Willbender as thief counter?

[Kuya.6495]

I recently saw a video where Teapot, Helseth and Rom were discussing pvp balance and the subject of thf came up and how nothing else really does what thf does and the only real counter to a thf as far as decap/+1 goes is  a better thf. 

 

Why not just tweak willbender a little to be an effective thf counter? Right now willbender has some mobility to be able to catch up to thf (i feel it needs more tbh) but at this moment willbender is just a worse herald rev. Perhaps by raising the range on willbender ports and giving willbender access to revealed debuff (maybe on sword 5), willbender can be a good counter. 

 

This post isn't meant to say the problem with pvp right now is thf. It's just a discussion on balance and counters and making a bad elite (willbender) useful in pvp. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I recently saw a video where Teapot, Helseth and Rom were discussing pvp balance and the subject of thf came up and how nothing else really does what thf does and the only real counter to a thf as far as decap/+1 goes is  a better thf. 

 

Why not just tweak willbender a little to be an effective thf counter? Right now willbender has some mobility to be able to catch up to thf (i feel it needs more tbh) but at this moment willbender is just a worse herald rev. Perhaps by raising the range on willbender ports and giving willbender access to revealed debuff (maybe on sword 5), willbender can be a good counter. 

 

This post isn't meant to say the problem with pvp right now is thf. It's just a discussion on balance and counters and making a bad elite (willbender) useful in pvp. 

The problem with Ben Dover here is that it lacks everything to even be a "threat" to teefs in any way, it lacks mobility even though it is supposed to be mobile class, it lacks damage by A LOT to even put a dent into teefs. Then let's add pepe level of sustain, 0 reveals, some pepe cleanses and some pepe CC's.
At this point it's not enough, but the moment it'll get buffs to "compete" or be a "counter" to teefs, rest of the classes will be spanked left and right, because it'll need A LOT of powercreep to deal with teefs in their current state.

[Kuya.6495]

6 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The problem with Ben Dover here is that it lacks everything to even be a "threat" to teefs in any way, it lacks mobility even though it is supposed to be mobile class, it lacks damage by A LOT to even put a dent into teefs. Then let's add pepe level of sustain, 0 reveals, some pepe cleanses and some pepe CC's.
At this point it's not enough, but the moment it'll get buffs to "compete" or be a "counter" to teefs, rest of the classes will be spanked left and right, because it'll need A LOT of powercreep to deal with teefs in their current state.

I agree completely.  Even the thing the class is meant to do, mobility, isn't even good at all. Non mobile classes can catch up to you somehow.  It's why I think aside from giving the spec access to on demand reveal, they need to at least up the distance on ports and dashes. As for the sustain, it's pretty bad and relies, once again, on meditations but I wanted to focus first on getting the spec to actually be able to kill something. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The only way to do what you want would be to have low CD 900 to 1200 range shadow step and a low CD AoE reveal. Now ask yourself if that is healthy for the none thieves who would have to fight it as well.

[Ragnar.4257]

15 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The only way to do what you want would be to have low CD 900 to 1200 range shadow step and a low CD AoE reveal. Now ask yourself if that is healthy for the none thieves who would have to fight it as well.

Why would something with alot of reveal be a problem for other classes? No other class relies on stealth in the same way as thief.

That said, Spellbreaker has potentially alot of Reveal, still doesn't make it a thief counter.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

Why would something with alot of reveal be a problem for other classes? No other class relies on stealth in the same way as thief.

The shadowsteps required to out rotate a thief and less so the reveal, but if such a thing did exist in that way it would create problems for the other classes with stealth, especially in the other side of the competitive house.

My point though is that creating a better counter to thief in PvP isn't what needs to happen, instead things on thief need to be toned down (not the damage mind you) so that they can be countered more easily with existing builds.

[saerni.2584]

There are a number of profession builds now that closely match thief in mobility. Sure, they don't all have teleport but even the ones without teleport tend to keep up pretty well. Lots of people who think thief is a mobility god in a league of its own have clearly never been chased down by mobility oriented builds for Ranger or Engineer.
 

Willbender (depending on how it ends up post balancing) could provide some of the same based on the idea of a ninja guardian. But it depends also on players having the mentality required to go hard in on mobility and not just assuming they can drop other guardian teleports because they got more mobility as baseline. Like, thief can't just drop Shadowstep or Shortbow (even neutered) just because of the 1200 range core Steal. 
 

I agree with your general point that it isn't so much a question of thief's balance but a question of what other professions can do. At least with Willbender the open question is whether a specialization designed for mobility (closer in role to thief) is a play style guardians want, or that can be fit into the rest of the guardian profession without sacrificing damage or some other critical aspect that makes them worse than thief in that role. 

It's not impossible to imagine. Soulbeast and Holo can both be super mobile and excellent +1. There's more but those two come to mind. 

[Bazsi.2734]

To counter thieves, willbender would need mobility, sustain, reveal(s), and damage(damage it can actually land). But it only lacks... well all of the above.
PoF specs were bad/lazy designs which were severly overtuned on release, so I guess the design team determined not to make the same mistake again, they made the opposite: EoD specs are weak, inferior and will not work unless you severly gut many many MANY things in core and HoT/PoF elites.

[Ragnar.4257]

I don't think you want to try and counter thief by making Thief 2.0.

That's not really solving the problem, it's actually doubling it. Having 1 specific class to counter another specific class is just reinforcing rock-paper-scissors.

Rather you want to make it so that it is possible to counter-play with any decent side-node build, if played with sufficient skill.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Stand The Wall.6987]

anything with aoe counters teef. willbender could be buffed to counter bunker builds imo.

[Ragnar.4257]

18 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

anything with aoe counters teef. willbender could be buffed to counter bunker builds imo.

That's not what is meant by "countering thief".

The reason that thief is meta is not because it wins 1v1s.

This is not what the discussion is about.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Geoff Fey.1035]

I always view the Elite Specs as essentially the 2nd Profession from Guild Wars 1.

Like, a Warrior/Assassin would always be an inferior Assassin, but will be a more agile Warrior. A Necromancer/Ritualist would always be an inferior Ritualist, but will have more utility and combos than a Necromancer. A Monk/Warrior would always be an inferior Warrior, but would be a tankier and more combat focused Monk.

In GW2 the Elite Specs are roughly similar (take below with several tonnes of personal opinion salt):

• Willbender - Guardian/Thief - Mobility
• Vindicator - Revenant/Daredevil - Dodge-focused
• Bladesworn - Warrior/Holosmith - Photon-Forge
• Specter - Thief/Scourge - Debilitation & Support
• Untamed - Ranger/Elementalist - Attuning & Cantrip Alterations
• Mechanist - Engineer/Ranger - Pets
• Virtuoso - Mesmer/Deadeye - Stacking for Opportunity Spikes
• Catalyst - Elementalist/Scrapper - Wells and Combos
• Harbinger - Necromancer/Engineer - Elixirs & Trait Synergy

A Bladesworn will never be as effective as a Holosmith with the weapon kit (and operates differently) but they play into that style. An Untamed will never have the same breadth of skills as an elementalist, but you're attuning and swapping back and forth to suit the ongoing changes of combat. Etc.

Back to OP--a Willbender will never be as mobile as a Thief, but if you catch that Thief they are going to have a bad time because they're not just fighting another Thief, they're fighting a Guardian who can more readily outmaneuver them.

[Khalisto.5780]

willbender as duo counter, it was so bad last time that even if a plat2 duo to carry it was just too heavy

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

HOT TAKE:

Thief's counter shouldn't be willbender. Willbender doesn't have the tools to land anything against thieves. I believe the counter to a thief should be conditions in general and harbinger in particular, but sadly the class has a huge amount of cleanse basically for free. Give THAT a fat nerf.

- shadowstep cleansing 3 conditions? Gone.
- Evading an attack cleanses a condition? Gone.
- Unhindered combatant cleansing chilled\immob\cripple on every dodge? Gone.
- Healing skills providing up to 4 cleanses per cast? Gone.
- Infiltrator return cleansing? Gone.
- Cleanse from camping stealth? GONE GONE GONE

Everything except signet of agility is GONE.

Do that and we have a spec which can even be buffed slightly as far as utility goes (Raising the speed on scorpion wire? Lowering ini costs here and there, even sb5? All fine by me) because, despite all the buffs, it's not going to be some unkillable ghost just winning everything, either by killing or by outrotating.

It will have some kind of built-in vulnerability, like every class does. Mesmer is weak to long fights because long cooldowns, necromancer is weak to CC because no blocks\evades, warrior is weak to blind\aegis because telegraphed single-hit attacks, why should that be different for thief.
If we do that, thieves would get a counter from the now-useless harbinger (which is hoping to fill the role of a condi roamer in a different way from mirage, which I like)

Edited February 3, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Kuya.6495]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The only way to do what you want would be to have low CD 900 to 1200 range shadow step and a low CD AoE reveal. Now ask yourself if that is healthy for the none thieves who would have to fight it as well.

I dont think an aoe reveal would be necessary. A few classes already have aoe reveal and it doesn't really help them fight thieves because you'd have to know where the thief is to land it or be able to catch up to it to use it.   I think it would be better to just put the reveal on willbender shadowsteps such as sword 5 or flash combo. 

[Kuya.6495]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I don't think you want to try and counter thief by making Thief 2.0.

That's not really solving the problem, it's actually doubling it. Having 1 specific class to counter another specific class is just reinforcing rock-paper-scissors.

Rather you want to make it so that it is possible to counter-play with any decent side-node build, if played with sufficient skill.

My intention really isn't to have willbender replace thf. I dont think it can do that without access to similar disengage mechanic such as stealth which is what makes thf unique in its role.  The intention is to turn willbender into a spec meant to chase down mobile targets and have a specific niche in preventing a decap thf from being unchallenged by anyone other than another thf.

 

In fact, the reason why I dont think willbender sustain should be touched yet is because unlike thief, if you can catch a willbender and you use strike damage spikes, you are almost guaranteed to win the fight. So the obvious counter to an anti-stealth willbender is a power herald because guards rely on blocks for sustain and anything with unblockable strike damage is a massive pain for all guardian specs. Plus a herald rev will catch you and you have no way to get away like a thief would. 

 

If you don't think a rock paper scissors meta is good, that's fine. I agree a rock-paper-scissors meta isn't fun if you're up against your counter. I think a rock paper scissors meta is better however for team based combat and I think conquest is essentially about team comp. Almost every successful pvp game is based on classes who counter other classes. IE: league of legends and overwatch. The game already has situations where some builds counter others and I think that's fine. And if a guardian doesn't want to spend the whole match getting farmed by a power rev as willbender, they have the flexibility in this game to change to DH and core guard and perform a different role. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

That's not what is meant by "countering thief".

The reason that thief is meta is not because it wins 1v1s.

This is not what the discussion is about.

i'm saying this discussion is moot and buffing willbender to do something else better would be the way to go. thought that was obvious.

[Tescao.3042]

I think Willbender's fighting philosophy is very wisely thought out. He doesn't have the insidious attacks of an assassin or a thief because he initially has the identity of a guardian. As Bazsi said don't try to compare it to the current core, hot and pof specs. Better compare it with Warrior for example.

Edited February 2, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Downstate.4697]

There are builds/professions that match thief in mobility. Thief has too many ways to avoid damage and it makes the +1 a low risk. Stealth makes it easy for them to not be focused down. A good counter is a sic em lb ranger. Sic em lb ranger isnt meta as its too easy to focus and a thief can out rotate it relatively easy.

Anything with reveal mechanics is a good counter, but there arent enough ways to get it. Spellbreaker could be a good counter if sight beyond site wasnt such a trash utility. If it gave resistance and broke stuns it would be a good option. Its to much of a situational choice to realistically be picked.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

If wilbender as a melee class wants to hit a thief he needs 7+ teleports/dashes. 
and since there is 0 classes that have this many dashes/teleports other then thief, it means thief and only thief can hit a thief.
As I said somewhere previously, 1 dash for DD ends the interaction against a melee class unless they use a mobility class, so unless you have 3 or more of those, you cant touch thief that only uses his dash, this doesnt even include blinds, stealths, rupts, sb5, shadowstep.

[Downstate.4697]

5 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

If wilbender as a melee class wants to hit a thief he needs 7+ teleports/dashes. 
and since there is 0 classes that have this many dashes/teleports other then thief, it means thief and only thief can hit a thief.
As I said somewhere previously, 1 dash for DD ends the interaction against a melee class unless they use a mobility class, so unless you have 3 or more of those, you cant touch thief that only uses his dash, this doesnt even include blinds, stealths, rupts, sb5, shadowstep.

I run a soulbeast build that can outpace a thief but loses the 1v1 due to stealth.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

12 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I run a soulbeast build that can outpace a thief but loses the 1v1 due to stealth.

post the build then

[Downstate.4697]

6 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

post the build then

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwAExflVwoYPMI2JW2W6P9BEB-zZIPjMVB9KFU4A

[Kovu.7560]

One could make the argument that individual teleportation skills aren't the issue so much as a couple of professions being able to chain them together along with stealth. That said, I feel the game needs fewer teleports that allow folks to disengage and more teleports that allow players to close the gap and/or reposition slightly. Leap skills are a little different because they're telegraphed, can be interrupted, aren't nearly as instantaneous and usually don't cover the same distance as a shadowstep skill (barring the exception of some ranger leaps). Tack a little skill onto the use of these teleports and force them to require a target such as a guardian's sword. I like the change they made to Ride the Lightning many years ago in that if the skill doesn't end with a hit on the enemy the cooldown is doubled. The game should have more of that to encourage folks to fight rather than run away and I would be entirely okay with every movement skill in the game getting that treatment in some form.

~ Kovu

[FarmBotXD.1430]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwAExflVwoYPMI2JW2W6P9BEB-zZIPjMVB9KFU4A

Not only will this not outpace the thief, but also die to everything, including a breeze