Are raids really gone in EoD?

[Xanadrine.4352]

We have not heard one thing about raid development for End of Dragons, we hear about strikes and CM strikes. That is very disappointing and telling. Strikes in no way replace raids, even now only a small part of the community do strikes, do you expect them to be popular in EoD? Do you think the raiding community will swap to strikes and forget raids? No they wont, they will just leave or continue doing the raids now until burnout then leave. Anet should have kept a raid developer and designer believe it or not they do have a good percentage of players that raid. Strikes have no draw no depth. Just a quickie for when you need the daily. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[yoni.7015]

We don’t know how the new strike missions will be. I am pretty sure they will be better than the current ones. 
there is a EoD subforum. Why not post there? 

Edited November 13, 2021 by yoni.7015

[Xanadrine.4352]

5 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

We don’t know how the new strike missions will be. I am pretty sure they will be better than the current ones. 
there is a EoD subforum. Why not post there? 

Funny thing I thought I did, I was browsing the EoD forum when i clicked create topic. Please move moderators if you can.

[PseudoNewb.5468]

What kind of depth do raids have that 10 man advanced boss encounters alongside 1-5 player 'explorable'/story content instances can't do?

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I don't see the logic in having so many different forms of closed squad content that are similar but have a different label. Strike missions started out as a simple boss encounter but from the way they described it, it sounds like strike missions are expanding into being raids with a different name. I'm sure there is a bit of difference but is there really enough of a difference in EoD strike missions to no just go ahead and call them raids?

[fatihso.7258]

1 hour ago, PseudoNewb.5468 said:

What kind of depth do raids have that 10 man advanced boss encounters alongside 1-5 player 'explorable'/story content instances can't do?

Do full w5 and w6 to find out.

[patton the great.7126]

You say a good percentage of folks raid, I'd argue it's less than spvp which is already most likely less than 5% of the active player base. Raids were just to overly non casual for a game that has billed itself as the easiest and most casual friendly mmo on the market. Strikes( I have never done one) just sound so much easier for the average filthy casual schlub to play. THIS IS COMING FROM A WVW/spvp enjoyer. I've never been able to find a decent non toxic raid group. Probably because I always try to duel these beta nerds that preach damage meters over actual skill. Funny how they back down when they can't just youtube what they are fighting against without multiple pocket heals....teehee!

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

7 hours ago, Tekoneiric.6817 said:

I don't see the logic in having so many different forms of closed squad content that are similar but have a different label. Strike missions started out as a simple boss encounter but from the way they described it, it sounds like strike missions are expanding into being raids with a different name. I'm sure there is a bit of difference but is there really enough of a difference in EoD strike missions to no just go ahead and call them raids?

Right now the biggest differing factor between Raids and Strikes is simply the different wings, aside from that they practically work in the same manner, and since we already have people recruiting only certain LI for Strikes, it's definitely melding into one entity. 

If EOD ends up retaining both The Deep and Urgoz's Warren from GW1, they should be considered Raids, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're considered a Strike Mission at this point, especially since Forging Steel and Cold War are both Strike Missions but they feel very Raid like. 

[Asum.4960]

10 hours ago, PseudoNewb.5468 said:

What kind of depth do raids have that 10 man advanced boss encounters alongside 1-5 player 'explorable'/story content instances can't do?

What makes Raids imo the best and most ambitious (and in depth) content Anet has done to this day (next to Fractal CM's) is the combination of everything from exploration/vistas, story, setpieces and mechanics/challenge, it's a complete package which you just don't get anywhere else in the game. 

They actually remind me more of GW1 Story missions, especially in Hard mode, than anything else in GW2. 

Story missions in GW2 have the setpieces and everything, but just feel almost entirely disconnected from gameplay and mechanics. Big story bads can just be auto attacked or bursted in seconds (by proficient players) and just lack any excitement or rewarding feeling for learning and overcoming those encounters. 

Nothing feels like a threat and it's hard to tell an engaging story if even literal gods in the game world you can just walk up to and sneeze over. Unlike GW1, story in GW2 also lacks any coordination and communication with other players, which is at the heart of any MMO - and there are far more engaging single player games with more depth in stories, characters and choices.

 

Something like Strikes provide some of the mechanical challenge (although no where near enough, but we will see with EoD CM's), but so far lack any and all exploration, vistas, story or setpieces - something I also hope will change with EoD, at least when it comes to the setpieces/arenas. 

 

What they did fantastically with Raids is making these encounters actually feel like a part of the world of Tyria. Not only are they locations on the map, but also when you step into setpieces like Samarog's Lair, the game makes you feel like you are doing exactly that. It's not just a portal you step through into a bland circle with a boss in there. 

Set pieces like the Twin Largos, Qadim 1&2, Soulless Horror, the River of Souls, Xera, the Caridnals etc. (and the mechanics/gameplay implications and interactions that come with them), that's just not something you can find or experience anywhere else in the game. 

 

Now what killed Raids was the community just getting one Raid Wing per ~year, which is just no where near enough to keep people engaged. They could have maybe slowed down to that pace once they had ~10 Raid Wings in place already, so players would have had enough variety to play and choose from on a weekly basis to reduce burnout, but certainly not after just 3 Wings. 

Strikes being just about 1/10 of the effort of a Raid Wing have the advantage there and can work if instead of one Raid Wing they release ~6-10 Strikes a year, but obviously what we got was far from that as well. 

 

I'm still not writing Strikes off until I see what they do with them in EoD though - if they finally integrate endgame into the content pipeline and reuse/combine the assets and setpieces they create to make both Story and Endgame out of them to appeal to a greater variety of players, and finally utilizing GW2 biggest strength (being an MMO with some of the, if not the best gameplay systems) rather than just it's weak points (being a single player story game), then that's imo going to be great for the game.

Although I doubt Raids will ever be surpassed by anything in GW2 in terms of Quality in being the whole cohesive package of gameplay, story and setpieces, if we get enough of (better than current) Strikes to maintain a community, that's a price worth paying - especially if the alternative is nothing at all.

[Vayne.8563]

Where did you get the idea that a good percentage of players raid?  Because it seems to contradict what a dev stated.

[Pirogen.9561]

2 hours ago, patton the great.7126 said:

You say a good percentage of folks raid, I'd argue it's less than spvp which is already most likely less than 5% of the active player base. Raids were just to overly non casual for a game that has billed itself as the easiest and most casual friendly mmo on the market. Strikes( I have never done one) just sound so much easier for the average filthy casual schlub to play. THIS IS COMING FROM A WVW/spvp enjoyer. I've never been able to find a decent non toxic raid group. Probably because I always try to duel these beta nerds that preach damage meters over actual skill. Funny how they back down when they can't just youtube what they are fighting against without multiple pocket heals....teehee!

Can't find the post, but I do remember, that one of the devs basicaly said that such a small number of players do raids, that they(devs) don't know if they should invest much(if anything) into raids.

Raids cost a lot of money to develop, and then only a very small number of players do it. So why bother? Better to invest into content that most players enjoy.

[Raknar.4735]

1 hour ago, Pirogen.9561 said:

Can't find the post, but I do remember, that one of the devs basicaly said that such a small number of players do raids, that they(devs) don't know if they should invest much(if anything) into raids.

Raids cost a lot of money to develop, and then only a very small number of players do it. So why bother? Better to invest into content that most players enjoy.

Here it is.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

What makes Raids imo the best and most ambitious (and in depth) content Anet has done to this day (next to Fractal CM's) is the combination of everything from exploration/vistas, story, setpieces and mechanics/challenge, it's a complete package which you just don't get anywhere else in the game. 

They actually remind me more of GW1 Story missions, especially in Hard mode, than anything else in GW2. 

Story missions in GW2 have the setpieces and everything, but just feel almost entirely disconnected from gameplay and mechanics. Big story bads can just be auto attacked or bursted in seconds (by proficient players) and just lack any excitement or rewarding feeling for learning and overcoming those encounters. 

Nothing feels like a threat and it's hard to tell an engaging story if even literal gods in the game world you can just walk up to and sneeze over. Unlike GW1, story in GW2 also lacks any coordination and communication with other players, which is at the heart of any MMO - and there are far more engaging single player games with more depth in stories, characters and choices.

 

Something like Strikes provide some of the mechanical challenge (although no where near enough, but we will see with EoD CM's), but so far lack any and all exploration, vistas, story or setpieces - something I also hope will change with EoD, at least when it comes to the setpieces/arenas. 

 

What they did fantastically with Raids is making these encounters actually feel like a part of the world of Tyria. Not only are they locations on the map, but also when you step into setpieces like Samarog's Lair, the game makes you feel like you are doing exactly that. It's not just a portal you step through into a bland circle with a boss in there. 

Set pieces like the Twin Largos, Qadim 1&2, Soulless Horror, the River of Souls, Xera, the Caridnals etc. (and the mechanics/gameplay implications and interactions that come with them), that's just not something you can find or experience anywhere else in the game. 

 

Now what killed Raids was the community just getting one Raid Wing per ~year, which is just no where near enough to keep people engaged. They could have maybe slowed down to that pace once they had ~10 Raid Wings in place already, so players would have had enough variety to play and choose from on a weekly basis to reduce burnout, but certainly not after just 3 Wings. 

Strikes being just about 1/10 of the effort of a Raid Wing have the advantage there and can work if instead of one Raid Wing they release ~6-10 Strikes a year, but obviously what we got was far from that as well. 

 

I'm still not writing Strikes off until I see what they do with them in EoD though - if they finally integrate endgame into the content pipeline and reuse/combine the assets and setpieces they create to make both Story and Endgame out of them to appeal to a greater variety of players, and finally utilizing GW2 biggest strength (being an MMO with some of the, if not the best gameplay systems) rather than just it's weak points (being a single player story game), then that's imo going to be great for the game.

Although I doubt Raids will ever be surpassed by anything in GW2 in terms of Quality in being the whole cohesive package of gameplay, story and setpieces, if we get enough of (better than current) Strikes to maintain a community, that's a price worth paying - especially if the alternative is nothing at all.

That's an across-the-board problem, unfortunately.  This game has never pushed out enough content.  Content gets abandoned and even supported content can go a year or more without seeing any development at all.  We desperately need new everything in every mode, but what we'll get will probably fall far short of that.

[Myror.7521]

Idk man for me strikes are ways better than raids. Why ? Well cause of the community. The raid community seems to be Toxic af (even more toxic than the pvp one what is not so easy to be). You dont have 250 of this? Just leave Group! You do 1k damage less then needed? Just kicked. Sry but strikes are ways funnier to me since they dont have many kps. (And after eod they will have 3 modes what made them ways more interesting to me)

Edited November 14, 2021 by Pati.2438

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

On 11/14/2021 at 12:27 PM, Asum.4960 said:

Now what killed Raids was the community just getting one Raid Wing per ~year, which is just no where near enough to keep people engaged. They could have maybe slowed down to that pace once they had ~10 Raid Wings in place already, so players would have had enough variety to play and choose from on a weekly basis to reduce burnout, but certainly not after just 3 Wings. 

Wut ?

The wing 4 should have been released in the late Octomber-November 2016 , but it was pushed in February 2017  , because they where making the 3rd expanion .

Even the rest of the game had this content  draught .

4 raids in 15 months , is the basic for other mmos (like WoW) 🙂

 

( "dont put all the hopes in strikes" . The majority wont care. Everything leads to Open world 10man bosses.

Use Roman tactics for this expac ... waste more in next , loop )

Edited November 14, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Mizuira.8245]

There are no new raids, of course people don't play them and devs will see more players on Strike or open PvE. Same as PvP, no new game mode, no more E-sport so less players are doing it. You really think people don't play dungeons nowadays because they don't like dungeons?

Give the community some raids, at least 2 per year and you will see players doing it. But we are talking about ArenaNet, they were more than 300 people and unable to do something more than some stories missions and open PvE events. I don't even know how it is possible to be that much and never been able to add dungeons, fractals, raids, PvP modes, etc  at a regular rythm... 😅

Edited November 14, 2021 by Mizuira.8245

[Blocki.4931]

They fully intent for strike bosses challenge modes to be as difficult as raid encounters. Honestly, that's a good way of moving forward. Strikes also don't have to only be an encounter, there can be pre-events like raids too if they really wanted to.

They are far more accessible too. No need to have an opener, anybody can just start them etc.

[Super Hayes.6890]

They are adding difficulty modes aren't they? Doesn't that mean they are simply merging raids and strikes under one mode moving foreward? Makes more sense imo.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

Idk man for me strikes are ways better than strikes. Why ? Well cause of the community. The raid community seems to be Toxic af (even more toxic than the pvp one what is not so easy to be). You dont have 250 of this? Just leave Group! You do 1k damage less then needed? Just kicked. Sry but strikes are ways funnier to me since they dont have many kps. (And after eod they will have 3 modes what made them ways more interesting to me)

Having requirements for groups that they create and run isn’t toxic. 

[Myror.7521]

@mythical.6315 not exactly but get kicked cause you have idk 10 mats left to reach the 250 mark is it. Or kicked cause of one mechanic mistake is absolutly toxic and thats litterly what they do.

[Cyndercat.7615]

2 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@mythical.6315 not exactly but get kicked cause you have idk 10 mats left to reach the 250 mark is it. Or kicked cause of one mechanic mistake is absolutly toxic and thats litterly what they do.

I have never seen that outside of speed clear reset runs, even then the 250 LI clears will allow1-2 mistakes without kick generally. Only reasons Ive seen people kicked regularly are constantly messing up basic mechanics, like 3+ times and doing less damage than the supports.

[mythical.6315]

8 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@mythical.6315 not exactly but get kicked cause you have idk 10 mats left to reach the 250 mark is it. Or kicked cause of one mechanic mistake is absolutly toxic and thats litterly what they do.

Do you feel that companies with job requirements are toxic?  Do you feel that companies who enforce those requirements and subsequently let go those who fail to meet their standards as toxic?

[Sigmoid.7082]

8 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

 get kicked cause you have idk 10 mats left to reach the 250 mark is it. 

I wouldn't consider this toxic. If someone sets a requirement for their group they are well within their rights to remove someone at their discretion if they don't meet that requirement, regardless of how close or how petty the person trying to join thinks it is. 

[LucianDK.8615]

Raids is only used by a minority of the playerbase, not really cost effective to develop for a minority. Wow had the same issue, the result was looking for raid difficulty, or there wouldve been no more raids.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Raids is only used by a minority of the playerbase, not really cost effective to develop for a minority. Wow had the same issue, the result was looking for raid difficulty, or there wouldve been no more raids.

That's the problem with this game. If it isn't story or open world it doesn't get dev time.  1 fractal every year or two? Conquest4lyfe in PvP? They've literally been blowing smoke about wvw for years.

If EoD is going to build a future for this game it can't just be about open world and story.