Suggestion: lower the barrier to entry for commanders

[SweetPotato.7456]

There is no barrier to commander, all you need is 300g and a very thick skin, and be very "durable" against toxic comments. 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

11 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

The big problem is blob stacking is mind-numbingly boring, I'm amazed theres even the few left that there is willing to do it. 2 years of bot life was plenty for me, if it ever comes down to blob or gtfo I'll be elsewhere.. Got a ssd chock full of software.

yeah, bLoB stole your lunch money, okay. most of these blobs are just huge clouds. they are neither capable of moving close quarters nor are they able to focus dmg or anything. with a 35ish zerg u can farm a lot of blobs actually. numbers are in a lot of cases an excuse.

 

like, if everyone understood how to play, then rangers, thieves etc would just leave the maps and give space to people who could fight the blobs. blobs mostly flock around inexperienced ppt commanders, who aren't capable to react to most kinds of pushes (or entirely miss these)

 

numbers can get a problem, if u also have no experienced players, as it is obviously a numbersgame then.

 

that's less a numbers, more a quality issue then. (and yes, a very common problem)

 

  

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah, thats totally why the cloud need to bring 50+ to beat you.

 

So they can avoid fighting you.

 

Checks out.

 

well, if we go at reset into a keep, and there's 60~ clouders + siege inside their garri, and we farm them for 20 minutes or more.... yes they kinda are avoid to really fight. bc they don't really work together, it's a lot of solo rambos. and it is very often barely a defeat, if the cloud trades 25 deaths for one kill

 

if u want to fight sth at a size, you should also get a certain size. cloudy pugs with certain builds can do good assistant damage, just they won't ever perform decisively well, if there's not at least a guildgroup leading the engages

 

even if many people won't understand this, but two groups with 25 people on metaclasses + 5-10 pugs would perform way better against a 45-50 man blob (like common on reset days) than the 60+ cloud-blob can ever hope to do.

 

anet themselves made numbers more counting by nerfing all damage, so don't @ me about this.

still, if people would really want to fight, they would LEARN how to fight, don't u think? instead they use random builds and unsuitable classes, and don't really work together after all

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

Any class works for comanding :|

[Aeolus.3615]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah, thats totally why the cloud need to bring 50+ to beat you.

 

So they can avoid fighting you.

 

Checks out.

 

50 solo players. vs 1 its still a  1vs1   :]

 

49 just tagged for a bag.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Dawdler.8521]

34 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

well, if we go at reset into a keep, and there's 60~ clouders + siege inside their garri, and we farm them for 20 minutes or more.... yes they kinda are avoid to really fight. bc they don't really work together, it's a lot of solo rambos. and it is very often barely a defeat, if the cloud trades 25 deaths for one kill

 

if u want to fight sth at a size, you should also get a certain size. cloudy pugs with certain builds can do good assistant damage, just they won't ever perform decisively well, if there's not at least a guildgroup leading the engages

 

even if many people won't understand this, but two groups with 25 people on metaclasses + 5-10 pugs would perform way better against a 45-50 man blob (like common on reset days) than the 60+ cloud-blob can ever hope to do.

 

anet themselves made numbers more counting by nerfing all damage, so don't @ me about this.

still, if people would really want to fight, they would LEARN how to fight, don't u think? instead they use random builds and unsuitable classes, and don't really work together after all

 

 

You do realize what you are saying here, right?

 

Ok so the enemy dont have a commander and they spend 20+ minutes anyway, against the odds, trying to stop your commanded group from taking the objective. 

 

Yet they dont want to fight.

 

You dont even think they are worth fighting so you dont want to bother unless they bring a 25+ commanded zerg to fight you "for real".

 

Yet they are the ones that dont want to fight.

 

They take 25 deaths for each person they try to kill in your boonball?

 

Yet they avoid to fight.

 

If anyone wonder why I cant stand stacking on commanders anymore and prefer to roam freely, this is generally why. I will rush into a fight against the odds. I dont stay in spawn on a commander because "there is no content".

 

Do I die against a stacked meta boonball zerg? For sure. I know what is needed to fight them is another boonball zerg. But I dont always have the luxury of having one to throw at them. So I fight anyway.

 

They dont seem to like it when I pull and kill their backliners though.

 

I have no idea why because if they know I dont want to fight, why are they fighting me when I try to kill them?

[displayname.8315]

44 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

yeah, bLoB stole your lunch money, okay.

12 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

The big problem is blob stacking

His 5 - 10 man group plays mostly around SEA/EU time on a NA server without much to offer during those times.  If you know NA it's better than EU for pop-in and play action but there is for sure a stacking problem off-hours.

 

Alliances might be "stacking" people together but if they get the timezone issue corrected even a little bit I would think his group will be able to perform much better.

 

Send my thanks to trollbane for his tagging and exceptional gameplay.

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

even if many people won't understand this, but two groups with 25 people on metaclasses + 5-10 pugs would perform way better against a 45-50 man blob (like common on reset days) than the 60+ cloud-blob can ever hope to do.

It's not "metaclasses," it's having a 2:3 or 3:2 support-to-damage ratio and standing in a tight ball to share the damage from AOEs. (The "cloud" has plenty of Scourges, Weavers, and Heralds.)

 

Ultimately this whole configuration rests on having 50% of your players being ready and willing to play those support roles and the other 50% willing to hug them super tight, which is what the tag provides. But that playstyle is incredibly boring unless the driver is actually SMART and FUN.

 

The drivers who take that tight little ball and run around the ramparts of an already-opened keep for 20 minutes spamming 10 CCs on one person at a time in the name of "farming bags" instead of just forcing a cap on the dang objective and moving on to a better fight somewhere else? They aren't especially smart or fun, ime.

[displayname.8315]

27 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

The drivers who take that tight little ball and run around the ramparts of an already-opened keep for 20 minutes spamming 10 CCs on one person at a time in the name of "farming bags" instead of just forcing a cap on the dang objective and moving on to a better fight somewhere else? They aren't especially smart or fun

uhg that about sums up the "good players" nowadays lol.  I just had to leave a server because they became a bro'd out "bag farm" elites and got boring so fast.

 

They would quickly be shamed and quit if there were still fight guilds in the game.  Those guys ain't fight guilds..

Edited August 23, 2021 by displayname.8315

[ArchonWing.9480]

At the end of the day, it seems like inflexibility to me.

 

That is, roamers that won't press a button to change their build into something meant for larger groups (I suppose vice versa too) ,and commanders that think their whole blob is a boonball when there is no way it could be that. You need to base your actions on what people will probably do, as opposed to what you think they should do.

 

Naturally the blame goes all ways when it's done.

 

There are tactics for most situations. Though sometimes people are just too uncooperative/afk and the map is lost. If the map is queued, then you really need to work in sync with your team. And if you don't, that's fine too but don't expect to get anything done.

Edited August 23, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[LetoII.3782]

3 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

His 5 - 10 man group plays mostly around SEA/EU time on a NA server without much to offer during those times.  If you know NA it's better than EU for pop-in and play action but there is for sure a stacking problem off-hours.

 

Alliances might be "stacking" people together but if they get the timezone issue corrected even a little bit I would think his group will be able to perform much better.

 

Send my thanks to trollbane for his tagging and exceptional gameplay.

I... Don't know who we're talking about lol.

That statement was more generally about my attitude towards pin centric play in general.. 

And why it's harder for new commanders to start doing it now.

 

But you're welcome for trollbane, I'm a proud mommy

Edited August 23, 2021 by LetoII.3782

[LetoII.3782]

4 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

like, if everyone understood how to play, then rangers, thieves etc would just leave the maps and give space to people who could fight the blobs.

You say that like standing in a big clump exploiting the AoE cap is some fantastic revelation the rest of us don't see.

 

..I was in a turtle fight day three of headstart <,<

 

I do not do it because it's BORING

[displayname.8315]

2 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

my attitude towards pin centric play in general.. 

And why it's harder for new commanders to start doing it now.

I'm with you on that.  There's a reason you don't see the boonball metaboys out roaming when dear leader is not online.  Every fight guild I was in the skilled players would actually play the game and not just sit at spawn complaining about "clouds".

[devastoscz.9851]

I'm a backup/secondary tag for a very active guild in NA prime. We run basically every single day; I've been here for 7 years now. While not particularly large, our core group is pretty solid (10-20 strong each night). Our primary commander is a talented guy, strategically. Me, not so much, but I can hold my own in most cases; in large part because I've learned from better commanders than myself and because my guild trusts me and is disciplined enough to follow me even if it means dying. Take that as background credentials for the following commentary:

 

To answer OP:

1.) You do not need to be  a firebrand to command, so long as the tag's 5 man group has a reliable firebrand for stability. If your FB is on your team, on comms, and is generally proficient, you can command on almost anything that's intended to go into the melee ball. I've been firebrand to our tags on countless occasions (including last night to a necro tag).

2.) It would be very convenient to be able to switch classes without having to re-enter queue. However, it seems unlikely such a system could be implemented easily without abuse. The current system is harsh, but fair.

 

As for the larger discussion about the meta and boon ball / zergs and pugs.

1.) Pugs, pretty much by definition, are selfish and can rarely be counted on. In some servers this is more true than others. Just last night we had 15-20 pugs pew pewing a lord down while our 24 man group (only 8 guildies, the rest from other fight oriented groups) fought and died to a 40 man "organized" zerg from an opposing server. If the pugs had joined in with us in the fight against the players (as we asked), even with sub par builds, with no comms, we would've easily wiped them. Easily. But no, the pugs wanted their lord loot. So our organized group wipes due to being outnumbered and then the pugs get eaten by the enemy zerg. And then they have the gall to complain.

2.) The issues with the zerg meta stem from the design of the classes and the actual WvW reward/capture mechanics.
a.) The game heavily rewards synergistic squad comps and this means set roles if your aim is to be the most efficient. Some guild groups enforce this strictly, others are more lax. The former, all other things equal, will overpower the latter. This is true in all versions of the META over the years it boon ball / pirate ship / hammer train spin to win.

b.) Current WvW reward heavily reinforce blobbing up or not being in a group at all; the middle ground is no-man's land and you'll suffer for it. The fact that the significant rewards are only a matter of time spent and not objectives completed or fights won. While dailies provide a checklist of objectives to accomplish, they offer no meaningful progression within the actual WvW advancement system. Neither do fights won/lost, damage, healing etc. So people either blob up to run over others or don't group up at all so you don't get run over by significantly larger groups. So it's a lose-lose situation unless you're in a blob or don't care at all.

c.) Capture mechanics for objectives, particularly keeps, heavily favor groups with large numbers. The fact that you need to go through two sets off walls with siege, fighting off height and siege advantage makes the numbers game a necessity. And don't get me wrong, I think that's okay. The real problem comes from the capture point mechanic, you just need your blob to get into a single circle and keep people off to capture.  A system that forces splitting up the invading team into sections for capture would allow smaller groups to be able to defend a keep if they were "the better group", killing off sectioned parts of the invading force one at a time.

 

There need to be alternatives to these particular situations if we are ever going to get the WvW we THINK we want. For all we know, the current situation is heaven compared to having 8 tags of split up groups everywhere because all the tags hate each other and won't collaborate and therefore nobody can do anything. I wouldn't be surprised at this point.



 

[Bristingr.5034]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:59 PM, Gorem.8104 said:

I tried tagging up before, no one joined, the usual tag  tags up, insta 50 squad. That's the difference I see. 

There's almost 0 reason to tag these days unless you are a player who has been tagging for years already and fill a slot that a tag has no already filled. Even if a map is full, and there is no tags on the map, newbie tags I see often get maybe one person joining them. Stuck at spawn? someone tags up, no one joins them, I even join on them to test and check it out, and realise they are tagged but alone, surrounded by 50 people not in any group. Yet if you join an old tag, its already full. 

Seems like, essentially, you need to persevere with tagging, do it for years and then you are able to easily pull a group in, and do the exact thing you would have done years ago, only are able to since people are actually following you. I'm hoping alliances fixes this issue, as it will be a much more tight nit group as you will get to know everyone in your alliance regardless of you being tagged or not. 

You do need a reputation to acquire followers when you tag. I remember when I first tagged up, I didn't know what the kitten I was doing, and definitely got us killed a lot, but as I learned, more started to follow me and my server began to accept my capabilities as a Tempest Commander. If I plan to be on WvW for a while, and I see someone new tagged up, I'll usually try and follow them to see how they do, etc.

Everyone has to start somewhere after all.

[kash.9213]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:24 AM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

yeah, bLoB stole your lunch money, okay. most of these blobs are just huge clouds. they are neither capable of moving close quarters nor are they able to focus dmg or anything. with a 35ish zerg u can farm a lot of blobs actually. numbers are in a lot of cases an excuse.

 

like, if everyone understood how to play, then rangers, thieves etc would just leave the maps and give space to people who could fight the blobs. blobs mostly flock around inexperienced ppt commanders, who aren't capable to react to most kinds of pushes (or entirely miss these)

 

numbers can get a problem, if u also have no experienced players, as it is obviously a numbersgame then.

 

that's less a numbers, more a quality issue then. (and yes, a very common problem)

 

  

 

well, if we go at reset into a keep, and there's 60~ clouders + siege inside their garri, and we farm them for 20 minutes or more.... yes they kinda are avoid to really fight. bc they don't really work together, it's a lot of solo rambos. and it is very often barely a defeat, if the cloud trades 25 deaths for one kill

 

if u want to fight sth at a size, you should also get a certain size. cloudy pugs with certain builds can do good assistant damage, just they won't ever perform decisively well, if there's not at least a guildgroup leading the engages

 

even if many people won't understand this, but two groups with 25 people on metaclasses + 5-10 pugs would perform way better against a 45-50 man blob (like common on reset days) than the 60+ cloud-blob can ever hope to do.

 

anet themselves made numbers more counting by nerfing all damage, so don't @ me about this.

still, if people would really want to fight, they would LEARN how to fight, don't u think? instead they use random builds and unsuitable classes, and don't really work together after all

 

 

If everyone knew how to play, then more commanders would protect their people from thieves and rangers who decided not to leave the map. My two main thief builds are for covering people and getting them back up because rigid or complacent tags and squads leave a trail of content so there's always something to do. 

[Pacificterror.7805]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:01 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

There should be levels of commands (such as multiple chevrons on tag indicating size or "rank") with indicated mission before someone join (such as hover over description).

That would be pretty great, especially if there was something along the lines of "You can only see my tag so that you know where my group is on the map" - for those closed groups with a visible tag. Would definitely be nice knowing how many groups on the map are purely KTrains and how many will actually go to aid an objective in need.

[Amarok.2147]

On 8/22/2021 at 9:02 AM, displayname.8315 said:

I didn't play clerics much either in EQ/WoW but people enjoy them.  When you get fast at the tomes and know when to use them properly you carry super hard.

 

@Amarok.2147Stop playing D&D and go hardcore WvW pls and TY.

I will continue to tag up on Tue/Thu/and Fri for GoM, just need to gain my following again 😂 I logged in and had a few people say why should we follow you, I've never heard of you before 🥲 I guess it's time for me to return properly and start not only recruiting for WOLF again, but to hopefully recruit and train some future commanders as well

Edited August 30, 2021 by Amarok.2147

[Gorani.7205]

(did not read walls of text, just a reply to the OP who feels kind of pushed into Firebrand to be a commander)

In my experience, a specialized "sustainable" commander is only necessary in guild squads and optimized build parties or sub-groups, where the commander icon is the place to concentrate fire or move to (when no voice commands are used).

 

Commanding and flagging up as a commander mostly is a mindset (of what you can bear and how mostly random people are willing to follow) and therefore not so much dependent on the profession played. I don't think a "game mechanic" can help or anything can be added to support novice commanders.

They just need a very thick skin and a high level of frustration resilience. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Gorani.7205
typo

[Grand Marshal.4098]

From my view and experience:

 

Pug tags can lead on anything so long they ar talkative in chat and provide an understanding of what needs to be done. 

 

If you are in a guild and want to try tagging up publicly, your guildies will support you anyway and pugs are very interested in joining organized open squads. Last year I joined my guild we had our guild leader doing private tags for a few of us. 1 year later we have almost 6 commanders who do public tags using our discord and who learn how to command, as well as teaching newer people how zerging works rn. 

 

Its not all too gloomy, because if you rly want to invest in commanding, expand your circle find individuals (as someone else said) that have fun with you and will help you gather others around you. 

 

Yes FB is a good commander class, but if you know what you are doing, you will be OK with any class. 1 FB and scrapper in your party make sure you can survive anything.