CAN ONLY BLAME HIMSELF.

Then we should stop treating it as meta, like everyone does.

[paulelle.6813]

you don't understand what META means.META = Most Effective Tactics AvailableMETA != megacarry easy to survive build

SC builds are Most Effective Tactics Available.

Most effective is not the same as "working in any group, any comp, at any skill level".

[Ayrilana.1396]

I have the feeling that those arguing against Snow Crows do not raid. At least one person has a post from back in April where they stated they only got as far as Xera and stopped. No mention how many times they had done those wings either.

So we then have players with minimal to no raid experience commented about issues with raids and suggesting builds that very obviously would not work well.

What’s the difference between learning a meta build versus learning a sub-optimal build? Either way you’re going to commit resources to get the gear and hopefully learn to use the build. You’ll also still need to know the mechanics for each of the raid encounters as well.

It’s as if they’re trying to offer a solution to a “problem” that they don’t even understand.

[Swagger.1459]

@Blumpf.2518 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Blumpf.2518

"snowcrows should consider this and maybe offer LFG builds and LFG raid setups for the average players."

Why don't you do it yourself?

You know, i tried that, but since my "range" on the internet is so much less than snowcrows the thing that happens is:I: "Hey i see youre having trouble in this bossfight, you might wanna try this trait instead of this and this utility skill instead of this"Lfg Raider: "kitten? Are you stupid? Im playing the metabuild from snowcrows, now shut up"

I'm not the reference for builds and rotas. I neither have the internet range or the reputation. Im not publishing stuff on youtube or websites, im just a normal person who thinks for himself. If i tell someone something about raids or classes or builds it only comes from my experience as a gw2 player who plays since release and has done a lot of raiding with >2000 LI and killed all bosses multiple times with multiple classes. So yeah, i have gathered some experience and i know what problems appear for the average raider and how to deal with them.But for people in LFG im just a random stranger, telling them things, they never heard of or even considered thinking about. At the end of the day Snowcrows is like the Wikipedia of Raidbuilds or a famous football club and im only a normal person walking down the street. Of course people will listen to the "big players" then, its totally understandable.But when youre the big player, the number 1, the wikipedia, the idol, you have a responsibility now. You must know that whatever you say or recommend will affect others and thats where snowcrows totally fails. They know almost everyone is using their builds but they dont care about the consequences of their recommendations for normal players.

You seem very unappreciative of the service they provide to the GW2 community. You don't care about the time and effort those SC peeps put into their work. You are just bashing them, yet unwilling to go the extra miles to do what they did to get where they are, and also to do the things they do for the community.

Make your own raid guild that runs whatever builds and your problem is solved.

[Seera.5916]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:What Seera.5916 basically said is: "If you want to learn how to drive a car, go to the formula 1 racing track first and learn how to drive that highspeed car that can get people killed. And once you are able to do that, slow down to the level that works for you and drive your Toyota at the speed that you want."Which is of course total bullkitten.

Here's the thing. In game raiding and formula 1 racing have 2 very different outcomes for catastrophic failure.

And your analogy isn't even logical to the situation either.

Driving itself is more aligned with the game as a whole. Formula 1 racing is more aligned with raiding.

So if you want to learn how to drive you start out small and with help. But formula 1 race learning assumes you've mastered basic driving.

And you also completely missed what I was saying.

I said learn the meta build and adjust for your play skill level (adjust to preferences according to what the rest of the group brings). So you read over and look at it and figure out how the traits and skills work together and why those skills and traits and rotation was made so that when you adjust it down to your skill level for actual play, that you give up as little as possible of the meta build. So that your rotation and build are as close as possible so that it's easier to retrain muscle memory and break the bad habits that can come out of safer builds.

[Ooops.8694]

@paulelle.6813 said:you don't understand what META means.META = Most Effective Tactics AvailableNo, it doesn't....And who even coined this stupid backward acronym not even close to the original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later? sigh

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Ooops.8694 said:

@paulelle.6813 said:you don't understand what META means.META = Most Effective Tactics AvailableNo, it doesn't....And who even coined this stupid backward acronym not even close to the original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later?

sigh

META=Most Elitist Team Ever

[Astralporing.1957]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Ooops.8694 said:

@"paulelle.6813" said:you don't understand what META means.META = Most Effective Tactics AvailableNo, it doesn't....And who even coined this stupid backward acronym not even close to the original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later?

sigh

META=Most Elitist Team EverTrying to change a word into some random acronym does not change the meaning of said word. Even if you get your letters right.

(hint: the word Meta is not an acronym. And yeah, the most commonly used "acronym explanation" is wrong and completely misunderstands the meaning and origin of this word)

[Senfdieb.3985]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Okay that one I missed in the rework. Simple though, in this context a player could theoretically use toughness gear at the expense of power (or ferocity given Demolisher is not available in PvE and Knights would do) and end up with similar (actually still superior given how power>ferocity) stats as a core build even without messing with any tanking mechanics. In essence the trait simply gives free stats towards damage which can be reverted with itemization.

So the issues becomes rather one of: do I want to invest into such nonsense and make a custom build with a 1k toughness berserker (which one could do if not blindly following SC builds but thinking for oneself), or do I take the damage benefit at the damage taken increase?

Given the Blood Reckoning self heal of the berserker, I'd still contest the loss in toughness is no significant loss in survivability.

EDIT:Let me actually throw both builds up just for reference (thing to not: the editor does NOT account for that stat changes from the trait so those need to be added at the end manually. I kept the gear similar and utilities/traits as well):Berserker:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlRwmYdMOGJm6WWtKA-zxYYhon6raHSgJI1TpFhQtSgKUAtMC80sExZE-e3266 Power, 999 toughness, 1551 ferocity (253.4% crit damage), 300 condition damage

Core Warrior:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlFwmYdMOGJO2SdLLA-zxQYhon6fHSwp0iQoWJQFKgWGBeaWi4MC-e3198 Power, 1000 toughness, 1591 ferocity (256.07% crit damage)

So I am not seeing the advantage to core here. Berserker can actually chose to not take that useless toughness, or opt to build for it. Core can not. That is without mentioning the free condition damage and benefit of power>ferocity.

In my opinion it's not a good idea, cause if you can't maintain 100% berserk uptime during a fight it can cause some tank aggro issues (you only gain the stats while you are in berserk mode).

[Cyninja.2954]

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Okay that one I missed in the rework. Simple though, in this context a player could theoretically use toughness gear at the expense of power (or ferocity given Demolisher is not available in PvE and Knights would do) and end up with similar (actually still superior given how power>ferocity) stats as a core build even without messing with any tanking mechanics. In essence the trait simply gives free stats towards damage which can be reverted with itemization.

So the issues becomes rather one of: do I want to invest into such nonsense and make a custom build with a 1k toughness berserker (which one could do if not blindly following SC builds but thinking for oneself), or do I take the damage benefit at the damage taken increase?

Given the Blood Reckoning self heal of the berserker, I'd still contest the loss in toughness is no significant loss in survivability.

EDIT:Let me actually throw both builds up just for reference (thing to not: the editor does NOT account for that stat changes from the trait so those need to be added at the end manually. I kept the gear similar and utilities/traits as well):Berserker:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlRwmYdMOGJm6WWtKA-zxYYhon6raHSgJI1TpFhQtSgKUAtMC80sExZE-e

3266 Power, 999 toughness, 1551 ferocity (253.4% crit damage), 300 condition damage

Core Warrior:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKABcelnlFwmYdMOGJO2SdLLA-zxQYhon6fHSwp0iQoWJQFKgWGBeaWi4MC-e

3198 Power, 1000 toughness, 1591 ferocity (256.07% crit damage)

So I am not seeing the advantage to core here. Berserker can actually chose to not take that useless toughness, or opt to build for it. Core can not. That is without mentioning the free condition damage and benefit of power>ferocity.

In my opinion it's not a good idea, cause if you can't maintain 100% berserk uptime during a fight it can cause some tank aggro issues (you only gain the stats while you are in berserk mode).

Oh I agree, personally I would love to exchange 300 toughness on any of my damage specs for 300 power, I'd even be fine with 200 power. The point is it is possible and with proper use of berserk, you can be in berserk mode near indefinitely or at the very least during most damage phases or boss phases.

Still groups where this would be required are very likely be running tanks with 1,400+ toughness if not full minstrel chrono.

Just saying, the option is there and this is an itemization issue.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:(hint: the word Meta is not an acronym. And yeah, the most commonly used "acronym explanation" is wrong and completely misunderstands the meaning and origin of this word)

And in its origin, meta is not even a word. It's a prefix.

[Yasai.3549]

Meta only exists for one reason : Consistent clearing.

If the person hosting the LFG are in fact, looking for Consistent clears, follow the meta.If yu wanna run off meta stuff, while still able to clear, go ahead and make yur own LFG advertising as such.If yu are new, if a bunch of peepz are new, make their own training LFG with no restrictions.

It's not a problem if no one makes it a problem.

[paulelle.6813]

@Ooops.8694 said:

@"paulelle.6813" said:you don't understand what META means.META = Most Effective Tactics AvailableNo, it doesn't....And who even coined this stupid backward acronym not even close to the original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later?

sigh

Please enlighten us what does it mean then. Because you know, the most common meaning, used among gamers, means exactly what I wrote.

"The Oxford English Dictionary cites uses of the meta- prefix as "beyond, about" (such as meta-economics and meta-philosophy) going back to 1917.""Meta is a common Greek prefix meaning "beyond" which often carries a sense of self-reference."Do you mean any of those origins?

"In the world of gaming, meta is used in two ways. Meta can be used as an acronym for “most effective tactics available,” and calling something “meta” means that it’s an effective way to achieve the goal of the game, whether it’s to beat other players or beat the game itself. Meta can also be short for metagame, which is using information about the game, derived from the world beyond the game or its rules, to influence the outcome of the game or gain a competitive edge."

So which one is it?

" original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later? " Sorry, didn't know we had online games in 1970

[Astralporing.1957]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:(hint: the word Meta is

not

an acronym. And yeah, the most commonly used "acronym explanation" is wrong and completely misunderstands the meaning and origin of this word)

And in its origin, meta is not even a word. It's a prefix.Indeed.

@"paulelle.6813" said:" original meaning of meta gaming more than half a century later? " Sorry, didn't know we had online games in 1970Online games? No. Computer games? Sure (i'm quite sure that first computer games appeared even earlier, during sixties). Notice also, that the words "metagame" and "metagaming" are not even tied to computer games. They became popular first in the

pen and paper RPG

community. And the first pen and paper RPGs did appear in seventies. So, while it's likely more like 45 years, "half a century later" is still not bad an approximation.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:(hint: the word Meta is

not

an acronym. And yeah, the most commonly used "acronym explanation" is wrong and completely misunderstands the meaning and origin of this word)

And in its origin, meta is not even a word. It's a prefix.Indeed. Original meta is. Although the meta we speak of is a noun derived from that prefix.

Well no. That the thing YOU (and @Ooops.8694 it seems) talk about.

This thread is about Snowcrow website which profide us the M.E.T.A. (most effective tactics available) for pve raid (+ some off META builds ans tips..).Like dT provide us the t4 fractals META...

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:This thread is about Snowcrow website which profide us the M.E.T.A. (most effective tactics available) for pve raid (+ some off META builds ans tips..).Like dT provide us the t4 fractals META...

Actually, as it has been already pointed out, Snowcrows site is not limited to the "most effective" builds. It also deals with builds that aren't as efficient, even while being still considered to be meta (because, you know, meta does not automatically imply peak efficiency), as well as builds that are well known for being completely inefficient.

(and by the way, about that M.E.T.A. acronym - you do know, that "casual meta" is also very much a thing?)

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:This thread is about Snowcrow website which profide us the M.E.T.A. (most effective tactics available) for pve raid (

+ some off META builds ans tips

..).Like dT provide us the t4 fractals META...

Actually, as it has been already pointed out, Snowcrows site is not limited to the "most effective" builds. It also deals with builds that

aren't

as efficient, even while being still considered to be meta (because, you know, meta does not automatically imply peak efficiency), as well as builds that are well known for being completely inefficient.

Well yes, like i said in the post you just quote (i'll put it in bold as you miss it).EDIT : the less efficient builds are off-META.

(and by the way, about that M.E.T.A. acronym - you do know, that "casual meta" is also very much a thing?)

Well i'm not sure about what you're talking about.. can you precise?

When we talk about M.E.T.A., it is always related to some precise situation/content, like Raid META (and each boss have its own META), Fract META (same, there is different META for each fract), OW META, WvW META, etc...

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:When we talk about M.E.T.A., it is always related to some precise situation/content, like Raid META (and each boss have its own META), Fract META (same, there is different META for each fract), OW META, WvW META, etc...The main point is that when we talk about Meta, we don't really talk about M.E.T.A. That acronym may sound nice, but that's not what Meta is. Sure, the as-high-as-possible effectiveness is one of the primary goals of builds that are made for high-end content, but:

• it's not the only consideration. Often, efficiency can be sacrificed for ease of use, for example. And there's a matter of popularity. there have been cases when some more effective builds were not in meta, because they were for some reason not popular. There were also cases when much less effective builds (or even ones that were created as meme builds) ended up in meta because they happened to gain some popularity for other reasons than just efficiency.
• second, meta is not something that is limited to high-end content. And in open world, for example, being "most effective" is of far less importance.

In short, my point is that the "most effective tactics available" is something that appeared long after the word "meta" was a thing, and it encompasses only a small fraction of what meta is.

(that's in addition to what i said about Snowcrows site not being about M.E.T.A., which can be seen easily by just looking through that site, and seeing how some of things that they mention are far from being "most effective". In fact, i'd say that the "most efficient" stuff is in minority on that site)

[paulelle.6813]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:When we talk about M.E.T.A., it is always related to some precise situation/content, like Raid META (and each boss have its own META), Fract META (same, there is different META for each fract), OW META, WvW META, etc...The main point is that when we talk about Meta, we don't really talk about M.E.T.A. That acronym may sound nice, but that's not what Meta is. Sure, the as-high-as-possible effectiveness is one of the primary goals of builds that are made for high-end content, but:

• it's not the only consideration. Often, efficiency
  can
  be sacrificed for ease of use, for example. And there's a matter of popularity. there have been cases when some more effective builds were not in meta, because they were for some reason not popular. There were also cases when much less effective builds (or even ones that were created as meme builds) ended up in meta because they happened to gain some popularity for other reasons than just efficiency.
• second, meta is not something that is limited to high-end content. And in open world, for example, being "most effective" is of far less importance.

In short, my point is that the "most effective tactics available" is something that appeared long after the word "meta" was a thing, and it encompasses only a small fraction of what meta is.

(that's in addition to what i said about Snowcrows site

not

being about M.E.T.A., which can be seen easily by just looking through that site, and seeing how some of things that they mention are far from being "most effective". In fact, i'd say that the "most efficient" stuff is in minority on that site)

Please share with us the "true" definition of "meta", because all you (and some others) are saying is that acronym is not the right definition, but you still don't tell us what "meta" really means for you

[yann.1946]

@paulelle.6813 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:When we talk about M.E.T.A., it is always related to some precise situation/content, like Raid META (and each boss have its own META), Fract META (same, there is different META for each fract), OW META, WvW META, etc...The main point is that when we talk about Meta, we don't really talk about M.E.T.A. That acronym may sound nice, but that's not what Meta is. Sure, the as-high-as-possible effectiveness is one of the primary goals of builds that are made for high-end content, but:

• it's not the only consideration. Often, efficiency
  can
  be sacrificed for ease of use, for example. And there's a matter of popularity. there have been cases when some more effective builds were not in meta, because they were for some reason not popular. There were also cases when much less effective builds (or even ones that were created as meme builds) ended up in meta because they happened to gain some popularity for other reasons than just efficiency.
• second, meta is not something that is limited to high-end content. And in open world, for example, being "most effective" is of far less importance.

In short, my point is that the "most effective tactics available" is something that appeared long after the word "meta" was a thing, and it encompasses only a small fraction of what meta is.

(that's in addition to what i said about Snowcrows site

not

being about M.E.T.A., which can be seen easily by just looking through that site, and seeing how some of things that they mention are far from being "most effective". In fact, i'd say that the "most efficient" stuff is in minority on that site)

Please share with us the "true" definition of "meta", because all you (and some others) are saying is that acronym is not the right definition, but you still don't tell us what "meta" really means for you

Meta comes from meta gaming. Which is basically all gaming which uses the info that it is a game.Min maxing in rpgs is an example because the characters wouldn't necessarily learn these abilities, but the player would

[Fueki.4753]

@"paulelle.6813" said:Please share with us the "true" definition of "meta"

Just like the Greek prefix implies, meta-gaming encompasses all the "gaming" that goes beyond actually playing the game.This includes min-maxing and theory crafting builds (do note, that testing those builds is not meta-gaming, as the tests are done in the game).

Meta-gaming at its simplest level even includes just visiting Bulbapedia and thinking about which Pokémon you want to put on your team.

Another example would be deciding what kind of build with which weapon you are going to do on a Dark Souls or Bloodborne run (just don't tell anybody you levelled dexterity).

[yann.1946]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"paulelle.6813" said:Please share with us the "true" definition of "meta"

Just like the Greek prefix implies, meta-gaming encompasses all the "gaming" that goes beyond actually playing the game.This includes min-maxing and theory crafting builds (do note, that testing those builds is

not

meta-gaming, as the tests are done in the game).

Meta-gaming at its simplest level even includes just visiting Bulbapedia and thinking about which Pokémon you want to put on your team.

Another example would be deciding what kind of build with which weapon you are going to do on a Dark Souls or Bloodborne run (just don't tell anybody you levelled dexterity).

It doesn't actually have to be explicitly outside the game. Things you do specifically because you have knowledge that the character you play has would also fall inside it, for example when some character calls follow me, and you ignore them to see if you missed some loot is also meta gaming.