Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

How exactly is Mirage Cloak "stationary"? You can freely move while dodging with Mirage Cloak, with the added benefit of not having to move while dodging, enabling all those other game mechanic circumventing benefits. 

 

 

You can list all unique profession mechanics you want, that's not going to change how the unique properties of Mirage Cloak (being invulnerable while being able to attack, stomp, ress, point capture, ignore CC and with that punish skillfull play etc.) was an incredibly problematic thing to add to the game which inherently breaks some mechanical design rules of GW2, all in form of a Minor Trait spec feature that previously had zero tradeoff. 

 

And let's not ignore how Mirages were literally casually winning 1v4's at their peak in Plat 2+, until for 3+ seasons straight I had 3+ mirages every match at that time, which got so ridiculous that I started to track match outcomes during the 2 dodge CI Mirage days, and the team with the most Mirages turned out to be a 95% accurate win prediction for my well over 100 P2-3 games over those months leading up to it's nerfs. 

That build was imo the most damaging thing to the PvP scene since Bunker Chrono.

 

Anyway, since balance Devs like CMC are on record on stream as recent as this month talking about how insanely broken Mirage Cloak is and what a bad idea it was to add to the game, it's not like you have much of an argument here, least of all to have with me.

Dude exactly my point, people who don't play high gold or plat (where i normally am) wont understand how op mirage was and still is.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You can also try to ignore the fact that all the unique elite profession mechanics are strictly more powerful than the base ones. Mirage cloak isn't the only one, yet somehow it's the only one that needs a tradeoff while everyone else got a strict upgrade. 

 

Yeah, good job using top 1% players to illustrate how "OP" something is. It's supposed to be powerful in capable hands. Go watch scourge PvP footage of someone just using a mouse and never dying. That's not OP at all. And that's in a noob's hands. 

I never managed to 1v4 anyone. Neither have a lot of people. 

If you're going to illustrate how "op" something is, don't use top stats, most of us are at the average level, and here, Mirage never felt powerful. It felt "ok" compared to others and playable.

Nice misdirect, but my argument was never what you claim it to be. I just said we need 2 dodges back because it's one of the core features of the game, every AOE, every encounter, every skill timing is made with 2 in mind (and Vindicator gets around that in other ways before you try to use it as an argument), so ripping 1 dodge as a "balance move" was the dumbest idea Anet had for the game and gutted the class for no reason. 

And with all the nerfs mesmers in general recieved since then, losing a dodge hurts even more. Bringing it back has nothing to do with it being a Mirage cloak, but even with that "argument", 2 cloaks now would actually be balanced. 

 

But anway. I've seen that the contrarians have entered the thread, and this always starts going in circles because no matter what i say, the professional contrarians will always have to argue against it. 

 

And since i'm not into the whole circle arguing, i'm out.

Peace.

Then why is mirage still very popular in sPVP, especially staff.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

34 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Dude exactly my point, people who don't play high gold or plat (where i normally am) wont understand how op mirage was and still is.

How many people played mirage on ATs? 

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Dude exactly my point, people who don't play high gold or plat (where i normally am) wont understand how op mirage was and still is.

the reason why you dont understand why mirage is bad is because you are in gold, sorry not sorry but thats how it is.
I have not seen a single staff mesmer in high plat games, the best I could see is rupt sword condi mirage or some die hard power mirage enjoyer.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

The only problem with mirage was desert distortion. Being able to chain 2 dodges + 4s distortion into 4 mirage mirrors + signet of illusions into 4s distortion and 4 more mirage mirrors and dodging again -maybe even with vigor if you're playing with chaos, and the additional endurance you get from both sigil of energy and rune of adventure- was just out of control. But, and the thing is: the problem is desert distortion. 4 mirage mirrors, twice, are 6s invuln on top of a spec which is fairly hard to catch already; without those, it's still hard to catch but it is balanced.

Rework desert distortion, give mirage its second dodge. Mirage ambush is a strong mechanic, but trust me I'd take daredevil's 3 dodges over mirage ambush every day of the week.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The only problem with mirage was desert distortion. Being able to chain 2 dodges + 4s distortion into 4 mirage mirrors + signet of illusions into 4s distortion and 4 more mirage mirrors and dodging again -maybe even with vigor if you're playing with chaos, and the additional endurance you get from both sigil of energy and rune of adventure- was just out of control. But, and the thing is: the problem is desert distortion. 4 mirage mirrors, twice, are 6s invuln on top of a spec which is fairly hard to catch already; without those, it's still hard to catch but it is balanced.

Rework desert distortion, give mirage its second dodge. Mirage ambush is a strong mechanic, but trust me I'd take daredevil's 3 dodges over mirage ambush every day of the week.

I rather take mirage ambush over drd SA dash every day of the week

[Veprovina.4876]

10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

In which ways does the Vindicator Kit get around that single Dodge limitation more than the Mirage Kit with Distort, Axes of Symmetry, Sand Through Glass, Illusionary Ambush, Vigor and plentiful Mirage Mirror's granting essentially 7+ extra Evades to the Kit (+ Blinks, Detargets, Stealth, Clone Spam and Dodge)? 

Weaver, Mirage, Daredevil and Soulbeast are the specs with the most evades ingame, out of those, counting all sources of Mirage Cloak and Distort, (single dodge) Mirage is the one able to have the single most Evades out of all specs in the game on a skillbar at once.

 

See, now i know you're a troll and are arguing because you want to argue.

If you can't tell the difference between the two, then i can't help you, and you are officially disqualified from making any arguments against Mirage. 

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

See, now i know you're a troll and are arguing because you want to argue.

If you can't tell the difference between the two, then i can't help you, and you are officially disqualified from making any arguments against Mirage. 

Oh I can tell the difference between the two, just from my limited time with Vindicator not in a way that favours your point (especially now that Saint of zu Heltzer has already been tuned down in frequency) - which is why I was genuinely asking you to elaborate on the more extensive tools Vindicator has to circumvent one Dodge when compared to Mirage. 

 

Still feel free to answer when you are actually interested in a discussion, should you not be too busy calling me names or "officially disqualifying" me from talking. 

 

If you'd rather sit in an echo chamber of people unironically saying things like:

Quote

Mirage was already one of the professions with the least amount of dodges before they cut out one dodge.

Of a spec that can literally chain evades and invulns for 14 seconds+ at a time, while attacking, stomping etc. and having CC impunity even when making a mistake and getting caught, then, good luck and good day - I can't help you either.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Oh I can tell the difference between the two, just from my limited time with Vindicator not in a way that favours your point (especially now that Saint of zu Heltzer has already been tuned down in frequency) - which is why I was genuinely asking you to elaborate on the more extensive tools Vindicator has to circumvent one Dodge when compared to Mirage. 

 

Still feel free to answer when you are actually interested in a discussion, should you not be too busy calling me names or "officially disqualifying" me from talking. 

 

If you'd rather sit in an echo chamber of people unironically saying things like:

Of a spec that can literally chain evades and invulns for 14 seconds+ at a time, while attacking, stomping etc. and having CC impunity even when making a mistake and getting caught, then, good luck and good day - I can't help you either.

What are you - a golem? Because that chain only works on golems not on real fights. 

You know what else can chain evades but to infinity? DD, yet no one plays that build because it sucks balls. 

Hard CC impunity - fixed that for you, because soft cc still hurts, and there is other profession with immunity to soft cc. 

And by that impunity you mean the thing every mesmer on the planet said it should get removed when Pof launched, while everyone else was on a rampage that got every single mirage thing nerfed into the ground. 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 dodge mirage was a vindicator beta test
Change My Mind

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't like the single dodge on mirage.  It seems like a cop-out to try and fix the problems that Anet built into the spec.

The biggest reason why I want two dodges back on mirage is for build diversity.  The mirage is still as annoying as ever.  However, they only have one viable build right now (in WvW): Blurred Inscriptions + Desert Distortion.  Why this build?  Because... mirage only has one dodge, so the best way to stay alive is to abuse distortion mechanics as much as possible.  If you're not running this, then it is way too easy for mirage to get caught out and nuked down.  If Mirage had the normal number of dodges, then there would be more viable builds to run with them.

The more practical way to balance this spec would be to limit the access to mirage cloak from non-dodge sources.  I.E. the utilities and the traits.  As someone else said earlier in this thread, the problem is Desert Distortion.  It creates so many mirrors, and also lets you spam ambushes with Blurred Inscriptions.  If that trait were changed to something else, then the Mirage could get its second dodge back.  But, because of "tradeoffs", Anet decided the best thing to do was remove the dodge from Mirage.  

[Lethion.8745]

The problem is not that it has one-dodge. The problem is Mirage is not balanced around having 1 dodge.

[Zoser.7245]

30 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

The problem is not that it has one-dodge. The problem is Mirage is not balanced around having 1 dodge.

Then ask for improvements under the  PvP/WvW split balance but don't touch the PvE  2 dodges from the Mirage!!!  Because it will kill it there and end with three useless specializations,  Virtunada,  One Dodge Thing and in some way Chrononiche.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 11/28/2021 at 3:37 PM, Uvirith.9573 said:

Looking at the new rev spec which also has a single dodge, I doubt mirage will ever get reverted. 

I'm currently not home so I didn't really have time to read the whole thread. Regardless, I'd like to comment on this. 

 

Linking offense and defense to one single mechanic is bad if it is the main source of either. Which is the case for both Mirage and Vindicator to varying extent (let's honest, though... it is probably worse on Mirage). While I don't like the 1 Dodge thing. I don't think we will ever get the second one back. HOWEVER, looking at how many options Vindicator gets for recovering Endurance, Mirage should be reevaluated in this regard. The start being unnerfing core Mesmers Critical Infusion. Then let's go from there and preferably also move some power away from Mirage Mirrors as well.

[Zraurum.8493]

Let's take a look at what has been nerfed lately.
Сhaos vortex, reduced damage up to damage from auto attack.
Reduced the number of summoned clones, staff 3, scepter 2.
Reduced the Torment time of illusions.
Chaotic Interruption an absolutely meaningless skill. (used to give quickness when interrupt)
Reduced illusion defense to 2%.
Evasive Mirror increased cooldown.
Decreased time mirage cloak.
Removed one jaunt.
Damage from the axe was simply cut by 30%.
And after such nerfs, they also took away dodge! Don't you think this is overkill ?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Zraurum.8493

[Drascious.5714]

Mirage was another example of very bloated design philosophy in the PoF elite specs. Moving it to a single dodge was the right way to balance the class since the spec mechanic of the mirage mirrors easily gives you those dodges back. I'm pretty sure oriignally they just never considered dropping to a single dodge as a possible design choice but i think if mirage was designed now it would be given one dodge.

 

I would say that mirage cloak, fire brand tomes, scourge f skills, full counter, soulbeast f skills, photon forge, were all mis-designed at PoF release and still represent a big barrier for balancing those elite specs effectively. This is why the EoD elite specs seem a little underwhelming still because they are much closer to the HoT specs with much less bloated and more finely targeted features such as druid CA form, daredevil's triple dodge, berserker mode, tempest's overloads, and reaper shroud.

 

 

[Zraurum.8493]

And I still have a question for the balance team, and why. Renewing Oasis won't reduce poison time? Poison also deals damage, why isn't Renewing Oasis actually the most important element ?

[Drascious.5714]

40 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

 While I don't like the 1 Dodge thing. I don't think we will ever get the second one back. HOWEVER, looking at how many options Vindicator gets for recovering Endurance, Mirage should be reevaluated in this regard.

There's alot of alternate sources of mirage cloak across the utility skills and mirage cloak itself gets alot of effects tied to it through traits. Mirage also unlike Chrono gets to keep distortion which can also be traited to create a mirror. Mirrors last 8 seconds so its possible to play around them quite effectively and use them when needed. Remember mirage cloak also does not interrupt any action so is also much superior to a typical dodge just by that nature.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

39 minutes ago, Psykewne.3025 said:

There's alot of alternate sources of mirage cloak across the utility skills and mirage cloak itself gets alot of effects tied to it through traits. Mirage also unlike Chrono gets to keep distortion which can also be traited to create a mirror. Mirrors last 8 seconds so its possible to play around them quite effectively and use them when needed. Remember mirage cloak also does not interrupt any action so is also much superior to a typical dodge just by that nature.

Mirrors are garbage. They give away your movement and are easily countered unless you waste a movement skill to get there, the only mirrors commonly picked are the heal an depending on the build desert distortion. 

Yeah it is superior in that aspect and the hard cc aspect but what about the movement aspect of the dodge? You can't create or close gaps with mirage cloak and it gets even shorter if you've cripple or chill unlike a regular dodge and they don't even cover the entirety of the ambush only around half of the cast. So while they're good they are not as godly as people like to make them. Are you trying to dodge on aoe, gl because you'll still be there at the end of the dodge. 

[Xaylin.1860]

3 hours ago, Psykewne.3025 said:

There's alot of alternate sources of mirage cloak across the utility skills and mirage cloak itself gets alot of effects tied to it through traits. Mirage also unlike Chrono gets to keep distortion which can also be traited to create a mirror. Mirrors last 8 seconds so its possible to play around them quite effectively and use them when needed. Remember mirage cloak also does not interrupt any action so is also much superior to a typical dodge just by that nature.

Mirage keeps Distortion because ANet didn't incorporate the new mechanic(s) properly. That's hardly a plus, especially since the trait affects F4, not Distortion per se. Mirage would probably be in a way better shape if Mirage Shatters were unique. 

 

You are right that Mirage design is bloated. Whatever you personally might perceive as center piece of the spec might vary depending on your preferences. To me it's Ambushes and the unique Dodge/Mirage Cloak second. Imho, the dodge probably came second to have a trigger for Ambushes (instead of stealth like Thief). Mirrors only exist because they're pretty and have more triggers sources because... guess what... only Dodge as trigger is bad. And the effect Distor... "Mirage Cloak", I misspoke. While Mirage Cloak is powerful, Mirrors are ALWAYS aweful when not facing AI. It's a massive design fail.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:32 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The only problem with mirage was desert distortion. Being able to chain 2 dodges + 4s distortion into 4 mirage mirrors + signet of illusions into 4s distortion and 4 more mirage mirrors and dodging again -maybe even with vigor if you're playing with chaos, and the additional endurance you get from both sigil of energy and rune of adventure- was just out of control. But, and the thing is: the problem is desert distortion. 4 mirage mirrors, twice, are 6s invuln on top of a spec which is fairly hard to catch already; without those, it's still hard to catch but it is balanced.

Rework desert distortion, give mirage its second dodge. Mirage ambush is a strong mechanic, but trust me I'd take daredevil's 3 dodges over mirage ambush every day of the week.

Nah. Desert distortion allows you to ameliorate having one dodge, but its on a long cooldown and requires you to use mirrors. A lot of the high level build in spvp were running mirrored axes anyway. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Mirrors are garbage. They give away your movement and are easily countered unless you waste a movement skill to get there, the only mirrors commonly picked are the heal an depending on the build desert distortion. 

Yeah it is superior in that aspect and the hard cc aspect but what about the movement aspect of the dodge? You can't create or close gaps with mirage cloak and it gets even shorter if you've cripple or chill unlike a regular dodge and they don't even cover the entirety of the ambush only around half of the cast. So while they're good they are not as godly as people like to make them. Are you trying to dodge on aoe, gl because you'll still be there at the end of the dodge. 

 

Given that mirage cloak is what gives you mirage thrust on sword, which can create and close gaps, this seems like a weird complaint. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Terrorhuz.4695]

31 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Nah. Desert distortion allows you to ameliorate having one dodge, but its on a long cooldown and requires you to use mirrors. A lot of the high level build in spvp were running mirrored axes anyway. 

My suggestion about "removing desert distortion" stems from the fact that -once this is done- a second dodge should absolutely be given back

[Daniel Handler.4816]

6 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

My suggestion about "removing desert distortion" stems from the fact that -once this is done- a second dodge should absolutely be given back

The second dodge was removed in part because of builds that weren't even running desert distortion. 

They aren't going to randomly buff axe builds. 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

Given that mirage cloak is what gives you mirage thrust on sword, which can create and close gaps, this seems like a weird complaint. 

Yeah totally forgot mesmers are always on sword, silly me. And that's not to say that kitten is bugged since release and bugs out every time. Oh and the distance of thrust is affected by impairing conditions. 

Do you people even know how to read? Distance travel of a regular dodge is superior to distance travel of mirage cloak, and I'm counting only moving forward, because "dodge back or sideways" is non existant. 

You can twist and turn all you want, facts are facts. Mirage cloak does have trade-offs in itself.