Catalyst feels like trash

[Peter.3901]

The elementalist forum is the proof that devs don't take a single feedback.

[Kain Francois.4328]

12 hours ago, Peter.3901 said:

The elementalist forum is the proof that devs don't take a single feedback.

Game balance isn't about caving to popular demands. Especially when some of those demands may not acknowledge the broader context of how this game is properly balanced, and the long-term implications of certain changes.

Sometimes a player is unable to utilize their class properly, but they blame it on the class instead. Listening to those kinds of feedback would result in a balance nightmare.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Jski.6180]

25 minutes ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Game balance isn't about caving to popular demands. Especially when some of those demands may not acknowledge the broader context of how this game is properly balanced, and the long-term implications of certain changes.

Sometimes a player is unable to utilize their class properly, but they blame it on the class instead. Listening to those kinds of feedback would result in a balance nightmare.

Then what the point of feedback on these forms?

[Kain Francois.4328]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Then what the point of feedback on these forms?

To gauge public reception, for the purpose of metrics and information gathering. It's a useful resource for ironing concepts, along with other metrics (eg. success rates, how often something is used, where...) a dev might collect within the game itself. This data allows developers to make informed decisions as they develop a class and its concepts.

Consider the scenario of beta testing: A balance dev might beta test a class purposely undertuned in order to gauge response and see to what extent it can be used at a minimum threshold. We saw this with Beta 1. EG. Internally, it's possible Beta 1 Willbender was VERY overpowered. So they beta tested it very restrained in order to gather metrics from a pure mechanical perspective. Other times, they might do it simply to experiment with ideas and see what sticks. This does not mean a developer ever intended to release an underpowered class, nor does it indicate a lack of foresight. It means they are experimenting with data collection and numbers when polishing concepts.

In layman's terms, people like CMCWater know what the heck he is talking about, and they are on the same wavelength as us. Here, have a gander: 

 

All that is to say developers are smarter than we think because they have more access to metrics and internal excel documents and formulas. It's possible the mathematical calculations they draw may contradict some of the popular opinions we might think are correct, but aren't.

The point I'm trying to answer your question: The purpose of feedback isn't to force change with a mob. The purpose of feedback is to provide data for a developer to make (with internal information) informed decisions.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

Agree

[Jski.6180]

14 minutes ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

To gauge public reception, for the purpose of metrics and information gathering. It's a useful resource for ironing concepts, along with other metrics (eg. success rates, how often something is used, where...) a dev might collect within the game itself. This data allows developers to make informed decisions as they develop a class and its concepts.

Consider the scenario of beta testing: A balance dev might beta test a class purposely undertuned in order to gauge response and see to what extent it can be used at a minimum threshold. We saw this with Beta 1. EG. Internally, it's possible Beta 1 Willbender was VERY overpowered. So they beta tested it very restrained in order to gather metrics from a pure mechanical perspective. Other times, they might do it simply to experiment with ideas and see what sticks. This does not mean a developer ever intended to release an underpowered class, nor does it indicate a lack of foresight. It means they are experimenting with data collection and numbers when polishing concepts.

In layman's terms, people like CMCWater know what the heck he is talking about, and they are on the same wavelength as us. Here, have a gander: 

 

All that is to say developers are smarter than we think because they have more access to metrics and internal excel documents and formulas. It's possible the mathematical calculations they draw may contradict some of the popular opinions we might think are correct, but aren't.

The point I'm trying to answer your question: The purpose of feedback isn't to force change with a mob. The purpose of feedback is to provide data for a developer to make (with internal information) informed decisions.

Cult of person are fun but that dose not mean they are right about every thing and they are very much human. CMC job is to keep ppl playing NOT to balance. That what all of anet is trying to do. This has nothing to do with balancing.

Balancing base off of you-tubers views is far more silly point of view of things because a you-tuber is doing things to entertainment not for real balancing.

Cata is a mess of a class realty all of ele is a mess of a class. The balancing is bad and has been bad for a very long time.

[Kain Francois.4328]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Cult of person are fun but that dose not mean they are right

Er... To reiterate, I said:
"In layman's terms, people like CMCWater know what the heck he is talking about, and they are on the same wavelength as us. Here, have a gander:  "

And I linked a video going over balance changes, in which he talks to a streamer who is very active with this game's raid scene and community events. I do recall stating that ArenaNet developers have internal insights that we as a community don't. Is that not a fact?

What exactly do you mean by "cult of personality"? Can you please quote *specifically* the point I made, which you believe is a cult?

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

CMC job is to keep ppl playing NOT to balance. That what all of anet is trying to do. This has nothing to do with balancing.

Yes and no. The balance team's job tends to balance for aspiration content like WvW, PvP, and raids, which is what keeps people playing. 

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Balancing base off of you-tubers views is far more silly point of view of things because a you-tuber is doing things to entertainment not for real balancing.

Who is balancing off of "you-tubers" views, or even claimed such a thing??? Again, please quote what you're referring to?

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Cata is a mess of a class realty all of ele is a mess of a class. The balancing is bad and has been bad for a very long time.

Can you please explain:

why Catalyst is a "mess of a class",
why "all of ele is a mess of a class",
and what does "realty" mean?

Ps. The burden of proof is on you now. Good luck winning whatever it is you're trying to argue.

✋
.
:
|

🎤
____

Edited December 11, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Er... To reiterate, I said:
"In layman's terms, people like CMCWater know what the heck he is talking about, and they are on the same wavelength as us. Here, have a gander:  "

And I linked a video going over balance changes, in which he talks to a streamer who is very active with this game's raid scene and community events. I do recall stating that ArenaNet developers have internal insights that we as a community don't. Is that not a fact?

What exactly do you mean by "cult of personality"? Can you please quote *specifically* the point I made, which you believe is a cult?

Yes and no. The balance team's job tends to balance for aspiration content like WvW, PvP, and raids, which is what keeps people playing. 

Who is balancing off of "you-tubers" views, or even claimed such a thing??? Again, please quote what you're referring to?

Can you please explain:

why Catalyst is a "mess of a class",
why "all of ele is a mess of a class",
and what does "realty" mean?

Ps. The burden of proof is on you now. Good luck winning whatever it is you're trying to argue.

✋
.
:
|

🎤
____

He dose not know every thing and the at best you are just getting a group of ppl to "think" he knows what he doing comply though group thinking. That is a cult of personalty.

Videos are for entertainment not for fact often they are geared to be one point of view to get more views.

Wvw often is a beta test for pve balancing to ease ppl into the coming buff and nerf to there classes. PVE dose not have a perspiration population like wvw. So your wvw players play pve and get use to the updates from the split and often the split are un done as ppl get use to the new updates.

Cata is a mess up an class because it dose not know what its doing. It has effects that core ele is missing for the fact that core ele is missing such effect and nothing more. Energy on cata dose not act like energy on any other class. Why is that its like it was a simply "we forgot to give cata a new effect that core dose not" so they just thew it in there for an (this is not just a trait line only elite spec).

We had the same balancing from 2 + years after we where told that we where going to get more regulate updates and the big update from 2 + years ago was going to be a more place holder update for over all general nerfs (see passive skills getting 300 sec cd). We are being told that we will not see update till after EoD often due to them saying about alliances something that may not be done until way after EoD comes out. We are looking forward to nothingness but the same set of lyes they told us for years at this point. Anet is saying the same thing over and over but nothing is changing it is the only "proof" of words we need to put here and to show a real lack of trust for every thing anet dose and will do.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jski.6180
some spelling etc..

[Peter.3901]

5 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

All that is to say developers are smarter than we think because they have more access to metrics and internal excel documents and formulas. It's possible the mathematical calculations they draw may contradict some of the popular opinions we might think are correct, but aren't.

So, they failed with the profession when you need deep math to balance stuffs, i don't need math to get high dps with necro or any other usefull profession.

No one want to play a piano to be worst in everything, there is no math needed to understand this.

And just in case, they don't use excel for this, you need to know what are you talking about. And this is not how stuffs works on game dev, sometimes they just don't want to make a trouble with many overpowered professions and instead make only 1 or 2 to be easiear to balance. This is how this DLC will come with many useless elite specs on the pvp side for example.

They know that elementalist is bad in general, but they will never rework it because they will spend a lot of resources for this and will have to rework all the balance in PVP, WvW etc... and this is pretty clear from the crooked decisions they made with Catalyst, they know what elementalist needs, but they won't waste time when everyone wants to play necromancer, guardian or some no brain profession.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Peter.3901

[Kain Francois.4328]

34 minutes ago, Peter.3901 said:

So, they failed with the profession when you need deep math to balance stuffs,

I can attest as someone developing an RPG that you can't just snap your finger and make a coherent skill balance system happen. Most developers worth their salt aren't randomly throwing numbers like tossing spaghetti on the wall. Balancing an RPG takes a lot of thought, math, and care.

Even something as basic as Paper Mario has a lot of complex variables that developers must account for. (If you know anything about the Paper Mario community, you might be familiar with the Jump vs Hammer debate....)

Look, I'll even let you in on a secret I heard through a birdie that I know about a certain game which had a skill update that took months of working, and multiple iterations, before going live. That sort of update took a tremendous amount of work which most players don't realize, and probably won't ever know due to ndas. But the amount of math involved to get it live took an incredible amout of work.

All that is to say please have more appreciation for the thought that goes into the games you play. You don't have to like the skill balance (myself, I disagree with the direction of Catalyst), but don't disrespect the work itself involved.

Respect math.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Kain Francois.4328

[Flori.2194]

10 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

 developers are smarter than we think

well, I'm not so sure about that

[zealex.9410]

Honestly anet should start asking for ppl's credentials with their class whenever they are about to post in the profession forums

[Ace.1784]

18 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

To gauge public reception, for the purpose of metrics and information gathering. It's a useful resource for ironing concepts, along with other metrics (eg. success rates, how often something is used, where...) a dev might collect within the game itself. This data allows developers to make informed decisions as they develop a class and its concepts.

This does not mean a developer ever intended to release an underpowered class, nor does it indicate a lack of foresight. It means they are experimenting with data collection and numbers when polishing concepts.

All that is to say developers are smarter than we think because they have more access to metrics and internal excel documents and formulas. It's possible the mathematical calculations they draw may contradict some of the popular opinions we might think are correct, but aren't.

Sorry for cutting your post, but I wanted to address these ideas because you are spot on.

I am not a developer in the game space, but I work in data science and what Kain is describing here is the fundamentals of experiement design and data analytics. Anet has already mentioned that they keep almost all their data for analysis. This means that even if we don't have an architecture, you don't keep that many log files for fun.

12 hours ago, Peter.3901 said:

So, they failed with the profession when you need deep math to balance stuffs, i don't need math to get high dps with necro or any other usefull profession.

Kain has already explained this to you, but fundamentally, every game you play is a set of mathematical equations/functions. If any of these do not work, you do not have a game. 

What you're complaining about is that there are less equations used for other classes compared to Elementalist; however, if you keep this in mind, it tells you, from the start of the game, Elementalist was designed to be a complex class, which is consistent with all the developer interviews from before launch (if you were around at that point in time).

[sfaubion.9452]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:26 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Go to PvP and WvW and then record us how you deal with enemies, show us how you're gonna fight Ranger/Thieves/Necromancers/Mesmers in roaming, show us how well you'll do in Zerg fights.
Catalyst is usable in PvE, but it's still garbage in PvP and WvW because of garbage skills and mechanics, that's 2/3 of the game being simply unusable.

Literally all I did during the beta is roam in wvw with a fresh air, marauder build.  Almost all of my troubles can be boiled down to a lack of experience with hammer, not core weaknesses of the spec.  For example, victories against soulbeast were dependent on my ability to chain together magnetic aura, which can be done with incredible uptime if you practice.  Beating thief is all about utilizing earth sphere for protection and weakness, as well as targeting AOEs on yourself.  Mesmer is cake with hammer catalyst.  Necro is easy as well imo, although a good reaper is still impossible to trade with, and the chill can get you, but ele always has trouble against chill.  In a zerg you should still run staff, but who cares about that, zerg fights are boring imo.  Catalyst is NOT garbage in pvp/wvw.  People might not realize that of all the new specs, ele is the newest because of how ele gameplay works.  We all need way more practice.  Also catalyst is more than "usable" in pve - it is amazing. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

Literally all I did during the beta is roam in wvw with a fresh air, marauder build.  Almost all of my troubles can be boiled down to a lack of experience with hammer, not core weaknesses of the spec.  For example, victories against soulbeast were dependent on my ability to chain together magnetic aura, which can be done with incredible uptime if you practice.  Beating thief is all about utilizing earth sphere for protection and weakness, as well as targeting AOEs on yourself.  Mesmer is cake with hammer catalyst.  Necro is easy as well imo, although a good reaper is still impossible to trade with, and the chill can get you, but ele always has trouble against chill.  In a zerg you should still run staff, but who cares about that, zerg fights are boring imo.  Catalyst is NOT garbage in pvp/wvw.  People might not realize that of all the new specs, ele is the newest because of how ele gameplay works.  We all need way more practice.  Also catalyst is more than "usable" in pve - it is amazing. 

I highly doubt it.
Craptalyst should be a food to pretty much anything beside maybe a core warrior, which may be 7:3 wins for warrior.
Mesmer be it either power or condi have advantage from get-go with kitten load of dazes and constant condition uptime, Craptalyst have not enough cleanses with hammer for that and neither with auras or utility skills.
Thief, dependant on the build also should have easy time with that e-spec. The amount of evades, stealth and cc the thief kit have is pretty much guaranteed win, especially if you add 900/1200 ports.
Ranger with 1.5k range is just gonna 111 and then gain distance from you, why they would bother to get into your "advantegous" zone especially when you have 0 chase potential?
Necromancer is hard counter to Craptalyst, be it condies or power, it simply'll desintegrate it within seconds.
List goes on for pretty much for every class in this game.
I assume you've only met some bronze level players that hasn't discovered a dodge button yet, otherwise players that aren't brainlets will make you dance as they please. 

[Shiyo.3578]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:35 PM, Kain Francois.4328 said:

CMCWater

Who? It's CMC which is his irl names initials.

[Flori.2194]

17 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I highly doubt it.
Craptalyst should be a food to pretty much anything beside maybe a core warrior, which may be 7:3 wins for warrior.
Mesmer be it either power or condi have advantage from get-go with kitten load of dazes and constant condition uptime, Craptalyst have not enough cleanses with hammer for that and neither with auras or utility skills.
Thief, dependant on the build also should have easy time with that e-spec. The amount of evades, stealth and cc the thief kit have is pretty much guaranteed win, especially if you add 900/1200 ports.
Ranger with 1.5k range is just gonna 111 and then gain distance from you, why they would bother to get into your "advantegous" zone especially when you have 0 chase potential?
Necromancer is hard counter to Craptalyst, be it condies or power, it simply'll desintegrate it within seconds.
List goes on for pretty much for every class in this game.
I assume you've only met some bronze level players that hasn't discovered a dodge button yet, otherwise players that aren't brainlets will make you dance as they please. 

Well, I guess he was trolling. 

I play Fire Weaver high gold, low platinum in sPvP and I am level 1500 in WvW and I roam a lot so I know a little bit of what I am doing. 

 

I played it with Lightning Rod, Fresh Air, Fire/Arcane, with a focus on power, condi or hybrid, D/D, D/F, Sc/F, Hammer... it really lacks condi cleanse and mobility. Condi cleanse and mobility come from core trait lines. The augments are all worse traited cantrips or stances. The elite is yet again a joke. I was helplessly dying against classes I don't have a problem with normally (condi Scourges, power Revs, pew pew Soulbeasts, burst Dragonhunters, some weird celestial Scrappers). It was Core Ele because in the end I have to take Cantrips, Lightning Flash is just needed, Diamond Skin/Mist Form are better stun breaks, even Glyph of Elemental Power is better than the fire augment... the elite augment is an elaborate joke, sure it offers some burst potential, but that's already there without it if you know what you are doing... So without the new utilities, with old weapons and traits that are very hard to notice in a 1 vs 1 scenario it was really like playing Core Ele, I don't have this feeling when I play D/D FA Tempest or LR Weaver or Fire Weaver or FA Weaver.  I was expecting something new, something fresh to make it more different than Core Ele especially in pvp scenarios. That and that it has no theme, no concept makes me think it's trash.

 

(And don't let me start how useless it is with staff in zerg fights...)

Edited December 12, 2021 by Flori.2194

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Who? It's CMC which is his irl names initials.

But it's important to stay hydrated.

[sfaubion.9452]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:30 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I highly doubt it.
Craptalyst should be a food to pretty much anything beside maybe a core warrior, which may be 7:3 wins for warrior.
Mesmer be it either power or condi have advantage from get-go with kitten load of dazes and constant condition uptime, Craptalyst have not enough cleanses with hammer for that and neither with auras or utility skills.
Thief, dependant on the build also should have easy time with that e-spec. The amount of evades, stealth and cc the thief kit have is pretty much guaranteed win, especially if you add 900/1200 ports.
Ranger with 1.5k range is just gonna 111 and then gain distance from you, why they would bother to get into your "advantegous" zone especially when you have 0 chase potential?
Necromancer is hard counter to Craptalyst, be it condies or power, it simply'll desintegrate it within seconds.
List goes on for pretty much for every class in this game.
I assume you've only met some bronze level players that hasn't discovered a dodge button yet, otherwise players that aren't brainlets will make you dance as they please. 

Water hammer 5 is a 3 condition cleanse, cleansing sigil, water dodge, the augment heal removes 5 condis on a 19 second cooldown if you are good....

Necro is not a hard counter at all.  Ranger and thief you need to overcome the same way with every ele build, catalyst aint much different.

[sfaubion.9452]

6 hours ago, Flori.2194 said:

Well, I guess he was trolling. 

I play Fire Weaver high gold, low platinum in sPvP and I am level 1500 in WvW and I roam a lot so I know a little bit of what I am doing. 

 

I played it with Lightning Rod, Fresh Air, Fire/Arcane, with a focus on power, condi or hybrid, D/D, D/F, Sc/F, Hammer... it really lacks condi cleanse and mobility. Condi cleanse and mobility come from core trait lines. The augments are all worse traited cantrips or stances. The elite is yet again a joke. I was helplessly dying against classes I don't have a problem with normally (condi Scourges, power Revs, pew pew Soulbeasts, burst Dragonhunters, some weird celestial Scrappers). It was Core Ele because in the end I have to take Cantrips, Lightning Flash is just needed, Diamond Skin/Mist Form are better stun breaks, even Glyph of Elemental Power is better than the fire augment... the elite augment is an elaborate joke, sure it offers some burst potential, but that's already there without it if you know what you are doing... So without the new utilities, with old weapons and traits that are very hard to notice in a 1 vs 1 scenario it was really like playing Core Ele, I don't have this feeling when I play D/D FA Tempest or LR Weaver or Fire Weaver or FA Weaver.  I was expecting something new, something fresh to make it more different than Core Ele especially in pvp scenarios. That and that it has no theme, no concept makes me think it's trash.

 

(And don't let me start how useless it is with staff in zerg fights...)

Not trolling at all.

Fire weaver in high gold/low plat doesnt mean much imo.  Lightning flash is always good in WvW, not sure why people are surprised by that.  Signet of Air might still be the best stun break, but the air augment can be very usefull.  The earth augment is very strong, an ultra low cooldown channeled block with 3k barrier is one of ele's best defensive utilities.  Hammer doenst lack condi cleanse at all, in fact, it is the same as focus if you hit someone with it.  Elite is incredibly strong if used properly, not only for burst, but for baiting stunbreaks, or chaining heals or mobility.  And yeah, dont play core weapons cause that is boring.  Ele has always been more about weapon skills than utilities, so take some time and get better at the hammer, its so different from anything else ele has.  Sure there are weaknesses in hammer, but I dont think most people are putting in the time to learn it, and are quitting early and complaining.

[Flori.2194]

Yep, definitely trolling!

[Shiyo.3578]

4 hours ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

Hammer doenst lack condi cleanse at all, in fact, it is the same as focus if you hit someone with it.

2 ~= 3.

4 hours ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

The earth augment is very strong, an ultra low cooldown channeled block with 3k barrier is one of ele's best defensive utilities

It's good, probably the only good utility from CAT.

 

4 hours ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

Sure there are weaknesses in hammer, but I dont think most people are putting in the time to learn it, and are quitting early and complaining.

• Worst block in the game.
• Sustain you can't use while kiting and can be blinded/invuled/dodged/aegised.
• Equally terrible condi cleanse.
• Only gap closer is also your sustain.

It's a PvE weapon.

  

4 hours ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

  Elite is incredibly strong if used properly, not only for burst, but for baiting stunbreaks, or chaining heals or mobility.

It's worse than weave self, rebound and FGS in every situation besides double meteor showering.

  

4 hours ago, sfaubion.9452 said:

in a 1 vs 1 scenario it was really like playing Core Ele, I don't have this feeling when I play D/D FA Tempest or LR Weaver or Fire Weaver or FA Weaver.  I was expecting something new, something fresh to make it more different than Core Ele especially in pvp scenarios. That and that it has no theme, no concept makes me think it's trash.

This is why CAT is disappointing.

Also low plat/high gold is the same as top 50 on NA because you fight top10 duos 75% of the time at that rating.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[HotDelirium.7984]

The Jade sphere needs more flexibility in how and when it is summoned i.e. need a minimum summon amount however if you have over that then it will steadily drain unless you unsummon it. Having to keep summoning it every 5 seconds seems like it can be cumbersome.

Also, we have a WHOLE line of traits for auras.....but have no natural aura generating abilities beyond doing combos. Yet creating a combo for an aura requires a blast or leap finisher and not many hammer skills have them. The spec is too convoluted and potential TOO spread out. This lack of cohesion makes the spec unfun because in order, I guess, to get the max viability out of this spec I have to give up creativity and cycle through all attunements and certain utility skills no matter my play style. No thanks.

The elite skill is very uninspiring also...refresh all weapon skills....yay...... They really should do a mega jade sphere attack where it overclocks the Jade Sphere to make an even bigger combo field (of your current attunement) with more effects and with some cost adding time to change attunements.

[ClickToKill.8473]

7 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Worst block in the game.

• Sustain you can't use while kiting and can be blinded/invuled/dodged/aegised.
• Equally terrible condi cleanse.
• Only gap closer is also your sustain.

It's a PvE weapon.

 

 

Its the best block in the game if you switch attunements before the block.  Shocking Aura is pretty good. 

 

In the same way, you can condi cleanse using Smothering Auras, since you gain auras whenever you combo, removing 4 conditions if using Water 5. 

 

The gap closing is an issue.  You would have to rely on "the ole faithful" Lightning Flash as another way to close the distance.  Its certainly the weakest part of Hammer.  I do think if you are going to take hammer into PvP, your strategy will be to pick one point and camp it. 

 

Hammer isn't as bad as people here seem to believe and I think with enough practice someone can get it to work.  But it could definitely use a few tweaks before going live, and its not an easier weapon to work with compared to d/d or d/focus (IMO) in its current state. 

 

 

[Mattmatt.4962]

1 hour ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

 

Its the best block in the game if you switch attunements before the block.  Shocking Aura is pretty good. 

 

 

Warrior - shield:

Shield stance: 3sec unlimited blocks, 25cd. Can be traited

 

Daredevil - utility

Bandit's defense: 1,5sec unlimited blocks, breaks stun. 20cd.  Gives a counter strike. Can be traited.

 

Just 2 much better blocks from the tip of my head