Things I'd Like To See Change QOL Style - Class Balance/Design Stuff

[Arheundel.6451]

4 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Like I said in my post, I don't want to turn this into a balance discussion. I just pointed out the fact that ele does indeed have a lot of unblockable cc. I haven't said weaver is easy or hard to play, so no idea where you're getting that from. 

 

And having a higher skill floor should absolutely not mean the class outperforms other classes. That is not a way to balance a game. Also thinking any class in this game is hard to play is delusional rofl.

I literally said I didn't think ele was a meta breaking class. Stop putting words in my mouth. 

 

I do have an issue with lightning rod, but that's from a design standpoint. Not from it being strong or weak.

My point is ..you know already that the average ele will never be a menace to you, the way LR works , it needs the player to chain small attacks back to back while adding his own feeeble sustain rotation and all this from a melee point of view on an amulet with zero toughness and when any other class can literally cut 3/4 of your HP before you even get close.....

 

Out of 100 things which are a complete waste of space on elementalist...we complain about that single one thing which may work if used by a top player who spent thousand of hours on the class.

 

But yeah you are perfectly right on one thing, elementalist should receive the same design philosophy of other professions...no reasons why it should be x10 harder to play when you're bound to produce the same results as other professions 

[Avatar.3568]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah if you can see it coming, which you can't.

you mean that gale animation where the ele uses literaly the force to knock you, yeah not visable at all

[Eugchriss.2046]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:22 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Ranger - Lightning Reflexes, remove the kitten damage proc from LR, ty.

Is that really the only urgent issue you noticed for ranger? Jesus, biais are real.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Is that really the only urgent issue you noticed for ranger? Jesus, biais are real.

I'm a ranger main, have been for a long time bud.

I think some of you are seriously misunderstanding or plainly misreading what this post is.

I did not say: "These are the most broken things that need to fixed".

I said that: "These are things I would like to see changed".

Some people posting here are being overly hostile & insulting for no reason.

There have been 3 or 4 posts that were removed from this thread already.

Chill out a bit.

[Math.5123]

6 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

My point is ..you know already that the average ele will never be a menace to you, the way LR works , it needs the player to chain small attacks back to back while adding his own feeeble sustain rotation and all this from a melee point of view on an amulet with zero toughness and when any other class can literally cut 3/4 of your HP before you even get close.....

 

Out of 100 things which are a complete waste of space on elementalist...we complain about that single one thing which may work if used by a top player who spent thousand of hours on the class.

 

But yeah you are perfectly right on one thing, elementalist should receive the same design philosophy of other professions...no reasons why it should be x10 harder to play when you're bound to produce the same results as other professions 

Lr weaver is the single hardest counter to dps guard. Not dh, but core. 

[Ovark.2514]

Trevor I think I agree with you more than anyone else on these forums. All your suggestions are gold in this thread. A lot more can and should be done but the suggestions have already been made and it's in the devs hands now.

[Spellhunter.9675]

10 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The difference is that playing a marauder LR weaver at a level where you are considered a threat, takes at least 5x the effort/skill

All it takes is slotting Earth Shield. Bonus points if you have a teammate with more than 60 IQ to pick up second shield.

[Arheundel.6451]

8 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Lr weaver is the single hardest counter to dps guard. Not dh, but core. 

What about we make professions actually fun to play before applying any nerfs or buffs? I really think that would make this game that much better compared to the shitshow it is now.

I was simply making, in my opinion, a valid point about ele but in the end you all should remember that nerfing that couple of traits still used by the "10 cats" still playing ele...won't improve this game overall, it's not like currently we have PvP matches with 3-4 LR weaver running around..so I wonder what would be even accomplished by nerfing ele at this point.

You mention core guard like it's good at anything other than being some support in a dead game mode, you can literally fight a core guard on ele while using staff. 

This is literally nerfing for the sake of nerfing, almost nobody play ele seriosuly anymore, in terms of number, active eles are like 1/5 the number of rangers and guardian so.....further nerfing ele really won't accomplish anything but oh well guys...

Edited December 17, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Crozame.4098]

21 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

No more nerfs. I agree with every buff here tho.

You should know that nerfing and buffings are related. If you buff A and B but not C, this means nerfing C. 

[Crozame.4098]

6 hours ago, Ovark.2514 said:

Trevor I think I agree with you more than anyone else on these forums. All your suggestions are gold in this thread. A lot more can and should be done but the suggestions have already been made and it's in the devs hands now.

As long as its not related to ranger, yes:)

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, Crozame.4098 said:

You should know that nerfing and buffings are related. If you buff A and B but not C, this means nerfing C. 

Thats how the gw2 community thinks and thats how we landed here. All you end up doing is cutting content all the way back to core levels and people leave out of boredom and still complain about how core is so much better because they cant see past there nostalgia googles. Again i do not know how cutting stuff and nerfing stuff will yield different results.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Crozame.4098]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Thats how the gw2 community thinks and thats how we landed here. All you end up doing is cutting content all the way back to core levels and people leave out of boredom and still complain about how core is so much better because they cant see past there nostalgia googles. Again i do not know how cutting stuff and nerfing stuff will yield different results.

In pvp, there will be no complete balance, unless the game is completely symmetric. For example, there are still updates for games like Starcraft 1 & 2, warcraft 3, dota 2, LOL etc.

 

Even in games like chess or go, there is first move advantages. Tennis and table tennis, who serves first has advantage, but this is addressed by alternating turns, and play more than 1 set.

 

What I mean is, the game should move towards different meta. Players can tolerate slight imbalance. But, brainless builds with relatively high rewards should go: core necro, trapper ranger / slb, cthief, there might be others. 

[Math.5123]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

What about we make professions actually fun to play before applying any nerfs or buffs? I really think that would make this game that much better compared to the shitshow it is now.

I was simply making, in my opinion, a valid point about ele but in the end you all should remember that nerfing that couple of traits still used by the "10 cats" still playing ele...won't improve this game overall, it's not like currently we have PvP matches with 3-4 LR weaver running around..so I wonder what would be even accomplished by nerfing ele at this point.

You mention core guard like it's good at anything other than being some support in a dead game mode, you can literally fight a core guard on ele while using staff. 

This is literally nerfing for the sake of nerfing, almost nobody play ele seriosuly anymore, in terms of number, active eles are like 1/5 the number of rangers and guardian so.....further nerfing ele really won't accomplish anything but oh well guys...

Read this. 

 

15 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

I do have an issue with lightning rod, but that's from a design standpoint. Not from it being strong or weak.

 

I said I don't necessarily think it's strong. I think it's unhealthy. Just like I thought big symbols were unhealthy, like stealth on dodge is unhealthy, like mirage dodge when ccd is unhealthy. I do NOT think it's overperforming in any way shape or form. I don't know how I can make this any more clear to you guys. 

 

Edit: I don't think any of the abovementioned traits are particularly fun to play against. As they are very polarizing. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Math.5123

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

In pvp, there will be no complete balance, unless the game is completely symmetric. For example, there are still updates for games like Starcraft 1 & 2, warcraft 3, dota 2, LOL etc.

 

Even in games like chess or go, there is first move advantages. Tennis and table tennis, who serves first has advantage, but this is addressed by alternating turns, and play more than 1 set.

 

What I mean is, the game should move towards different meta. Players can tolerate slight imbalance. But, brainless builds with relatively high rewards should go: core necro, trapper ranger / slb, cthief, there might be others. 

We can move the meta without nerfing anyone atleast for now, lets have something actually get power crept again before complaining about nerfing things we just universally nerfed the entire game.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Crozame.4098]

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

We can move the meta without nerfing anyone atleast for now, lets have something actually get power crept again before complaining about nerfing things we just universally nerfed the entire game.

I mean, you cannot change the meta with only buffing. The consequence is that everyone might get 1 or 2 shotted, and the HP pool needs to increase dramatically... Like the WoW. 

 

The issue is, this is still an incomplete patch. Shroud not adjusted after the dmg nerf; ress not adjusted; and we resolutuion and resistence not adjusted. 

[Morwath.9817]

15 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

I mean, you cannot change the meta with only buffing. The consequence is that everyone might get 1 or 2 shotted, and the HP pool needs to increase dramatically... Like the WoW. 

 

The issue is, this is still an incomplete patch. Shroud not adjusted after the dmg nerf; ress not adjusted; and we resolutuion and resistence not adjusted. 

 

You realize, you can buff other ways than by buffing damage? For example, if you would want to have Berserker on Reapers level, you could give him pulsing resistance in berserk mode, so he could not be blinded, immobilized, weakened, feared etc. While it wouldn't make Berserker suddenly do more damage, nor his defences against damage would change, he would be much viable than now.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Myror.7521]

I would like to see some love for Berserker again since it get not1, not 2, but 3 trait offs in PvP. The first one is the -300 thougness while in zerk Mode. The second is that you got no real defence/heal if your not in zerk Mode cause you need to hit your burst skill if you want to benefit of Adrenalin heal. The third one is cause you get no burst skill if your not in zerk Mode you also deal no damage back then.

 

Edit: The best way to bring Berserker back in pvp life is to simply bring The burst skill back as it Was before that Rework.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

If you want to remove the proc on Lightning Reflexes, then it gets a base 50 sec cd. You don't get to run around with a 24 sec traited evading cleansing stun break just because you don't like that Shocking Aura stuns you through it. 

 

The LoS complaint just sounds like you want to be able to insta gib people faster and nothing else. 

[Ovark.2514]

3 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

Edit: The best way to bring Berserker back in pvp life is to simply bring The burst skill back as it Was before that Rework.

Are you talking about primal bursts granting level 3 adrenaline? If so, I remember mace-shield/GS days after HoT launch. That was not a fun time if you wanted to play anything different. Instead, I vote the traits and utilities are buffed/improved so to make berserker have some natural sustain if played right. There are a billion ways to do it.

[Axl.8924]

15 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

I mean, you cannot change the meta with only buffing. The consequence is that everyone might get 1 or 2 shotted, and the HP pool needs to increase dramatically... Like the WoW. 

 

The issue is, this is still an incomplete patch. Shroud not adjusted after the dmg nerf; ress not adjusted; and we resolutuion and resistence not adjusted. 

 

The issue with necros is: Before the balance was terrible in the game and it still is terrible.

Back then Anyone could be 1 shot and it was super brainless. Want to 1 shot a non mobile class? cc with chill/roots/cripple/stunlocking them use infinite mobility and burst them.

 

Necros literally don't have mobility and aegis like some classes sort of like how guardian isn't a super mobile class either and is pretty slow. In  fact i would argue far too many were used to when nec were free kills to every and any class. its better if there is a reasonable TTK where peeps have to actually use strategy instead of cheap invisibility+1+stunlock+Instakill like the way thief and mesmers did.

I think eles need help too as i think its kinda obserd they get hit so hard In SPVP, especially for a very squishy class.

Too many cheap and broken stuff that shouldn't be a thing.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Genesis.5169]

56 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

The issue with necros is: Before the balance was terrible in the game and it still is terrible.

Back then Anyone could be 1 shot and it was super brainless. Want to 1 shot a non mobile class? cc with chill/roots/cripple/stunlocking them use infinite mobility and burst them.

 

Necros literally don't have mobility and aegis like some classes sort of like how guardian isn't a super mobile class either and is pretty slow. In  fact i would argue far too many were used to when nec were free kills to every and any class. its better if there is a reasonable TTK where peeps have to actually use strategy instead of cheap invisibility+1+stunlock+Instakill like the way thief and mesmers did.

I think eles need help too as i think its kinda obserd they get hit so hard In SPVP, especially for a very squishy class.

Too many cheap and broken stuff that shouldn't be a thing.

I played necro in PoF for a bit.

This is a lie.
Scourge was absolutely crazy back then read the forums, everyone complained about that class even more then mirage. I have no idea what your talking about but stop there's. If you invis + stunlock your far past the insta kill state. I don't even know what point your trying to make.

[Axl.8924]

11 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I played necro in PoF for a bit.

This is a lie.
Scourge was absolutely crazy back then read the forums, everyone complained about that class even more then mirage. I have no idea what your talking about but stop there's. If you invis + stunlock your far past the insta kill state. I don't even know what point your trying to make.

I don't want to call you a liar but just because scourge was part of the problem doesn't undo the fact pof damage power creep was insane.  Your excuse is ridiculous because all POF specs were overpowered and after scourge got nerfed you still had: FB mirage Deadeye even spellbreaker and weaver were a problem even holosmith with its infinite pressure and escapes. 

Damage was so high it was literally terrible meta for both core and reaper because back then evades+ invuln was more valued than tankiness.

The equivalent of what you said is like saying:Climate change and global warming aren't real because here is a snowball see?

Anyone who argued for pof level of damage and stealth and mobility to be back just wants the cheap 1 hit kill from stealth meta back and infinite escapes.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Genesis.5169]

2 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I don't want to call you a liar but just because scourge was part of the problem doesn't undo the fact pof damage power creep was insane.  Your excuse is ridiculous because all POF specs were overpowered and after scourge got nerfed you still had: FB mirage Deadeye even spellbreaker and weaver were a problem even holosmith with its infinite pressure and escapes. 

Damage was so high it was literally terrible meta for both core and reaper because back then evades+ invuln was more valued than tankiness.

The equivalent of what you said is like saying:Climate change and global warming aren't real because here is a snowball see?

I have no idea what you talking about man necros were in far better state in PoF then any other expansion.....We also had real unkillable bunkers back then and healing and defensive amulets. You need to look at the meta at large not your individual games damage was high because things like menders existed.

😕

[Axl.8924]

6 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I have no idea what you talking about man necros were in far better state in PoF then any other expansion.....We also had real unkillable bunkers back then and healing and defensive amulets. You need to look at the meta at large not your individual games damage was high because things like menders existed.

😕

 

And scourge got nerfed repeatedly and back then nec had no roamer build after a while because damage was too high in that meta.

You are focusing too much on scourge and not enough on what  hot and pof brought in power creep. Remember how mes was literally the only meta worth bringing in PVE? remember chronomancer levels of sillyness able to 1 shot peeps from stealth? remember deadeye camping peeps and 1 shot from range and how peeps hated that? remember the utter stupidity of soulbeast with its world strike 1 shotting? remember the sillyness of infinite escape ranger? remember Holosmith able to infinitely reset after battle? Remember mirage infinite evades while condi killing people and being utterly neigh godmode and ridiculous?

The meta is better without that level of damage and mobility because its utter insanity. There has to be a certain threshhold of damage to kill people i agree but just because scourge was utter insanity in pressure doesn't negate teh fact that all the POF specs were broken Op and silly c ompared to HOT level of  damage and mobility.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Genesis.5169]

12 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

And scourge got nerfed repeatedly and back then nec had no roamer build after a while because damage was too high in that meta.

You are focusing too much on scourge and not enough on what  hot and pof brought in power creep. Remember how mes was literally the only meta worth bringing in PVE? remember chronomancer levels of sillyness able to 1 shot peeps from stealth? remember deadeye camping peeps and 1 shot from range and how peeps hated that? remember the utter stupidity of soulbeast with its world strike 1 shotting? remember the sillyness of infinite escape ranger? remember Holosmith able to infinitely reset after battle?

 

 

Exactly why was necro nerfed multiple times in PoF now?
(You think it might have something to do with necro being in its best state of any expansion thus it recieved the most nerfs it had every recieved in any expansion)

I like how you ignore.
If you put menders on more then half the classes in the game and trait defensive you were unkillable. Because YOU play a dps build and died in 1 shot doesnt mean everyone dies in one shot i played chronobunker before the mass rune nerfs i had like 90% block uptime and dazes I DIDN'T get one shot see how that works what you see as sillyness is actual a choice of itemization that people make that you fail to understand.

I mentioned scourge because you mentioned it you decided to move the goal post i will not be going to the next goal line. Also defensive runes had a way lower CD back then your missing so much about the previous meta many people do not understand how much itemization the feb 2020 patch zapped out of the game most of the runes became unplayable. Which destroyed hundreds of builds. There was much more to the old meta then damage.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Genesis.5169