Suggestion: lower the barrier to entry for commanders

[Ballistic.2570]

I'll just preface this by saying that I'm not a commander. The way I see it, one of the major issues for WvW is how difficult it is to get good at commanding. There are not that many comms on each server, making coveage even at prime time difficult on a lot of servers. More commanders = more content for everyone. Obviously it's an old game and there are comms with years of experience who just roll over new comms no matter what the situation is but I think more people would tag up if it was a bit more convenient/easier.

 

One of the major issues I feel is that you can only really be an effective comm on Firebrand. There are outlyers who command maybe on warrior or mesmer but in reality having the commander be a beacon of healing, stab and cleanses has been proven to be by far the most effective method of commanding. The message is simple, 'get on tag, that's where the support is.' So you get a situation where a lot of veterans with a good understanding of the game, class cohesion, movement, stealthing and bomb placement; won't tag up because they won't play firebrand. Personally, I find the spec to be not very appealing, it's very busy, and difficult to play well. To get to the heart of it, I think more people would command if the spec that is the only real option at commanding was a bit easier to play well or if there were more top-tier commander specs. It seems counterintuitive, that the hardest class to play well is also the class you have to master if you want to even think about commanding at a decent level. 

 

I've thought this for a long time and have seen it pop up in posts now and then: if you're in WvW, on a map, and you want to change class, you should not have to re-queue. I can't count how many times I've heard "hey X wanna tag up" and X replies "I can't, there's a 50 man queue, unless you want me to command on rev xD" For instance, maybe the squad is getting a bit blobby and you want to do a split raid or maybe the comm needs a break etc.

 

Those are just my own thoughts on it, I'm probably just bad and need to git gud.

[Justine.6351]

Swapping classes with a que is a complicated "fairness" issue which is why it hasn't changed.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Ballistic.2570 said:

"I can't, there's a 50 man queue, unless you want me to command on rev xD"

Which is a self imposed barrier. It has nothing to do with Anet and everything to do with players. It should not be "fixed" by Anet because players doesnt deserve to have it fixed. So command on that kitten rev, yes. You got builds, right?

 

What you are saying isnt even "lowering" the barrier to entry. Its catering to top zerg commanders.

 

If you want to lower the barrier - if you want to see more commanders, more smaller groups, make it reasonable to accept multiple 10+ man groups instead of either 0 or 50 - then whats needed is a better visual system to tell the intent of the tag, not just an icon that means nothing except a silent community agreement. There should be levels of commands (such as multiple chevrons on tag indicating size or "rank") with indicated mission before someone join (such as hover over description).

[subversiontwo.7501]

15 hours ago, Ballistic.2570 said:

I'll just preface this by saying that I'm not a commander. The way I see it, one of the major issues for WvW is how difficult it is to get good at commanding. There are not that many comms on each server, making coveage even at prime time difficult on a lot of servers. More commanders = more content for everyone.

/.../

One of the major issues I feel is that you can only really be an effective comm on Firebrand. /.../ The message is simple, 'get on tag, that's where the support is.' So you get a situation where a lot of veterans with a good understanding of the game, class cohesion, movement, stealthing and bomb placement; won't tag up because they won't play firebrand.

First up, thank you for a good thread. I think it was well put and quite insightful even for a learning / question-why kind of post. I think you are onto alot of things in your observation and how you put them but then perhaps fall off a bit when looking for explanations and solutions.

 

The issue with getting good at commanding (ie., earning a reputation and attracting people) mostly comes from organisation and success. The most important factor of which is to have friends who help you. I've argued that many times as an example as to why World Restructuring is important. People may tag up (and it is certainly fair to be a commander without necessarily being a commander who is capable of taking the prime content in your matchup), but what almost every reputable (fighting-) commander I know have in common is that they started commanding in guilds and with the help of their guilds/friends. That's how World Restructuring (giving more incentive to play in guilds) is important for the: "More commanders = more content for everyone.". The primary factor to becomming good as a commander is to have the help and support to succeed, grow and match up. That makes you learn far quicker than attempting to lead 49 other players by yourself over and over.

 

You are onto something regarding the Firebrand and its necessity or not as well. It isn't so much that it is better to lead on (like you mention yourself, Warriors and Mesmers also makes good leaders; in a more complex organisation there are plenty of other classes that can take sub-leadership roles as well - just because pickups have settled on a 1 leads 49 norm today - doesn't mean that it has always been the case or needs to be the case in the future). Instead, you rightly briefly touch upon that the main reason that the Guardian (or Firebrand) is the normative command class has to do with the importance and copiability of its core mechanics. Stability really is that important. CC wins and loses encounters, quickly. CC really is that strong in WvW (arguably it is too strong or counters to it too weak or too sparse to become overly important in a supply-demand sense of balance). The basics of Empowering (for regroups and spikes) and using Stand Your Ground (for pushes) still outlines the basics of engagements even today. It is easy to call if you do it yourself and it is easy to lead people to copy.

 

Some people find Firebrand hard, but I find it relatively easy (to learn to a functional degree) for that very same reason. No other class has so many of its buttons called out by a tag. If you quickly want a better understanding of WvW, one of the best ways to do so is to hop onto an FB and just listen, follow and copy the commander. Many times the various meta sites do a disfavour to certain servers by promoting builds that are more difficult, were never intended as beginner builds or simply do not fit the demography or organisation of those servers. It isn't even the sites fault, more so how people read and treat them today. I often see things like Scourge being suggested for new players, but that is a far more difficult build to punch through the skill floor on and do anything more than running around drooling and dying. People tend to find FB more difficult because of its importance or because you can not hide in numbers in the same way, but that does not make those players better on something like Scourge tbh. It is optics more than impact.

 

With all these things in mind you can see how help makes you good and better as well as how FB's popularity comes more from how it can lead by example, calls and copy. Whereas if you want to play something else and have the support and experience you certainly can. It isn't necessarily better to be on FB if you have the support and understanding to do it on something else already. Having understanding implies that you at least know the basics of an FB well enough to call them, even if you are on another class. That's not to say that other classes couldn't get more stab or that the stab-CC balance could be changed to make it less of a requirement. I'm just saying that just as with the first paragraph that support and experience trumphs the whole class issue as well. If people don't know FB well enough to lead on something else with the help of friends, then they simply do not have a good understanding. Then it also doesn't matter if they start leading on anything else either because they still have experience and reputation to build.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Xenesis.6389]

I don't think classes to run as a commander is the problem, as you can run successfully without being a firebrand, most even run as chrono these days, and there have been times when others would run as warrior or revenant, as long as you have access to stability, positioning is a more important part of commanding.

 

The bigger problem is what's behind you and what's in front of you, and the entry barrier constantly going up, from needing to be in voice, to running meta class, run the proper equipment and build. Every group now requires firebrands and scrappers. Pug groups have a much harder time dealing with comp/guild groups these days than before unless they're running much more numbers, and all because of the heavy reliance on boon ball meta now. It can be a frustrating experience dealing with more organized groups now with pugs. Waiting to see if any of the new specs will be a stability spammer, because it's the only way you are going to get away from firebrands (most likely won't happen).

 

Also yes cc is really strong in this game, with so many specs and more cc added over time, and no diminishing returns on them. Stability is the catch all boon to handle most of it, but you still also need stun breakers and even cleanses to get rid of immobilization, and stability isn't exactly evenly available to every class while cc's pretty much are. Wish cc's and boons were less available and more tactical than spammable.

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Pug groups have a much harder time dealing with comp/guild groups these days than before

Good guilds, like actual good guilds have pretty much always run over inexperienced pugs.  People gunna get one pushed and never really learn the game.  Guilds gunna private tag cuz they can't carry hard enough, hide your shame. 

 

And it's still an uplevel game but you can only see that in your own squad now.  Poor uplevels getting rekt bring back uplevel markers so we can be chivalrous. 

[kash.9213]

The main issue as I see it is no one uses tools that are already in game. Much of the communication can be done quickly through Alert Target and other proximity and map indicators. There's a place to put the description of what your squad is all about and how it's structured, but no one fills that out and no one reads it. So, everyone thinks a commander tag has to be on discord driving a map queue and it doesn't help that anyone running different types of squads will feel pressure to get off a map most of the time. 

 

There should be a lot of tags on all of the maps doing different stuff which would work if people used the tools that are already there. The large blobs and guild groups seem to be only as good as the other side is bad most of the time, so if they're tripping over each other and racing into another faceplant wipe then that whole map is kind of done until they call it a night. 

 

Tag up and be clear about what you're doing, causal or focused, and the people who are down for that will run with you. There's probably some public or server discord or something you can camp in for awhile if you need voice. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by kash.9213

[subversiontwo.7501]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

The bigger problem is what's behind you and what's in front of you, and the entry barrier constantly going up, from needing to be in voice, to running meta class, run the proper equipment and build. Every group now requires firebrands and scrappers. Pug groups have a much harder time dealing with comp/guild groups these days than before unless they're running much more numbers, and all because of the heavy reliance on boon ball meta now. It can be a frustrating experience dealing with more organized groups now with pugs.

Much of this is also just down to complacency. Even if experience constantly goes up and the game is getting old, I've seen general organisation and rebirth go down. You can see this in who commands and builds community. A first generation of tags may have quit some time after the vanilla peak (ie., EotM to HoT). However, a second generation of tags has been around ever since and on several of the servers I play those are still the tags that take on the bulk or prime hours of content. Those players mostly go through the motions now (sometimes because they feel obligated within their social circle or because there is no one else who tries or gets due support when they do) and that is what has lead to the staleness of meta.

 

So I would almost say that it is more the opposite: That pickups have become relatively worse compared to the entry level guilds. All the expansion eras have had support pairings (double Guard in vanilla, Guard-Tempest in HoT and Guard-Scrapper in PoF) as norms or meta. Some things that entry level guilds use with effect against most pickups, such as stealth-gyro regroups, are seen as incredibly basic among more experienced groups. It is more so the 1-49 norm and complacency that makes it effective. None of those 49 players seems to know what a reveal is, even if the basic guild group litterally regroups right in front of them and just runs forward. If you teach people that every basic meta Rev build in the squad can reveal that group (from range), eyes just pop and someone exclaims "magic".

 

If you put a target marker on something it is normal to see someone put it right back on our own tag, sometimes even complain about it in party chat (if they find the willpower to type), and when it is extra entertaining, it is the player who decided to play the class/build that should be the most attentative to focus targets. I could go on, there are alot of these issues in tired old pickups these days. Of course something like a "boon ball" is going to be troublesome if you can't focus or coordinate your damage on a marker or use your buttons to take their boons at the right time, in the right place. You can tie that back to what I said about Firebrands and Scourges in my first post 🙂 .

 

These are just more reasons why the mode needs a bit of a rebirth so we don't just go through the motions anymore.

 

Alot of this also ties into what Kash said. There are certainly alot of tools available and things to do, people simply don't.

 

Some are tired of leading, others have never tried learning and all these years of guild-hate has starved out the middle line.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, displayname.8315 said:

Good guilds, like actual good guilds have pretty much always run over inexperienced pugs.  People gunna get one pushed and never really learn the game.  Guilds gunna private tag cuz they can't carry hard enough, hide your shame. 

 

And it's still an uplevel game but you can only see that in your own squad now.  Poor uplevels getting rekt bring back uplevel markers so we can be chivalrous. 

 

What I'm saying is the boon balling widens that gap between pugs and guilds, guilds enforce it of their members to run those roles,  and will run it more effectively. This makes it harder on commanders to just run pug groups because now they have to make the same demands of the pugs to take on groups like that, the same pugs that you say are inexperienced, and probably haven't joined those guilds because they want to run what they want to play on their time, not what is demanded. On top of which if they don't perform well and after a wipe or two they lose a lot of the pugs following.

 

There's been plenty of times I've seen pugs and even other guild groups not bother with the heavy boon ball groups, they do a fight or two and then leave the map. There's no point commanding against groups like that, it can be even much more frustrating when you don't have that support, and yes that existed before with guards needed in every group, it's just way more demanding these days on what you need to function, firebrand, scrapper, boon stripper, mass stealth.

 

I think this is the bigger reason why we don't have dozens of commanders tagging up every day to fight, much more is needed to handle those groups than before, and not simply because you need firebrand to function as a commander.

[subversiontwo.7501]

42 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

What I'm saying is the boon balling widens that gap between pugs and guilds, guilds enforce it of their members to run those roles,  and will run it more effectively. This makes it harder on commanders to just run pug groups because now they have to make the same demands of the pugs to take on groups like that, the same pugs that you say are inexperienced, and probably haven't joined those guilds because they want to run what they want to play on their time, not what is demanded. On top of which if they don't perform well and after a wipe or two they lose a lot of the pugs following.

And what I think both of us are telling you is that those "boon balls" have always existed and it is rather the comparative average quality of pickup groups that has declined. The gap is larger today, not because the entry level guilds have gotten better, but because there are fewer guild-born players in pickups (because there are fewer guild-born players in the mode overall) and because commanders mostly go through the motions due to that and other reasons.

[Gorem.8104]

I tried tagging up before, no one joined, the usual tag  tags up, insta 50 squad. That's the difference I see. 

 

There's almost 0 reason to tag these days unless you are a player who has been tagging for years already and fill a slot that a tag has no already filled. Even if a map is full, and there is no tags on the map, newbie tags I see often get maybe one person joining them. Stuck at spawn? someone tags up, no one joins them, I even join on them to test and check it out, and realise they are tagged but alone, surrounded by 50 people not in any group. Yet if you join an old tag, its already full. 

 

Seems like, essentially, you need to persevere with tagging, do it for years and then you are able to easily pull a group in, and do the exact thing you would have done years ago, only are able to since people are actually following you. I'm hoping alliances fixes this issue, as it will be a much more tight nit group as you will get to know everyone in your alliance regardless of you being tagged or not. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

18 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Seems like, essentially, you need to persevere with tagging, do it for years and then you are able to easily pull a group in, and do the exact thing you would have done years ago, only are able to since people are actually following you. I'm hoping alliances fixes this issue, as it will be a much more tight nit group as you will get to know everyone in your alliance regardless of you being tagged or not. 

It's evident that you didn't want to bother with all the other (leghty) replies in this thread before posting. It has little to nothing to do with time alone. You get reputation and popularity with impression and success. You get success by gathering support from friends who you do not need to impress or for whome you need no reputation.

 

Like I said earlier, I can't think of anyone who reputably got 'good' by preservering alone. If anyone like that exists they are a sharp exception.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I tried tagging up before, no one joined, the usual tag  tags up, insta 50 squad. That's the difference I see. 

 

There's almost 0 reason to tag these days unless you are a player who has been tagging for years already and fill a slot that a tag has no already filled. Even if a map is full, and there is no tags on the map, newbie tags I see often get maybe one person joining them. Stuck at spawn? someone tags up, no one joins them, I even join on them to test and check it out, and realise they are tagged but alone, surrounded by 50 people not in any group. Yet if you join an old tag, its already full. 

 

Seems like, essentially, you need to persevere with tagging, do it for years and then you are able to easily pull a group in, and do the exact thing you would have done years ago, only are able to since people are actually following you. I'm hoping alliances fixes this issue, as it will be a much more tight nit group as you will get to know everyone in your alliance regardless of you being tagged or not. 

Along with the mention of pickups, there's a discrepancy with pugs.  A number of them will either be complacent or just inexperienced with the build they're trying to work on while some know what they're doing but don't want to be locked into a squad and be that player dot off tag. I'll join a squad sometimes when a tag invites for awhile but I float around and check things out a lot and I don't want to get yelled at, plus I don't play any builds people are looking for. Still, even though I rarely join a tag, I'm almost always there covering it. I just don't want to bother people with Alerts and stuff I use when floating around with guild.

 

The game is in a weird place right now but I feel like a lot of new players lately have been savvy enough with this kind of game in general, there's a chance to hit a new normal at some point. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by kash.9213

[displayname.8315]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

This makes it harder on commanders to just run pug groups because now they have to make the same demands of the pugs to take on groups like that, the same pugs that you say are inexperienced, and probably haven't joined those guilds because they want to run what they want to play on their time

It may have seemed more even but you don't really see anyone repping guilds in pick up groups anymore.  Whereas in days of teamspeak you would have people from guilds playing with the commander and chatting with them, working with them.  Guild leaders would often pugmand with cross guild groups, everyone just wanted to log in a fight and shoot the breeze. 

 

Just look at some of these rando groups, all private bank guilds, PvE tourists, just tunnel visioning off into the distance.  Watch the zerg tail when the comm moves its hilarious.

[CrimsonRise.7650]

3 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I tried tagging up before, no one joined, the usual tag  tags up, insta 50 squad. That's the difference I see. 

 

There's almost 0 reason to tag these days unless you are a player who has been tagging for years already and fill a slot that a tag has no already filled. Even if a map is full, and there is no tags on the map, newbie tags I see often get maybe one person joining them. Stuck at spawn? someone tags up, no one joins them, I even join on them to test and check it out, and realise they are tagged but alone, surrounded by 50 people not in any group. Yet if you join an old tag, its already full. 

 

 

I've seen random ppt chatmanders on here causing queues, which may be because it's still during the summer holidays, but the queues die down, because they can hardly fight anything organized during prime time.

 

It's not 350g well spent honestly.

Edited August 21, 2021 by CrimsonNeonite.1048

[ArchonWing.9480]

People commanding on FB is the result of having a proper comp, not the cause. I mean Firebrand isn't the best at cleanses or heals by any means.  It just looks that way, but in reality scrappers, warriors, and eles are also doing the lifting and to be honest as long as you are in the middle of all that crap, you will be fine. I mean obviously not having firebrands is not a good idea, but it doesn't always have to be the pin if you have the proper setup.

 

It is true that being able to control when stability is cast makes it much more convenient for you, but if you have someone else that can do it, it works all the same.

 

What is true is that in 2021, you cannot expect to tag up and lead a blob. What you'll need is a solid enough core to form all the support and also be a little selective with who you take in and make sure everyone's on the same page and not running w/e. And that's probably the biggest barrier of anything else-- getting people willing to play for the group and aren't going to just bolt when they got what they wanted. You honestly have to filter out the later, unfortunately.

 

The reason why most fail is a lack of awareness and assuming your teammates are psychic.

 

They think all the randos have the means to push through an enemy like their core comp and then start yelling at everyone for not pushing for them.

 

Truth is, if there is nobody around, people will follow you. But you probably need a good core and the proper social skills to get anything started.

 

tl;dr join a guild and you'll have all the resources you need.

Edited August 21, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Rod.6581]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:01 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which is a self imposed barrier.

 

This!

You must be a FB to be a good commander is a myth.

The truth is you must be a good commander to be a good commander.

[Amarok.2147]

Oh god I'm a potato on FB 😂 I tried it, not for me. I do command on a chrono or my rev. I do it because I feel comfortable surviving and I can control the tempo of the way my group fights with these classes. 

 

First and foremost, the role of a commander is to stay alive and control big things that can alter the outcome of a fight. Their subgroups role is to also keep the commander alive and mostly full of support like a scourge, a firebrand, and a medi scrap. That would be ideal to keep you alive as long as they're all doing their part. The tough part about starting as a commander is having a starting point. You tag up, you fail, people leave. 

 

I suggest find a commander from your server discord that tags up when you play. Talk to them about following them and learning to command. Start playing with them in your Commanding class and build. Ask them questions after fights and learn why they did what they did. Then eventually ask to take on some fights and pass the tag back and forth until you yourself can be a proper commander. Other than that, most things will come from experience like reacting to portal bombs, stealth, split pushes, etc

[Chaba.5410]

The main problem with firebrand is that, compared to dragonhunter and core guardian, it's just not as fun to play.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Honestly after many years of commanding PUGs, mostly at off-hours:

1. The biggest barrier of entry is that if your squad doesn't already have a decent amount of players, new players won't stay, or they leave after the first wipe. This means your squad can't get players to retain players.

2. The biggest problem with PUG commanding in general is that offensive skills and support skills both mostly affect five players. This extremely favors highly organised group play, not only due to class compositions and sorting, but because defense is always as strong as offense, which puts the less organised groups at a disadvantage. Its possible for five super organised players to completely dominate 10-15 PUGs, sometimes even more.

 

Simple solutions that would get a head start on fixing these problems:

- Reduce squad sizes to a maximum of 25 players in WvW, requiring multiple squads for coverage even on a single map.

- Limit each map to one tag per guild, similar to claiming, so guilds don't just have mulitple lieutenants tag up to replicate the old behavior of megasquads.

- Don't allow tags with more than 10 players (larger than a raid squad) to hide their tag.

- Change all offensive skills to a 10 target cap, while keeping support skills at a 5 target cap. This makes it harder to boonball deathtrain and strengthens tactics like clouding. This has successfully lead to zerg-busting in other games.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[displayname.8315]

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The main problem with firebrand is that, compared to dragonhunter and core guardian, it's just not as fun to play.

I didn't play clerics much either in EQ/WoW but people enjoy them.  When you get fast at the tomes and know when to use them properly you carry super hard.

 

@Amarok.2147Stop playing D&D and go hardcore WvW pls and TY.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

honestly, entry barrier should not be lowered. getting a tag is yet supereasy. sadly. then again, u can be clueless at most ranks, if all u ever done is to ppt

 

it's imo really problematic if the lead isn't a very bulky specs, as he will be very easy to snipe down and kill

 

best one is simply firebrand, since it can create engages like no other specs. scrapper would technically be good, but has to do a lot in a good group to keep things alive, hard to command beneath that. chronomancer is fine lead as well. these three are classic supports and therefore should be used to lead any group, as they provide the most things that a group can want

 

theoretically possible are bulky staff necro/scourges, tempests eles or bulky spellbreakers ... if nothing else goes and its not a good group around, also rather weirder examples like core guard or ventari rev. not recommended really, but at least they won't just die within a second under pressure.

 

overall, u see these days too many "commanders" who are absolute newbies to figthing. ppt leads of the older days (i didn't play there but i learnt to know some of these guys during my years playing) absolutely destroy the newer leads. i mean, ofc, if ur class has to struggle like crazy to stay alive and running away, the pugsquad will completely shatter quick

 

a tag ideally needs to give players directions. its an issue that even that doesn't work at all anymore with 50/70 people on full maps often doing just random things.

 

like u tag, get 20 ppl, 15 are rather close around tag, and then the 40ish cloud runnings around wildly left and right. and loses to the 50ish cloud of the enemy, as they brilliantly chose to fight them at enemy territory, where enemy has +400/800 stat buffs. big smart. tag cannot do anything anymore then.

 

like, for any group of 25 fighting 50+ clouders is hard work these days, bc everything is very bulky, nothing takes good damage from bomb, since bomb dmg got nerfs so absurdly down. it is very tiresome and not motivating to grind against a cloud, who just avoids anything to not fight you.

 

which is the issue within the system. i really don't want to play anymore with people who just don't want to fight. they want ppt karma and WXP, but neglect the main aspect of Wvw as a largescale gamemode. some play Wvw as if it was some kinda Ego-Shooter style game - while idk if in these u need 5-6 players for single player kills, i suppose even that ain't the case.

 

 

[T G.7496]

I've read the OP a couple of times now and, unless I'm just that tired and stupid, I'm not sure I really understand what you feel are the barriers to commanding beyond the misapprehension that a commander has to play Firebrand.

 

The only real barrier to being a commander is the price of a tag.

 

The barriers to being a *good* commander are many and various, and are largely to do with non-game mechanic things like leadership skills situational awareness, multitasking, time-played/experience.

 

Being able to play firebrand well is way down the list and pretty optional.

 

That said, being able to switch class and return to the front of the same map queue, within a reasonable time frame, might be a QoL improvement for everyone, not just Commanders.

[LetoII.3782]

The big problem is blob stacking is mind-numbingly boring, I'm amazed theres even the few left that there is willing to do it. 2 years of bot life was plenty for me, if it ever comes down to blob or gtfo I'll be elsewhere.. Got a ssd chock full of software.

[Dawdler.8521]

11 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

it is very tiresome and not motivating to grind against a cloud, who just avoids anything to not fight you.

Yeah, thats totally why the cloud need to bring 50+ to beat you.

 

So they can avoid fighting you.

 

Checks out.