Nerf Necromancer

[Burial.1958]

Did reroll on necro yesterday and gosh is this class broken.

[mortrialus.3062]

On 9/30/2021 at 12:13 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

They're afraid to nerf it because if they cut the shroud mitigation too deep, we will be back to necros being focused down before they can even use their skills. I don't think they want to destroy the core, just the annoying results of stacking that core with things that are low effort.

I'm fine with that, but it needs to be in tandem with some buffing. A little sustain on damage oriented classes to help them deliver bursts that threaten the necro if they are mindful of weakness would be ideal here.

 

No.

If someone flings themselves into the middle of a team fight with zero regard for positioning, defensive cooldowns, their enemies' offensive cooldowns, and are too dumb to press anything other than F1, don't even have their dodge keys bound, they deserve to die and fast. 

Necro is like thief in that no amount of nerfs could possibly make them truly useless. Its nearly impossible to image what it would actually take to genuinely kill necro. 

Also not a fan of this "Don't nerf necro.  Just buff warrior so that warrior can be the only class that deals with necros and that'll fix everything" thing going around.  Necros that get completely outskilled need to be more easily handled by more classes than just warriors.

[mortrialus.3062]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:19 AM, Pati.2438 said:

How about this: Buff warrior so they aren't trash Tier and necro got finaly a class that hard counter them? 

 

 

Anet: nah warrior is good as it is lets nerf it at all

Not a fan of this "Don't nerf necro.  Just buff warrior so that warrior can be the only class that deals with necros and that'll fix everything" thing going around.  Necros that get completely outskilled need to be more easily handled by more classes than just warriors.

Spellbreaker and core never really countered necromancer. I don't know where people are getting this from that somehow warrior's fall is responsible for necromancer's rise. The classes that were hard countering and bullying necros were deadeyes, rangers, soulbeast, FA weaver, power and condi mesmers.  Basically ranged that could avoid the constant point blank weakness spam on shroud. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

. I don't know where people are getting this from that somehow warrior's fall is responsible for necromancer's rise.

Nobody's saying that, I just want warriors to be useful for something that isn't slowly losing sidenode, and since they can output a lot of CC we can kill two birds with one stone.

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

 Just buff warrior

You can also buff ele, idrc which gets done first. It doesn't get playtime either. The point I'm personally trying to make (since I fall into this camp, probably) is that if you're going to nerf a trouble class, you can usually do that cleanly by buffing the classes that don't see play first in the ways that allow them to most directly challenge the trouble class, then adjust the class itself if it continues to outperform everything.

Think about it. You said:

Quote

 The classes that were hard countering and bullying necros were deadeyes, rangers, soulbeast, FA weaver, power and condi mesmers.  

Do you want to buff any of those right now? Most of those, except FA weaver, see play now, or could easily take to bullying other things if you buff them too indulgently. You want deadeyes running around instead?

Necro -is- overperforming, but this whack-a-mole balance direction is ridiculous. And with 9 more specs to balance, and us waiting years to see things we like to play probably resurface now, It would be better to look at what isnt showing up in pvp and encourage people to use it to solve their current problems. It's going to take even longer to get meaningful balance passes when EoD drops. We need some direction instead of nerfing the problem until it mechanically -cannot- be played viably, hitting all the fringe builds that aren't as problematic as collateral (and send them to the shadow realm of unviability in turn), only for the people who were bandwagoning and didn't actually main the class beyond its cheese build to move on to the next big thing. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Myror.7521]

@mortrialus.3062 I think like this cause warrior Was supposed to hard counter necro since Release. A hard cc class with good meele fighting things against a aoe Team fight class with low stability. How ever things changes and thats good BUT now days warrior is in the badest state since HoT Release (at that time the only variable build Was sword shield gs warrior) and necro get Tons of shroud life plus a field that now defend them against projectiles so ranged classes are also less dangerous.

 

Other said instead of nerfing a class whst about buff a counter class instead back to good?

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nobody's saying that, I just want warriors to be useful for something that isn't slowly losing sidenode, and since they can output a lot of CC we can kill two birds with one stone.

You can also buff ele, idrc which gets done first. It doesn't get playtime either. The point I'm personally trying to make (since I fall into this camp, probably) is that if you're going to nerf a trouble class, you can usually do that cleanly by buffing the classes that don't see play first in the ways that allow them to most directly challenge the trouble class, then adjust the class itself if it continues to outperform everything.

Think about it. You said:

Do you want to buff any of those right now? Most of those, except FA weaver, see play now, or could easily take to bullying other things if you buff them too indulgently. You want deadeyes running around instead?

Necro -is- overperforming, but this whack-a-mole balance direction is ridiculous. And with 9 more specs to balance, and us waiting years to see things we like to play probably resurface now, It would be better to look at what isnt showing up in pvp and encourage people to use it to solve their current problems. It's going to take even longer to get meaningful balance passes when EoD drops. We need some direction instead of nerfing the problem until it mechanically -cannot- be played viably, hitting all the fringe builds that aren't as problematic as collateral (and send them to the shadow realm of unviability in turn), only for the people who were bandwagoning and didn't actually main the class beyond its cheese build to move on to the next big thing. 

It would be neigh impossible to nerf necromancer to the point where it is not viable in PvP.  It's like thief in that it is irreplaceable.  Nothing else can do what it does. 

Warrior has at least as long as I remember, never countered necro.  So the idea that if we buff warrior until it does counter necro doesn't solve anything because at that point you'll be looking at god tier warriors running around and necros that overperform the remaining 7 classes with no other competition. You would need to make warrior stronger than it was premegabalance to hard counter necro whose defenses were largely untouched by megabalance and weren't getting rolled by warriors back then either. 

It's the shroud in a post megabalance world and it will continue to be that until it's addressed.  When most builds are running around with their main damage skill being a 4-6k crits on a 6-12 second cooldown, being able to hop into shroud with 50% damage reduction that gives effectively an expendable 32,000 expendable health bar might as well be 15+ seconds of mesmer distortion given how few things can actually punch through that in under that amount of time.  Not to mention just having a 28k normal healthbar waiting underneath that. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

It would be neigh impossible to nerf necromancer to the point where it is not viable in PvP.  It's like thief in that it is irreplaceable.  Nothing else can do what it does. 

Not true.

Reapers, Scourges and Core necros each had a long stretch of being unviable in pvp.

There have been lots of necro threads before the megabalance patch about them complaining about being useless vs pistol thieves and rangers, or melting if they so much as dared as approach a point that didn't have an ongoing fight taking place on it, or getting nuked by revenants leaping through walls. 

I don't agree with the rhetoric here. Yes, they're overtuned; but being difficult to kill isn't an irreplaceable feature particular only to necro (thus warranting them getting special attention). Almost every class in the game has had a spec that has held this position over the past couple of years.

Quote

Warrior has at least as long as I remember, never countered necro.  So the idea that if we buff warrior until it does counter necro doesn't solve anything because at that point you'll be looking at god tier warriors running around and necros that overperform the remaining 7 classes with no other competition. You would need to make warrior stronger than it was premegabalance to hard counter necro whose defenses were largely untouched by megabalance and weren't getting rolled by warriors back then either. 

No you won't.

You don't need to buff them to god tier for them to be balanced. 

I think good warriors would be able to address this with just a handful of sustain cooldown reductions. You don't even need to buff their damage or make any major mechanic changes. If you take:

5 seconds off the cooldown for endure pain

10 seconds off the cd of berserker stance (which still ignores weakness)

5 seconds off the CD for balanced stance

5 seconds off the cd for shield stance

That would go a long way to allow them to put themselves in situations where they can make quick work of necros without changing significantly how you approach fighting them, or their power levels in general.

I don't play ele very well, but they need some combat work in general, so I'll leave it to an ele main for specifics there.  

Quote

50% damage reduction 

Granted, this is the main issue. I am not disagreeing that this is probably a major oversight, and that it needs to be addressed, but consider that balancing this way affects every necro build now and going forward that isn't Harbinger, and Anet has a tendency for nuking,

The balancing dev(s) are probably terrified of doing that, given how most  balancing efforts for necros up to this point have been yoyos of them making some aggressive change, then backtracking and leaving necro as a whole generally worse than it was originally for pvp. First with spectrals, then with wells, then signets, etc. 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Not true.

Reapers, Scourges and Core necros each had a long stretch of being unviable in pvp.

There have been lots of necro threads before the megabalance patch about them complaining about being useless vs pistol thieves and rangers, or melting if they so much as dared as approach a point that didn't have an ongoing fight taking place on it, or getting nuked by revenants leaping through walls. 

I don't agree with the rhetoric here. Yes, they're overtuned; but being difficult to kill isn't an irreplaceable feature particular only to necro (thus warranting them getting special attention). Almost every class in the game has had a spec that has held this position over the past couple of years.

Yeah no I am going to stop you right here, that is not necros being unviable and useless.  That is necros being the absolute biggest complainers in the game regardless of the state of their class.  Necros were a constant, very popular fixture in ranked from the bottom of gold aaaaaallll the way up to God of PvP and when MATs were launched, the amount of MATs they weren't on the winners was limited to genuinely probably less than around five vs the dozens they won. 

The only stretch scourge wasn't viable in PvP was the stretch where they lost self shade which was all told like a 9 month stretch and in that window both core and reaper were meta.  Reaper was strong and its biggest issue was being hardcountered by Scourge, not by anything else.  WP solo queued to legendary on reaper before reaper got quickness in reaper shroud for crying out loud. 

Heck some of the top threads right now are necros complaining about their state in PvE right now, where they are currently enjoying being absurdly dominant alongside Firebrand right now in all forms of PvE content to a degree they've never seen before in the game and they're still whining.

Necro in some form wasn't just strong before megabalance.  Some version of necro was meta before megabalance and they're only stronger now.  Don't confuse necros being the game's most unrelenting pessimists for being remotely representative of their state in the game. 

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No you won't.

You don't need to buff them to god tier for them to be balanced. 

I think good warriors would be able to address this with just a handful of sustain cooldown reductions. You don't even need to buff their damage or make any major mechanic changes. If you take:

5 seconds off the cooldown for endure pain

10 seconds off the cd of berserker stance (which still ignores weakness)

5 seconds off the CD for balanced stance

5 seconds off the cd for shield stance

That would go a long way to allow them to put themselves in situations where they can make quick work of necros without changing significantly how you approach fighting them, or their power levels in general.

I don't play ele very well, but they need some combat work in general, so I'll leave it to an ele main for specifics there.  

You don't need to buff warriors to god tier to make warriors balanced and see more use, sure. 

You would need to make warrior god tier to make them hard counter necro, which is currently god tier.  Before the megabalance warriors or spellbreakers were not a hard counter to necros.  Would better warriors kill necros?  Sure.  Genuine hardcounter?  Absolutely not. 

Necros defensively are not weaker than they were before megabalance to a significant degree.  So you would need to make warriors stronger offensively than they were prior to megabalance in order to counter necros who have maintained a very similar level of power to their pre-megabalance selves. 

Your changes might be generally nice and see warriors bump up in usage in PvP a bit.  But they won't make warriors "The necro counters" the way thieves counter mesmers, or condition mesmers being able to casually dunk any power rev that tries to 1v1 them.  Because warriors have never been "the necro counter".   They weren't then when they could arcing slice and every skill on rampage crit for 12k and they aren't now.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Granted, this is the main issue. I am not disagreeing that this is probably a major oversight, and that it needs to be addressed, but consider that balancing this way affects every necro build now and going forward that isn't Harbinger, and Anet has a tendency for nuking,

The balancing dev(s) are probably terrified of doing that, given how most  balancing efforts for necros up to this point have been yoyos of them making some aggressive change, then backtracking and leaving necro as a whole generally worse than it was originally for pvp. First with spectrals, then with wells, then signets, etc. 

 Minionmancer is winning MATs.  Minionmancer now has 2 back to back monthly automated tournament wins.  This is a point of no return for balance.  We are well past the time were just nerfing the fringes of the build until it rounds out is fine.  Nuking is necessary at this point.  Minionmancer being META is the single worst and most embarassing state balance has been in since the original Chronobunker.  The balance team should feel humiliated.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Leonidrex.5649]

29 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Yeah no I am going to stop you right here, that is not necros being unviable and useless.  That is necros being the absolute biggest complainers in the game regardless of the state of their class.  Necros were a constant, very popular fixture in ranked from the bottom of gold aaaaaallll the way up to God of PvP and when MATs were launched, the amount of MATs they weren't on the winners was limited to genuinely probably less than around five vs the dozens they won. 

The only stretch scourge wasn't viable in PvP was the stretch where they lost self shade which was all told like a 9 month stretch and in that window both core and reaper were meta.  Reaper was strong and its biggest issue was being hardcountered by Scourge, not by anything else.  WP solo queued to legendary on reaper before reaper got quickness in reaper shroud for crying out loud. 

Heck some of the top threads right now are necros complaining about their state in PvE right now, where they are currently enjoying being absurdly dominant alongside Firebrand right now in all forms of PvE content to a degree they've never seen before in the game and they're still whining.

Necro in some form wasn't just strong before megabalance.  Some version of necro was meta before megabalance and they're only stronger now.  Don't confuse necros being the game's most unrelenting pessimists for being remotely representative of their state in the game. 

You don't need to buff warriors to god tier to make warriors balanced and see more use, sure. 

You would need to make warrior god tier to make them hard counter necro, which is currently god tier.  Before the megabalance warriors or spellbreakers were not a hard counter to necros.  Would better warriors kill necros?  Sure.  Genuine hardcounter?  Absolutely not. 

Necros defensively are not weaker than they were before megabalance to a significant degree.  So you would need to make warriors stronger offensively than they were prior to megabalance in order to counter necros who have maintained a very similar level of power to their pre-megabalance selves. 

Your changes might be generally nice and see warriors bump up in usage in PvP a bit.  But they won't make warriors "The necro counters" the way thieves counter mesmers, or condition mesmers being able to casually dunk any power rev that tries to 1v1 them.  Because warriors have never been "the necro counter".   They weren't then when they could arcing slice and every skill on rampage crit for 12k and they aren't now.

 Minionmancer is winning MATs.  Minionmancer now has 2 back to back monthly automated tournament wins.  This is a point of no return for balance.  We are well past the time were just nerfing the fringes of the build until it rounds out is fine.  Nuking is necessary at this point.  Minionmancer being META is the single worst and most embarassing state balance has been in since the original Chronobunker.  The balance team should feel humiliated.

 

I remember pre-feb necros complaing how bad their class is, and despite that there were usually 2-3 necros per game, almost always necro in each team in mat. 2-3 meta builds. and I just sat there and wonder what these people have in their heads.

[mortrialus.3062]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I remember pre-feb necros complaing how bad their class is, and despite that there were usually 2-3 necros per game, almost always necro in each team in mat. 2-3 meta builds. and I just sat there and wonder what these people have in their heads.

Necromancers all are perpetually doing an intense Edgar Allen Poe roleplay and never break character.

[Okhu.7948]

Necromancers consistently complain about being underpowered even though they aren't so that they receive buffs. 2s are awful with necromancers around I can't think of another class more terrible to see in the off seasons than necromancers.

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Yeah no I am going to stop you right here, that is not necros being unviable and useless.  That is necros being the absolute biggest complainers in the game regardless of the state of their class.  Necros were a constant, very popular fixture in ranked from the bottom of gold aaaaaallll the way up to God of PvP and when MATs were launched, the amount of MATs they weren't on the winners was limited to genuinely probably less than around five vs the dozens they won. 

The only stretch scourge wasn't viable in PvP was the stretch where they lost self shade which was all told like a 9 month stretch and in that window both core and reaper were meta.  Reaper was strong and its biggest issue was being hardcountered by Scourge, not by anything else.  WP solo queued to legendary on reaper before reaper got quickness in reaper shroud for crying out loud. 

Heck some of the top threads right now are necros complaining about their state in PvE right now, where they are currently enjoying being absurdly dominant alongside Firebrand right now in all forms of PvE content to a degree they've never seen before in the game and they're still whining.

Necro in some form wasn't just strong before megabalance.  Some version of necro was meta before megabalance and they're only stronger now.  Don't confuse necros being the game's most unrelenting pessimists for being remotely representative of their state in the game. 

You don't need to buff warriors to god tier to make warriors balanced and see more use, sure. 

You would need to make warrior god tier to make them hard counter necro, which is currently god tier.  Before the megabalance warriors or spellbreakers were not a hard counter to necros.  Would better warriors kill necros?  Sure.  Genuine hardcounter?  Absolutely not. 

Necros defensively are not weaker than they were before megabalance to a significant degree.  So you would need to make warriors stronger offensively than they were prior to megabalance in order to counter necros who have maintained a very similar level of power to their pre-megabalance selves. 

Your changes might be generally nice and see warriors bump up in usage in PvP a bit.  But they won't make warriors "The necro counters" the way thieves counter mesmers, or condition mesmers being able to casually dunk any power rev that tries to 1v1 them.  Because warriors have never been "the necro counter".   They weren't then when they could arcing slice and every skill on rampage crit for 12k and they aren't now.

 Minionmancer is winning MATs.  Minionmancer now has 2 back to back monthly automated tournament wins.  This is a point of no return for balance.  We are well past the time were just nerfing the fringes of the build until it rounds out is fine.  Nuking is necessary at this point.  Minionmancer being META is the single worst and most embarassing state balance has been in since the original Chronobunker.  The balance team should feel humiliated.

 

"Nonono, can't you see, this video clearly shows that LB DH is OP." <- a necro main, probably

[Myror.7521]

@mortrialus.3062 So you said warrior where never a hard counter for necro? What are they them for you? Before that clown Fiesta nerfs of anet to warriors (couldnt call it something Else since they nerf litterly everything that warrior standing for to nothingness), warrior was dealing damage on cc while using big ccs in their builds while we all know that range classes OR big cc classes are those ones that could kill a necro pretty ezy (range classes cause of not mutch reflections or range defence and cc cause of no Stability and cause necro was supposed to be slower than warrior allready). So yea warrior was supposed to hard counter necro BUT actually warrior is pretty mutch not warrior anymore (well all it actually get is decent cc. Outside of that nothing mutch .... damage is garbage defence is garbage hell even their movement skills are garbage)

[BlackTruth.6813]

You can't say that Necro has had times where it was "unviable" because if a Necro plus's you, most of the time you'd be dead. They weren't bad at holding point and 1v1s either.

 

Fear chains, high effective hp, and some builds having obnoxious dodge bait + instant cast, AND YOU HAVE Z-AXIS TELEPORTS FOR A TANKY CLASS.

 

Necro was LITERALLY warrior but more braindead and easier to play at times because their "combo" was easier to land and they were tankier even if you considered warrior stances.

 

Necro would be the easiest class in the game if it wasn't for Guardian and Ranger existing. At least Mesmer had some respectable builds even tho meta Mesmer was always brain damaged instant cast evade spam. Necro on the other hand wasn't bad at holding point AND had a braindead 100-0 combo because its a tanky instant cast class.

Necromancer is literally the reason why YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME SUGGEST INSTANT CASTS TO FIX WARRIOR ISSUES.

Edited October 5, 2021 by BlackTruth.6813

[Spellhunter.9675]

Everyone saying necro ALWAYS was meta are prob gold plebs, where people cannot do damage. xD

[Arheundel.6451]

I won't bother to join the "nerf crusade" about necro as literally I don't care anymore.....BUT.......anybody who claims necro were at any point unviable .....should be publicly singled out.

Necros haave been an overbearing presence in all game modes since the Dhuumfire patch and that was 7 years ago and at the same time they nerfed Diamond skin on eles as...poor necro mains...we can't have a hardcounter for such a "difficult to play" class

P.S that was the time I started to play other professions too, was fun indeed to bully necros on LB dh, LB ranger, core warrior bull's rush....but alas everything has been nerfed to hell...and ofc the overbearing condi spam point blank BS of necro has not been diminished in any way, if anything it got worst.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I won't bother to join the "nerf crusade" about necro as literally I don't care anymore.....BUT.......anybody who claims necro were at any point unviable .....should be publicly singled out.

Necros haave been an overbearing presence in all game modes since the Dhuumfire patch and that was 7 years ago and at the same time they nerfed Diamond skin on eles as...poor necro mains...we can't have a hardcounter for such a "difficult to play" class

P.S that was the time I started to play other professions too, was fun indeed to bully necros on LB dh, LB ranger, core warrior bull's rush....but alas everything has been nerfed to hell...and ofc the overbearing condi spam point blank BS of necro has not been diminished in any way, if anything it got worst.

 

 

Nec have been viable for years i don't know who is spreading rumors. In fact necros are better than ever.

Man reapers and core are everywhere in SPVP and its been like that for a bit and it became even better after the damage nerfs.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Axl.8924

[mortrialus.3062]

Seriously, nerf necromancer already. What the heck are you waiting for? 

https://imgur.com/d1H9ntX

40% necromancer representation.  Like... maybe that is telling everyone something, maybe? 

Edited October 22, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[mortrialus.3062]

https://i.imgur.com/TN4KzlH.png

Another game that is 40% necromancer. kittening do something already. 

[Axl.8924]

I don't know who put confusion sign i was saying that nec has been viable for a while in pve and pvp and nec hasn't been not viable for quite a bit. Reaper even got better in pve and since the damage nerfs reaper and core have gotten more powerful.

[KrHome.1920]

People that claim that a shroud damage reduction will fix their issues when fighting necro will still lose to necros with a shroud that has 0% damage reduction. You are not losing to the class cause of damage reduction.

 

The whole trait design is balanced around the damage reduction and most is already trash. Non bunker necros are 100% unviable at competent skill levels and you want to nerf the main sustain mechanic to fix two builds and put the whole rest of the class into the trashcan. Have you ever fought a marauder core necro? Do you know how bad this is? Or a reaper or scourge that does actually use offensive traitlines in PvP? Even in WvW in full soldier gear soul reaping is mandatory cause the 50% reduction alone does not cut it.

[mortrialus.3062]

17 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

People that claim that a shroud damage reduction will fix their issues when fighting necro will still lose to necros with a shroud that has 0% damage reduction. You are not losing to the class cause of damage reduction.

 

The whole trait design is balanced around the damage reduction and most is already trash. Non bunker necros are 100% unviable at competent skill levels and you want to nerf the main sustain mechanic to fix two builds and put the whole rest of the class into the trashcan. Have you ever fought a marauder core necro? Do you know how bad this is? Or a reaper or scourge that does actually use offensive traitlines in PvP? Even in WvW in full soldier gear soul reaping is mandatory cause the 50% reduction alone does not cut it.

Nah.  Nipping the fact that they have 4x the effective health of other classes will have an impact. 

You keep blathering on, but necros are 40-60% of ranked games and minionmancer now has double MAT wins under its belt.  Drastic measures are necessary. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Morwath.9817]

27 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Nah.  Nipping the fact that they have 4x the effective health of other classes will have an impact. 

You keep blathering on, but necros are 40-60% of ranked games and minionmancer now has double MAT wins under its belt.  Drastic measures are necessary. 

 

Drastic measures? Drastic measures in balance caused this situation to begin with. No, we don't need anything drastic. We just need some buffs here and there for currently less viable specs, so they can compete with Necromancers. 

[ollbirtan.2915]

Just nerf everything! Give us sticks and loin cloths! 

Edited October 22, 2021 by ollbirtan.2915

[Bazsi.2734]

36 minutes ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

Just nerf everything! Give us sticks and loin cloths! 

You're right. Necro is fine. Glad to see a fellow minionmancer putting in work to keep the status quo.