What is the point of Willbender? [PvP]

[Ragnar.4257]

Core guardian, while an excellent support, is already pretty useless as a power-dps roamer type build. It has literally not been played by anyone at high level in PvP for years. And that's okay, I get it, a class that is top-tier support should not also be a top-tier roamer. Fine.

If the intention is for Willbender to enable guardian to play the power-dps roamer role at the expense of its support capability then it should, presumably, be better than core guardian in this regard. 

Except, it isn't.

You do less damage.

You have less sustain.

In theory you have more mobility, but the reality is that it is negligible. 450 range on F2 is hardly better than just walking. 600 range on F3 is hardly better than just walking, given how long the cast time is on it. Sword offhand is not being used by anyone, since it does zero damage to human players.

There is nothing of any value in the traits, so you're effectively down 1 traitline from core.

The only good things that you'll see any Willbender doing in PvP are core-guardian things. Stuff like JI -> Whirling Wrath. What is Willbender adding that I could not do before with Core? Why would I not just play core guardian, where on top of everything that Willbender can do, I can ALSO get insta-cast aegis, insta-cast heal/cleanse, insta-cast blind, and an entire extra trait-line.

If Willbender is worse than core-guardian in every way, and core-guardian is already established to be a bad pick for power-dps...... what is the point? Why would I buy this? Under what circumstancces do you envisage this being actively wanted?

I'm not asking for Willbender to be a super-overpowerd spec that does everything. I just want a spec that can at least fill the one niche it is supposed to fill. I would like a spec where every single second I'm playing it I'm not thinking "ehhhh, I would be so much more effective with core".

Edited December 1, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[ollbirtan.2915]

I agree. Seems like anet again didn't listen to 1st beta feedback ----- willbender has ZERO synergy with core guardian traits. Z E R O. The small adjustments anet made add nothing ----willbender succeeds in one thing - completely bending my will in this class.  

[Exile.8160]

Whats funny is the reason for guards 11k healthpool is because they have good sustain but willbender has non of that yet they still have too sufer with the low healthpool.

Poor understanding of the class tbh.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Exile.8160

[otto.5684]

As it stands, it does not work.

The issue has many folds. First, the mobility is not there. You can chase down targets. I had little issue with that. GL disengaging though. No way to play hit and run. Expect to go in and most likely die. It needs a way to effectively disengage .

 

Then sword OH, sword 4 cannot hit kitten in PvP. Like rev OH sword, it needs range. I had success with WL though. If sword 4 can hit reliably, the damage will be there.

And, overall, there is an issue between aoe design and fact that WB is a mobile class. This is more manageable  than the above, but atill an issue. However, this was fundamental issue in design. The initial design question was how would Anet change guardian design, particularly symbols and WB justice, to work with mobility. Anet answer was: (cricket sounds). they did not even bother to check already existing guardian CC skills, before adding new 2 ones, to understand why no one use the already existing ones. I strongly believe that whoever have been making guardian changes, 2020 forward, including  designing WB, does not play or even understand how guardian flows. They mostly mapped Rev, specifically Shiro, with minor changes. So, of course it is not working well, cuz core guardian design does not work well with high mobility, where rev was designed around Shiro as core part of its arsenal.

In any case, WB would not work with mediations. So it is down to radiance/virtues/WB, which currently is not working.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by otto.5684

[Obtena.7952]

This actually feels like the way core Guardian worked at the beginning of the game. If you could catch your foe, you were committed to that fight. Seems we come full circle. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[quaniesan.8497]

It tries to be a thief, but does not have the slipperiness and stealth when things start going south.  It also tries to be warriors but the physical skills lacks the perma stunt and power.  It tries to be a shiro rev, but the off-hand swords are cheap imitation and the heals and boons are just not in comparison. 

 

WB is all about mobility, chasing down opponents and burst them down - something a meditation power guard does just fine, and speaking of busting down foes, a DH traps - GS 2/symbol does better.   

 

 In the end, it tries to be so many things at once and failed at everything.  

 

This new revamp of WB still fails partly because they fail to address  the sustain need, and not really address the utility physical skills that simply cannot compete for slots vs. core skills.  The class  simply lack practicality and an identity.  Hope they really revamp everything before release.  Otherwise, DH is still the new specialization for guardian for EoD.

[Bosc.9452]

wrong thread

Edited December 2, 2021 by Bosc.9452
wrong thread

[Krysard.1364]

willbender needs to be able to sustain without valor, otherwise its just the same mediguard kitten we had since this game released. Active virtues are ok (f3 feels a bit weird, all that jumping to move a couple meters) but no passive and having to hit x times for them to proc feels lame. Utilities are meeh, some of them ok but overall worse than existing ones. Same with oh sword. Having great base mobility seemed like a good promise for smth like hammer guard but the synergy is not there. Hammer sucks anyways so yeah. Overall it rly feels like you just play core guard with more mobility but less dmg.

edit: I wanted to add that despite all the work still needed, the spec at least feels better than last beta

Edited December 2, 2021 by Krysard.1364

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The problem with roaming guardians is their weapon skills still are very limiting in terms of mobility. So with willbender sure you can dash around and teleport at people, but then you need to stop and wind up for a hammer 2 or gs 2 to do any meaningful damage unless you spec as a glass cannon. Sword offhand seems to try and give some more mobile damage to guards, but then you lose some of your strongest defence from shield or focus. Basically willbender is trying to force a role onto guards that they were never meant to have.

[ollbirtan.2915]

15 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

The problem with roaming guardians is their weapon skills still are very limiting in terms of mobility. So with willbender sure you can dash around and teleport at people, but then you need to stop and wind up for a hammer 2 or gs 2 to do any meaningful damage unless you spec as a glass cannon. Sword offhand seems to try and give some more mobile damage to guards, but then you lose some of your strongest defence from shield or focus. Basically willbender is trying to force a role onto guards that they were never meant to have.

You know core/fb/dh can be very much mobile - sword symbol+ji - there you go instant gap closer....Willbender's 'mobility' skills feel very lackluster and are not that mobile compared to what other classes gor - heck, even a harbringer now easily outruns a willbender. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

43 minutes ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

You know core/fb/dh can be very much mobile - sword symbol+ji - there you go instant gap closer....Willbender's 'mobility' skills feel very lackluster and are not that mobile compared to what other classes gor - heck, even a harbringer now easily outruns a willbender. 

JI is a 40s cooldown, so basically you get 1 chance to chase someone down and if they have any cooldowns or mobility left then they can easily get away. Sword 2 and GS 3 are nice, but you still have the problem of lacking mobile follow up damage.

[otto.5684]

2 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

You know core/fb/dh can be very much mobile - sword symbol+ji - there you go instant gap closer....Willbender's 'mobility' skills feel very lackluster and are not that mobile compared to what other classes gor - heck, even a harbringer now easily outruns a willbender. 

Not really. FB is not mobile at all. DH and core have limited mobility. The cannot effectively chase down anything, however, they have a deterrent of preventing enemies getting close, in aoe damage. Most of guardian power comes in zone control. You want to fight me? Prepare to be hit by traps and symbols. However, if enemy has a bit of mobility, they can just leave you alone or out play you, as many strong solo builds can and will. DH and core can roam, but are not roamers.

 

Obviously, WB was supposed to be a new design; assassin archetype. It clearly is not successful in that role.

[ollbirtan.2915]

4 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Not really. FB is not mobile at all. DH and core have limited mobility. The cannot effectively chase down anything, however, they have a deterrent of preventing enemies getting close, in aoe damage. Most of guardian power comes in zone control. You want to fight me? Prepare to be hit by traps and symbols. However, if enemy has a bit of mobility, they can just leave you alone or out play you, as many strong solo builds can and will. DH and core can roam, but are not roamers.

 

Obviously, WB was supposed to be a new design; assassin archetype. It clearly is not successful in that role.

FB and DH are equally mobile (not considering Soaring Devastation since this trait is no-go in most scenarios). And - their "mobility" comes from....core skills and weapons....Whatever the 'inspiration' was behind the WB - it failed miserably and now we have a spec that is disconnected from the core traits....Basically you could probably play a core guard with just 2 traitlines and be almost on the same level as WB. 

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, ollbirtan.2915 said:

FB and DH are equally mobile (not considering Soaring Devastation since this trait is no-go in most scenarios). And - their "mobility" comes from....core skills and weapons....Whatever the 'inspiration' was behind the WB - it failed miserably and now we have a spec that is disconnected from the core traits....Basically you could probably play a core guard with just 2 traitlines and be almost on the same level as WB. 

By all measures, except mobility, core power is better than WB. Even mobility, it is kinda meh. Has chasing capacity, but no way to lock enemies down and very limited ability to disengage.

[Bunny.9834]

DH is the DPS Power Spec... Willbender is just bootleg thief with less mobility. Both still hit like wet noodles in PvP. lol. 🤡

Willbender had one sorta useful WvW build but they already NERFED that to the ground (Shattered Aegis + Crashing Courage). 🤪

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, DragonSlayer.1087 said:

Willbender had one sorta useful WvW build but they already NERFED that to the ground (Shattered Aegis + Crashing Courage). 🤪

You must be kidding. This interaction allowed willbenders to delete entire WvW squads singlehandedly. There was no way anet would allow this to stay in the game and calling it "sorta useful" is probably the biggest understatement of this century.

[posthumecaver.6473]

I know it is PVP spec but my experience with in other games modes, I am  hitting much harder with my Celestial Firebrand then Will Bender, for a spec sacrifice everything for damage, it is quite pathetic...

[ollbirtan.2915]

2 hours ago, posthumecaver.6473 said:

I know it is PVP spec but my experience with in other games modes, I am  hitting much harder with my Celestial Firebrand then Will Bender, for a spec sacrifice everything for damage, it is quite pathetic...

Yep -  cele FB hits like a truck in WvW and doesn't die to a sneeze --- like WB

[Kuya.6495]

I disagree with the general sentiment that WB doesn't hit hard. Compared to beta 1, the damage from f1 and sword 4 is substantial. The problem is that's pretty much the only thing you can do on WB to spike targets. You could use the two dps utilities to up your dps but that means giving up meditations which is unviable since your dashes and shadowsteps aren't good for disengaging (your dashes are short and the only shadowstep that doesn't need a target, f3, is only 600 range).  The other problem is that your damage utilities and sword 4 require set up, the target needs to be locked down to actually hit it, but the only two lockdowns you have are sword 5 and the elite. Sword 5 immobilize is incredibly short and doesn't last the duration of sword 4, flash combo and whirling light. Your elite is the best set up you have but the cast time is too long for anything but silver players and the range on the shadowstep is too short to use line of sight to compensate for the wind up.

 

So you can't take dps utilities (that could use more damage btw) because your kit doesn't have sustain and your ability to lock down a target to actually dps it relies on other teammates doing the lockdown for you since you lack the ability to do it yourself. This is a problem neither thf or rev have.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Kuya.6495

[HokenPWNZ.7628]

Welcome to the thief's reality

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, HokenPWNZ.7628 said:

Welcome to the thief's reality

Can I have power rev reality? After all, most of WB stuff is copy pasted from rev.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the mobility is more then fine. the damage and sustain is another issue which should probably be addressed.

[Shiyo.3578]

Willbender should have been a bruiser, not a power rev with less damage.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[yLoon.5289]

WB is just a failed Teef wannabe that can't stealth. xD🤣

[Exile.8160]

5 hours ago, yLoon.5289 said:

WB is just a failed Teef wannabe that can't stealth. xD🤣

Failed thief and shiro rev.