Are Dragon Flyers going to an Imbalance?

[ceitic.6198]

Are Dragon Flyers going to cause an imbalance between players?

 

OK, this is a moan, but mainly expresses my disappointment that what was an excellently crafted and fair to all game has now become a two-tier one.

 

The top tier is for those with dragons and the like, who now have a major advantage over those who have to manage with a Rafter and it’s follow-ons. Yes, you may say, all players can eventually learn or buy their way to get the flying-mounts, but what happens then everyone wants to us their dragons – total chaos in the skies over Tyria?

Sure most players will be able to glide and jump using the mushrooms and jet streams to get to some of the higher levels - that’s good fun, but Flyers can easily get to some of the pretty inaccessible places that others have to spend hours of their precious playing hours trying to reach.

 

Good for you if you are now able to fly around [some would say posing on the backs of your splendid animal], but why haven’t the Game and Map Designers allowed for more alternative routes to achieve the same objectives.

 

Before anyone thinks here’s a moaning Newbie. I’m not, in fact I’ve been playing all sorts of games for over thirty-five years [Yeh! Yeh! That makes me sound like some ancient], this game I’ve been playing alongside a variation of of others games since it was published. Bought it on the strength of the original Four Guild Wars which could be inter-played with a strong background story to each Guild and interesting characters.

In my playing career [it feels like I spent as much time playing as dealing with real life and domestic issues], have been a game-tester, game modder and written a few game scrypts for friends.

Games played over the years include the first ever RPG -King’s Quest; the original series of Baldurs

Gate ; the original series of Neverwinter Nights and it’s DLCs : Most of the Star Wars since Jedi Knight 2 plus testing and playing SWTOR: the original Homeworld plus sequels; Freelancer: the excellent Divinity Original Sin series: the fun Fable; the best ever shooter RPG Quake Four: Deus Ex series: Dragon Age, all four games; the four Mass Effect; Skyrim; ESO and many, many others.

 

So it’s fair to say that I’ve been around the ‘gaming’ block a few times, and believe that games should follow the original maxim of Fun, Feasability and Fulfilment.

 

For me this basically wonderful game is not as fun and equal to all players as it was when it started out. It would be good to see some balanced playing for all participants, particularly for those of us have actually bought copies of it over the years.

 

Whatever your opinion is of this article, I wish you fun gaming. Ceitic

[Gibson.4036]

I found your post a little hard to follow, but I was just in Verdand Brink for the events daily, and found it much more efficient to jumping mushroom up to a plateau and glide into some of the many updrafts to get elevation than it was to fly my skyscale up part way, land it on a ledge or wall-jump up to higher, repeatedly finding a place to land to regain endurance.

The skyscale is super useful, but the devs did a great job limiting its use.

Not only are jumping mushrooms and updrafts faster to gain elevation if they are available, but Springer can be as well. I've been working with my son on his skyscale. There are times where I am lazy and just pop my skyscale to get elevation, but he beats me up on his springer because there are enough ledges.

So.... the devs did give alternatives to get height. Especially in HoT, because there were no skyscales when that launched.

The thing people who don't have skyscale might not know, is that a lot of time people use skyscale out of sheer laziness. In many situations a raptor or roller beetle or skimmer would cover ground faster, and a springer would get more height, but skyscale users tend to get used to using them, and default to it without really thinking.

There are places where skyscales outperform the others, like crossing relatively short distances with lower changes in elevation, especially if you need to do it repeatedly, like when you are on some sort of collect and turn in quest. But a good portion of the time the skyscale user would actually be better off using the right mount for the situation.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

It is well worth playing through GW2 up to the end of Season 4 without a Skyscale.  It is a different experience that you can no longer really have after you earn a Skyscale.  After one character earns that Skyscale, it changes the experience for all your characters.

Under a month after earning a Skyscale, I was missing the fun I had earning that Skyscale... and that was before the time gating was nerfed.  You can't experience earning that Skyscale twice, without a new account.

If Skyscale gives an advantage in grinding maps, maybe ask why are you grinding before playing through all the content once.  Maybe I missed the point of the OP.  But whenever new content is released, the vast majority of players focus on the new content, and if you have a lot of that new content saved up, then I don't see why that isn't the dominant focus.

[DeanBB.4268]

It's not like anyone is locked out of getting a griffon or skyscale, like you have to pay extra for it. You want it, earn it, put in the effort. I have the griffon and love it, great fun. I've been waiting as my brother catches up in the story so we can get the skyscale together. I don't feel like I'm missing anything, nor has my brother with the "mere mortal mounts" ever complained. 

Nothing to see here, move along, move along.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

2 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Said Stuff.....

I just don't get calling it a two tier game based upon one mount.  With few exceptions all content can be accessed though means other than Skyscale.  Skyscale may be versatile but, it is by no means the best in all situations, nor is it required.

For someone who purports to have played so many games, haven't you had the experience in those other games of being offered something with great investment that provides great reward?  Such as earning Raid or Legendary Weapons and Armor?  

[Loboling.5293]

I'd say the enjoyment of slowly unlocking the world and masteries is an enjoyable experience mostly. However, I do hope they make changes to the skyscale collection. But not having mounts would only be a problem in competitive modes. I sometimes run around without my mounts because I'm just feeling like it.

Mounts are some of the best masteries along with gliding they added to the game. Let new players enjoy unlocking them. It's not a two tier system, it's a mastery system with hundreds of points, collections and achievement type unlocks. It's a long process and its very fun. Or at least it was for me during PoF.

I imagine most players have not much issue, but I wouldn't be against some major events including some NPCs that rent out mounts for newer players. So they can move to the next event as fast as the rest of the group. (For big metas)

Edited October 18, 2021 by Loboling.5293

[Danikat.8537]

I take it you haven't unlocked the skyscale yet? It's a nice mount but it's not as amazing as you seem to think and as other people have said often not the best choice for getting to your destination quickly.

Importantly it's not like flying mounts in other games; it can't stay airbourne indefinitely except by hovering in one place. It can only go up a limited amount on take-off and any time it's moving it loses height so after a while it will have to land again. If you start from high enough up and you're careful about your flightpath you can stay in the air for a long time but most of the time it's a series of hops or glides between ledges rather than simply going straight to your destination, which slows you down and means figuring out a route to where you want to be can be a challenge.

There's also several areas (usually, but not always around jumping puzzles) where mounts of all types are not allowed so everyone is equal there.

 

5 hours ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

It is well worth playing through GW2 up to the end of Season 4 without a Skyscale.  It is a different experience that you can no longer really have after you earn a Skyscale.  After one character earns that Skyscale, it changes the experience for all your characters.

You don't have to use the skyscale if you don't want to. You can't repeat the process of unlocking it (which is a shame) but you can repeat the experience of not having it by choosing not to use it any time you feel like it.

It doesn't have to be an absolute rule either where you're banned from using mounts until the character reaches PoF or whatever, I'll often decide in the moment what I want to do. Sometimes I want to do things the way they were designed, without using mounts in pre-PoF maps, other times I just want to get to my destination quickly so I'll use them. (I do have one character who doesn't use mounts at all, as part of a challenge, but I only play her when I'm in the mood for following those rules.)

[Cyndercat.7615]

Maybe Im the minority but I agree with OP. I think skyscale is stupidly OP compared to all other mounts. I hate the thing, its clunky and doesn't fit with the smooth movement that I enjoy in gw2. Unfortunately if I try and not use it, I get left behind in stuff like bounty chains and metas and when playing solo I feel like Im handicapping myself. Maybe some people are just so used to having it they forget what its like to play without it. Removing the dodge roll would bring it more in line with other mounts its intended to be for verticality and its fine that its strong in that area. It doesn't need to be as fast as a raptor for moving across maps as well.

 

I dont agree that its a 2 tier system. Pretty much every part of GW2 can be completed perfectly fine without it. But it is a huge QOL feature and you do have to buy the entire LW4 to get it. 

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Are Dragon Flyers going to cause an imbalance between players?

No, I don't think so.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

The top tier is for those with dragons and the like, who now have a major advantage over those who have to manage with a Rafter and it’s follow-ons. Yes, you may say, all players can eventually learn or buy their way to get the flying-mounts, but what happens then everyone wants to us their dragons – total chaos in the skies over Tyria?

You're trying to make a point out of a non-issue so hard that you seriously just tried to claim that "dragons are bad because maybe there will be too many people flying in the skies". But how did we manage to play the game when nobody was flying? TOTAL chaos on the streets/grounds of Tyria! Seriously. What is this even supposed to be.

It's true that all players can eventually get their flying-mounts if they'll only set that as their goal. But it's also false that they won't be able to complete the content without skyscale.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Sure most players will be able to glide and jump using the mushrooms and jet streams to get to some of the higher levels - that’s good fun, but Flyers can easily get to some of the pretty inaccessible places that others have to spend hours of their precious playing hours trying to reach.

There are still other basic mounts that are enough to follow up in most situations.

When you say someone needs to "spend hours to try to reach something", what exactly are you talking about? Because it seems like another attempt to try and reach your "audience's" emotions by using false claims. Just saying that the more you do that, the less it will seem like even YOU believe you have any valid point here.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Good for you if you are now able to fly around [some would say posing on the backs of your splendid animal],

Sorry, I might be misreading this, but this part just looks like jealousy. Maybe instead of wasting time on threads like this one, you should... start playing through content to slowly get towards getting the mount you apparently want so much? You don't need to rush it.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

but why haven’t the Game and Map Designers allowed for more alternative routes to achieve the same objectives.

Which maps/places are you talking about specifically? From what I know most -or even all- have those "alternative routes". It's even more probable that in vast majority of cases, it's the usage of skyscale that's "an alternative" and using other means is actually the primary way.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Before anyone thinks here’s a moaning Newbie. I’m not, in fact I’ve been playing all sorts of games for over thirty-five years [Yeh! Yeh! That makes me sound like some ancient], this game I’ve been playing alongside a variation of of others games since it was published. Bought it on the strength of the original Four Guild Wars which could be inter-played with a strong background story to each Guild and interesting characters.

In my playing career [it feels like I spent as much time playing as dealing with real life and domestic issues], have been a game-tester, game modder and written a few game scrypts for friends.

Games played over the years include the first ever RPG -King’s Quest; the original series of Baldurs

Gate ; the original series of Neverwinter Nights and it’s DLCs : Most of the Star Wars since Jedi Knight 2 plus testing and playing SWTOR: the original Homeworld plus sequels; Freelancer: the excellent Divinity Original Sin series: the fun Fable; the best ever shooter RPG Quake Four: Deus Ex series: Dragon Age, all four games; the four Mass Effect; Skyrim; ESO and many, many others.

"Playing other games in the past" doesn't somehow make you unable to be a "newbie" in any other game going forward. What you wrote in the quoted above part seems irrelevant to this thread, but if I somehow missed the connection here, then someone can correct me by pointing it out.

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

So it’s fair to say that I’ve been around the ‘gaming’ block a few times, and believe that games should follow the original maxim of Fun, Feasability and Fulfilment.

All of those games also reward you for completing the content. Most of those games aren't even mmorpgs. Just like before, I really don't see the relevance here?

8 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

For me this basically wonderful game is not as fun and equal to all players as it was when it started out. It would be good to see some balanced playing for all participants, particularly for those of us have actually bought copies of it over the years.

Everyone "bought copies of it over the years". And it is equal for all the players. I don't see how it's supposed to not be. Is it because you don't want to play through content, but want the reward? Sorry, but that's, like... the core design of games since always.

Don't worry though, you really are perfectly fine playing without skyscale. I did, so I know. Then I decided I want a dragon, so I went for it and got it. We make our own choices.

[Gibson.4036]

Skyscale dodge roll does not get you the speed of raptor in crossing ground. Raptor is faster, and also has leaps.

Im curious which metas people get left behind. Help me understand this.

My son, who plays 2-4 hours a week, is getting close to done earning his skyscale. If he can do it with his limited play time, almost anyone should be able to.

[Danikat.8537]

20 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

Sure most players will be able to glide and jump using the mushrooms and jet streams to get to some of the higher levels - that’s good fun, but Flyers can easily get to some of the pretty inaccessible places that others have to spend hours of their precious playing hours trying to reach.

While it might take you hours at first to figure out how to reach a place and be able to get there I think it's well worth doing because that experience will carry over to other parts of the game (and sometimes other games) and will come in very useful, especially for those areas where mounts are disabled.

The first 3 jumping puzzles I completed were Morgan's Leap, Spekk's Laboratory and Urmaug's Secret and each of them took me over an hour even though they're relatively short and simple puzzles. Spekk's Lab took me most of an evening and I was worried about wasting the time because this was during one of the beta tests so I only had that weekend to play, but I decided I really wanted to do it if I could.

Later on when I found harder jumping puzzles and other places where you need to figure out a path it was easier for me to complete them than it would otherwise have been because I had that experience from spending time on the easier puzzles, so it didn't take me as long. If the time I spent figuring out how to reach tricky places was split between all the times I've used it the time required per use would be miniscule. Especially if you include the times it wasn't required by the game but I wanted to do it anyway, getting up to the edges of the map (and sometimes over the edge) or into other places Anet didn't intend players to reach. There's no benefit to doing that but I enjoy it and I've spent a lot of time on it and that experience with recognising what you can stand on, how high/far you can jump etc. comes in very useful for doing that. Even now mounts are an option there's places they won't fit, places they're disabled and places where they're just not practical so it's useful to have other options.

I've seen too many people on this forum who started playing after PoF and got mounts right away, or just got very used to using mounts, and then end up totally stuck if they're not an option, even if the place they're trying to reach isn't supposed to be difficult and the solution is as simple as 'go around the corner, through the door and up the stairs', they don't have that experience finding a route that doesn't involve mounts and so get stuck any time mounts aren't an option.
 

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I've seen too many people on this forum who started playing after PoF and got mounts right away, or just got very used to using mounts, and then end up totally stuck if they're not an option, even if the place they're trying to reach isn't supposed to be difficult and the solution is as simple as 'go around the corner, through the door and up the stairs', they don't have that experience finding a route that doesn't involve mounts and so get stuck any time mounts aren't an option.
 

This! My daughter is obsessed with trying to springer over mountains that I quickly walk around and meet her on the other side. Although I don't think that's entirely the mount's fault. She had a tendence to want to try and climb before she had mounts. Something about seeing a straight line on the map and not quite clicking with "how do I navigate this terrain in the way?"

[Cyndercat.7615]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Skyscale dodge roll does not get you the speed of raptor in crossing ground. Raptor is faster, and also has leaps.

Im curious which metas people get left behind. Help me understand this.

My son, who plays 2-4 hours a week, is getting close to done earning his skyscale. If he can do it with his limited play time, almost anyone should be able to.

It is faster in many cases since raptor has to navigate terrain and map obstacles, skyscale can just fly straight over them A-B. 

If you dont use skyscale and wait for the copter in verdant brink, the matriarch is close to dead by the time you go through the loading screen. The entirely of dragonfall has people using skyscales to get to events faster particularly for the champions at the end of the event. Drizzlewood also has overuse of skyscale in the north meta for moving between the events before the castle and in the south for getting to the bonus champions. Given that these are some of the main farm maps, it bothers me alot.

I never said its that hard to earn. But you do have to purchase all of lw4 to get it. Ive had the skyscale since it released so its not an issue with earning it. I just hate the mount itself.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

If you dont use skyscale and wait for the copter in verdant brink, the matriarch is close to dead by the time you go through the loading screen.

People were parking alts on that platform long before mounts were available. Not only that, but if you are concerned with getting there before the copters are available, you could go there at any time you wanted since the hot release.

8 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

The entirely of dragonfall has people using skyscales to get to events faster particularly for the champions at the end of the event. Drizzlewood also has overuse of skyscale in the north meta for moving between the events before the castle and in the south for getting to the bonus champions. Given that these are some of the main farm maps, it bothers me alot.

Farmed them without skyscale and had no issues keeping up.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Ashantara.8731]

The oldtime players had to master tons of stuff without mounts. They simply didn't exist at the time. You now at least have the luxury to get the mounts and cheese your way through all of that old content - a luxury we didn't have. So you have no right to complain, especially since no one and nothing is keeping you from unlocking those mounts yourself and become part of the "A-tier" players. We had to work just as hard to unlock them as you will have to.

 

23 hours ago, ceitic.6198 said:

but why haven’t the Game and Map Designers allowed for more alternative routes to achieve the same objectives.

There are no "alternative" routes in pre-mount content, because the routes that exist are actually the main routes, namely by foot.

There are no alternatives in PoF content, because it was designed to encourage you to get all those mounts that were introduced with the content (namely PoF).

As for latter content, there are tons of ways to go places, from HoT movement masteries to LW movement masteries and by foot as well.

Are certain approaches faster than others? Sure. But that's just one more thing to encourage players to play through all the content, not just a small selective portion of it.

[babak.3654]

I put off getting the skyscale for a good while, but with the 'Return to' achievements making it quite convenient to get the LS4 material stacks for the saddle, it's pretty easy now. The collection is fun in places,  a bit tedious in others, but you can always work at it in between doing other things.

[Game of Bones.8975]

There is also an imbalance between those with Gliders and those without, those with any Mount and those without, those with full sets of Ascended+ gear and those without ...

 

If a player has 9+ character slots they have an advantage over those who have to prioritize with a couple slots. 

 

Where does it stop?

[Svarty.8019]

They said in the livestream that you will get the Springer, Raptor and Gliding if you get EoD without having to buy PoF and HoT.

[Zentao.6314]

AS, here we go again...

[MokahTGS.7850]

The only imbalance is a self-imposed one.  Nothing is stopping you from getting the skyscale or griffon, unless you are a F2P account, at which point your argument is invalid.  Getting the gold for either mount is not much work if you play even casually.  I actually got the gold from minor item crafting and flipping on the TP so you don't even have to play the game to earn the gold required.

 

Just play the game, earn the mount and enjoy being on the other side...

[Merrex.5384]

You could just take some time and get yourself a Dragon mount its not like the mount is a cash shop item. everyone who has one had to work hard to get it. Seeing other players Fly past me inspired me to work hard and get one myself. I personally got the griffin mount first then used that mount to work on the dragon.

[Tiilimon.6094]

"Work hard"... more like play casual treasure hunts and grind some heart quests for a couple days.

 

Imo, the most tedious part comes AFTER you've crafted the saddle.

I still get to places faster with beetle + creative stunt jumping in most maps than scaley/griffon, it's pretty much like a BF-400 from GTA :)

Edited November 8, 2021 by Tiilimon.6094

[Gibson.4036]

My son, who plays a maximum of two nights a week, a total of 2-4 hours a week, just finished his.

You can, too!