Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I'm beyond caring at this point.  If you're for the change, good on ya!  Here's hoping you're still good with it every single time you have to use your warclaw to run from spawn to Bay in order to Node!

[Cristalyan.5728]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:14 AM, Mil.3562 said:

Hmm.. First ANet nerfed the walls and gates by nerfing all the Tier'ed structures that is T1, 2 and 3. Then they nerfed defence sieges. Now they take away participation credits for repairing those noodle walls and gates? So, clearly ANet is telling us not to defend anything. Ok got it.

PS ANet might as well remove all walls and gates. Less complicated.

 

Hei, I want to remind you that this is a serious post regarding WvW.

We are not talking here about the EoTM. Where the tier structure is not important, you dont have pips for any participation, so it is useless to repair, you don't have players to use defence sieges, and where, indeed the gates and walls are so usefull that you can remove them completely. Everything has been done in EoTM to discourage the spontaneous formed KTrain.

 

But in the actual WvW is different. You should create a squad first. Then take the undefended objectives one after another. Without wasting time to repair something belonging to you, but damaged. The enemy KTrain squad will take care of this and we can capture it again. And again. And again.

 

Can you see now the differences between our WvW and the former EoTM?

 

 

[Gorani.7205]

I have been playing my regular style a bit the past two days and have to say that the "no participation from repairs" does not affect me at all (as I expected), because I flip stuff regularly. I still think that participation for defense events needs to return to make defending an activity to bother with, even if that one fails.
Did we get any info whether the removal of awarding participation for those was intended or a bug?

[Gorem.8104]

4 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

I have been playing my regular style a bit the past two days and have to say that the "no participation from repairs" does not affect me at all (as I expected), because I flip stuff regularly. I still think that participation for defense events needs to return to make defending an activity to bother with, even if that one fails.
Did we get any info whether the removal of awarding participation for those was intended or a bug?

The thing is, it never has given 10 minutes of grace time outside of EBG, its just always been less noticed by the people defending on outside borders as they had walls to repair and kept up the fighting. This just put it to light that they really only want us using EBG as that is the only good place for grace period time now, just much less fun to solo with all the zergs running around. 
I really do hope we just waiting on another wvw patch now that either fixes things or gives us grace period options outside of the multiples they have removed. I don't really get how actively playing wvw needs to be punished unless you play a certain way. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:59 PM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

This thread is making the Dev  to look like they don't know what type of players are in WvW, so Just For information
 

There are players who

1) play in a group with a tag that goes around and taking everything on every map (usually when they know enemy servers are on downtime)

2) play in a smaller group sneak around taking everything they can on one favourite map, will hop map during down time to take other objectives, will help if they know for sure another group is there to help. (usually invisible tagging, these guild stays together long)

3) play in a small group that wants to bust a Zerg  (These guild usually disband after a while)

4) play in a small group because they have become friends over time. (Usually becomes big and have some guild grudge and split)

5) play in a small group for guild stuff and daily, (often not in WvW long hour, because they probably play all parts of the game hence no time for WvW) these people stays together long 

6) the people who pvp in wvw 

7) there roamers that runs around flipping camps, killing dolyaks, fight other roamers, take camps, sometime they tag along a visible tag when available.

8 ) the camps and dolyaks busters, this players hold camps, kill enemy's dolyaks making sure enemy structures doesn't tier up.

9) the people who hunt noobs in wvw 

10) the people who still think they are doing stuffs for the server 
11) and then there are the AFKs 

pretty sure there are many more type of playstyles/players in this game mode 

TL;dr version: for there to be fights you need both people willing to attack and some to defend. We have plenty of reasons to attack, but how many to defend?

Your list is good and I would add another group, which has also been bleeding members, the people that like to defend because they don't like losing their stuff. They do it because you shouldn't just let them have your stuff. Don't get me wrong, we need all types of players. But we also need to balance those roles. That's one of the reasons we needed PPT and PPK. It shouldn't just be about the side that has more, it should be about the side that is the more efficient in both taking and holding.

Coming at this from a roamer/havoc perspective that also has a bad habit of wanting to defend. Again don't defend because of the rewards because it would be more effective to just go PvE for that. It's more about keeping what's yours. 

Same thing as many have said, most of people that are repairing are also doing it because we don't want them to get a free take. A lot of commanders don't stay to repair because they know if they are idle too long they will lose numbers and the more supply they use to repair means less they have to attack with. It might be at times more efficient for a larger force to move off to leave a small group to patch things up. The less there are the longer it will take, so why impact just the people doing the boring part of the job. The impact will probably hit more people that were repairing to keep something versus people doing it consciously to maintain contribution. Sadly these changes feel like we are impacting everyone else because of the smallest of the groups, the AFKers. I am not certain I know of anyone that has come out to WvW to make it rich, and I still don't see AFKers repairing walls anyway.

Take the outnumbered pips, a lot of people don't like to show up to a fight they know they can't win. Outnumbered warns you that might be going to happen and gave extra incentive to those that might take a stab at it any way even though odds are against them.  The intended change was to not have people 'pip' hunt but that also means less people to defend, which in turn means less fights and not more. A zerg taking an empty structure is still rewarded, and to be fair so is a roamer that solo's an objective or any group that take something empty. But if it's about efficiency would prefer to see those three people take an empty structure versus 50. But the more reason we create to ensure its empty by impacting defense will means less people to defend. The pip changes could still have added the extra bits to help everyone while still leaving the outnumbered pips to also encourage more people to try and fight even if it means losing. Now will we still have some people that stay and fight, yes, but again each time there will be less. 

It took a long time to get to the point that the longer you hold something it should be worth more, even if all it meant was the same reward as nothing that the sides that came in second and third got at the end of week as well. The group fear has been about sides stacking if there was a reason to win. But if Alliances do as intended and help that balance then as the devs said we might be able to get to end of match rewards. Again no one left here is probably playing just for the shiny loot, else they would be playing other game modes. But for some it is a factor people to use to base their activity on, was the time spent fun and rewarding.  

End of week rewards ironically may also encourage more people to defend if defending means holding your stuff that helps lead to winning. And the only way you get to fights is by having both sides show up. So whenever changes are made we should be thinking about impacts for both attackers and defenders if we are really looking to encourage more fights. If everyone out there was just in it for the fights, wouldn't we have more roamers? 2 cents from that dumb dude trying to hold a keep against waaaaaaayyyyyy to many, but might be trying to do it anyway because his side owns it. Good hunting!

Edited November 15, 2021 by TheGrimm.5624
double spacing oddness

[subversiontwo.7501]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

TL;dr version: for there to be fights you need both people willing to attack and some to defend. We have plenty of reasons to attack, but how many to defend?

We have like three parallell threads that have ended up in the same kind of discussions now. I will link one comment I made on it in full below. However, to put it short here, the main reason people do not defend is world population or coverage/timezone imbalances and its related scoring problems. Since about a year into this game people have just defended less and less because they realised that it is pointless to defend against opponents who will just take all your stuff at 5am when you sleep. That's it, nothing more magical.

You can go here and just look at the last day of Baruch Bay to see that it is at its relative weakest at 6pm and its relative strongest at 6am. or you can look at tier 5 in EU and see that score is relatively even apart from how the only linked server in the matchup strongly dominates between 4am and 11am. It can't be said enough how kitten of a system that is and has been for the past 9 years. It destroys every notion of playing the ladder as intended and it destroys PPT and any motivation to defend much more than it hurts PPK, BvB, open-field play etc. It's garbage and the developer is a clown for having failed to adress it for this long. No sugar coating. Raw passionate outburst 😄 .

Playing PPK the combat system makes this (one of) the best MMO open world PvP experiences on the market. That other dimension, WVW is still alive despite of.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Leo.3428]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:51 PM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

BTW just prevented an attack on Hill, chase away the attacker, killed their cata, FORGOT To repair wall, and didn't get objective defender daily.  what I just did wasn't defending the keep???? 

 

In my understanding, and grossly simplifying for the sake of brevity, the game mode is too complex for a quick evaluation mechanism to grasp everything at play, so it only takes kills and caps into account and discards the multitude of strategic elements that ultimately lead to said kills and caps. The only objective evaluation would be team-wide at the end of a season but this clashes harshly against the day-to-day nature of the game.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:19 PM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

You are basically confirming that trebbing is useless and the only purpose was to gain rewards with minimal effort and risk. It is also funny how the notion changes from "oh nooo, nobody will repair and all walls will be open constantly" to "oh nooo, nobody will siege and walls will be closed forever" from post to post. Reality is, nothing has really changed for the vast majority of players.

 

They want players to engage and interact and just did one tiny step into the right direction.

There is not more or less T3 stuff and there are not more or less players flipping spawn camps inbetween afking.

Yeah, I dunno man. I actually quite liked putting a Treb down at Duri or W/C and trebbing SMC to open up the walls so much that it basically cannot be repaired without draining tons of supply and then try and hit the supply depot to reduce the supply available to defend it. It often takes one or two people a significant chunk of time to do this, to prepare for a commander to come in with zerg to take the inner wall and lord. Now we'd get nothing for spending all that time preparing and softening the target.

I mean, it was already next to no reward anyway, but you at least got participation and you could maintain your ticks for when you went back to other things. Now you get nothing for the 30 mins, then reduced rewards for the 15mins it takes to get back to T6.

[Strider Pj.2193]

7 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Yeah, I dunno man. I actually quite liked putting a Treb down at Duri or W/C and trebbing SMC to open up the walls so much that it basically cannot be repaired without draining tons of supply and then try and hit the supply depot to reduce the supply available to defend it. It often takes one or two people a significant chunk of time to do this, to prepare for a commander to come in with zerg to take the inner wall and lord. Now we'd get nothing for spending all that time preparing and softening the target.

I mean, it was already next to no reward anyway, but you at least got participation and you could maintain your ticks for when you went back to other things. Now you get nothing for the 30 mins, then reduced rewards for the 15mins it takes to get back to T6.

Considering that SMC takes..,  maybe 1-2 minutes with a couple of Catas to have down, any commander could reduce your 30 minute excursion to less than 2 minutes….  And be hitting the gate.  
 

I understand you think you are helping..  And on some base level you are.  And, as I’ve said earlier in the thread, there are participation spots in the squad if the commander thinks you are helping.

 

If you can’t have one of those, maybe you aren’t quite as much help as you surmise.

[Neutra.6857]

3 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Considering that SMC takes..,  maybe 1-2 minutes with a couple of Catas to have down, any commander could reduce your 30 minute excursion to less than 2 minutes….  And be hitting the gate.  
 

I understand you think you are helping..  And on some base level you are.  And, as I’ve said earlier in the thread, there are participation spots in the squad if the commander thinks you are helping.

 

If you can’t have one of those, maybe you aren’t quite as much help as you surmise.

Problem...there are times when there are literally no commanders. 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

7 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Considering that SMC takes..,  maybe 1-2 minutes with a couple of Catas to have down, any commander could reduce your 30 minute excursion to less than 2 minutes….  And be hitting the gate.  
 

I understand you think you are helping..  And on some base level you are.  And, as I’ve said earlier in the thread, there are participation spots in the squad if the commander thinks you are helping.

 

If you can’t have one of those, maybe you aren’t quite as much help as you surmise.

You can take T3 SMC with 1800 supply in 1-2 minutes? Interesting.

Even if you are correct, lets say 2 minutes, then my method is still more efficient for time and resources at 30 minutes (assuming a zerg bigger than 15 people) and 100 supply because now SMC cannot have the outer walls repaired because they are so damaged and there is no supply with which to do it. Nor is there supply to repair the inner gate to delay you until the zerg arrives to defend.

My experience is that if there is anyone willing to repair, you will be cataing a corner wall for several minutes at a minimum at which point a zerg will show up to defend.

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, Leo.3428 said:

 

In my understanding, and grossly simplifying for the sake of brevity, the game mode is too complex for a quick evaluation mechanism to grasp everything at play, so it only takes kills and caps into account and discards the multitude of strategic elements that ultimately lead to said kills and caps. The only objective evaluation would be team-wide at the end of a season but this clashes harshly against the day-to-day nature of the game.

 

Agree what makes the game mode interesting is the differing levels of play. The scout is out there to relay information on the opposing sides forces, checking their sides objectives. The defender is out building siege, refreshing it, repairing damages.  The roamer is out hitting targets of opportunity be that players, scouts, yaks, camps, towers, tagging structures to mis-direct other sides. The havoc is out defending, hitting towers, keeps, pulling the other sides warbands and zergs off target and acting as hit and runs when sides clash or else interfering when the other two sides fight to influence which ever side you want to see win if that means dropping a hardened target. The warband and zerg are out to attack in mass and hopefully engage the larger targets and forces. The issue with these changes in general is it is already easier to act in larger groups but it takes more than just the largest group play to keep the game flowing. And as said prior its easier to attack then defend and it counts for more. As in other threads, fighting in general should reward participation, even if people lose. Other activities should also do so. The larger groups will quite often think its their activity alone that carried the day but they may not realize it was others making their task simpler by other activities prior to them getting there. Note I say this currently even as I already have all three sets of leg armor so I do not need the pips at all. But for players those pips and participation is what also gives the feel of progression which is what MMOs are about.  

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You can take T3 SMC with 1800 supply in 1-2 minutes? Interesting.

Even if you are correct, lets say 2 minutes, then my method is still more efficient for time and resources at 30 minutes (assuming a zerg bigger than 15 people) and 100 supply because now SMC cannot have the outer walls repaired because they are so damaged and there is no supply with which to do it. Nor is there supply to repair the inner gate to delay you until the zerg arrives to defend.

My experience is that if there is anyone willing to repair, you will be cataing a corner wall for several minutes at a minimum at which point a zerg will show up to defend.

You can’t hit inner with your treb.  It’s about Outer.  And yes, you can.

 

Of course, you are welcome to sit there 30 minutes now.  
 

Evidently you didn’t comment on being valuable enough to the commander to get a participation spot..,  Kind of answers this for me.

[Strider Pj.2193]

5 hours ago, Neutra.6857 said:

Problem...there are times when there are literally no commanders. 

Then why open SMC?

[Gorem.8104]

18 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Yeah, I dunno man. I actually quite liked putting a Treb down at Duri or W/C and trebbing SMC to open up the walls so much that it basically cannot be repaired without draining tons of supply and then try and hit the supply depot to reduce the supply available to defend it. It often takes one or two people a significant chunk of time to do this, to prepare for a commander to come in with zerg to take the inner wall and lord. Now we'd get nothing for spending all that time preparing and softening the target.

I mean, it was already next to no reward anyway, but you at least got participation and you could maintain your ticks for when you went back to other things. Now you get nothing for the 30 mins, then reduced rewards for the 15mins it takes to get back to T6.

 

Exactly, in order to combat people using siege, they decided to just remove all rewards from using siege, You don't see anyone Trebbing anymore. This update has changed WvW entirely from its core. Some do find it fun to hit SMC for hours and keep its supply low so that when people are on, its take-able, that requires a lot of work and effort to pull off as you both need to treb and keep your treb spot safe. 
Now, if you do so you are doing at a cost, or massively extended time period and risk of losing your treb spot as you have to leave and go take a camp, then run back, and get back to protecting and trebbing, by the time it takes you to get back minutes have passed so you only get short periods of trebbing with rewards. 

Its like the Anti-Treb patch, they basically could be removed from the game at this point, the devs basically telling us we are only allowed to play with catapults up against walls either zerging or solo play. If they keep patches like these up, could see wvw as a game mode dying entirely no matter how many people try to pretend its not and defend bad decisions. 

[Reverence.6915]

Sitting on a treb for 30 minutes is fun and interactive gameplay

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

12 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

You can’t hit inner with your treb.  It’s about Outer.  And yes, you can.

 

Of course, you are welcome to sit there 30 minutes now.  
 

Evidently you didn’t comment on being valuable enough to the commander to get a participation spot..,  Kind of answers this for me.

Obviously. But if they have no sup, they can't repair the inner or build a ton of carts when the zerg is attacking it, can they?

How many people and how many catas are you talking to take SMC T3 in 1-2 minutes and how many people defending?

And yes, I will continue to do so at times, because there is nothing else to do for 30 minutes before people arrive.

Because there are no commanders or enough people to take SMC at that moment, so there is no participation. Hence spending the time on the treb to prep for something worthwhile, rather than flipping sentries or the odd camp.

12 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Then why open SMC?

Because there will be.

6 hours ago, Reverence.6915 said:

Sitting on a treb for 30 minutes is fun and interactive gameplay

Some people like spending 30 minutes throwing gold and ecto at Tarrktun too.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

 

How many people and how many catas are you talking to take SMC T3 in 1-2 minutes and how many people defending?

 

Because there are no commanders or enough people to take SMC at that moment, so there is no participation. Hence spending the time on the treb to prep for something worthwhile, rather than flipping sentries or the odd camp.

Again..,  reading comprehension:  I said nothing about taking SMC.  I said getting through outer and STARTING on the gate.  🙂

 

So…. If there are ‘no commanders and not enough people’ you are going to sit on a treb….  For 30 minutes.  

Heaven forbid you go to a borderland and do something there.  

Exciting and engaging game play.  

[obastable.5231]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:36 PM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Catapulting a wall alone in WvW is an essential part of the game, it is a strategy, weather you like it or not, the person who goes catapulting alone contribute more then a guy leeching in a zerg. If you don't check everything that shown and X (contested), than your team will lost the objective. I do that all the time, some time defenders come, sometime they don't, sometime it is able to distract a whole zerg to come if the objective is a tier 3 structure. 

don't de-value what roamers do.

 

As a roamer I don't devalue what they do, please don't make assumptions. 

As a strategy it's strong viability is due in no small part to population imbalance and time zone coverage. The change is pre-emptive of Alliances that are intended to solve those gaps. It's not something that should be happening nearly as frequently as it does.

If you succeed and cap the objective you still get rewarded for doing so. Nothing is stopping this style of play from existing or players from being rewarded for success. 

[obastable.5231]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:54 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

SweetPotato answered this pretty well, but I will add that WvW is not PvP.  If you want PvP...go play PvP.

I'm not sure you're playing the same game as us if you think WvW is not PvP.  

From: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/competitive-play/

Emphasis added.

Quote

Join World vs. World (WvW) for an epic PvP experience full of cunning strategy, earthshaking sieges, and pitched battles between hundreds of players. 

 

Quote

World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

 

[LetoII.3782]

If participation is an issue, now or before, you weren't doing much. Wether Anet should disincentivize people loitering within click range of their cash shop is another matter..

 

If you were standing in an idle tower, was material gain really a concern either way?

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, obastable.5231 said:

I'm not sure you're playing the same game as us if you think WvW is not PvP.  

From: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/competitive-play/

Emphasis added.

 

 

 

If it helps, consider repairing walls as part of  'cunning strategy' 😄

[hugeboss.5432]

On 11/10/2021 at 11:14 PM, Mil.3562 said:

Hmm.. First ANet nerfed the walls and gates by nerfing all the Tier'ed structures that is T1, 2 and 3. Then they nerfed defence sieges. Now they take away participation credits for repairing those noodle walls and gates? So, clearly ANet is telling us not to defend anything. Ok got it.

PS ANet might as well remove all walls and gates. Less complicated.

Agreed, it was a strange direction they took with the nerfing of defensive siege. These days its hard to defend anything against a 30+ man zerg unless you got the numbers in manpower to counter them in actual combat. That might not be a bad thing during primetime, but since this is a 7day matchup with low population timezones, very few has the manpower to do this 24/7.

Another issue is that after they nerfed gates & walls, that retroactively messed up the usefulness of EWPs, due to the computer time it takes to load players into the EWP area (these days its often suicide, as the EWP area gets camped by the enemy when they melt thru gates and walls so fast, and so few people are willing to scout due to participation these days).

- WvW needs more events & stuff to generate participation (ur kinda completely stuck if your both in a low population timezone & always outmanned on every map). Perhaps grace periods should be converted into a dynamic value instead of being static (modified & extended based on how few allied players are on the map, this could perhaps help some of those issues).

- Dealing combat dmg and healing (while in combat with enemy presence) should perhaps yield participation? Lets face it, sometimes large fights last a long time without anyone getting killed (or even fighting a solo scrapper with zephyrite runes that constantly superspeeds away when low health is also on the "waste of participation time" list).

WvW has been heading more and more into a "Just Ktrain or Logoff" gamestyle for a few years now. We need to see more things help promote competitive play. I don't really mind that repairing & trebbing has been removed from yielding participation, but the biggest problem still remains that trolls and spies will still burn all your supply, while those who would tap a wall now and then to keep up an active participation after a short afk have also been punished.

I guess there are always going to be a few players that will exploit mechanics whenever there's an opportunity to do so, but don't destroy the game just because of those few, as removing features usually makes a game less colorful & more tedious to play.

In my experience, there were only a very small number of players actually camping walls to repair it, wasn't really a big issue. Lets face it, its boring, and I'm usually glad someone else repairs stuff like garrison gates (if we have max supply). On BG we would often even say "thank you for repairing" (not an ironic joke) in map chat, to those who would stay behind and repair stuff like that.

 

[Sugar Min.5834]

I was with BG for quite a while before. I can confirm what hugeboss said about players there appreciating scouts doing their stuff. I have gone through many servers during my active years in WvW, BG and TC have some of the best community in WvW.

Only those that REALLY play WvW will understand that not everyone wants to fight, kill and capture structures all day long. Obviously ANet did not play WvW much or did not even play at all, their decisions to nerf and make changes are solely based on the loudest voices in the forum and/or what ANet wanted and not what is relevant or needed. As always. Sad.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mil.3562

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

10 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Again..,  reading comprehension:  I said nothing about taking SMC.  I said getting through outer and STARTING on the gate.  🙂

 

So…. If there are ‘no commanders and not enough people’ you are going to sit on a treb….  For 30 minutes.  

Heaven forbid you go to a borderland and do something there.  

Exciting and engaging game play.  

Again, my 30 minutes is more time efficient than your zerg of 16+ people taking 2 minutes. How many catas/supply does it take to bring the outer down in 1-2 minutes?

Yeah, if there is nothing else happening and I know that the usual commanders/guilds will be on in X minutes, I will work on T3 SMC.

Why do you care how other people want to play anyway? Heaven forbid you just mind your own business and play how you like.

It is as engaging as following a zerg and standing in blue circles.