Are raids really gone in EoD?

[Asum.4960]

To all this "there is a reason raids were cancelled" and "the devs confirmed that they had a too low playerbase to justify development", again, for one every content that's not supported properly will have a dwindling player base. As for the reason Raids were cancelled, I don't think it was because it wasn't cost efficient and not a worthwhile addition to the game in particular. 

I'd believe that if it was just Raids that got the boot - but it was pretty much all long term repeatable content that's vital to carry an MMO into the future - at the same time as Anet was clearly shifting the company over to other game projects, including what seemed to be another online Multiplayer game set in the Dune Universe. 

 

Call it conspiracy if you want, but if a company cancels next to all longterm content forms for a game, pushes out content that generates big amounts of revenue short term only before dying off by being highly accessible with low repeatability, all while shifting their company resources drastically towards other games, that doesn't scream to me "x content isn't viable", that tells me they are moving on - which is exactly what I think would have happened had those projects not been failed, cancelled, mass layoffs, and then an emergency return to GW2 with a hasteful EoD announcement, likely mandated by NCsoft.

Some devs even let slip their complete surprise on streams that they were suddenly told to work on another expansion which wasn't planned at all. Other (former) devs stated LW4 was written as the end of GW2 initially. 

It's really more than a few lines in the sand pointing in that direction.

 

And ofc the devs are not going to come out to say that they are moving on and watch revenue plummet as people leave, while they need those funds to finish their other projects. "X is still on the table" or "we just don't have the resources/player numbers to support x right now" are much more likely responses to get, and I don't see them to be taken as gospel with how tightly curated dev responses are.  

 

If anything, the fact that Raids/hardcore PvE content got any response/excuse like that out of Anet at all by popular community demand, when all the other content forms from Guild Systems to Guild Missions to Dungeons to PvP to WvW to, well you get the point, anything but short term Story content was essentially abandoned with those devs being moved over to other game projects, speaks to the high demand in the community for that content in particular.

 

Ofc there is no way to say for sure, and ultimately the reason doesn't even matter for what I truly believe the game needs in terms of content right now (which doesn't necessarily have to be Raids in that form, but any sort of community building group content in general, which seems like what Anet is indeed working towards with Strikes and Alliances) - but "I'm sure Anet had a reason to cancel Raids" at least to me seems like a pretty weak argument considering the amount of things that got cancelled/largely abandoned at around the same time, and the accompanying circumstances.

[Swagger.1459]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

To all this "there is a reason raids were cancelled" and "the devs confirmed that they had a too low playerbase to justify development", again, for one every content that's not supported properly will have a dwindling player base. As for the reason Raids were cancelled, I don't think it was because it wasn't cost efficient and not a worthwhile addition to the game in particular. 

I'd believe that if it was just Raids that got the boot - but it was pretty much all long term repeatable content that's vital to carry an MMO into the future - at the same time as Anet was clearly shifting the company over to other game projects, including what seemed to be another online Multiplayer game set in the Dune Universe. 

 

Call it conspiracy if you want, but if a company cancels next to all longterm content forms for a game, pushes out content that generates big amounts of revenue short term only before dying off by being highly accessible with low repeatability, all while shifting their company resources drastically towards other games, that doesn't scream to me "x content isn't viable", that tells me they are moving on - which is exactly what I think would have happened had those projects not been failed, cancelled, mass layoffs, and then an emergency return to GW2 with a hasteful EoD announcement, likely mandated by NCsoft.

Some devs even let slip their complete surprise on streams that they were suddenly told to work on another expansion which wasn't planned at all. Other (former) devs stated LW4 was written as the end of GW2 initially. 

It's really more than a few lines in the sand pointing in that direction.

 

And ofc the devs are not going to come out to say that they are moving on and watch revenue plummet as people leave, while they need those funds to finish their other projects. "X is still on the table" or "we just don't have the resources/player numbers to support x right now" are much more likely responses to get, and I don't see them to be taken as gospel with how tightly curated dev responses are.  

 

If anything, the fact that Raids/hardcore PvE content got any response/excuse like that out of Anet at all by popular community demand, when all the other content forms from Guild Systems to Guild Missions to Dungeons to PvP to WvW to, well you get the point, anything but short term Story content was essentially abandoned with those devs being moved over to other game projects, speaks to the high demand in the community for that content in particular.

 

Ofc there is no way to say for sure, and ultimately the reason doesn't even matter for what I truly believe the game needs in terms of content right now (which doesn't necessarily have to be Raids in that form, but any sort of community building group content in general, which seems like what Anet is indeed working towards with Strikes and Alliances) - but "I'm sure Anet had a reason to cancel Raids" at least to me seems like a pretty weak argument considering the amount of things that got cancelled/largely abandoned at around the same time, and the accompanying circumstances.

You missed the memo on raids…

 

”Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract. We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there isn't anything to help players work their way up.”

 

 

Now had the devs put in difficulty settings, which other mmo have utilized, more people would be playing raids and the devs could have justified supporting it better.
 

We brought up many ideas of difficulty settings, requested difficulty settings, and various adjustments to raids thousands and thousands of times. Ignored. Not done. Certain players didn’t want difficulty settings in their “elite content”, so now they don’t get raids anymore.
 

Oh well. No love lost from those that tried to encourage the devs and got insulted by “elitist” players on the forums who consider themselves mighty “hardcore” players. 
 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Swagger.1459 said:

You missed the memo on raids…

 

”Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract. We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there isn't anything to help players work their way up.”

 

 

Now had the devs put in difficulty settings, which other mmo have utilized, more people would be playing raids and the devs could have justified supporting it better.
 

We brought up many ideas of difficulty settings, requested difficulty settings, and various adjustments to raids thousands and thousands of times. Ignored. Not done. Certain players didn’t want difficulty settings in their “elite content”, so now they don’t get raids anymore.
 

Oh well. No love lost from those that tried to encourage the devs and got insulted by “elitist” players on the forums who consider themselves mighty “hardcore” players. 
 

 

 

Let's see what happens with strukes shall we?

 

My guess, if strike CMs are actually raid replacements/equivalent:

- the players who managed to get into raids will manage just fine with strike CMs

- the players who struggle with raids, will struggle just as much with strike CMs

- the main benefit will be the shared resources development wise

- players not interested in raids/strikes will experience the story

 

Here is the harsh reality:

No content in this game will prepare any player for other more difficult content. It won't work here just as little as it will work in other games (see FF14, WoW, etc.). It also didn't work with strikes so far. Any player entering the more challenging content practices, wipes and has to bring a group mentality forward.

 

Every unique snowflake that puts their own desire, build, experience first befoee the group, will struggle due to 1 simple reason: no one wants such people in their group.

[Swagger.1459]

47 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Let's see what happens with strukes shall we?

 

My guess, if strike CMs are actually raid replacements/equivalent:

- the players who managed to get into raids will manage just fine with strike CMs

- the players who struggle with raids, will struggle just as much with strike CMs

- the main benefit will be the shared resources development wise

- players not interested in raids/strikes will experience the story

 

Here is the harsh reality:

No content in this game will prepare any player for other more difficult content. It won't work here just as little as it will work in other games (see FF14, WoW, etc.). It also didn't work with strikes so far. Any player entering the more challenging content practices, wipes and has to bring a group mentality forward.

 

Every unique snowflake that puts their own desire, build, experience first befoee the group, will struggle due to 1 simple reason: no one wants such people in their group.

Seeing as how you are not familiar with raid type content across the mmo genre, many other games utilized various difficulty levels (normal, hard modes), different grouping amounts (5-30), and other scaling options that allowed players to pick levels of challenge  they were comfortable with and that opened the door to more participation. Side effect allowed players to get better and challenge themselves more and more, and tackle harder raid content. 
 

Some of you act as if this is your very first mmo experience, and don’t know anything outside of GW2. This isn’t some new concept and it’s not rocket science. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Zok.4956]

On 11/13/2021 at 6:11 PM, Zuldari.3940 said:

We have not heard one thing about raid development for End of Dragons, we hear about strikes and CM strikes. That is very disappointing and telling. Strikes in no way replace raids, even now only a small part of the community do strikes, do you expect them to be popular in EoD? 

Raids in GW2 are (more or less) boss fights  with some filler content in between.  The idea of strikes was to remove the filler  content and to go directly to the boss fights. Yes, the "filler content" in raids is nice, but the more you do it, the more it becomes only filler content. 

How strikes were introduced in IBS was inconsistent and not very good. But Anet said somewhere, that they learned from this and in EoD  every strike will have an "easy-mode" for beginners (the "normal mode") and a CM-mode that will be like a true raid boss encounter and that will be like a raid. And they will also rework the strike reward in EoD to make it better, consistent and more rewarding. Because of this no raids are planned for EoD.

If done well, the EoD-strikes could become very popular with players who want challenging content for 10 player groups.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Zok.4956

[Swagger.1459]

 

“While designers have to worry about wrangling that sense of challenge within a raid group, they also have to accommodate different degrees of player skill. Over the past decade, many MMOs have introduced difficulty settings for their raids, which allows the game to appeal to both the highly skilled guilds competing to become the first in the world to slay the archfiend, and the more casual groups that Hazzikostas calls the “Friday night beer run crowd.”

 

Difficulty settings and options are the “stepping stones” to get more players involved, but no one wanted to devote the resources to it. Instead, players were told by the team that if they can’t do raids and want to experience them, they can watch YouTube. Can’t forget the “bucket of salty tears” comment.
 

So the team didn’t bother to implement things that were being experimented with and used across mmos for a decades, and no more raids now. Oh well. 

[Cyninja.2954]

50 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Seeing as how you are not familiar with raid type content across the mmo genre, many other games utilized various difficulty levels (normal, hard modes), different grouping amounts (5-30), and other scaling options that allowed players to pick levels of challenge  they were comfortable with and that opened the door to more participation. Side effect allowed players to get better and challenge themselves more and more, and tackle harder raid content. 
 

Some of you act as if this is your very first mmo experience, and don’t know anything outside of GW2. This isn’t some new concept and it’s not rocket science. 

Oh I am more than familiar with raid content across the MMORPG genre. Thanks for assuming and in fact making bogus claims yourself (have you raided in multiple MMORPGs actually? Really top end raided?).

 

I was very clear in what I was claiming:

I was not disputing that other games have more than 1 difficulty.

I was not disputing that scaling can make content more accessible because it reduces the necessity for fixed player counts.

 

The claim I made is this:

Challenging content, and especially ultra high end content, in near all MMORPGs, at least the top MMORPGs in the west (FF14, WoW, ESO, SWToR, GW2, even WH Online even if it was discontinued), REQUIRED players improve on their own to beat challenging content no matter how well the game "prepared" players beforehand. That remained true among ALL those games and remains true to this day.

 

As such, while difficulty settings will allow more players to experience the content on different levels, as well as share resources to some extent, they will NOT solve some of the main underlying issues which some players who are struggling with raids are facing: that is, the unwillingness to adapt to the necessities required to succeed, and thus keep them locked away from prestigious rewards of those higher difficulties (if they so exist). Which is exactly the claim I made: if you are that special snowflake that "plays how you want" with no regards of  the group, then people won't want to have you along.

 

I have raided across now 5 MMORPGs by now in my life, near always the most challenging content, and I have yet to see ANY game where no significant additional player effort outside of what the game "teaches", was needed.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Swagger.1459]

16 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

the unwillingness to adapt to the necessities required to succeed

Some players will and some players won’t. That will never change and that will never be “solved”. 
 

Gw2 offered 1 setting to raids, that’s the main problem why they are in then trash bin now, not because players had an “unwillingness to adapt”, that falls on the shoulders of anet. 

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Seeing as how you are not familiar with raid type content across the mmo genre, many other games utilized various difficulty levels (normal, hard modes), different grouping amounts (5-30), and other scaling options that allowed players to pick levels of challenge  they were comfortable with and that opened the door to more participation. Side effect allowed players to get better and challenge themselves more and more, and tackle harder raid content. 
 

Some of you act as if this is your very first mmo experience, and don’t know anything outside of GW2. This isn’t some new concept and it’s not rocket science. 

Yea if you are fine with 2 blues and a green as reward why not.

Ofcourse less living story/maps since the resources will be taken from open world to get easy mode raids ofcourse.

People dident want that and neither did Anet it seems.

[Swagger.1459]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea if you are fine with 2 blues and a green as reward why not.

Ofcourse less living story/maps since the resources will be taken from open world to get easy mode raids ofcourse.

People dident want that and neither did Anet it seems.

So now no more raids lol 

[Teratus.2859]

10 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I would argue that people who had the capacity to learn and overcome "challenges" of raiding broadly speaking, stayed in those raiding communities, but the effort to keep clearing was not worth it after you got your ultimate raid rewards (the armor and trinket). Profit and effort/skill wise it makes more sense to do open world farms. 

We are already missing massive surge of new players because they think raids are too hard for them. Then there is fair share of people who no matter what, will never tackle raids for whatever reason. The game gets easier and easier with each patch so there is little incentive to improve. So why should someone step out of their comfort zone and improve if there is more reward elsewhere costing less effort?

What you are arguing here is a point that is not even contested by many of us.

You are specifically talking about the population loss of raiders leaving raiding in this argument which as I said in a previous post has never been denied in the first place.
This event was not the beginning of the end for raiding it was the final nail in the coffin.

The bigger population loss that always hurt raiding the most was the one were the so called "casuals" were bullied and gatekept out of the content in the early days of raiding because they didn't want to be told how they had to play the game to participate in this content by players who considered themselves better than everyone because they ran popular meta builds and had higher DPS numbers.
Factors which yes definitely make raiding easier and faster, a point that was never counter argued in the first place.
But are absolutely NOT! "essential" for playing and beating the actual raid content, no matter how arrogantly and viciously enforced that lie was by a lot raiders.

The only thing you said here that I would contest is the comment about "capacity to learn and overcome challenges of raiding"
You imply that this ability is limited to only a small portion of Gw2's players, but that is simply not true.
Most players have the ability and skill needed to play and beat raids, or at the very least a significantly large population of the players do.
This is proven every single time some random low skill casual player manages to actually find a raid group of similarly experienced raid noobs and still overcomes the raid boss after countless fails and wipes, getting closer and closer to success with every try.
What these players lack and have been subsequently denied by being excluded was always the essential hands on experience they needed to learn the individual raid boss mechanics, by far thee most vital element of succeeding in raids and is the only thing that separates the hardcore Raiders from everyone else.

It has been pointed out and proven time and time again by many players and content creators that meta builds are NOT! essential for raiding, and it is the "casual" players refusal to assimilate into this meta culture that is the sole reason they were gatekept out of raiding in the first place, it never had anything to do with their inexperience or skill level nor their "willingness to learn" these are lies perpetuated by elitist raiders to keep the community around this content free from casuals who want to enjoy the content their own way.
All group content in Gw2 has had to deal with this kind of elitism at one point or another, even in the early days of Gw2 when dungeon's had those same kinds of elitist attitudes.
"Play our way or gtfo!" It has always existed in this game.

10 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Anet in my opinion, failed to this day introduce ways and encourage players to "git gut". We still lack in-game explanations for majority of mechanics and systems.

This I actually agree with very much.

This is the main reason so many of us have asked for "easy mode" raids countless times in the past so we could have those tools and gain that essential hands on experience in an environment where none of us would have to deal with the kind of elitist players that kept us away from trying to learn in the normal mode.
Easy mode raids would only appeal to those of us who desperately needed a reason to give raiding another chance and would have made it significantly easier to find other like minded players to learn with.

But who had the biggest problem with this overall and constantly attacked every thread and post asking for such a thing?
"Hardcore" raiders did and they attacked and shut down every argument and every pro easy mode comment with nonsense like "you just don't want to learn how to play".. an utterly ridiculous fallacy to perpetuate in threads where the subject matter is literally asking for new tools to help them learn how to play the content.
 

10 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

We are already missing massive surge of new players because they think raids are too hard for them. Then there is fair share of people who no matter what, will never tackle raids for whatever reason. The game gets easier and easier with each patch so there is little incentive to improve. So why should someone step out of their comfort zone and improve if there is more reward elsewhere costing less effort?

There are some who think raids are too hard, this is true.
There are many who no matter what will never have any interest in raiding, this is also true.

But there are also many who think raids, specifically the raid community is extremely toxic and elitist and raids are too hard to get into because of that as well and are simply not worth even bothering to try anymore.
The latter is backed up by many years of players talking about their negative after negative experiences with those kinds of players.
These players are the main reason for the biggest early population drops in raids which is the reason for the content drought that eventually drove many seasoned raiders away as well.

It may also surprise you to know that not everyone is so reward focused in Gw2, the vast majority of people who wanted to play raids but were pushed away for not wanting to assimilate into the meta culture mostly wanted to play raids for the experience of the content, for the story and most of all, for fun!
And that's why they refused to assimilate into the meta culture in the first place, because they don't find playing Gw2 that way fun.
Raiders.. made raiding toxic and unfun for these people and that is why they walked away from it.

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It may also surprise you to know that not everyone is so reward focused in Gw2,

Really? Is that why different types of content rise and fall like the wind depending on changes to the rewards?

 

The majority of player behavior would indicate that rewards, and how rewarding content is, has a significant affect on players (unrelated to game mode too).

Quote

the vast majority of people who wanted to play raids but were pushed away for not wanting to assimilate into the meta culture mostly wanted to play raids for the experience of the content, for the story and most of all, for fun!

So, if there was so many players willing to do that, why did not a majority of groups get composed of such players form?

Where was/is the drive, the initiative, the huge pool of players which could have all played this way?

Or maybe, the vast majority of players who wanted to play raids managed (and have grown bored of the content after years of neglect), a small MINORITY of difficult individuals did not, and the rest was not interested.

Quote

And that's why they refused to assimilate into the meta culture in the first place, because they don't find playing Gw2 that way fun.

 

True, for players who do not want to yield or put behind their personal desires/demands over a groups desire/demands, group focused content would have been not fun.

Meanwhile, most group content would also have been significantly harder with such an attitude.

Quote

Raiders.. made raiding toxic and unfun for these people and that is why they walked away from it.

 

I love the victim role here. Yes, everybody else was to blame for ones own failure or lack of success at something.

Players with selfish attitudes have and will struggle in group content. That's what it will always come down to. The only 1 question which one ever need answer related to group content is:"Why should the other players want to play with me?" That's it.

Now how you make others answer that question beneficially (for example: they are my friends/guildies, I provide something the group needs/wants, I pay them, etc.) is up to each individual. "I play what ever I want and how I want it while not caring about how useful I am", usually does not make it very far on that list.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Really? Is that why different types of content rise and fall like the wind depending on changes to the rewards?

The majority of player behavior would indicate that rewards, and how rewarding content is, has a significant affect on players (unrelated to game mode too).

You're arguing from a point of longevity not experienced/enjoyed.

Content that can be farmed for rewards are always going to stick around in popularity for a long time until something more profitable comes along.
This is normal in MMO's

This doesn't however indicate how enjoyable that content is!
There have been plenty of profitable farms in Gw2 over time, the only element of their success that matters is is how rewarding they are, not how fun they are to play.

Many players don't farm content at all because it's boring and turns them off playing certain content.
Personally I really like the Istan meta events, but Istan farming is not as popular as it once was thanks to diminished rewards and better farms coming along.
That doesn't in any way make the Istan events less fun to me, and when I do participate in those events I do so mostly because I enjoy them.

The rewards are just a bonus.
 

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So, if there was so many players willing to do that, why did not a majority of groups get composed of such players form?

Where was/is the drive, the initiative, the huge pool of players which could have all played this way?

If you haven't noticed these kinds of players don't particularly care for organising groups and many of them do play most of the game solo so they do not develop much of a community based attitude.

When we do play group content we rarely call on friends, dedicated groups and guildmates, we just join a random group on the LFG, or make our own open invitations to anyone and play with a motely crew of total strangers.

This is actually a big fault on our part and I do admit that freely.
However you also have to remember that Gw2 strongly caters to, balances content around and encourages this kind of player as well, hence why they are the vast majority of the Gw2 playerbase.

So while you can argue about not wanting people like this in your groups which I both understand and agree that you have a right to make that that choice.

Those players can also argue in return that Gw2 is their MMO more than it is your MMO..
There are so many other MMO's out there that cater to and create content catered to your style of player.
Gw2 is one of the only ones that doesn't cater to your style but instead caters to their style.. the casuals.
Based on that these casual players could then also argue that Raiding has no place in Gw2 at all.. and while I personally would not agree with any of that.. I would at least have to agree that they have a good point.

And for the record to, the vast majority of posts I have made arguing with raiders has been in favour of a separate casual raiding community that would not interact with your "hardcore" one.
And every time I have brought that up and tried to promote this second community you guys have had a problem with it and shut it down with tripe like "you just don't want to learn how to play" 

I have never had a problem with you not wanting casuals in your groups, i've only ever had a problem with how you've treated players who don't enjoy the game the same way you do and have been driven away from content because of their refusal to assimilate to your ways.

You ask where are all these so called interested players?
It's simple, they give up and stopped trying to get into raiding because of the negative experiences they had with your community, and they just don't care enough anymore to want to come back and try again.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

True, for players who do not want to yield or put behind their personal desires/demands over a groups desire/demands, group focused content would have been not fun.

At least you can see the problem exists here, many raiders i've argued with completely dismiss it and claim we "don't want to learn"

As said above you want the freedom to form groups of likeminded players to play certain content.
We only want that same freedom.
The problem is the community I want to play with was bullied and driven away by your community and no longer has any presence in the raid population, and I have always admitted that both communities have some blame in this reality coming to pass, it is not entirely your communities fault but it is mostly your communities fault.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Meanwhile, most group content would also have been significantly harder with such an attitude.

Yes, yes it would have been, this has never been a contested point either.

However you completely overlook the fact that for most people, they simply don't care about this element like you do.

You also overlook that fact that a lot of players actively enjoy the game more by making it harder for themselves.
Hell one of my favourite pastimes in GW2 is soloing bosses, group content and legendary creatures.
I thrive on that challenge, the harder something is to fight and kill the more I enjoy fighting it... the more memorable and enjoyable that experience is to me and the more the win feels like an accomplishment or achievement.

So what if we want to play the game our way and subsequently make the content harder for ourselves? 
That's how we enjoy Gw2.

Which is also quite amusing as well considering how you raiders often proclaim you both love and want more difficult and challenging content in Gw2.
It makes no sense that you constantly attack anyone who "doesn't play up to your standards" because they are making the content harder, longer and more challenging for you.

From my perspective it clearly sounds more like all you guys really care for is the rewards, obtaining them as quickly and as often as possible.. rather than you enjoy the experience and challenge of playing the content itself.
If challenge and difficulty is really what you chase after then why would you exclude those who's very inclusion would provide that for you?
Tell me how the hell that one makes sense lol.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Cyninja.2954]

25 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

From my perspective it clearly sounds more like all you guys really care for is the rewards, obtaining them as quickly and as often as possible.. rather than you enjoy the experience and challenge of playing the content itself.

If challenge and difficulty is really what you chase after then why would you exclude those who's very inclusion would provide that for you?
Tell me how the hell that one makes sense lol.

 

You are throwing a lot of approaches over 1 comb, as though there was only 1 reason why segregation exists.

Let's unwind this a little:

A. players who enjoy challenging content most often enjoy conquering it. That's where progress raiding comes in. (which given this games very long release cycles, is near non existent. Wing 7 was CM cleared in like 2.5 hours after release)

B. some players also enjoy honing their skills as much as possible, that's where optimization comes in

C. going along those lines, clearing content in specific ways, some harder, other easier, challenges people's ability to adapt, create builds and in general switchup or move the goal post. That's where speedrunning comes in on the one side, safe but fast non meta comps/builds on the other

D. some players do it for the loot (mostly gold and some drops because after 4.7k LI/LD I can tell you: my biggest concern in regards to those is only when will my 2k storage be full).

E. some very good players sell runs, why give something away for free if others are willing to pay?

F. all players will have different mindsets depending on what type of run they do. My attitude, approach, professionalism and even classes played will vary greatly between my FC static and more casual guild raids later down the week.

 

The issue has never been about wanting to "carry" players for the additional challenge. That certainly happens more than enough in trainings runs or guild training runs, which by the way a ton of experienced raiders participate in. It's about achieving the set task in a way everybody agrees on and having an obnoxious person telling you they want to run their build of choice, which you know is garbage, certainly does not fit because: I get to play how I (or in this case the group) want/s.

 

For anyone who hasn't watched Mighty Teapots stream on PvE recently (in discussion with Snebzor, Nike, Preston), all of which do trainings en mass. Go watch from 1:10:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRUMKVeIJr8) and realize WHAT raid trainers have to deal with. Make sure to watch "the raid community" and "getting into raiding". You'll get a great overview on issues which ACTUAL raid trainers face on a daily basis from the more casual players and toxic elitists.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Swagger.1459]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Really? Is that why different types of content rise and fall like the wind depending on changes to the rewards?

 

The majority of player behavior would indicate that rewards, and how rewarding content is, has a significant affect on players (unrelated to game mode too).

So, if there was so many players willing to do that, why did not a majority of groups get composed of such players form?

Where was/is the drive, the initiative, the huge pool of players which could have all played this way?

Or maybe, the vast majority of players who wanted to play raids managed (and have grown bored of the content after years of neglect), a small MINORITY of difficult individuals did not, and the rest was not interested.

True, for players who do not want to yield or put behind their personal desires/demands over a groups desire/demands, group focused content would have been not fun.

Meanwhile, most group content would also have been significantly harder with such an attitude.

 

I love the victim role here. Yes, everybody else was to blame for ones own failure or lack of success at something.

Players with selfish attitudes have and will struggle in group content. That's what it will always come down to. The only 1 question which one ever need answer related to group content is:"Why should the other players want to play with me?" That's it.

Now how you make others answer that question beneficially (for example: they are my friends/guildies, I provide something the group needs/wants, I pay them, etc.) is up to each individual. "I play what ever I want and how I want it while not caring about how useful I am", usually does not make it very far on that list.

Nice! Totally proved their point lol…. And raids are dead, you can thank yourselves and anet for it. Give yourselves a big hand! 

[Cyninja.2954]

11 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Nice! Totally proved their point lol…. And raids are dead, you can thank yourselves and anet for it. Give yourselves a big hand! 

Nah, I'm looking forward to strike CMs and the discussion those will create IF they are raid equivalent, because the same people whining about raids over the years will be the first to come here and do the same about that content.

If not (aka strike CMs are not raid equivalent and not successful in engaging players who enjoy challenging content), not a big loss. The hardcore PvE community has moved on already anyway. The game will get carried by the more casual crowed then or eventually lose resources down the road.

The question then becomes: if strike CMs are just as raids, solve little to none of the issues, because those are not issues which can get solved via simple difficult slider, yet are successful, does that mean the reason raids failed was the lack of releases? If so, was this entire forum drama about toxicity and gating meaningless? Let's wait and see shall we?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Obtena.7952]

Wow, are players ACTUALLY trying to imply that Anet didn't support raids enough to make them sustainable? That's some level of special right there. I have no doubt that Anet pushed that content in people's faces as much as they possibly could before throwing in the towel. There were SO many things about raids that discouraged players from engaging that content, it was inevitable they would go away. 

Different difficulty levels might do the trick for Strikes (do I understand correctly there are now three levels ... the story, the regular and the CM?) though I think unfamiliar mechanics will remain a significant barrier past story level if people can't be carried by more experienced players in the team. That's just the reality ... I know it's not a popular prospect for the more accomplished raiding community but ... strikes will be more successful content the more willing the accomplished people are to engage with the less engaged people. It's too bad because ... the same would have been true with raids.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Cyndercat.7615]

38 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wow, are players ACTUALLY trying to imply that Anet didn't support raids enough to make them sustainable? That's some level of special right there. I have no doubt that Anet pushed that content in people's faces as much as they possibly could before throwing in the towel. There were SO many things about raids that discouraged players from engaging that content, it was inevitable they would go away. 

Different difficulty levels might do the trick for Strikes (do I understand correctly there are now three levels ... the story, the regular and the CM?) though I think unfamiliar mechanics will remain a significant barrier past story level if people can't be carried by more experienced players in the team. That's just the reality ... I know it's not a popular prospect for the more accomplished raiding community but ... strikes will be more successful content the more willing the accomplished people are to engage with the less engaged people. It's too bad because ... the same would have been true with raids.

Yes when you pull all development to work on living world, and as a result content releases drop to once a year, if that, then you are not supporting the content enough to make it sustainable. Happened with PVP, happened with WvW and happened with raids. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

Yes when you pull all development to work on living world, and as a result content releases drop to once a year, if that, then you are not supporting the content enough to make it sustainable. 

 

Except if Anet did pull all development to work on LS, they obviously had a reason to do so ... and it's  not because they didn't want raids to be successful, sustainably developed content. Don't put the cart before the horse here. If Anet pulled all raid development resources into LW ... it's because raids were ALREADY a failure. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Make raids not require 10 people and more people would do them.

Make them with a solo level of difficulty and I guarantee that more people would play them. Then it would be worth it for Anet to invest resources for more raids.

 

Edit: The reactions to this post strongly resemble the stages of grief and acceptance.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except if Anet did pull all development to work on LS, they obviously had a reason to do so ... and it's  not because they didn't want raids to be successful, sustainably developed content. Don't put the cart before the horse here. If Anet pulled all raid development resources into LW ... it's because raids were ALREADY a failure. 

 

Yes, the reason was they were about to stop working on the game post season 4.

 

Now suddenly, all those game modes and areas which were neglected for a long time see new development. 

 

Or are you seriously going to deny that the game, the studio and the content delivered were mismanaged given the public available information we have?

 

Turns out, active development on the game even results in higher revenue, which given the last quarter, has been the highest since 2018. Even the esrnigs reports suggest mistakes were made in the past. 

 

I love your constant selective and heavily biased approach to issues. Try looking at the game development not through a lense but rather try to make use of all the information available.

 

Here some decision which we know were reverted later on, clearly indicating that the studio had to adapt:

- living world season 1. The idea of temporary content was scrapped in favor of repeatable content

- HoT difficulty on release and more important reward structure. Both were reworked in the months post release to make the content more appealing

- PoF reward structure. Was too reworked heavily to incentivise different player behavior

- cancelling T2 legendary weapons. Reverted due to outcry of the playerbase 

- Icebrood Saga. Cut short due to necessity of an expansion

- season 4 as finale for the game. No setup for an expansion as with S2 or S3. Inofficial quotes from past developers that considerations weere in place to end the story on that beat.

- Spvp and the lack of balance updates. Still not fixed, but often enough promised 

- WvW alliances, in the works for years.

- strike CMs as raid equivalent content promised, after years of no new raids.

 

I could go on, but let's keep this short. The argument that something was cancelled  being an indicator that it worked or didn't work is absolutely kitten at this point. The studio has had to "fix" so many decisions in the past that thus argument carries 0 weight.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Raids are dead content along with dungeons, pvp, and wvw. Next on the list will be fractals and then everyone will be forced to play the ultimate end game content of living world and infusion meta-event trains.

[Swagger.1459]

15 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Nah, I'm looking forward to strike CMs and the discussion those will create IF they are raid equivalent, because the same people whining about raids over the years will be the first to come here and do the same about that content.

If not (aka strike CMs are not raid equivalent and not successful in engaging players who enjoy challenging content), not a big loss. The hardcore PvE community has moved on already anyway. The game will get carried by the more casual crowed then or eventually lose resources down the road.

The question then becomes: if strike CMs are just as raids, solve little to none of the issues, because those are not issues which can get solved via simple difficult slider, yet are successful, does that mean the reason raids failed was the lack of releases? If so, was this entire forum drama about toxicity and gating meaningless? Let's wait and see shall we?

Just wondering, what part of the devs comments did you not understand?
 

Yeah, the so called “hard core” players carry this game and surely crash and burn without them lol

 

And being so mmo savvy, you sure don’t know that your so called “hard core” players, along with people who prefer pvp, are the vast minority of gamers across all games, both past and present. 
 

Do you even know what the concepts and meanings of “difficulty settings” are? If so, give me some examples? Should be easy for someone as experienced as you. 

[Swagger.1459]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Yes, the reason was they were about to stop working on the game post season 4.

 

Now suddenly, all those game modes and areas which were neglected for a long time see new development. 

 

Or are you seriously going to deny that the game, the studio and the content delivered were mismanaged given the public available information we have?

 

Turns out, active development on the game even results in higher revenue, which given the last quarter, has been the highest since 2018. Even the esrnigs reports suggest mistakes were made in the past. 

 

I love your constant selective and heavily biased approach to issues. Try looking at the game development not through a lense but rather try to make use of all the information available.

 

Here some decision which we know were reverted later on, clearly indicating that the studio had to adapt:

- living world season 1. The idea of temporary content was scrapped in favor of repeatable content

- HoT difficulty on release and more important reward structure. Both were reworked in the months post release to make the content more appealing

- PoF reward structure. Was too reworked heavily to incentivise different player behavior

- cancelling T2 legendary weapons. Reverted due to outcry of the playerbase 

- Icebrood Saga. Cut short due to necessity of an expansion

- season 4 as finale for the game. No setup for an expansion as with S2 or S3. Inofficial quotes from past developers that considerations weere in place to end the story on that beat.

- Spvp and the lack of balance updates. Still not fixed, but often enough promised 

- WvW alliances, in the works for years.

- strike CMs as raid equivalent content promised, after years of no new raids.

 

I could go on, but let's keep this short. The argument that something was cancelled  being an indicator that it worked or didn't work is absolutely kitten at this point. The studio has had to "fix" so many decisions in the past that thus argument carries 0 weight.

 

Are you sure you are following dev posts and game updates?
 

I’m posting this again to help you…

 

”Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the smallaudience they attract.”

 

Then, the devs invested in “strikes” and those other group missions seeking alternatives.

 

And when you understand business, then you don’t throw money at a product or service that only a small number of people use. That’s called common sense. You reinvest that time and money somewhere more profitable. Understand? 

Edit- Or are you under the impression that it’s a wise business decision to continue wasting money on a failing product or service? 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Cyninja.2954]

22 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Just wondering, what part of the devs comments did you not understand?
 

Yeah, the so called “hard core” players carry this game and surely crash and burn without them lol

I never said the hard core players are carrying the game. I do get how someone can read into that who is not invested in multiple communities believing that a MMORPG must serve only 1 player type.

You can laugh all you want, but that won't change realities that this game would face the moment multiple niche communities have completely disappeared. Spvp was pretty much the first to go and that part of the game has been taken over by bots. Doesn't make the game more attractive overall to players, no matter if they actually spvp or not and it certainly doesn't make for good headlines.

Quote

 

And being so mmo savvy, you sure don’t know that your so called “hard core” players, along with people who prefer pvp, are the vast minority of gamers across all games, both past and present. 

 

See above.

Quote

Do you even know what the concepts and meanings of “difficulty settings” are? If so, give me some examples? Should be easy for someone as experienced as you. 

 

Nah, I've entertained you enough. Wouldn't matter anyway, you are set in your opinion and it wouldn't make a difference to the games development one bit.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954