Specter Feedback Thread

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

seriously, why is action cam comments relevant? it was a feature not an intended playstyle when it was released. i see more important issues than action cam and if it still is a problem it needs to be in the bug report thread, not specter in general.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

i don't like the mini time cast on the wells. it feels clunky when most thieves skills are already instant.

 

one of the well apply some condition on interrupt. but how can you interupt someone purposely when the well isn't instant?

[zetherin.8372]

5 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

seriously, why is action cam comments relevant? it was a feature not an intended playstyle when it was released. i see more important issues than action cam and if it still is a problem it needs to be in the bug report thread, not specter in general.

You're wrong.  A significant portion of the population plays exclusively via action camera. Many have no choice due to disabilities. Completely disregarding them because you don't like it is not the way

[zetherin.8372]

Another minor bug is that the ambush tooltip for scepter doesn't show under the rest of the #1 skills like the other weapons

[SkyCake.4216]

I'm disappointed in the current state of Wells. I would consider their movement-potential to be worse than Jaunts. The low range coupled with the cast time makes them feel like Wells that have movement tacked on and something you just deal with rather than play or engage with. Their effects aren't that great, either. 

I still find the Shroud to be a bit too slow and boring. Shroud 4 looks so lame and I often can't even tell if my character did the animation. Maybe it's intended, but my auto-cast lock on Shroud 1 doesn't stick and I have to re-lock it. The animation for Shroud 1 also doesn't feel very Thief-like since it's just Necro Shroud 1. I would have preferred something quicker and "snappy" like throwing little shadow knives or something. 

I also still want a condi-oriented adept trait. 

[nopoet.2960]

If I could make one change to the spec before launch it would be to get rid of the delay on the wells.  That alone would make the spec more fun to play immediately.

 

Other than that, I wish there was more feedback when you successfully heal/barrier/buff other players.  Something that, one, lets you know that you didn't miss and two, plays into the selfish nature of the thief.  I help you... I help me.  That could be a cool feedback loop.

 

Also, don't ignore the UI issues.  Doing events was frustrating.  I couldn't tell who needed healing/barrier until I saw the downed symbol.  It would be helpful if there was a symbol for under 50% health so we could see who needs help. 

 

[nopoet.2960]

11 minutes ago, SkyCakeLight.3750 said:

... Shroud 4 looks so lame and I often can't even tell if my character did the animation. Maybe it's intended, but my auto-cast lock on Shroud 1 doesn't stick and I have to re-lock it. The animation for Shroud 1 also doesn't feel very Thief-like since it's just Necro Shroud 1....

Yeah what's up with that.  All of the shroud animations are to subtle.  I have a hard time knowing if they even hit.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Specter feedback round 2...

 

Specter got massacred and was better before the balance change. That's the easiest way to sum it up. You saw a problem, but often applied the wrong solution, while leaving glaring problems untouched.

Consume Shadows change killed the trait and did not adress the problem.
The problem being the other 2 minor traits being useless and that Shadow Shroud is not worth using either, meaning popping in and out to trigger consume was the only use it had.  Buff the other 2 adepts, restore Consume’s previous functionality but put a nerf  to the output, and make Shadow Shroud a lot stronger.

Endless Night got killed for nothing.
Quickness was not the issue, nor was the amount of targets, the interaction with Rot Wallow venom was. Even worse, you can still maintain quickness on multiple people, it’s just more of a pain to do.  Revert and fix the interaction with Rot Wallow venom instead. Oh and please get rid of that backwards teleport. I hate to use this description, but this truly is kitten.

 

Well problems were not adressed
Condi well, boon well, random power damage well and elite well are pretty much useless outside of alacrity fodder. Daze well could be good but needs the recharge go from 30 to 20 seconds. 

Forced teleport on wells should go and become an active choice, through flip over or trait.
Forced movement has never been fun, and it sure as hell isnt now.

Shroud is not worth using, buff it, for example with all shroud skills getting strong Rot Wallow Venom interaction. 

Nothing in shroud is worth staying in it for. Make stuff stronger, make it 5 targets in PvE, give it extremely good Rot Wallow venom interaction, etc.

The fact that the UI does not support Specter gameplay was not adressed effectively
I still feel like I have no way to reliably target the right people in the thick of things. The new hotkeys might help somewhat, but they still don't fix this problem. I will never be able to reliably select the correct ally currently.

Target cap of skills was not adressed 
‘Protect the king/single target support’ DOES.NOT.WORK.IN.PVE. Make stuff from scepter and shroud be able to hit 5 targets. 

 

Siphon still won’t give a lot of bonuses when it targets allies.
If you want people to use Siphon on allies, fix this.

[Okaerin.3145]

Ok... seriously, please revert the Initiative gain nerf AND don't reduce the Initiative for Specter, instead increase the amount needed for the Scepter skills and you will be good, at this point going without Trickery traits feel like the worse thing in the game. 

 

Regardless all the other nerf/buff complains and utility I think this is something Anet should address because it is feeling even worse than core Thief for going solo

[Nysha.7021]

So I haven't done a thorough test yet, mostly tried the condi scepter/dagger build people came up with, and while it was pretty fun, my only quip is it was way too easy to accidentally immediately exit shroud from my habit of double tapping skills for queuing, and at least a tiny cooldown (.5s probably) for exiting shroud would be nice.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Nysha.7021
Spelling fix

[Corvus.6172]

My major concern with the current state of the game is that specter has no role it can fulfill (PvE).
While it can provide Healing it cant stack Might making it useless for fractals.
While 5 player Alacrity may be ok in Fractals in 10 man content like Raids and Strikes its is useless with Renegade and Mirage still having 10 player Alacrity as an option.

Boon chrono can do Alacrity and Quickness for 5 players, so if you want to address the problem by just nerfing Renegade and Mirage to 5 players, 2 boon chronos will still be better than taking a different 5 player Alacrity source.

 

So if you are going to nerf Alacrity Sources to 5 players overall, people will just go back to 2 boon Chronos.

So my points would be:

1. Make Alacrity 5 player in general.

2. Remove Alacrity from Chrono (its overloaded anyways  with tons of blocks, stability, invul, boon extension etc and Mirage can do Alac + would be consistent with your approach on Specter not being able to do both)

3. give Specter might stacking to make it able to compete with HFB in 5 player content.

Some general concerns:

1. Well cast times are hell too long.

2. Specters Boon Support (Aegis, Protection and Stabiltity) is really bad. You dont have any way to help your group against knockbacks. It dosent need Aegis because it can barrier most Damage, but give it some consistent Stability for at least 5 people. (and for goodness sake why is Guard allowed to have 10 man stability as only class, while already being one of the most overloaded classes)

3. Shroud ist just a filler still. On heal you force us into shroud now by changing consume Shadows to the stacking mechanic. But this dosent change that you dont want to use the Shroud skills except for cc maybe. Please give us a real reason to stay in Shroud and remove the stacking mechanic for consume shadows again. The patch completely missed the problem.

Shroud 5 is still only for 2 people and wont do anything for you in group content while having a 5 second windup.

So a trait that makes Shroud affect 5 players or giving it some decent boon Support or Barrier/Healing for 5 players would fix the issue.

4. If you are not going to nerf alacrity down to 5 people make Specter choose if it wants to give Quickness or Alacrity for 5 people by adding a Quickness trait to the same tier as the Alacrity trait.

5. All healers can stack might, why not specter? Why can Deadeye do 10 player might but Specter can't?.

6. Well of Tears is Still a useless Skill having no Power build options. (Give it boons or make it cleanse condis)

7. Wells in general feel weak compared to Chrono. Only direct Support is Well of Gloom, the rest is kinda uselss. None of the Wells is good for DPS.

7. Scepter 2 is not used in any way under any circumstances. Stacking might for only one target is not useful concidering other healers can do the same for 5-10 players.

 

 

Things i love about Specter currently:

1. You can do tons of CC if you are not bound to deal DPS. 

2. The healing is really nice, even though it is not as responsive as you are used to from thief. (Well cast times/ consume shadow stacks making you wait 5 seconds)

3. Being able to predict peoples failures and therefore instant rezzing them feels really satisfying.

(Example: I joined a Sabir Training and just went into shroud on every shockwave and popped it right after i landed instant rezzing people in my subgroup. Was really hard to get into the group tho because they didn't need 5 player alac and needed an additional Quickness source having no hfb because of me)

 

 

tl;dr (PvE perspective):

No specific role due to only having 5 player Alacrity and no Might stacking (cant replace Alac, HFB/Scrapper or Druid/Tempest)

No way to consistently apply defensive boons (Stability, Aegis, Protection). (Well of Bounty is not consistent)

Shroud is way too weak. Maybe add boons here & buff it to 5 players (traited).

Patching Consume Shadows missed the Point completely (you dont want to stay in Shroud having those skills).

[Pifil.5193]

For PvE I struggle to see a reason to bring a single target support instead of, say, a heal scourge or firebrand. Those are classes that splash out heals and boons whilst also damaging the enemy and the spectre does not really.

 

Perhaps it shines in PvP or small scale WvW but I can't see it.

[Corvus.6172]

5 minutes ago, Pifil.5193 said:

For PvE I struggle to see a reason to bring a single target support instead of, say, a heal scourge or firebrand. Those are classes that splash out heals and boons whilst also damaging the enemy and the spectre does not really.

 

Perhaps it shines in PvP or small scale WvW but I can't see it.

 

Its 5 player healing is good and like Healscourge it has a lot of rezzing abilities plus tons of barrier.

It can definetly compete in terms of raw numbers and could even dps while supporting for some extend. (didnt test full potential yet)

Problem being no Might stacking and only having 5 player alacrity though.

 

In WvW small scale/roaming and PvP its probably overpowered due to being able to negate coordinated damage spikes and instant rezzing people (countered by poison though). For Zerg gameplay i am not entirely sure. Would probably need 5 player condi cleanse and at least some 5 player stability to compete i think.

[Pifil.5193]

13 minutes ago, Corvus.6172 said:

 

Its 5 player healing is good and like Healscourge it has a lot of rezzing abilities plus tons of barrier.

It can definetly compete in terms of raw numbers and could even dps while supporting for some extend. (didnt test full potential yet)

Problem being no Might stacking and only having 5 player alacrity though.

 

In WvW small scale/roaming and PvP its probably overpowered due to being able to negate coordinated damage spikes and instant rezzing people (countered by poison though). For Zerg gameplay i am not entirely sure. Would probably need 5 player condi cleanse and at least some 5 player stability to compete i think.

Cool thanks, I'm probably just a bit too fixated on the Scepter (which feels odd to me) so I was ignoring the other healing

[Rin.1046]

Having played more of the Specter I have a bit more feedback to provide.

 

In the damage department Specter feels ok. But only just ok. It's damage output is pretty low compared to other specs, but that I can live with as it offers support as well. However, it is in the support department that the Specter needs some improvements. Without improving the support I feel the damage output needs to be buffed. Either buff the damage or buff the support.

 

Siphon (Ally Targeted)
The ally targeted version of Siphon is really lacklustre. It gives a small amount of barrier, and that is it. It doesn't give you the boons from traits like Thrill of the Crime or Bountiful Theft, which is bad enough, but the biggest issue I have with it is that it doesn't give you Shadow Force.

Now I get that this may be due to thematical reasons (why would you siphon things off of your ally?), but it makes the ally targeted version of Siphon too weak. You feel punished for using it on an ally, when you can get so much more bang for your buck when targeting an enemy. So much so that I feel it is hardly worth having an ally targeted version at all.

I really feel there needs to be more reasons to target an ally with Siphon, even if it is just that we gain Shadow Force. The lack of Shadow Force when targeting an ally really hinders the support you can provide with Consume Shadows, as the only way to build force is through shadowstep or targeting an enemy. And if you're targeting an enemy you might as well just Siphon as well. We need a better way to gain force when targeting an ally, and to me it makes sense that it should be through Siphon.

 

Shadow Shroud Support

That fact there is hardly any support on the Shroud skills is mind boggling to me. And Anet wonders why we picked Consume Shadows rather than use shroud skills? I have said it before, and I will say it again. The best way to encourage players to use shroud skills is to add some AoE support to them. Punishing players for not using them is incredibly bad game design IMO.

The fact is, GW2 is heavy of the group gameplay, and group support is a strong reason to have someone in your group. I am ok with having strong single target support, and I am even ok with the single target support being the stronger option, but if Specter is to be taken seriously in end game, it needs to have more group support. And what better way to add that than to give it to the shroud skills?

 

Single Target Support

So, while I have said above that I am ok with single target support, it does have its issues in GW2. The biggest of which is target switching and UI watching (something that goes against Anet's original ethos for GW2), neither of which is required with ground targeted and PBAoE support skills. The auto tether functionality is a start, but when auto tether only kicks in when shroud is active, and shroud lacks support options, it is not a very good start.

Adding AoE support to shroud will not only make supporting allies in groups easier for the Specter, and not only give a more fulfilling reason to use shroud skills, but it will allow us to support others while we are focused on damaging enemies or supporting our tether without having to do too much target switching and UI watching.

 

All in all, I think the Specter has great potential. But the Shadow Shroud and Shadow Force generation (when targeting allies) needs a serious buff IMO.

[Allium Cepa.6927]

I'm not much of a thief player so I can't compare much to base thief, deadeye or daredevil. I also did not test specter much in the previous beta, so this feedback doesn't take into account whatever changed.
I can say though that what I have tested of specter is fun. I love the idea of providing single target support also applying  rot wallow venom for a damage boost that isn't might. Healing linked target by doing damage is cool. Spector appears to have decent (for a support) damage potential if built for it, counting the venom stacks on an ally while providing a bunch of barrier.  It actually reminds me of the 600hp monk duo from GW1 in a way.
I like that all the wells teleport you. Well of tears should probably do more though. It literally only does a bit of strike damage on what looks to be a mostly condi/healing spec.
The traits feel diverse and meaningful (I'm looking at you harbinger).  Perhaps  Consume shadows shouldn't remove 100% of remaining  shroud, more like 50%? Larcenous Torment and Strength of Shadows both make torment way better. Literally doubling its damage together. Not sure if that is a good thing or the power should be spread out a little. It still is a support spec, so I'm not sure how viable building for damage is anyway.
Shroud, while a cool idea feels like a heal with 2 more steps. Spector doesn't have the damage to feel worth using shroud over say, well heals or scepter/dagger 3. Maybe if the link would chain from your main link to other nearby allies but provide less benefit to them?
Offhand weapons don't do much for specter. Perhaps a minor trait could make them provide shroud power or self barrier?

Because specter is so single target focused, but most content is a group thing I think a way to help with this would be to make barrier and heals/boons splash off your link target at reduced effect. They play style would probably remain the similar, but it wouldn't feel like you are neglecting everyone else that you are not linked to.
 

Specter is fun. In its current form, it feels like it would be great in 2-3 man content, but I can't think of any content like that outside the occasional pvp thing. It doesn't feel bad on it's own merit, but rather just how the game was designed, it doesn't fit in yet. You can make a square peg fit in a round hole, it just depends how hard you push.
 

[MatyrGustav.6210]

Aside from the much needed rework for action cam, we need a way to create toggle targeting profiles that may be accessed through mapped keys.

 

for instance,

 

Action Cam Toggle 1 ( Target Enemies only)

Action Cam Toggle 2 ( Target Allies only)

 

also options to ignore certain targets like minis / minions etc.

Edited December 3, 2021 by MatyrGustav.6210

[ixon.2496]

I think the issue i have with spectre is that Thief needed options to benefit group content and make them a viable pick. But single target healing can not compete with AoE coverage that the games been designed for up until now

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

wouldnt hurt for some stability on top of what our feedback is as well, none of the wells are stunbreaks nor do they have condition cleanse in the slightest. stuns for the new especs is like watching paint dry when playing specter, wells are 5 man, allow one of the wells to stunbreak allies as well ON TOP of making them optional to teleport to, the rest of thief skills have a return button, why not at least a RETURN option to further syncronize our specter traits? would be totally the bomb!

[Zacchary.6183]

I'm probably late for this but...

BIG QoL and skill issues

• Panaku's Ambition tooltips are not on any skill that provides stealth. This would be helpful for others to know PA is working.
• A % on shadow force bar so we can make better judgements about using it rather than guessing how much of the resource we have left.
• HP circle gets replaced with a purple Shroud HP only while in Shroud so we know exactly how much Shroud HP we have left.
• A little Scepter projectile velocity increase would be nice, considering things can somewhat easily miss and their damage is meh.
• Shroud attack speed should get a slight increase or damage should get buffed to match their telegraphing. Would increase incentive to fight with shroud.
• Wells could use a supportive-like buff so they are not just there for short range shadowsteps and traited alacrity.
  • Well of Tears - At least a 20% damage increase because it does nothing else, reduce cast to 1/2 and make the animation end 1/4s after the well is placed. It will still look good and feel less clunky.
  • Well of Bounty - Instead of "-grant might instead." have it be "-extend the duration of all boons on allies by 1 second per pulse." because might application is far too common and this would make well of bounty good for keeping boons up.
  • Well of Silence - Add "-and the durations of debilitating conditions already on the target are increased by one second per pulse." because the conditions it inflicts have little impact by themselves. Extending them will be a good way to make it more supportive.
  • Well of Sorrow - 100% more strike damage, add confusion a/o burning and change effect to "Inflicts torment and a random damaging condition every pulse." instead. This will make it a better for condition builds.
  • Shadowfall - CD should be lower (maybe 60s) considering its a slightly more powerful well of silence
• Less attractive traits could use a change in function to make them more attractive. Other trait issues being addressed too.
  • Second Opinion - Instead of Healing Power proportional to your condition damage, using a scepter gives a large Healing Power bonus (maybe 200) and outgoing healing is increased 10-15%. Because honestly, thief healing scales poorly with healing power.
  • Shallow Grave - Have the Shadow Shroud tether put the trait on a 30s CD when it procs and add "Break stuns while entering Shadow Shroud above the force threshold." Let's say, 50%.
  • Consume Shadows - Increase base heal percentage so it doesn't force those who want to use it as a clutch support heal to wait for a decent heal. Reward those that do with a fantastic aoe heal the longer they wait. Idea below.
    • Exit Shroud immediately: 33% of remaining shroud HP
    • Wait 5 seconds: 75%. Or 66% and some condition cleanse too, idk.
  • Larcenous Torment - Applying Rot Wallow Venom should also grant force. This would make taking it work better for conditions builds needing access to shroud.
  • Hungering Darkness - Needs a tooltip for the amount of barrier it gives to the tethered ally.
  • Shadestep - Personal gripe, but having barrier split evenly among five allies means for said barriers to have any impact, your barrier needs to be maxed out. So it becomes worse the more allies are near. If anything it should be a flat 33% of your barrier instead. Again, personal gripe.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[nopoet.2960]

I just had a random thought and it could be completely wrong but do you guys think the single target stuff was designed to be used on downed players?  We can use it on everyone else but best use is to get downed players back into action faster.  Have we been thinking about this all wrong?

[Kain.2310]

-shadow shroud is almost useless and boring, all skills feel weak, the animation looks stiff, clunky. it has no "magic" behind it, i used to play reaper and i want to stay in reaper shroud because it's cool and powerful but for shadow shroud, i just use it as emergency healing skills it has almost zero impact on the gameplay.

-scepter is an alternative version of pistol, i stuck with a pistol since launch and now i got another pistol with cheap effect, a black tether, a black bullet, and also an exact copy of p/d 3 skill on scp/p 3 backstep.

-utility skills make no sense, why shadowstep? if specter is made for mid-range combat why would i want to get close to the enemy? if they want to give players more mobility then make well to function as a portal, not auto-shadowstep.

the best word i can describe specter is a weaker version of deadeyes, it feels cheap, clunky, weak, messed up like it is randomly made.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Kain.2310

[kash.9213]

I like Shadow Shroud but I want a better at a glance indicator of it's status.

2 hours ago, Kain.2310 said:

-shadow shroud is almost useless and boring, all skills feel weak, the animation looks stiff, clunky. it has no "magic" behind it, i used to play reaper and i want to stay in reaper shroud because it's cool and powerful but for shadow shroud, i just use it as emergency healing skills it has almost zero impact on the gameplay.

-scepter is an alternative version of pistol, i stuck with a pistol since launch and now i got another pistol with cheap effect, a black tether, a black bullet, and also an exact copy of p/d 3 skill on scp/p 3 backstep.

-utility skills make no sense, why shadowstep? if specter is made for mid-range combat why would i want to get close to the enemy? if they want to give players more mobility then make well to function as a portal, not auto-shadowstep.

the best word i can describe specter is a weaker version of deadeyes, it feels cheap, clunky, weak, messed up like it is randomly made.

I've been stuck on that point also a bit. I think they intended to provide a couple of Well options for builds that want to keep close and take control of a spot real quick but also I've been covering retreats by dropping it a few steps ahead of my people to catch up and that usually catches the points of their side chasing. 

My problem is though that the Wells aren't fast enough too often even when you're thinking ahead. They don't have great range to make up for that and they don't navigate topography any where near as well as other shadowsteps and have zero climbing ability that other shadowsteps have. Plus they can't tag people on walls.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by kash.9213

[BobbyT.7192]

For ally targeting, I think this whole process can be streamlined a bit. I get that the UI is currently being worked on to support this play-style, but i don't think it will be ready by time of release.  I think it would be more beneficial if the whole process was automated somewhat, at least for now until proper U.I. is in place.
Using a Spectre skill on an enemy will also apply a tether on your nearest ally, doesn't matter if your in shroud or not. Whenever you use a sceptre skill on your foes, your tethered ally automatically receives the ally benefits of the skill. Like how it is for your shroud skills. You can still switch allies but using siphon, or scepter skills directly
Example. You use Shadow sap (sceptre 2) on your enemy target, and your ally gains a tether. The enemy gets hit and gain weakness, while you gain the might. Your ally also gains the might as well as barrier. Never have to target them at all.
The automatic ally tether could prioritize allies in the same way boons and buffs do, (party members, squad members, nearest allies, AI allies). Now the problem with ally targeting is still there when you want to switch the tether around, but hopefully this will make it a little user friendly. The wheel doesn't need to be reinvented, because right now we are getting a flat tire.

Siphon: the fact that using siphon on an ally doesn't give you the trailed effects just feels bad. I understand for balance reason, but should I put the skill on cool down if I'M not gaining any benefit from doing so? Split the enemy target from the ally target portion. Have a F1, F2 and F3.

• F1 for enemy siphon, with all the traits that should go along with it. Will have no effect on allies
• F2 for ally siphon, applying barrier and you can swap the tether if needed.
• F3 Shadow shroud

Shadow shroud: Entering shroud needs a 1 second cool down to prevent accidental double tapping. I've lost shroud a few times already due to twitchy fat fingers.

Alacrity:  Why do Spectres need to spam a bunch of wells to achieve 1/2 of what a renegade could do with one button?

The well trait should just be a longer duration alacrity with a 10 ICD, so you only need to use one well to the job. Little mini teleports to just to upkeep one boon is silly.

Better yet, make well of bounty give alacrity as base along with boon your allies don't have. Throw thieves a bone here.

General points:

Why does CS have to consume all shadow force after the nerf? How is that fair? It should only consume what it requires. Maybe have it reduce the CD of enter shroud by a few seconds

Making a 300 trait after the fact is pretty rude, how about turning into an offensive support trait? Like give your tether ally a damage buff or something like that. Like you tether ally has 10% damage buff, or pulses might whenever X happens

Give back the 3 target endless night and replace the quickness with something like fury (would be a good source of  ally fury we have outside of trickery we could give). If you don't want spectre to be both alacrity and quickness source. Then get rid of quickness altogether.

Edited December 4, 2021 by BobbyT.7192

[Zacchary.6183]

9 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I just had a random thought and it could be completely wrong but do you guys think the single target stuff was designed to be used on downed players?  We can use it on everyone else but best use is to get downed players back into action faster.  Have we been thinking about this all wrong?

Yes and dedicated tanks. That's the only time its any good.