Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:31 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

I'll take 10 min camp flips over 10 min wall repair players any day. At least the person flipping camps needs to actually go to a camp  which helps in actually taking back stuff for your side and getting supplies, and not being an afk wall repairing supply drainer. Even before that they would have to work on getting their participation from T1-T6 and that no longer works with the most minimal effort in wvw of wall repairing or afk sieging.

 

I've been running around the past two months as a solo support scrapper, I don't even join squads, and I have no problem maintaining participation, even one zerg fight can get me to T6 using hammer 2 and 5, aoe poison, function gyro, in minstrels. When I'm not in those zerg fights I look for defense fights or recaps on stuff like sentries, camps, and tower flips.

 

The only legit complaint in 8 pages, is the fact that you no longer get participation from defense events on borderlands. That's broken, Anet needs to fix that immediately and not in 2 years down the road.

 

First off, I think we keep coming at this from the wrong way by punishing productive play because of fear of an AFKer. I dislike the normal forum response to something being 'how does it affect your gameplay', but this is actually one of those where we have some dis-agreeable gameplay punishing all the others not doing that activity. How does an active defender impact your gameplay? It doesn't.  As others use, how did this impact your gameplay? I can tell you, right now it helped you from losing. Which meant nothing today, which is the flaw in the system. The defender was the issue since they didn't want to lose the structure even though holding it meant nothing currently since winning means nothing. So what did the rest of the non-afkers get? Nothing....but they are punished by the same changes because they feel someone should not k-Train. I roam and havoc but also sadly defend. I dislike losing my side's stuff.  I solo/havoc camps, towers, keeps, but also defend. This change says to me as an active player its better to flip a camp then stay and take a long time to repair a keep. Even in EBG, how does that make sense? Again I don't need pips, have maxed out gear, but can still ask, how does this make sense? So we are all willing to trade a T3 keep over a T0 camp? Every where else the game ignores AFKers but in this case they don't while impacting active game play, that's a bit twisted in my book.

[TheGrimm.5624]

So has anyone in the borderlands tested the Wiki data versus new game facts? As stated above we seem to have bugs which makes this discussion even more divided. Will try and test as time permits as well but we a compressive list might help if it is bugs between EBG and the borderlands that is furthering this divide. 

[Xenesis.6389]

No you guys are coming at this the wrong way, repairing walls is minimal game play, it does not impact active players. I do a little of everything, roam, havoc, zerg, scout, defend, repair, as an active player repairing walls has no impact on my game play, and being active and constantly earning participation gives me the leeway to do extra stuff like run to camps and bring back supplies to an empty keep to repair a wall or gates. Which I don't do by myself anymore because frankly that should be a team effort, call it out in map chat to get help.

 

Like I said, if you're an active player you wouldn't even need to worry about participation. If you want to sit in a objective and repair walls or afk on siege that's your problem, has no impact on me as an active player, other than if you're helping queue a map.

[Bingus.4236]

Every letter in this thread is a wall repair with no reward.

[Gorem.8104]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:32 PM, godfat.2604 said:

They're saying that there are people who only flip camps and do nothing else. From my experience, I do see a lot of players who only come to a nearby camp around spawn and flip it when RI is off, and then waypoint back to spawn waiting for the enemies to flip it again and wait for RI and then repeat the process. They also try to avoid enemies unless they're out numbering the enemies, and never defend. I got quite mad with these people a few times because they did not help defend nor even try to attack the enemies when they can just sit in the ring when the supervisor was dead.

From my experience, there are more players like this than afk repairing walls, and this is also a much more effective way to farm pips and reward track, because flipping camps gives 10 minutes which is way enough to repeat this process endlessly. They can also change map if the nearby camps in the current map are all theirs. Actually, you know, the enemies might be doing the same so this worked quite well.

I also have a small suggestion for everyone. Don't assume people complaining about this change want to afk repair walls. I think most of them doing so probably would never get on forum discussing anything, beside reading for information (maybe there's a better way to farm?) perhaps. We can be nicer to each others. Assume more positive intention and give more benefits of doubt.

Much more, its basically the only place I see people actively avoid combat, just sit at spawn and run out every 10 minutes to sit at a camp capture and then back to afking. Its the only time I see people actually afk. Afking at a wall only works already if its under attacked or had been attacked, which means, you need that wall repaired anyway. And it STILL works in Smc regardless, maybe I should record a vid of me Afking at SMC even after this patch now just to prove a point, the only place that this has ever worked, for a few hours just to see peoples reactions as to how this change only hurts active players. I'm so glad I spent hours defending and tiering up a Tower the day before this patch came out, so I got to experience wvw when it was better for solo defenders and scouts.  

But tbh, its how they work, they assume and attack you personally then get their mob to like their posts, its how that mentality works. No matter how many times you beat them over the head with a stick that this change only hurts the game mode and doesn't nothing for what they claim it does. WvW is forever in a worse state if no new changes comes out to combat this nerf to gameplay and rewards. And a Precedent set that they can remove sources of Grace time without even telling us. I mean they have still not officially addressed that. 

[HazyDaisy.4107]

The latest change has had an impact on my game play as a defender, in that I don't do it anymore.  I just don't care if the enemy storms the keep with 40 players or if they only use 5, so be it, let it fall...then pretty please use that supply to build an army of golems to zerg everything from paper towers to the wurm, go on ahead, I dare a!

 

I care so much, my activity in wvw has never been lower than it has been these past 2 weeks, even when I was new.  So, thanks I guess.

[Demure.2975]

Another change by Anet that translates to punishing its playerbase by removing incentive to play. 

 

Not to be rude or anything, but it's like you're purposely trying to get us to stop logging in. I say this the kindest way I know how: What a downright stupid move.

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Demure.2975 said:

Another change by Anet that translates to punishing its playerbase by removing incentive to play. 

 

Not to be rude or anything, but it's like you're purposely trying to get us to stop logging in. I say this the kindest way I know how: What a downright stupid move.

And yet, in this thread: 

josh Davis noted that the volume of players logging in and playing WvW actually has increased bot before and after the change….

 

Huh..

[HazyDaisy.4107]

1 hour ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

And yet, in this thread: 

josh Davis noted that the volume of players logging in and playing WvW actually has increased bot before and after the change….

 

 

Nice gotcha!  It's not like a numbers increase early Novemeber could've been caused by...oh I don't know, hyped elite spec betas or perhaps a promised Novemeber 12th alliance beta that was announced cancelled on November 11th.  And sure, post patch numbers may have a little to do with this change, then again that response neglects to mention how long after the 9th they measured the numbers, it could've only been up till the 12th for all we know.

[Demure.2975]

3 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

And yet, in this thread: 

josh Davis noted that the volume of players logging in and playing WvW actually has increased bot before and after the change….

 

Huh..

Right, it has nothing to do with the holidays, bud. Nice try tho!

[Strider Pj.2193]

Just now, Demure.2975 said:

Right, it has nothing to do with the holidays, bud. Nice try tho!

His post came before the ‘holiday’.  🤷

[Strider Pj.2193]

3 minutes ago, Demure.2975 said:

Right, it has nothing to do with the holidays, bud. Nice try tho!

 

1 hour ago, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

Nice gotcha!  It's not like a numbers increase early Novemeber could've been caused by...oh I don't know, hyped elite spec betas or perhaps a promised Novemeber 12th alliance beta that was announced cancelled on November 11th.  And sure, post patch numbers may have a little to do with this change, then again that response neglects to mention how long after the 9th they measured the numbers, it could've only been up till the 12th for all we know.

I mean, you can reply to me and it does nothing.  Maybe give a shout out to Josh?  It was his statement, not mine lmao.  
 

Just because something doesn’t support your premise doesn’t mean it’s wrong.  🤷🤣

[Demure.2975]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Lots of interesting discussion here. I'd like to reiterate, as we mentioned prior to the Nov 9 update, we're keeping a close eye on the pip/repair changes. If the changes don't achieve our goals, we'll make additional adjustments. I don't anticipate any adjustments in the near-term, but that could change as we continue to get more data.

 

I did want to note that WvW playtime (average time spent per player on a WvW map) has been on an upward climb since the beginning of November - both before and after the changes. The number of active WvW players is also pretty much inline with typical week-to-week fluctuations. There's been some "gaem mode is ded" talk here, so I just wanted to clear that up.

 

-j

 

3 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

His post came before the ‘holiday’.  🤷

Oh gee, less than a month of info. Sounds legit! Let's take his word for it cause he's a dev and can do no wrong. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

Just now, Demure.2975 said:

 

Oh gee, less than a month of info. Sounds legit! Let's take his word for it cause he's a dev and can do no wrong. 

🤷

 

 

[Demure.2975]

Just now, Strider Pj.2193 said:

 

I mean, you can reply to me and it does nothing.  Maybe give a shout out to Josh?  It was his statement, not mine lmao.  
 

Just because something doesn’t support your premise doesn’t mean it’s wrong.  🤷🤣

His statement which you're grandstanding on.

And you can take your own advice on that second statement.

[Shroud.2307]

I legitimately hope those of you angry about this stop playing WvW permanently.

If the only reason you do anything is for personal gain and XP, you're a leech.
Oh, you should be rewarded for scouting and defending? No. You should be rewarded for participating. That means doing things other than isolating yourself to the vicinity of an objective for several hours and expecting handouts because you think you're "helping".

I am literally rank 100 for supply spent on repairs according to GW2Efficiency, and I didn't get that high thirsting for XP. It's because I'm always contributing to my server by building defenses when needed, pushing supply camps, tapping Waypoints, killing Dolyaks, relaying info to chat, and being an active player. I repair regardless of what it gives me because I don't need thanks to feel good about what I'm doing.

You can always repair and be showered with loot in Silverwastes if that's how you want to RP. No one in WvW will miss you.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Demure.2975 said:

 

Oh gee, less than a month of info. Sounds legit! Let's take his word for it cause he's a dev and can do no wrong. 

No no lets trust the WvW community instead, that has proclaimed WvW dead every single summer for 9 years instead because the adults go on vacation.

Surely they know best.

[Gorem.8104]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:14 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

No no lets trust the WvW community instead, that has proclaimed WvW dead every single summer for 9 years instead because the adults go on vacation.

Surely they know best.

Why would you want wvw to die though? Do you? 
Instead i'd like to see wvw get better and bigger and be more active, which brining back grace period for defence of objectives, roaming, scouts, ect. would help, instead of the best way to get Grace period being afk methods like camp flipping or smc camping, or zerg methods of spam easy kills and captures. 
WvW had many ways to play, and they are removing the many ways to play, making it a much more boring game mode. Unless you are actually blind to the truth on this fact. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

6 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Why would you want wvw to die though? Do you? 
Instead i'd like to see wvw get better and bigger and be more active, which brining back grace period for defence of objectives, roaming, scouts, ect. would help, instead of the best way to get Grace period being afk methods like camp flipping or smc camping, or zerg methods of spam easy kills and captures. 
WvW had many ways to play, and they are removing the many ways to play, making it a much more boring game mode. Unless you are actually blind to the truth on this fact. 

Do you honestly feel like this change is ‘killing’ WvW?  

[Gorani.7205]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:47 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So has anyone in the borderlands tested the Wiki data versus new game facts? As stated above we seem to have bugs which makes this discussion even more divided. Will try and test as time permits as well but we a compressive list might help if it is bugs between EBG and the borderlands that is furthering this divide. 

I am currently very confused about what gives me participation on which map., e.g. Dolly Escorts, participation event on Alpine, no participation event on Desert for me.

I really hope someone at Anet checks what is intentional (wall repairs) and what is not (defense events, dolly escorts, whatever is broken now)

[HazyDaisy.4107]

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

I am currently very confused about what gives me participation on which map., e.g. Dolly Escorts, participation event on Alpine, no participation event on Desert for me.

I really hope someone at Anet checks what is intentional (wall repairs) and what is not (defense events, dolly escorts, whatever is broken now)

For yaks on DBL, are you escorting 2 part yaks? 

 

For instance, ABL NC yaks stop at north towers and garrison, but, no longer give participation once escorted to the north towers, you have to follow them through to Garrison now.  I'm not sure, but I thought it counted for both stops before.

[Gorani.7205]

6 minutes ago, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

For yaks on DBL, are you escorting 2 part yaks? 

 

For instance, ABL NC yaks stop at north towers and garrison, but, no longer give participation once escorted to the north towers, you have to follow them through to Garrison now.  I'm not sure, but I thought it counted for both stops before.

I can't really remember, but I started out at camp, speeding and buffing them at least 2/3 of the way (which I usually do for years now). If you need them to be buffed all the way to the door, it would definitely be a change.
Alpine NC dollies have never given participation, once they are past the towers. I think that has not changed.

 

The issue has to be addressed, if it confuses veteran "herders" like me. Too many inconsistencies now.

[Bugabuga.9721]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:42 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

Last time I checked people repaired walls to protect structures, not to keep participation. Guess all the karma train servers agreed on moaning on the forums. 

Well, _now_ anyone who might have repaired in the past faces simple choice: if you don't kill the important stuff (not every enemy NPC now counts) or actually take an objective (as in enemy doesn't actively guard camp or something) repairing loses you participation.

 

Basically encouraging run with the zerg, discourage going into outmanned map (if you're in severely skewed population map you're out of luck). 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:04 PM, Shroud.2307 said:

I legitimately hope those of you angry about this stop playing WvW permanently.

If the only reason you do anything is for personal gain and XP, you're a leech.
Oh, you should be rewarded for scouting and defending? No. You should be rewarded for participating. That means doing things other than isolating yourself to the vicinity of an objective for several hours and expecting handouts because you think you're "helping".

I am literally rank 100 for supply spent on repairs according to GW2Efficiency, and I didn't get that high thirsting for XP. It's because I'm always contributing to my server by building defenses when needed, pushing supply camps, tapping Waypoints, killing Dolyaks, relaying info to chat, and being an active player. I repair regardless of what it gives me because I don't need thanks to feel good about what I'm doing.

You can always repair and be showered with loot in Silverwastes if that's how you want to RP. No one in WvW will miss you.

Wow, that's nearly 10x what I've repaired. (I'm like 1600 for rank or something). (edit: more like 5k)

I don't really get the problems myself. Like you said, if you want loot, pve has tons. But it's more like "what's being lost". And my estimation is about a few greens and a yellow if you're really slow or somehow can't play the game at all.

I see people worrying about dropping below level 6, but you earn the same pips at level 3 anyways. I often drop down to level 3-4 when talking with a friend and forgetting I'm logged on. I may be like "oh no" but in reality the game's been rewarding for doing nothing already. It really doesn't matter. This whole "must follow a zerg" thing is absurd. In a worst case scenario if you're truly unable to kill a guard for some reason you might join a tag or a bigger group for all of 15 minutes. Big friggen deal. And you need to "join a zerg" to defend properly against a large attacking force anyways. It's World vs World kitten.  You can't just pick and choose these things.

Honestly, people really wanted to keep their pips going, they could just go around in a golem. As long as you have mastery, it doesn't even matter how bad your build is, since you can just crash safely away. And contesting things with them can actually be useful, especially if you build more than 1.

But keeping up partcipation? Really? This is the type of stuff we give new players a pass for. For not new players, it's really not our fault if people don't understand how the game works.

Gold is so easy to get in this game. It is irrational to see gameplay as some kind of bizarre opportunity cost where some actions are valued in terms of shiny. Regardless of your content, as long you have some degree of good timing with TP sales, the gold is always there. Like every time some new content comes out and some random thing gets expensive. Just unload and get gold without doing most of the pve anyways. The game also hands you crap just for logging in.

 

Sometimes I just run around in Open World or cities just because I can. Am I worried about "but that doesn't earn me oodles of gold? Why am I doing this?" No, it's a game.

You repair because you don't like your enemy getting free things and want to kill them. That is all.

Oh, WvW rewards are still crap though.

Edited November 30, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[TheGrimm.5624]

 

On 11/24/2021 at 2:57 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

No you guys are coming at this the wrong way, repairing walls is minimal game play, it does not impact active.

 

Which I don't do by myself anymore because frankly that should be a team effort, call it out in map chat to get help.

 

I don't have issues with participation. I don't even need tickets anymore they are useless after you get all three sets of Leg armor. But your own statement proves out what some of us are trying to express. You won't repair if you are alone, why not? Why would you want to lose something that yourside has ranked up? You see that argument goes both ways. Why did you give up a T3 keep for a T0 camp? Many zergs that react to a call out will move off today because they know that others will stop & repair. It's not that they didn't want it kept, they came to defend but their trade off is they will move out while the scouts and roamers do the tedious bit to make sure it can hold out long enough for another attack and shout-out. Again you are assuming this about rewards but for some of us it's we don't like seeing our stuff fall and this just encourages more flipping. Nothing is more discouraging to defenders than to see something lost after they spent time building it up. 

 

For whatever previous change made you stop repairing if you are by yourself, the more changes like these discourage even more people from doing things like repairing. More changes like this impact more and more people who will just see a repair as a waste and then we get more people that are back to, just let them take it and we will take it back when they are gone. That's the mindset that made most of the people I know leave this game. The long term concern here is the encouragement to attack over the encouragement to defend. The more out of balance they are the less fights we get. Unless you are here to just say you want the mode to be just full on k-train, which I am assume you are out there to fight then that's part of the issue. It's not about people standing in towers, if you think that's what most of the repliers do, I think you should think again and stop assuming. It's about more and more changes that tell defenders to stop defending.