Did you enjoy the beta alliance system and would you like to see more of it?

[Xenesis.6389]

10 minutes ago, Prophet of Flames.2783 said:

Eh you don't allow those to join an alliance under that idea. Not supporting the idea (or any idea regarding alliances) but please just think further before acting all high and mighty to others about their ideas. You're the dummie here.

And it might change with enough feedback to how terribly conceived the idea is. Or it might not change and WvW will end as we know it. Enough people are willing to walk, and those left are the toxic guild players who were never carrying WvW anyway. So it either changes, or WvW is left as a deserted game mode that can no longer be played for real.

 

Are you not going to allow guilds either then "under that idea"? cause you still haven't stated how do you prevent players from just stacking one guild instead of an alliance for the world creations. You do realize the reason alliances is set to 500 is because of the guild limit, right?

 

Please read up on everything about alliances, before putting forth suggestions that make no sense. Alliances and guilds do not rule servers, they have no power over you unless you joined them.

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Are you not going to allow guilds either then "under that idea"? cause you still haven't stated how do you prevent players from just stacking one guild instead of an alliance for the world creations. You do realize the reason alliances is set to 500 is because of the guild limit, right?

 

Please read up on everything about alliances, before putting forth suggestions that make no sense. Alliances and guilds do not rule servers, they have no power over you unless you joined them.

Duh, obviously you forcibly split the players in the 500 man guild and only allow 80 man guilds too!

And before anyone goes woah, woah there this is obviously completely different from forcibly splitting players from servers and only allowing 500 man alliances.

[Infusion.7149]

57 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Duh, obviously you forcibly split the players in the 500 man guild and only allow 80 man guilds too!

And before anyone goes woah, woah there this is obviously completely different from forcibly splitting players from servers and only allowing 500 man alliances.

80 is not scientific.
50 would be a squad, 150 would be Dunbar's Number , 500 is guild size limit which is why it makes sense (people would be able to make a 500 man alliances by leaving one of their guilds and joining an "alliance guild").

Edited December 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Counterakt.9106]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

80 is not scientific.
50 would be a squad, 150 would be Dunbar's Number , 500 is guild size limit which is why it makes sense (people would be able to make a 500 man alliances by leaving one of their guilds and joining an "alliance guild").

50 is squad size consider the 30 additional slots your bench as you can't expect everyone to . Maybe 60 or 75 works too.

If you purely optimize to avoid timezone stacking. WvW guild size should be 50 max with an alliance having 20-30 guilds in a single alliance. Server capacity also needs to be expanded so few guilds can't queue up a map by themselves and will have to cooperate with the rest of the map to take objectives.

 

That said if we do this, the game will not be the same anymore as far as community is concerned. It might be competitive and balanced. It is upto the devs to decide where to take their game.

Bottomline is 500man guilds have too much influence on the rest of the alliance as of now. It will be no fun if you get landed into those mega guild alliances as a roamer/casual.  Perennial queues when the guilds are running, outnumbered the second they log off. God forbid if you play a different timezone.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Counterakt.9106

[Cuks.8241]

50 minutes ago, Counterakt.9106 said:

If you purely optimize to avoid timezone stacking. WvW guild size should be 50 max with an alliance having 20-30 guilds in a single alliance. 

This would be much worse. WvW guilds would become very exclusive and would have high requirements (e.g., 100 % raid attendance...) for their members. I doubt there would be much more guilds suddenly because you need people willing to lead and organise the guild, command the squad... and those are in short supply.

20-30 guilds in alliance? There is really not that much guilds out there for reasons stated above, you need to have leaders, commanders. And if you would actually manage to get such alliance together it would consists of super active players - hyper stack.

The numbers now make sense. You have a semi serious guild with 100-150 roster. Maybe 25-30 will attend guild raids on a given night. And you have place for more casual players.

[Counterakt.9106]

9 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This would be much worse. WvW guilds would become very exclusive and would have high requirements (e.g., 100 % raid attendance...) for their members. I doubt there would be much more guilds suddenly because you need people willing to lead and organise the guild, command the squad... and those are in short supply.

20-30 guilds in alliance? There is really not that much guilds out there for reasons stated above, you need to have leaders, commanders. And if you would actually manage to get such alliance together it would consists of super active players - hyper stack.

The numbers now make sense. You have a semi serious guild with 100-150 roster. Maybe 25-30 will attend guild raids on a given night. And you have place for more casual players.

20 guilds in an alliance but it would be randomly filled based on algorithms (timezone, hours played average etc). If you let people pick who goes into an alliance with them there will be stacking. But then it won't really be an 'alliance' it will be matchmaking.  While you are at it, replace pve gear with pvp gear to make it even more fair. Just a large scale pvp. Like I said it would be a whole different game. balanced? yes. competitive? yes. will the players stick around? No idea. Maybe they gotta put in a lot of effort to recruit more competitive minded players. It is not something they should be doing lightly.

 

Leave existing servers alone, if you are not willing to make the investment to perfect it. Don't half kitten it and make the game worse than it is.

[Doll Mistress.9267]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:44 AM, Prophet of Flames.2783 said:

Yet you put players (guilds) in full control of bandwagoning and make it easier and cheaper. How will it fix this?

On top of that "bandwagoning" is hardly an issue in EU servers. There's only so many times entire groups of people are willing to move from one server to the next.

They could fix this by structuring wvw more like they structured the servers in GW1, or the labrynth...only allow so many people into an instance, then open a new one.

Make defense a thing, and make siege work better. We should get participation for building and refreching it. 

We could go back to the days where server pride was a thing by making all playstyles viable, and necessary, instead of only blob vs blob. Lastly, give us "Home Server Chat" so we can recruit from anywhere ingame to help on the wvw frontlines.

[Lyssia.4637]

Of the poll options, you forgot: 

"It was so buggy I mostly didn't know what I was seeing."

and 

"It was cool for a week, but let's not do this every day."

 

I mean, as pointed out before, we weren't actually seeing alliances being tested, but regardless of what the beta WAS testing, it was so clearly buggy in so many places, it's safe to guess what we actually get won't really look much like this week.  In that sense, I kind of felt like I was playing some kind of April Fool's joke event gone terribly wrong, and - for a single week - kind of had fun.  Bugs caused a number of humorous moments (though I feel for the people who take their battles more seriously than I), and there were some interesting fights that probably wouldn't have happened if things had been working right.  

 

But let's not do this every day.

[Greens Daily Ritual.9025]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:28 AM, saerni.2584 said:

A lot of people (at least those with new accounts on the forums) seem to be under the mistaken belief that this IS the Alliances feature.  For some reason they don't understand that the Alliances feature isn't implemented and most of this beta has been about testing the background systems required for a new match making system to work on a technical level. 
 

People who want to associate with more PvP oriented players will be able to make Alliances based on that (also I'm confused by the claim that any particular servers NOW are more PvP oriented than others, although some servers have map preferences like Maguuma with EBG).  It's not really implemented yet so a bunch of "I hated the beta because this is the finished product" posts are really frustrating from the perspective of someone who plays quite a bit of WvW and knows this is far from a finished presentation of the updated game mode. 
 

Anecdotally, I associated with a WvW guild for this Beta 1 and everyone in game (in the guild and otherwise) has been positive about the Beta. People actually playing the game who play a lot of WvW actually like the feature (in limited form and understanding that) quite a bit. Even Reddit has been positive. There's a serious disconnect this time between what I'm seeing/hearing in game and in other websites and what I'm seeing on this forum. 

I don't care what you want to call it, being placed on a "shard" (server) where I do not know one single person is a change I didn't want or ask for. There seems to be somewhat of a split between player experiences in this "BETA". Either they like the new setup and most of their guild was put on the same server, or they were one of the unfortunate ones randomly placed in a server with no one they know. I never cared for the blobbing play style and over the years, I started caring less and less about PPT or server score and enjoyed playing with the people I have gotten to know over the years. One thing I do know is that regardless of what I do, the friendly community I have been a part of for the last 7+ years will be fragmented to a fraction of what it once was.

 

It's ironic that you blame the players for being uninformed when Anet has virtually done nothing to communicate what they're doing with the player base. Same old song and dance.

[Yuffi.2430]

So many of the posts I see that don't want Alliances use server pride as their main reason against the idea.

The sheer size of the current servers makes it hard to create a reasonably balanced match-up so it makes sense to use smaller groups of people. Players have already created such smaller groups called Guilds. These offer ready made groups of people who already know each other and want to play together so it makes sense to use these to create teams with a better balance. 

To be honest, the death of WvW servers as a basis for matches started with the introduction of Megaservers for the cities, and was hastened by the linking system. This is just the next step on this journey and will benefit the majority of WvW players.

 

[Varnix.5204]

Just gives guilds even more reason to try flex on each other and super stack alliances so they always win. Was kind of ridiculous fighting 80 players with 1 guild of 30 on reset to be honest.

ANet needs to know more about the guilds, their sizes, and what an alliance has in it before they implement this imo. Was nothing but super stacked blob wars all week and if you didnt have 30+ you just couldn't play the game mode.

[saerni.2584]

1 hour ago, Greens Daily Ritual.9025 said:

I don't care what you want to call it, being placed on a "shard" (server) where I do not know one single person is a change I didn't want or ask for. There seems to be somewhat of a split between player experiences in this "BETA". Either they like the new setup and most of their guild was put on the same server, or they were one of the unfortunate ones randomly placed in a server with no one they know. I never cared for the blobbing play style and over the years, I started caring less and less about PPT or server score and enjoyed playing with the people I have gotten to know over the years. One thing I do know is that regardless of what I do, the friendly community I have been a part of for the last 7+ years will be fragmented to a fraction of what it once was.

 

It's ironic that you blame the players for being uninformed when Anet has virtually done nothing to communicate what they're doing with the player base. Same old song and dance.

It's not about "what you call it." It's an incomplete feature. So the complaint would be valid if the social and community building aspect had been built into this test (they weren't). 
 

And I disagree that Anet didn't communicate this. There were blog posts and forum posts. That's how Anet communicates. I'm not saying it's the player's fault for being uninformed. I'm saying I think Anet did "enough" here. 
 

It's not like players weren't able to quickly find out what's going on after the beta started (multiple blogs, a new sub-forum, many official posts about this beta and the previous beta attempt that didn't get off the ground). And the test wouldn't have been canceled if the players who had issues with being informed HAD found out and raised a stink. So really, the only think Anet needed to do was make sure there was plenty of info out there for those who didn't hear about it in advance. 

[BichyGF.8460]

I did not have much time to play during the week, however when i did have time i was missing the ability to choose between my 2 main guilds, i only have 1 account. The primary thing I miss, is the ability to form your own alliances.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:33 PM, Dayra.7405 said:

I accept the beta as a neccessary step, but it's far to buggy (esp. objectives on map) to enjoy it. I will play less till bugs get fixed.

Pretty much this. Glad it's over.

[Coda.9185]

Lol @ all the people who chose to dislike alliances system 

 

let me just put it this way

 

This is not even alliances..... this is world restructuring beta !!! if you don't know the difference then Please Do NOT VOTE !!! 

so many weird opinions tbh 😁

Edited December 10, 2021 by Coda.9185
added a line

[Dharkon.6481]

Absolutely loved the restructuring beta.  This past week was the most fun I've had playing WvW in years.  Sure, there are some knobs to adjust yet, but I feel like they've struck the nail squarely on the head with this.

[MisterFox.4208]

I didn't really see any benefit from the beta Alliance.  The biggest draw back was for me was that the friends I have known for 9 + years were all on different servers.  I know we were instructed to all join the same guild so that we could be on the same server, but this is not how the guilds work on Ferguson Crossings work.  We are good bunch of people that have known each other for a very long time.  But we have different personalities and the guilds that we have joined reflect that.  I would be very disappointed to see the Alliance move forward as it was presented, because one of the biggest elements would be missing, and that is the relationships that have been formed over the years.  I feel this very strongly because I met my now husband playing WvW on Ferguson Crossing's server, and it was because of all of our friends that we got together in the first place.  I feel the relationship with the people we have met and are now friends with is more important.   

[obastable.5231]

So many negative voices amplifying each other. So much aggression and entitlement. 😶

 

I loved the beta. There were bugs, there's a lot of systems yet to implement, a whole lot of design work to go, but by and large it worked. At least, compared to the previous beta week that was a catastrophic failure and ended within hours of its EU reset beginning. 

 

This was brilliant progress, and the WvW team should be so very proud of themselves. They know how many of us are eager for this and happy (albeit sometimes impatient) with how it's coming along.

 

Onward and upward. Can't wait for the next beta, we were so hoping it could just keep going for another week or three as an unexpected early Christmas present from Anet. 😉 

[Helicity.3416]

Imagine being so disconnected from WvW you didn't know there would be an Alliance test, while at the same time being entitled enough to think your opinion on WvW should be held into consideration.

You guys are funny AF

[dvsaleios.1752]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:57 AM, Mazdan.2071 said:

I will uninstall the game if Alliances becomes the norm and no you cannot have my stuff. The supporters of this will go on the attack and troll those of us who do not like it instead of having an adult conversation because they are children who need to scream, insult, attack and pout to get their way. "Boomer in his Mom's basement can't handle alliances" kitten. Maybe you'll call me a white supremist or racist or some other crap instead of listening to opposing viewpoints like an adult; go ahead. I've heard it all and it means nothing.

 

All I know is that I all I do is WvW and now I can't play with my friends and I'm not impressed with the folks I am matched with. I have no motivation to play WvW and thus GW2 in general if this is the future. 

 

If GW2 wants more GvG, why not use Edge of the Mists? It's a great map, no gliding or mounts keeps things even and it doesn't hurt WvW as a whole. Increase the rewards for it and there you go. Edge of the Mists is too good of a map to let it keep going to waste.

 

Boomer in his Mom's basement can't handle alliances

[jul.7602]

These numbers are awful. More than half of the voters prefer the old system. Unlikely alliances are going to be a thing at this rate.

[Hell and Back.5170]

For me, the alliance or restructuring is a pointless thing to discuss here as we really do not have any idea what ANET is trying to do. 

 

Yes, we know they are trying to make it better in a way for the majority I am all for that but, to deliver poorly organised and basic errors in the core game whilst attempting to restructure is completely out of order.  in other posts i have indicated the lack of attention and the outcome of this. 

 

Why not get lots of views together from all sides and then make a multiple choice poll for the majority to vote on. Is should not matter if you are a large guild or a solo roamer you should still get the same enjoyment from playing and after all if you are roaming you are active in the game. So, let us see better systems for all types of player that play the game in ways they enjoy. 

 

We all die in game we all fight in game but I think the real issues are more to do with the classes abilities to stealth and hide or bunker builds yes we can all have them but what is the point to just fight until a mob comes along.  and the 1 on 20 and the one is still no damage is a joke. Basically so much is wrong with the core game. it puts more people off than just restructuring. 

[bora.6935]

I quite enjoyed the beta and so did most of my guildies 🙂 We're a smol guild and the current server we're on and the link don't quite have a good enough coverage around the clock, only probably at NA timings. So it was a breath of fresh air seeing more people in the different timezones :] 

 

Looking forward to more beta action soon!

Edited December 11, 2021 by bora.6935

[obastable.5231]

6 hours ago, jul.7602 said:

These numbers are awful. More than half of the voters prefer the old system. Unlikely alliances are going to be a thing at this rate.

 

4 hours ago, Hell and Back.5170 said:

For me, the alliance or restructuring is a pointless thing to discuss here as we really do not have any idea what ANET is trying to do. 

 

Yes, we know they are trying to make it better in a way for the majority I am all for that but, to deliver poorly organised and basic errors in the core game whilst attempting to restructure is completely out of order.  in other posts i have indicated the lack of attention and the outcome of this. 

 

Why not get lots of views together from all sides and then make a multiple choice poll for the majority to vote on. Is should not matter if you are a large guild or a solo roamer you should still get the same enjoyment from playing and after all if you are roaming you are active in the game. So, let us see better systems for all types of player that play the game in ways they enjoy. 

 

We all die in game we all fight in game but I think the real issues are more to do with the classes abilities to stealth and hide or bunker builds yes we can all have them but what is the point to just fight until a mob comes along.  and the 1 on 20 and the one is still no damage is a joke. Basically so much is wrong with the core game. it puts more people off than just restructuring. 

 

 

SEVEN YEARS.

 

World Restructuring & Alliances are not new concepts or topics or subjects. It's been in discussion since the launch of the game, in one capacity or form or another, years before a developer jumped in and began engaging positively. John Corpening (who now has an entirely different position) was the first developer to see value in what the WvW community was discussing and take note, and back in 2014 he began a serious engagement strategy to outline the concept of World Restructuring & Alliances with the players, though he referred to them as Battle Groups back then. Prior to this the developer response to these ideas was dismissive and I believe it was Devon Carver who made a comment to the effect that WvW would never be changed (not a word for word quote but I'm sure someone could find it if they wanted to). Yes, literally seven years from first conceptual conversations with Anet to first beta of PART of the system. World Restructuring & Alliances are not some random thing Anet came up with and forced in to the game. This is something we have fought for and worked toward for SEVEN YEARS. Anet took our ideas/concepts for addressing major functional issues and molded them in to something they could incorporate in a way that still fit their vision of what WvW should be.

For anyone who is interested, here is a semi-chronological (and incomplete) set of links to go back and inform, or even just remind, yourselves of where World Restructuring and Alliances came from and how they were envisioned to work, as well as the issues they're meant to solve. I've left out tons: everything prior to John Corpening specifically but it's worth noting much of what came up in the discussions with him came from prior community conversations, and I obviously skipped a couple chunks of years. I think these are the meat and potatoes of it but if I missed something and there's a link you think should be in this list then toss it at me. 

 

Back in 2014 the journey to Alliances and World Restructuring began in earnest:

2014 - Solution to fix the population imbalance

 

Another layer of systems incorporated in to Alliances and World Restructuring

2014 Discussion on scoring imbalances

 

Fast forward to 2018 & we were presented with this outline of Anet's vision of World Restructuring & the Alliance system:

January 2018 - World Restructuring Update from McKenna Berdrow

 

Followed a month later with this FAQ post:

February 2018 - World Restructuring FAQ with Raymond Lukes

 

A few months later, we got another update:

July 2018 - World Restructuring Update from Raymond Lukes

 

And again, in February 2019 when Anet underwent layoffs and internal reorganization, Mike Zadorojny confirmed that World Restructuring was still a go:

February 2019 - Update from the Guild Wars 2 Team

 

And he reaffirmed the commitment in September in an interview:

September 2019 - Mike Zadorojny Interview with PCGamesN

 

And now we fast forward to 2021, with this rather significant announcement post:

September 2021 - Studio Update: World Restructuring and the Future of World vs. World

 

On September 24th the first beta launched with reset on EU. Within hours it was taken offline & the beta cut short so they could begin to diagnose & address major issues. This past week we had beta #2 which again launched with reset on EU. This time it was much more stable, though obviously still issues to solve. In my opinion the response was overwhelmingly positive, and I reiterate my belief that this thread is just a small vocal minority doubling down and amplifying each others negativity.

 

World Restructuring & Alliances are not new & Anet has consistently put this information out there because it is important and impactful to a significant number of players. After all, this isn't a small change. It's a complete redesign of the WvW systems and will affect every part of the game mode. I totally get that any change no matter how small can be scary, and this is an absolutely monumentally massive change. Not everyone is going to embrace it, and they certainly don't have to like it. I, for one, totally love it, and after 7 years of waiting for this I'm so excited to see what comes next! 🤩 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by obastable.5231
words

[subversiontwo.7501]

3 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

SEVEN YEARS.

etc.

Good write-up 👍