Are raids really gone in EoD?

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

 

Are you sure you are following dev posts and game updates?
 

I’m posting this again to help you…

 

”Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the smallaudience they attract.”

Yes, so while raids, and let's for once leave out the different opinions one might have on WHY raids failed, some of which have NOTHING to do with the content, all I see is the developers stating that they want to hold on to the players which enjoy this content.

That or it's just business terminology to fool players for as long as possible.

What it does NOT suggest is that challenging group content is off the table.

Which will be clear once the content IS actually live, and if it doesn't deliver, well again not a big loss. Most of the players enjoying such content are gone already.

Quote

Then, the devs invested in “strikes” and those other group missions seeking alternatives.

The developers invested in strikes and achieved near none of the goals they had set forth, as was predicted by some players. That is IF the goal was to make strikes an introduction to raids.

 

Quote

 

And when you understand business, then you don’t throw money at a product or service that only a small number of people use. That’s called common sense. You reinvest that time and money somewhere more profitable. Understand? 

 

 

 

I understand business well enough. I also understand that this game and the development which goes into it has been through multiple hoops by now. Which is all I said in regards to Obtenas's constant "the developers know best" argument because quite frankly, they have made mistakes in the past over and over.

 

That said, and I have mentioned where the benefits of difficulty settings are, seems the developers are not as willing to let the hardcore crowd go, why else would there be this large amount of focus on telling players that strike CMs are coming and are developed much the same way as raids have been?

Edited November 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Swagger.1459]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I never said the hard core players care carrying the game. I do get how someone can read into that who is not invested in multiple communities believing that a MMORPG must serve only 1 player type.

 

You can laugh all you want, but that won't change realities that this game would face the moment multiple niche communities have completely disappeared. Spvp was pretty much the first to go and that part of the game has been taken over by bots. Doesn't make the game more attractive overall to players.

See above.

 

Nah, I've entertained you enough. Wouldn't matter anyway, you are set in your opinion and it wouldn't make a difference to the games development one bit.

You are certainly implying that the so called “hard core” community helps carry this game, when in fact they don’t.

The “niche” communities could disappear from many games and it won’t have some great impact like you assume lol. Billions of casual players make up the bulk of gamers across almost every game in this genre. 

 

You can’t answer it because you don’t know. Period.
 

You think just making more raids is the solution, when that’s the farthest from the truth. Yeah, just make more raids and waste developer time and money on a mode that only a minuscule portion of the player base participates in… What kind of thinking is that? 

[AliamRationem.5172]

17 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

 

Are you sure you are following dev posts and game updates?
 

I’m posting this again to help you…

 

”Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the smallaudience they attract.”

 

Then, the devs invested in “strikes” and those other group missions seeking alternatives.

 

And when you understand business, then you don’t throw money at a product or service that only a small number of people use. That’s called common sense. You reinvest that time and money somewhere more profitable. Understand? 

Edit- Or are you under the impression that it’s a wise business decision to continue wasting money on a failing product or service? 

 

I believe this game has a casual player base and that open world/story content is the major draw for them.  However, that does not mean you can support only those things and keep this game going.  We saw what happened when they abandoned everything for the story with IBS.  That doesn't work either.

[Swagger.1459]

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, so while raids, and let's for once leave out the different opinions one might have on WHY raids failed, some of which have NOTHING to do with the content, all I see is the developers stating that they want to hold on to the players which enjoy this content.

That or it's just business terminology to fool players for as long as possible.

What it does NOT suggest is that challenging group content is off the table.

Which will be clear once the content IS actually live, and if it doesn't deliver, well again not a big loss. Most of the players enjoying such content are gone already.

The developers invested in strikes and achieved near none of the goals they had set forth, as was predicted by some players. That is IF the goal was to make strikes an introduction to raids.

 

 

I understand business well enough. I also understand that this game and the development which goes into it has been through multiple hoops by now. Which is all I said in regards to Obtenas's constant "the developers know best" argument because quite frankly, they have made mistakes in the past over and over.

 

That said, and I have mentioned where the benefits of difficulty settings are, seems the developers are not as willing to let the hardcore crowd go, why else would there be this large amount of focus on telling players that strike CMs are coming and are developed much the same way as raids have been?

The devs use statistics to determine raid participation. There isn’t a mystery. That’s why raids were canned. Was a waste of dev time and resources. Understand? 
 

In lieu of raids, they were experimenting with strikes… that’s like old news…. Do you even follow the devs comments? 
 

No, in fact, you don’t know. Otherwise you could easily pop off an example list with your vast mmo experience. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

You are certainly implying that the so called “hard core” community helps carry this game, when in fact they don’t.

The “niche” communities could disappear from many games and it won’t have some great impact like you assume lol. Billions of casual players make up the bulk of gamers across almost every game in this genre. 

 

You can’t answer it because you don’t know. Period.

No, I can't answer that. I am biased just as everyone is.

 

I am using as much data as possible to me to make educated assumptions, which too are subjective. As far as casual, well we know where the game went revenue wise when everything was off the table with IBS. Turns out, catering to diverse players content wise made the revenue go back up. That and a LOT of promises which still have to be full-filled.

6 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

You think just making more raids is the solution, when that’s the farthest from the truth. Yeah, just make more raids and waste developer time and money on a mode that only a minuscule portion of the player base participates in… What kind of thinking is that? 

 

No, we are far past just "making more raids". That was something which might have worked in the past to keep the community alive. Also developing more raids at minimal resource cost while keeping them NOT MANDATORY would have been imo still the better approach.

 

What we get now though is likely mandatory instanced content with multiple difficulties (and boy were players happy with that when faced the first time in the IBS, remember the dozens of pages about Forging Steel? I do), but sure, let's pretend this is a better idea because it fits your personal subjective preference.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

The devs use statistics to determine raid participation. There isn’t a mystery. That’s why raids were canned. Was a waste of dev time and resources. Understand? 

This game was meant to sidelined. UNDERSTAND?

The studio made multiple mistakes. Recuperating from those mistakes costs more developer resources than not commiting them in the first place. That's where we are at atm.

In fact, the game and studio are currently working with borrowed time (and finances) given the huge reinvestment from NCSoft 2 years back, half a year after the layoffs. Suffice to say, most decisions made in the last 3 years, which lead to a constant decline in revenue, were questionable at best.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This game was meant to sidelined. UNDERSTAND?

The studio made multiple mistakes. Recuperating from those mistakes costs more developer resources than not commiting them in the first place. That's where we are at atm.

In fact, the game and studio are currently working with borrowed time (and finances) given the huge reinvestment from NCSoft 2 years back, half a year after the layoffs. Suffice to say, most decisions made in the last 3 years, which lead to a constant decline in revenue, were questionable at best.

“While designers have to worry about wrangling that sense of challenge within a raid group, they also have to accommodate different degrees of player skill. Over the past decade, many MMOs have introduced difficulty settings for their raids, which allows the game to appeal to both the highly skilled guilds competing to become the first in the world to slay the archfiend, and the more casual groups that Hazzikostas calls the “Friday night beer run crowd.”

 

And you’re still stuck in circles blaming players for not “adapting” and using various other excuses that have nothing to do with why raids failed in GW2. You can’t even articulate the various methods and designs that mmo developers have used and use to attract broader audiences to try raid type content, yet you are dismissive of the positive impact of those methods… of which anet decided not to implement. 
 

Yeah. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Swagger.1459 said:

“While designers have to worry about wrangling that sense of challenge within a raid group, they also have to accommodate different degrees of player skill. Over the past decade, many MMOs have introduced difficulty settings for their raids, which allows the game to appeal to both the highly skilled guilds competing to become the first in the world to slay the archfiend, and the more casual groups that Hazzikostas calls the “Friday night beer run crowd.”

 

And you’re still stuck in circles blaming players for not “adapting” and using various other excuses that have nothing to do with why raids failed in GW2. You can’t even articulate the various methods and designs that mmo developers have used and use to attract broader audiences to try raid type content, yet you are dismissive of the positive impact of those methods… of which anet decided not to implement. 
 

Yeah. 

It's pretty funny that you're circling around raid/strikes threads and try to blame people for that content ""not being developed"" (or being changed/improved/rebranded, because that's what's happening with strikes in EoD as far as we know right now and it's time for you to stop pretending it's not being developed, while we're getting more -apparently close to raid level- strikes), while you're someone who just doesn't touch that content in the first place.

Why are you even here? "free rewards plox"? Cool -learn and complete the content if you want to get the rewards since you have every tool you need to do that, that's all there is to it.

 

Really, if anyone's "stuck in circles" here, it's you with your "BAD ELITISTS!" non-responses (or rather baseless accusations), when it was explained again and again that anyone wanting to get into raids can quite easly do that. If you want to get carried for rewards, it's not some "ELITISTS!" fault, it's your broken attitude.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Shaogin.2679]

I want to start by clearing up some misconceptions about the raiding community. First of all, there is still a healthy population of players that are raiding. I am part of the Raid Academy Discord, and every day I come home and see 90+ messages of people forming raid groups all day every day. This is actually pretty impressive considering this is only one Discord channel, and as such doesn't include all the raiders from other Discords, guilds, lfg pugs, and the fact that we haven't had a new raid released in years. These are just the people from a single raid community that are still running the same old content for years now.

 

Second, everyone seems to just assume the entire community is toxic as hell and that it is impossible for a new raider to get into raiding. I have been raiding off and on since HoT, and I can't stress enough how incredibly rare it is for me to run into toxic players, much less a toxic group. I don't join those uber experienced perfect clear groups, but I choose to have a more relaxed environment. However, I don't look down on those groups either for simply playing the game the way they choose to play. There are so many members of the raiding community (especially on Discord groups such as Raid Academy) that simply want to enjoy the game mode and are willing to train newer raiders. Hell, the last couple of raids I ran, I was super drunk, posted a training run in lfg, made some new friends, and we all had a great time and killed the first two bosses of the wing we ran. The community is incredibly helpful and they have put so much work into creating guides and dedicating entire communities just to help people out.

 

Now, with that said, I don't think the direction they are going with these new strike missions is bad. The way I see it, strikes would replace raids the way fractals replaced dungeons. It will be more bite sized content that will be easier for the casual community to complete. With the introduction of CM strikes, there will potentially still be new content for the more hard-core players to be interested in as well. Also, there is still the potential for strikes to provide meaningful story content, and a wider portion of the player base will get to experience that story. Honestly, I think it is a great move on Anet's part and I'm looking forward to it so long as it is properly implemented. 

[Swagger.1459]

Get your facts right next time… 

 

”Now had the devs put in difficulty settings, which other mmo have utilized, more people would be playing raids and the devs could have justified supporting it better.

 

We brought up many ideas of difficulty settings, requested difficulty settings, and various adjustments to raids thousands and thousands of times. Ignored. Not done. Certain players didn’t want difficulty settings in their “elite content”, so now they don’t get raids anymore.”

 

Full raid legendary armor.

 

Raids are done. Strikes are the content they develop. This thread is about raids, or you don’t know the difference? 
 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Get your facts right next time… 

Which ones? Quote specifically what you're talking about in my post and where "my facts" aren't "right".

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Raids are done. Strikes are the content they develop. This thread is about raids, or you don’t know the difference? 

Strikes are basically rebranded/improved raids. So no, I don't see much of a difference and I don't count the name change -but I do count how the content plays.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Which ones? Quote specifically what you're talking about in my post and where "my facts" aren't "right".

Strikes are basically rebranded/improved raids. So no, I don't see much of a difference and I don't count the name change -but I do count how the content plays.

And those are the facts… or are you another one of those “adapt” people? 
 

Like how you skipped a quote because it didn’t fit your narrative about rewards.

 

Another fact. Raid development stopped. Strikes were the alternative stepping stones. Strikes aren’t raids, don’t confuse the 2. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Sobx.1758]

24 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

And those are the facts… or are you another one of those “adapt” people?

I just repetead what I said in my previous post and you say those are the facts. I agree those are the facts, but for some reason you told me to "get them right" before? So what exactly was wrong about what I said? For now it seems like... not much?

24 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Another fact. Raid development stopped. Strikes were the alternative stepping stones. Strikes aren’t raids, don’t confuse the 2. 

"Strikes were stepping stones", but currently they'll be adding "strikes with raid difficulty", sooooo.... What's the issue here? Renaming? Oh no.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:24 AM, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Right now the biggest differing factor between Raids and Strikes is simply the different wings, aside from that they practically work in the same manner, and since we already have people recruiting only certain LI for Strikes, it's definitely melding into one entity. 

If EOD ends up retaining both The Deep and Urgoz's Warren from GW1, they should be considered Raids, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're considered a Strike Mission at this point, especially since Forging Steel and Cold War are both Strike Missions but they feel very Raid like. 

Forging Steel and Cold War feel nothing like raids. You barely have to think in either of them.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

5 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Forging Steel and Cold War feel nothing like raids. You barely have to think in either of them.

I meant that in a sense that there's actually something of a mechanic involved to do in them. Most cases we ignore em cuz Strike Missions have essentially boiled down to Easy Mode Raids. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I meant that in a sense that there's actually something of a mechanic involved to do in them. Most cases we ignore em cuz Strike Missions have essentially boiled down to Easy Mode Raids. 

You can skip most, if not all, mechanics with healing and stability. You cannot do the same in raids. Harpoons are the only exception to this.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

Just now, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You can skip most, if not all, mechanics with healing and stability. You cannot do the same in raids. Harpoons are the only exception to this.

I know, like I said, they added mechanics to it, but because it's meant to be a bridge to Raids, the mechanics are optional, so they are essentially pointless once you realize how easy it is to actually run them. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

11 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I know, like I said, they added mechanics to it, but because it's meant to be a bridge to Raids, the mechanics are optional, so they are essentially pointless once you realize how easy it is to actually run them. 

It really does feel like an extension of the open world more than a raid bridge, doesn't it?

[Ashantara.8731]

There has been no official word on possible new Raid wings in the future, so why the grim demeanor?

Enhanced Strike Missions will be part of EoD, and that's good, because a lot of people prefer the shorter content (compared to a full Raid wing), yet also love a higher challenge, which those new Strikes will hopefully provide.

That doesn't say anything on the future of Raids. There might still be new wings after EoD.

[Xenash.1245]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:11 AM, Zuldari.3940 said:

We have not heard one thing about raid development for End of Dragons, we hear about strikes and CM strikes. That is very disappointing and telling. Strikes in no way replace raids, even now only a small part of the community do strikes, do you expect them to be popular in EoD? Do you think the raiding community will swap to strikes and forget raids? No they wont, they will just leave or continue doing the raids now until burnout then leave. Anet should have kept a raid developer and designer believe it or not they do have a good percentage of players that raid. Strikes have no draw no depth. Just a quickie for when you need the daily. 

Well maybe the raiding community should of tried to foster a friendlier environment to draw in more players and by extension give the devs more credence to developing the content. But no we all know even now that'll never happen outside of a few figured heads trying their best to bridge the gap between new/standard raiders.

Not even trying to blame anyone really, so please don't take it this way, I'm just trying to say the general raiding community dug their own grave over time.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Xenash.1245

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Or are you seriously going to deny that the game, the studio and the content delivered were mismanaged given the public available information we have?

Here is the thing ... mismanaged or not, what I do know is that Anet has no reason to desire Raids to fail. Again, the cart doesn't go before the horse.  WHATEVER the criteria was for Anet to decide raid failure was met, that definitely came BEFORE their decision to stop developing them. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zenli.3684]

10 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I meant that in a sense that there's actually something of a mechanic involved to do in them. Most cases we ignore em cuz Strike Missions have essentially boiled down to Easy Mode Raids. 

Strike mission are not easy raids, they are only stand alone boss encouters.

Raid are small stories, full of details, dialogs... people were not happy because these stories are locked behind difficult group content and worse for W1-3 that are part of the LS main story.

I started raiding a few months ago and that level of content  just blew  my mind and particulary the W4  and W6.

Glenna is so annoying but that "C'est pas ma faute" in French localisation after Cairn  is just a masterpiece.

I'm quite happy for eaiser and more accessible and repeatable content but now I'm also sad that so many people can't  get that amazing existing content with more difficulty scaling. 

 

 

[Swagger.1459]

On 11/16/2021 at 3:02 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

I just repetead what I said in my previous post and you say those are the facts. I agree those are the facts, but for some reason you told me to "get them right" before? So what exactly was wrong about what I said? For now it seems like... not much?

"Strikes were stepping stones", but currently they'll be adding "strikes with raid difficulty", sooooo.... What's the issue here? Renaming? Oh no.

 

On 11/16/2021 at 11:01 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

It's pretty funny that you're circling around raid/strikes threads and try to blame people for that content ""not being developed"" (or being changed/improved/rebranded, because that's what's happening with strikes in EoD as far as we know right now and it's time for you to stop pretending it's not being developed, while we're getting more -apparently close to raid level- strikes), while you're someone who just doesn't touch that content in the first place.

Why are you even here? "free rewards plox"? Cool -learn and complete the content if you want to get the rewards since you have every tool you need to do that, that's all there is to it.

 

Really, if anyone's "stuck in circles" here, it's you with your "BAD ELITISTS!" non-responses (or rather baseless accusations), when it was explained again and again that anyone wanting to get into raids can quite easly do that. If you want to get carried for rewards, it's not some "ELITISTS!" fault, it's your broken attitude.

Yeah, looks like you agree lol. And yes, strikes and raids are the same thing with a different name... Do you even play this game? 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Yeah, looks like you agree lol. And yes, strikes and raids are the same thing with a different name... Do you even play this game? 

Yup, do you? And when you say "the same", I guess you've missed the part where I mention changing/improving. The core idea of a 10-player squad having boss encounters on a raid-difficulty-level remains the same according to what we know right now and that's the point here, whatever you'd like to pretend.

Asking me "if I even play this game" when all you do here is complain about content you don't even play, because you want the rewards handed to you is pretty funny, I'll give you that.

 

(I don't know what your point is in re-quoting two of my posts here btw, since you didn't add anything new, so make sure to explain. For now everything I said there remains true, including description of your wierd hobby of orbiting raid/strike threads just to blame others for your lack of willingness to learn the content 🤷‍♂️ )

Edited November 17, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

 I didn't miss anything. You don't know the difference between raids and strikes, all you are hung up on is the future "difficulty". Go do some and find out.

 

Oh so your argument now is getting to the desperate phase... So now I just want rewards handed to me and I'm not willing to do the content? I have like 28k achies. Over 20+ Legendary items and raid legendary armor. Crafted or earned over 300+ ascended pieces across 20 characters. Over 2k rank in wvw as a roamer when I'm bored. Done all game content. I got everything I want for characters and out of this game... How about you? Or do you just sit on the forums not knowing much about the game at all?    

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Swagger.1459