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Saintgaroo or Bunny Saint build is Support Meta in WvW


Knighthonor.4061

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I call it Bunny Saint and Saintgaroo ūüôŹ for how much jumping and hopping it does in fights. But wow its straight up Meta support in WvW. Is this intentional? Will this quality be removed ūüėĒ in the next¬†alliteration of testing?

 

The Vindicator seem to be more marketed as a DPS spec, so I wonder if the support aspect of it could conflict with that goal. 

If so,  how should this be handled without going full nerf into a Ventari 1.5?

Edited by Knighthonor.4061
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6 minutes ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

I call it Bunny Saint and Saintgaroo ūüôŹ for how much jumping and hopping it does in fights. But wow its straight up Meta support in WvW. Is this intentional? Will this quality be removed ūüėĒ in the next¬†alliteration of testing?

 

The Vindicator seem to be more marketed as a DPS spec, so I wonder if the support aspect of it could conflict with that goal. 

If so,  how should this be handled without going full nerf into a Ventari 1.5?

Depends on how much damage you give up to do that, I guess? Healbrand and condibrand are both firebrands, but you don't expect a healbrand to do condibrand damage. Vindicator is clearly designed to at least have the potential to build for support, otherwise they would have made it actually all support rather than flipping between offensive and supporting skills.

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Sure, if you consider the barrier which has poor scaling (1550+0.5* healing power barrier and heal , so with 1500 healing power about 2.3K of barrier and healing). It really isn't a support because you don't have reliable burst healing without Ventari and a staff. It's similar to using Sand Cascade on scourges or a shout on a tactics warrior not specced for heals.

A one dodge barrier on impact where you can still be hit while in the air is not a suitable healing spec. The alliance skills , other than the meme urn  which is a potential death sentence, all have 0.22 heal coefficients (i.e. 1500 heal power = added 330 healing) with below 800 base heals.

I hope vindicator gets more DPS focused, as it is now it is only openworld PVE spec at best ( 5 target cleave GS): from what I've seen people haven't been able to break 31K on the PVE golem either. You'd think with two power weapons (GS has higher coefficients vs multiple targets) it should be able to do better than herald or renegade so probably the longer cooldown skills could have some damage added and the damage dodge can give more raw damage (not damage modifier) as a tradeoff for the long airborne duration.

At the very least it can be made similar to alacrity renegade before soulcleave nerf but with offensive/defensive boons (might, stability, vigor, protection on Awakening or with the Vassals of the Empire dodge, resistance are all accessible on core  rev anyway) and less potential heals.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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Bunny Saint, that's really cute. And yes, I agree that it is actually quite effective! I definitely wouldn't call it meta by any means, but I would say it is above the performance of heal Herald & Renegade. At least it has felt like that way for me (I feel I can keep allies alive better).

 

@Infusion.7149 the SV heal can heal ~2k/tick and even though the urn is a death sentence, it still can pump healing. The dodges are nothing to scoff at considering it can be a 4k heal and 2.3k barrier per dodge, and you can do a rotation like dodge > legend swap for energy proc > dodge > F2 > dodge while also double-rotating your SV skills for massive support. The legend actually has insane healing, honestly more than Ventari since one dodge will give you about the same value as one Natural Harmony. Even Tree Song @ 5 condis will heal for over 10k. Being able to heal while in SV means you can save more of your energy in Ventari for cleansing and using your bubble, which is really nice. 

 

Is it on the level of FB/Scrapper? Nah? Tempest? Nah. But it certainly is quite good and the most effective I have ever felt on a Rev in terms of pure support. You can swap Ventari out for Jalis of course for the roads & rites but SV/Ventari does actually feel legit nice despite the issues Ventari runs into.

 

But yeah, being CC'd mid-dodge feels absolutely horrible. 

 

@Knighthonor.4061the Saint's Shield dodge will 100% be nerfed because it allows for bunkering. I just hope that they increase coefficients on it (considering it is THE healing dodge) and other some of the other skills in order to make it more worthy to invest healing power. 

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42 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Bunny Saint, that's really cute. And yes, I agree that it is actually quite effective! I definitely wouldn't call it meta by any means, but I would say it is above the performance of heal Herald & Renegade. At least it has felt like that way for me (I feel I can keep allies alive better).

 

@Infusion.7149 the SV heal can heal ~2k/tick and even though the urn is a death sentence, it still can pump healing. The dodges are nothing to scoff at considering it can be a 4k heal and 2.3k barrier per dodge, and you can do a rotation like dodge > legend swap for energy proc > dodge > F2 > dodge while also double-rotating your SV skills for massive support. The legend actually has insane healing, honestly more than Ventari since one dodge will give you about the same value as one Natural Harmony. Even Tree Song @ 5 condis will heal for over 10k. Being able to heal while in SV means you can save more of your energy in Ventari for cleansing and using your bubble, which is really nice. 

 

Is it on the level of FB/Scrapper? Nah? Tempest? Nah. But it certainly is quite good and the most effective I have ever felt on a Rev in terms of pure support. You can swap Ventari out for Jalis of course for the roads & rites but SV/Ventari does actually feel legit nice despite the issues Ventari runs into.

 

But yeah, being CC'd mid-dodge feels absolutely horrible. 

 

@Knighthonor.4061the Saint's Shield dodge will 100% be nerfed because it allows for bunkering. I just hope that they increase coefficients on it (considering it is THE healing dodge) and other some of the other skills in order to make it more worthy to invest healing power. 

I think you're overselling it because Tree Song with 5 condis will only heal ~5K before any modifiers and the dodge is ~2K  heal and ~2K barrier (as opposed to 4K heal). You also don't have Tree Song always on tap which is a problem ; Urn is ~1K tooltip with minstrels. I checked about 10 minutes ago in Armistice Bastion (WVW rule set) restating everything to Minstrel and putting monk runes.


I'd like to see the offensive capability more tuned up as Greatsword is a 5 target power weapon and the utilities don't do much in the way of damage. Normad's Advance for example is ~1.5K tooltip in full zerk + scholar which is roughly what you get on GS3 or the traited Imperial Impact dodge. If there was more focus on weakness/prot/might/fury for example it could end up being decent in WVW in a damage role as a heralds usually bring fury+might+swiftness for the group but with superspeed being rampant you mainly want might + fury.

Regardless the ability to be CC-ed mid dodge is something we can all agree needs to go.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I think you're overselling it because Tree Song with 5 condis will only heal ~5K before any modifiers and the dodge is ~2K  heal and ~2K barrier (as opposed to 4K heal). You also don't have Tree Song always on tap which is a problem ; Urn is ~1K tooltip with minstrels. I checked about 10 minutes ago in Armistice Bastion (WVW rule set) restating everything to Minstrel and putting monk runes.


I'd like to see the offensive capability more tuned up as Greatsword is a 5 target power weapon and the utilities don't do much in the way of damage. Normad's Advance for example is ~1.5K tooltip in full zerk + scholar which is roughly what you get on GS3 or the traited Imperial Impact dodge. If there was more focus on weakness/prot/might/fury for example it could end up being decent in WVW in a damage role as a heralds usually bring fury+might+swiftness for the group but with superspeed being rampant you mainly want might + fury.

Regardless the ability to be CC-ed mid dodge is something we can all agree needs to go.

 

Well, this is indeed in WvW with full Minstrel's. Have been running 3/2/3 in Salv with Monk's/Transference. So yes, a lot of this is considering the outgoing healing modifiers, which is still a factor regardless. Are the coefficients weak? Absolutely, but that doesn't make the spec's potential itself weak in actual practice.

 

I don't disagree with you about the offensive capabilities, by the way. I am simply enjoying its surprising support capabilities while they are here. I fully agree that its offense should be tuned up and was surprised they leaned so heavy into the support aspect of this entire e-spec. At the same time, I do think it's disingenuous for others to say that both Herald & Renegade are "support" specs when they are hybridized just like this one. 

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6 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

it's disingenuous for others to say that both Herald & Renegade are "support" specs when they are hybridized just like this one

Herald - pretty much ‚Äúofficial‚ÄĚ support, I think

 

Shield as weapon + all mechanic about team-play, not solo performance 

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51 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

Herald - pretty much ‚Äúofficial‚ÄĚ support, I think

 

Shield as weapon + all mechanic about team-play, not solo performance 

Only healing that Herald has is from the regen from the heal skill and Shield. Everything else is boon support which can be equally as dangerous in WvW because of corrupts. 

Bunny Saint provides consistent barriers and healing.  The urn skill with full minstrel gear does a decent job as well. Not to many that cleanse skill may be better than ventari in cost effectiveness. 

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8 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Shame you can still be CC'd during those hops though isn't it? 

Sounds like a bug to me...

 

3 hours ago, Loules.8601 said:

Herald - pretty much ‚Äúofficial‚ÄĚ support, I think

 

Shield as weapon + all mechanic about team-play, not solo performance 

That might have been the original design, but in practice Herald is usually played as a selfish DPS spec that self-buffs and self-sustains and if any allies happen to be nearby then I guess they can have boons too. The problem, like power reaper and Quickness, is that its power budget solo is balanced around having easy access to those boons, so it doesn't get as much benefit from having those boons provided in an organised group.

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People tend to overestimate 2 things about Saint's Shield Vindicator in WvW.

1. It's not really a Vindicator build. It uses 1 trait/dodge from Vindicator and then avoids the rest. No Alliance legend and no GS most of the time. This was a testament for how bad everything else was. Including the other 2 "offensive" dodges. 

2. It was good for maybe the first 2-3 days. Than people learned how to CC even during the dodge, or right after, and GG. 

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35 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

People tend to overestimate 2 things about Saint's Shield Vindicator in WvW.

1. It's not really a Vindicator build. It uses 1 trait/dodge from Vindicator and then avoids the rest. No Alliance legend and no GS most of the time. This was a testament for how bad everything else was. Including the other 2 "offensive" dodges. 

2. It was good for maybe the first 2-3 days. Than people learned how to CC even during the dodge, or right after, and GG. 

 

1. Well sure if you are speaking in terms of a DPS build that is at the very least partially correct. Alliance felt worse on DPS builds for sure. However, this conversation is about a support Vindicator build. I played with both Alliance/Jalis and Alliance/Ventari and was partial to the Ventari variant. You could run Ventari/Jalis for sure but I found Alliance to be quite strong and I wouldnt want to swap it out tbh. I also preferred running GS as my secondary weapon because having a second mobile block is very strong, and when GS3 gets fixed, a 900 range dash will be wonderful as well. 

 

2. Well, I don't think it is fair to really say a build is bad based off what we can assume is a bug. Getting CC'd mid-dodge felt really horrible and whatnot, but I am trying not to factor that in considering it should be fixed. And yeah, they could clean up the aftercast/immob portion of the dodge for sure too; IIRC it is slower than a normal dodge which should not be the case. However, despite this I still found the build to be better than support Herald/Renegade. I was able to be considerably more aggressive with my playstyle which I found to be quite enjoyable. If you take Jalis you are quite resilient to CCs as the stunbreaks in Alliance are actually both very good. If you take Ventari...well that is moreso a Ventari issue than a Vindicator issue, so I wouldn't say Vindi is more CC-able since you have access to more dodges, more mobility, and a second mobile block.

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I think you are using "meta" a bit loose here. Ventari is already a solid individual support class in a 50 squad, maybe Vindicator brings some strong stuff to that. But it doesn't provide Stab, Aegis, quickness, super speed, condition conversion. So even if the healing or cleanse was on par with a Scrapper or Firebrand, it just won't replace them. So not "meta". 

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On 9/25/2021 at 4:43 PM, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Only healing that Herald has is from the regen from the heal skill and Shield. Everything else is boon support which can be equally as dangerous in WvW because of corrupts. 

Bunny Saint provides consistent barriers and healing.  The urn skill with full minstrel gear does a decent job as well. Not to many that cleanse skill may be better than ventari in cost effectiveness. 

There is one thing you are missing about herald. It's not a great wvw spec because of corrupts and spellbreaker winds, but for healing in pve, it's awesome. The thing you may not be aware of is that when you switch to ventari the f2 is also a pulsing 10 target heal along with the regen. Also there's a trait that gives additional 10 target healing every 3 seconds to anyone you apply a boon to. It's actually a really good choice to solo heal raids, but you then have to get ranger spirits from a soul beast which is quite hurtful to their dps, otoh if they are the 9th dps anyway that's not so bad.

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I tried out jalis/alliance with retribution 132, salvation 33(2/3), vind 213 with some pretty encouraging success.

 

You could sit in jalis and pump out damage reduction/stab while using your leap as the main source of healing (2.3k barrier, 4k heal). So long as you hit 5 targets with its large radius you can jump every 3.6s, down to every 3s with another 25% endurance regen from somewhere in your comp/gear.

 

Or swap to alliance to burst heal. with stacked healing modifiers the heal skill ticks for ~2k on 5 targets and can be cancelled when its almost finished to prevent it from rolling over. Tree song healed up to 8k on 5 targets, overall a great utility as it cleanses and allows you to jump twice in a row (jump>TS>jump) for a burst heal. The aoe stunbreak grants protection, always nice. And of course, everyone's least favorite, the urn- which when you can stack -% incoming damage modifiers is actually amazing since you effectively take 1% health damage a second while healing everyone around you for 2k/s- and you can still jump to heal with saints shield while it's active.

 

overall a lot of potential for support and dps vindicator in wvw, though it'll require a comp shift to incorporate it

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On 9/25/2021 at 5:50 PM, Loules.8601 said:

Herald - pretty much ‚Äúofficial‚ÄĚ support, I think

 

Shield as weapon + all mechanic about team-play, not solo performance 

 

I feel like you're trolling -- but it's a bit of a false equivalency that people keep in the echo chamber

 

Boon pulse to allies + healing, cleanse, & protection on optional offhand does not equal "official support" all those boons also apply to you....

 

It's hybrid, you can go full berserker or celestial, Herald/Shiro and still maintain 25 might, fury, swiftness on yourself easily with traits for quickness and skills for gap closers... (Meta power dps/roamer for PvP and WvW)

 

Or you can go Minstrels/Magi/Harrier, Herald/Ventari and pulse out Regen and protection.... (Non meta in pretty much every content 

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23 hours ago, hainese.9216 said:

 

I feel like you're trolling -- but it's a bit of a false equivalency that people keep in the echo chamber

 

Boon pulse to allies + healing, cleanse, & protection on optional offhand does not equal "official support" all those boons also apply to you....

 

It's hybrid, you can go full berserker or celestial, Herald/Shiro and still maintain 25 might, fury, swiftness on yourself easily with traits for quickness and skills for gap closers... (Meta power dps/roamer for PvP and WvW)

 

Or you can go Minstrels/Magi/Harrier, Herald/Ventari and pulse out Regen and protection.... (Non meta in pretty much every content 

 

 

The problem with Herald is it sucks as a support, when it's SUPPOSED to be the support spec, yet eclipsed by renegade as a support spec despite the fact renegade is designed to be a condition damage spec.

 

Vindicator is just a repetition of the same mistakes done with Herald. It's not a good thing. Stretching elite specs thing trying to cover all roles rarely works out well for the spec, whereas having more of the traits and mechanics dedicated toward customizing for a particular role works far better.

 

Anet is just terrible at dutifully balancing their game, balance patches come out once every blue moon, and when the changes do come out, they are marginal and ill thought out with no public test realm, and they rarely if ever adjust their patch notes they vomit out to player feedback.

 

So you get monstrosities like Renegade, Scourge, and Firebrand eclipsing all else because Anet doesn't bother to fix reaper, herald, weaver, chronomancer (support, which is what the spec should be, power should be virtuosos and mirage condi),  or soulbeast. Hell, even deadeye has its issues on its intended weapon set. Scrapper by some miracle was fixed nearly 5+ years later, it's really disgraceful how negligent the class balance and changes are in this game.

 

But it's because they have a skelenton crew in the class balance team, and they don't have a unified direction from a gameplay lead, just rotating project teams that abandon their predecessors' endeavors the moment they rotate in, so there's never any continuity.

Edited by Zenith.7301
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