Mechanist Feels Like A Whole New Class

[lorddarkflare.9186]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not really all that fussed about the loss of toolbelt skills. What I find tends to happen is that I'm taking a skill for EITHER the toolbelt ability OR it's skillbar abilities. Rarely do I find BOTH useful for the situation I'm in. It does happen, but it's not often enough to complain about. 

My biggest distaste is Mace ... It's pretty relegated to a Hybrid DPS model, much like Harbringer Pistol though with the right trait, your perma alacrity IIRC. 

Overall, it should be a pretty decent spec. Definitely meets the goal of having a different feel for the class. 

 

The biggest issue is that skill 2 does not have any conditions. That is pretty annoying.

[schloumou.3982]

5 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

 

He got a freaking break bar!!!

That thing will just eat condi spikes and melt in seconds. Even in small scale.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

10 hours ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

To address this last point. Build your mech for the content you will play. Also manage its positioning. Its not a activate and forget mechanic but one you have to pay attention to. 

 

But... how? What buttons do you have to manage your pet's positioning? You only have one button that can do that, the "return to me" one, and with that skill you can't indicate a precise position, the mech just floats vaguely over in your direction. By the way, that button doesn't even have a keybind by default because it's not one of the f1-5 skills, so you either need to have space for it on your keyboard or be prepared to skill-click it.

 

In order for this to be a valid ask of people, there actually needs to be some control you can do on the mech. Like a ground targeted "Go and stand here" button you can use. But as it is, none of that is there in game.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

6 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

But... how? What buttons do you have to manage your pet's positioning? You only have one button that can do that, the "return to me" one, and with that skill you can't indicate a precise position, the mech just floats vaguely over in your direction. By the way, that button doesn't even have a keybind by default because it's not one of the f1-5 skills, so you either need to have space for it on your keyboard or be prepared to skill-click it.

 

In order for this to be a valid ask of people, there actually needs to be some control you can do on the mech. Like a ground targeted "Go and stand here" button you can use. But as it is, none of that is there in game.

Swapping all its attacks to range.

Shadowstep repositioning.

Recall.

But I do agree with a relocation button. Rangers had a skill that used to do it, not sure why they got rid of it. As long as its only in combat to stop the potential of just sending in a group of mechs to afk grind which would result in a nerf just like to our turrets.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

5 hours ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Swapping all its attacks to range.

Shadowstep repositioning.

Recall.

But I do agree with a relocation button. Rangers had a skill that used to do it, not sure why they got rid of it. As long as its only in combat to stop the potential of just sending in a group of mechs to afk grind which would result in a nerf just like to our turrets.

1) That doesn't control positioning though. If the enemy uses their ranged skills to place ranged AoEs on it, it's not going to move out of them. It's just going to stand still and mindlessly autoattack from range.

 

2) The shadowstep is on a 30s cd baseline (24s with elite signet) so it's not really good for the level of positioning you need in GW2 combat. Plus when CMC showed it in the livestream, it bugged out the second time he used it and didn't teleport the mech, so this isn't going to be reliable for the beta at least.

 

3)Recall doesn't move the mech to a specific position, it just tells the mech to be somewhere vaguely near you (which from the livestream looked to be somewhere random within 1200 units of you). And by the way, this button has no keybind. If you want to use it, you need to skill click it, which is horrible for fast level gameplay.

 

Oh, and don't worry, mech's going to be used for AFK farming regardless of whether you can manually reposition it or not, it has good enough range on some of its traits to make sure of that.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

2 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

1) That doesn't control positioning though. If the enemy uses their ranged skills to place ranged AoEs on it, it's not going to move out of them. It's just going to stand still and mindlessly autoattack from range.

 

2) The shadowstep is on a 30s cd baseline (24s with elite signet) so it's not really good for the level of positioning you need in GW2 combat. Plus when CMC showed it in the livestream, it bugged out the second time he used it and didn't teleport the mech, so this isn't going to be reliable for the beta at least.

 

3)Recall doesn't move the mech to a specific position, it just tells the mech to be somewhere vaguely near you (which from the livestream looked to be somewhere random within 1200 units of you). And by the way, this button has no keybind. If you want to use it, you need to skill click it, which is horrible for fast level gameplay.

 

Oh, and don't worry, mech's going to be used for AFK farming regardless of whether you can manually reposition it or not, it has good enough range on some of its traits to make sure of that.

1) It controls not having your pet not be in a group of PBAOE. If they use range AoE to hit your pet, pop the dumb projectile hate ability. If that's on cooldown you also have your shield block abilities to counter the projectiles. If its ground targeting abilities then it's up to you on whether you can help sustain it, move it out or not.

 

2)18 seconds with perm alacrity. Either way it's a tool for repositioning your pet. You have stuns and other forms of soft CC to cushion that amount of time. (Blinds, dazed, weakness).

 

3)Recall gets it out of danger. It is repositioning the pet. 

Honestly just wait to try it all in beta before you go negative Nancy and say if itl work or not. The tools are there, try them. 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

20 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Honestly just wait to try it all in beta before you go negative Nancy and say if itl work or not. The tools are there, try them. 

The thing is though, all of those tools pale in comparison to the simple ability of the player to just press WASD. As a player you have complete control of your movements, absolute free movement to go wherever you want to go. AI minions in this game simply can't do that, and no amount of tools will ever fix that. You can never get a golem to go on a kiting spot in PvP, because it can't do jumping puzzles and it's not allowed to teleport there.

 

But you don't even need to play the game to see that there are going to be issues - you just need to watch the preview. Literally 55 seconds after they cut to showing mechanist gameplay on screen (almost all of which time the mech wasn't summoned) the AI ran off on its own to goodness-knows-where without any plan or intention from CMC (which means that when it does that all the skills on the golem that give PB boons are useless). He literally made a joke about it, saying it's something that Rangers know well from their pet AI (and if you head over to the ranger subforums, you will see literally years of people complaining about pet AI being bad, something that they have tested in game).

 

Trust me, I will give mechanist good, honest, several attempts before writing the class off completely. There are some potentially busted trait interactions I've already spotted (mainly involving barrier) that could make the spec as a whole utterly broken. But ultimately, that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly visible both from the livestream and from the Ranger class that's been in the game 8 years that it's always going to feel like you're fighting the golem to play the game well, not use it.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

38 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

The thing is though, all of those tools pale in comparison to the simple ability of the player to just press WASD. As a player you have complete control of your movements, absolute free movement to go wherever you want to go. AI minions in this game simply can't do that, and no amount of tools will ever fix that. You can never get a golem to go on a kiting spot in PvP, because it can't do jumping puzzles and it's not allowed to teleport there.

 

But you don't even need to play the game to see that there are going to be issues - you just need to watch the preview. Literally 55 seconds after they cut to showing mechanist gameplay on screen (almost all of which time the mech wasn't summoned) the AI ran off on its own to goodness-knows-where without any plan or intention from CMC (which means that when it does that all the skills on the golem that give PB boons are useless). He literally made a joke about it, saying it's something that Rangers know well from their pet AI (and if you head over to the ranger subforums, you will see literally years of people complaining about pet AI being bad, something that they have tested in game).

 

Trust me, I will give mechanist good, honest, several attempts before writing the class off completely. There are some potentially busted trait interactions I've already spotted (mainly involving barrier) that could make the spec as a whole utterly broken. But ultimately, that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly visible both from the livestream and from the Ranger class that's been in the game 8 years that it's always going to feel like you're fighting the golem to play the game well, not use it.

1) Why would it need to do jumping puzzles? And what is a kiting spot? If you plan on it using range you can just position it yourself on where you want it to be by either moving to said location, recalling it and letting it attack again. Or shadowstepping to the location and letting it do its thing. 

2) You do need to play the game, people are overreacting about these AI issues without even playing the class. The thing has a 600 range leap and 1200 ranged abilities. I saw the preview, and I have also played ranger and necro minion builds. Its not as big of a problem as many make it out to be when you have tools to immediately have it get on target. Our golem also has a breakbar to ignore CC for a good amount of time unlike ranger pets. 

3)I get that, AI isnt good all the time but if anything our golem is actually WAY better interms of abilities and staying alive then any of the rangers pets from what we do see. We even have our own tools to get iit out of danger whether it be unsummoning them or just manually moving them with our abilities that are a lot quicker then what rangers can do. I think Anet honestly has gave us the tools to somewhat counter these known AI issues.

[Amadeus.5687]

8 hours ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

1) Why would it need to do jumping puzzles? And what is a kiting spot? If you plan on it using range you can just position it yourself on where you want it to be by either moving to said location, recalling it and letting it attack again. Or shadowstepping to the location and letting it do its thing. 

 

Not to be rude but; If you don't know what a kiting spot is in WvW and PvP is, then your experience of playing necro and Ranger with pets is really limited  in the discussion about AI issues in a competitive mode.

 

I will explain why it's an issue; 
Kiting spots are non teleport/shadow stepping areas in PvP maps and WvW maps.  So you can't just teleport your pet there
They involve one or several small jumps, some of them you need swiftness to be able to do or can't do while crippled. 
The thing about these spots are they mess up pet AI big time and your pet won't follow you nor any target that uses the spots. It's a very handy tool to pretty much hardcore shut down any minion/pet builds, because the AI pathfinding bugs out.

 

An easy map to test it out is Skyhammer and the jump pads there, it makes your pet AI go Blue Screen of Death if you or the person you fight use them 🙂

The ranged Mech might be able to keep attacking in some of the spots, but LoS issues will also limit it. It also doesn't help the people that really wanted a condition dmg elite spec and are hoping the Mechanist can give that, cause then it's melee.

 

Vallun does some nice videos about it; Here he shows off the spots on the Forest of Niflhel map. 

 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

11 hours ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

1) Why would it need to do jumping puzzles? And what is a kiting spot? If you plan on it using range you can just position it yourself on where you want it to be by either moving to said location, recalling it and letting it attack again. Or shadowstepping to the location and letting it do its thing.

 

I'm sorry, but the fact that you don't know what kiting spots are really limits this conversation (Although @Amadeus.5687 did a pretty good job explaining it). Without a doubt, kiting is the most effective method of surviving outnumbered in PvP and WvW, I would even rank it higher as a tool than Invulns, because there is no cooldown to how often you can do it, you just need to be good at jumping. And it's something that AI simply can't do (you can't shadowstep to these locations, they are usually off navmesh).

 

On maps like Skyhammer and Capricorn, there are areas that players can reach really easily by jumping, but where AI has to take an incredibly long route to get round. Mechanist is at a severe disadvantage in these maps, because the AI is simply incapable of taking the significantly shorter route because it goes off of nav mesh. And don't try and say that the ability that has a baseline cooldown of 30 seconds is in any way on the same level as the basic ability of the player to press their jump key - it's not. Jumping is free, doesn't require any skills, and doesn't take much time. Shift signet can only be used once per recharge, and is an important defensive cooldown that you as the player might need to save for your own survival, not to save some AI that can't jump.

 

But on maps like Forest and Temple, there are some areas which AI can't ever access but are also sheltered from ranged attacks, so the only way to dislodge an opponent from these spots is to jump up to them yourself and melee them off (which your mech, your main source of damage, is programmatically incabable of doing). You also can't teleport it to these spots because they're not terrain, they're off navmesh.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

If it's a SPvP issue, yes I am ignorant to whatever happens in that mode for obvious reasons. Its not really a mode that gets "attention".  @ThrakathNar.4537 @Amadeus.5687

If were looking at WvW that issue isnt really present unless it's someone standing on crates in a camp or ontop of supply tents in towers and castles. Not really areas where they can be effective. But if it becomes that much of a problem we do have tools ourselves that can punish people who sit on a point with our explosives. So it's either abuse buggy pet AI or stand on spots where we can unload damage easily. All I got as it's how I usually dealt with the issues in WvW.

[Amadeus.5687]

13 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

If it's a SPvP issue, yes I am ignorant to whatever happens in that mode for obvious reasons. Its not really a mode that gets "attention".  @ThrakathNar.4537 @Amadeus.5687

If were looking at WvW that issue isnt really present unless it's someone standing on crates in a camp or ontop of supply tents in towers and castles. Not really areas where they can be effective. But if it becomes that much of a problem we do have tools ourselves that can punish people who sit on a point with our explosives. So it's either abuse buggy pet AI or stand on spots where we can unload damage easily. All I got as it's how I usually dealt with the issues in WvW.

 

It's an sPvP issue and WvW roaming issue. You very much use terrain, kiting spots and mini JP's when you fight outnumbered in roaming. 
It's probaly not a big deal in zergs, but all AI is useless in zergs to begin with and I have a very very hard time seeing Mechanist in any way or form have a role there.

I don't wanna come of "elitist", but it just rings hallow that  people on this forums have been calling it overreacting, exaggeration, propagating  when some of us brings up the glaring issues with AI in this game and it turns out they actually don't have experience with the topic. 
It's not to specific call you out and I apologies if it comes out that way. I know PvP and WvW is a minority, but we are some that really really love these gamemodes and it's frustrating that the elite spec we are getting have some obvious issues. 

 

AI is not an issue in openworld content and it's not and issuse most of the time fighting in open flat terrain. But there is just very little of the PvP content that's based on flat terrain

 

[santenal.1054]

Id prefer the mech to be weak ( and immortal?) and mechanist to have its toolbelt skills (shifting the balance of power to the player instead of the AI), this way you have more build options because you dont have to slot utilities  to keep your mech alive. (small groups of people will kill the mech real fast anyway)

An other option would be to just make the mech strong and immortal, but not giving the mechanist his toolbelt skills (not so intresting for build diversity and it has its problems)

Edited October 24, 2021 by santenal.1054

[iKeostuKen.2738]

12 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

It's an sPvP issue and WvW roaming issue. You very much use terrain, kiting spots and mini JP's when you fight outnumbered in roaming. 
It's probaly not a big deal in zergs, but all AI is useless in zergs to begin with and I have a very very hard time seeing Mechanist in any way or form have a role there.

I don't wanna come of "elitist", but it just rings hallow that  people on this forums have been calling it overreacting, exaggeration, propagating  when some of us brings up the glaring issues with AI in this game and it turns out they actually don't have experience with the topic. 
It's not to specific call you out and I apologies if it comes out that way. I know PvP and WvW is a minority, but we are some that really really love these gamemodes and it's frustrating that the elite spec we are getting have some obvious issues. 

 

AI is not an issue in openworld content and it's not and issuse most of the time fighting in open flat terrain. But there is just very little of the PvP content that's based on flat terrain

 

The thing is, I roam in WvW 90% of my playtime in the game, and I havent had many negative pet issues like what you guys are talking about. Then again my focus is on objectives in EBG and Non deserts borderlands. The only pathing issues I ever get are shadowstepping/teleporting up specific terrain but otherwise my pets and minions dont have much issues when it comes to attacking enemies and staying on target. Anything completely off point like jumping puzzles isnt really near any objectives to attack or defend so I'm not there cause why? And kiting spots arent really something I have noticed to be an issue.

In zergs I dont send my pet in unless there is a downed target out of position. Then again I swap to support pets like Moa, Spiders, and Ursines to add extra help when needed in zergs. It's not that pet AI is completely useless it's how you use the pet in specific engagements that matters in addition to your positioning. Many players that usually complain about pet ai issues only use the meta pets with no micro managment whatsoever. Not going to say that they arent buggy and dont have pathing issues but in my experience it's never that much of a game breaking issue that I cant find a way to deal with it.

But that's just my experience. My fights usually happen in open field when I roam because that's just where I choose to fight my targets on pet specs. 

That's why I dont see to much of an issue with how mech ai will function. Gotta adapt to where you play that's pretty much life of a roamer. Opinion will either change or not when we test play it with our different options.

[nucklepuckk.1805]

Being a whole new class is the entire problem. Holosmith is the same way. Most other elite specs add something interesting or reinvigorate the base class mechanics. Dragonhunter still does virtues, Weaver still does attunements. Berserker still does adrenaline, Necro does shroud, and so on. 

All three Engineer elite specs try their absolute hardest to forget about Engineer. All three of them are designed to be 'not Engineer.' Scrapper and Holosmith give you a slightly more busy  Warrior gameplay experience, and Mechanist gives you Ranger. You follow me? I suspect this is why Engineer is the least played. Why would I play gadget Warrior, when I could just get the full flavored Warrior?

Why are Tools, Alchemy, and Invention trait lines useless? Why isn't there a real condition spec that isn't just adding burning damage to Holo skills? Why are both Pistol and Rifle so bad? (I know, some Holo builds occasionally press Rifle buttons.) Why do none of the Scrapper traits effect conditions?  Why isn't there a worthwile auto attack that isn't tied to an elite spec? Why are turrets so bad? Why is Elixir, Tool, Med, Mortar, and Bomb kit largely useless? Why weren't those aspects of the class ever expanded upon? 

Every time I play my Engineer, I feel thrust into the situation of which other class do I want to imitate. Which other class do I want to rent. Which flavor of another class do I want to borrow on my Engineer. This problem has went unaddressed for the better part of a decade now. Every time Arena Net has had the option to revitalize Engineer, they have instead chosen to forget about it. 

And Mechanist is just more of that.

Edited October 24, 2021 by nucklepuckk.1805

[Liewec.2896]

i expected 'golemancer' so i'm not disappointed 🙂

only thing different that i expected was minions instead of signets

[hugo.4705]

God, can we stop about toolvelt already?

[Cisii.8317]

8 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

God, can we stop about toolvelt already?

I don't even mind the toolbelt babies but them medkit QQs holy kittens

[Kusumura.8642]

15 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

God, can we stop about toolvelt already?

no

[The V.8759]

I'm confused why they didn't change the thematics and made this a ranger class. A more customizable pet? It keeps in line with class mechanics. Now we just get a whole different class, nothing that resembles the playstyle of an engineer. Just thematics are in line

[frareanselm.1925]

It's the lazy's people hottest dream come true. Imagine turret engi with the bot golem!

Edited October 26, 2021 by frareanselm.1925

[Gibson.4036]

9 minutes ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

It's the lazy's people hottest dream come true. Imagine turret engi with the bot golem!

Add Asura elite golem and runes of the golemancer for more golemania!

People keep calling this the Engie/Ranger hybrid class. But maybe it's really Necro minionmancer in disguise. 😄

[LucianDK.8615]

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Add Asura elite golem and runes of the golemancer for more golemania!

People keep calling this the Engie/Ranger hybrid class. But maybe it's really Necro minionmancer in disguise. 😄

Necros would die again, again and yet again for minion control like this. 

[Gibson.4036]

5 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Necros would die again, again and yet again for minion control like this. 

Necro 2.0

😄

 

[Kusumura.8642]

NGL, running around as a turret bunker with Mechmancer runes is hilarious, silly giddy amounts of joy. Is it competitive? Not really.

But it sure is fun.