There should be zero rewards for losses, and actually lose pips for losses in a row.

[Ashgar.3024]

3 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

https://i.imgur.com/lNWggjX.png

This line of thinking will never allow anything to be done. Losing is losing, winning is winning. That's generally what's accepted, and that's also what I feel. Losing doesn't need to be losing and then something more. How would they even remove pips if someone got a chest? Would it delete the rewards from your inventory?

Freebie pips should just go to Unranked or away, and it should be left at that.

I wish you peace and harmony, and I hope you find CMC and welcome them into your life. 🙏

Tough guy talk is cute and all but making an already dying game mode even more miserable sounds like a really bad idea. Just saying.

[Gundam Style.8495]

4 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

https://i.imgur.com/lNWggjX.png

This line of thinking will never allow anything to be done. Losing is losing, winning is winning. That's generally what's accepted, and that's also what I feel. Losing doesn't need to be losing and then something more. How would they even remove pips if someone got a chest? Would it delete the rewards from your inventory?

Freebie pips should just go to Unranked or away, and it should be left at that.

I wish you peace and harmony, and I hope you find CMC and welcome them into your life. 🙏

ah, thanks for reminding me. also losing should stop rewarding anything in reward tracks. cmc can drink more water, but he needs to relinguish pvp. someone with actual FU power needs to be in charge of it, otherwise gg. I wish you only the best in your real life. Be successful, be wealthy, be healthy. Peace.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

4 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Tough guy talk is cute and all but making an already dying game mode even more miserable sounds like a really bad idea. Just saying.

Miserable is subjective.

Some might be happy to be rid of all the bots and AFKs that exist because of these freebie rewards. That doesn't sound very miserable to me.

But then again, i'm probably biased having played and gotten used to every other competitive game where losing means you lost and not "Yeah; I lost, but I also got paid."

[Ashgar.3024]

11 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Miserable is subjective.

Some might be happy to be rid of all the bots and AFKs that exist because of these freebie rewards. That doesn't sound very miserable to me.

But then again, i'm probably biased having played and gotten used to every other competitive game where losing means you lost and not "Yeah; I lost, but I also got paid."

You know if you want to just play with your gym bros you can make private servers right?

 

And what game gives you flat nothing for losing lol, any game with any kind of RPG mechanics or skins or whatever give you some kind of currency even if  you lose.

 

Most of your issues would solve itself if people actually wanted to play the game mode as-is. Giving them less reasons to do so by outright cutting rewards from it by 50% (assuming the matchmaking works properly) sounds like the best way to kill off what's left of the playerbase.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

3 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

You know if you want to just play with your gym bros you can make private servers right?

hwat?

3 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

And what game gives you flat nothing for losing lol.

Well it would be easier to name the ones that don't, or else get ready to read an essay-length post doing nothing but naming off multiplayer games, but I don't really want to do that.

So speaking just for multiplayer Ranked modes in games, here's just a few from my library:

Overwatch, Paladins, League, Apex Legends, Smash Ultimate, CS:GO, Hunt: Showdown, Darkest Dungeon: Butcher's Circus

I'm clearly starting to reach here. The point being, there's a lot.

And that's not counting things like xp/battlepass progress because that doesn't matter. The equivalent is PvP rank/reward tracks in PvP, both of which have always existed since the game's launch and aren't profitable enough to attract bots.

Freebie pips didn't, and there's nothing like them in most competitive games. I imagine its obvious to most devs what would happen to their game if they did 🤖

[Nimrael.9621]

If they remove rewards for losing, I'm out of sPVP, so are all my friends and I imagine a LOT of people.

The amount of games already ruined by AFKers and bots is unbalanced classes (they get a necro, you don't, game's already super hard) is too much my time on the losing side to reward nothing.

If that were the case, I'd rather go play Lost Ark.

[Undertaker.4368]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:53 AM, Gundam Style.8495 said:

You simply can not reward losers or losing. It does not build character or competitive spirit. It does not matter if mcskeevey doesnt want his time wasted. His time needs to be useless when he loses, so his gain will be knowledge and improvment and desire to lose less. Awarding anything for a loss is why most people fail, even in life. You have to hold people accountable. They might feel uncomfortable, but it will cause growth. Why do you think that nothing you tried worked? No balancing worked? Nothing worked? Because you rewarded bots, afkers, and quitters. This is why the mode failed, 100%. Some will say e-sports, or no development, but rewarding losers is why the mode failed. You must, absolutely must, reward only winning. Actually, rating loss should be even more stronger for losses. Also, the average player is not gold, so the soft reset should not be (rating +1200)/2...it should be rating previous season, and you get what you got after 1o placements with the same volatility. Players should more frequently end up in low silver and bronze. They are that terrible. The climb should be difficult for everyone, and no more duo q, at least not with anyone far from your own rating. This mode needs to be stricter, as is, it is a joke.

5 years here  dude/girl  and problmes with not givg awars is a funny.  during this 5 years no matter wjht how much you try  there ALWAYS happen loits in row, bots.  I was at gold but i fall at silver 3  because stuffs happen and what?   Maybe we should  banish people in same situation . What about you? maybe show us you never got bad matches?  Because problem is bigger than few stupid rewards. Problems are people

[Undertaker.4368]

7 hours ago, Nimrael.9621 said:

The amount of games already ruined by AFKers and bots is unbalanced classes (they get a necro, you don't, game's already super hard) is too much my time on the losing side to reward nothing.

That a real probem of pvp. guys that since begin, not even start  do anything go afk and abuse

[Stand The Wall.6987]

arguing against effortless rewards in an mmo is like standing in front of a 10ft wave and expecting to slow it down.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

16 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

You made up a bunch of stuff. I reccomend you take that talent into writing books. But, pvp...is not your outlet. They can't reward losses anymore. It had to end. But, if I am wrong...please, go ahead and link I'm wrong. I really dont care how many come up and say "I member too". Show proof.

 

Alright, come sit on daddy's knee and lemme learn you something, sweetie.

Looking at my messages there are three statements that I made.

• Losing Pips: Losing pips did exist when PvP leagues were introduced in 2015 (Section "League Structure", paragraph 3, sentence 6). This began with Season 1 and specifically was noted in the release notes, and they changed it in Season 2 due to the issues encountered via matchmaking and ultimately abandoned the "losing pips" part in Season 5. 
• Party Size:  December 2016 ANet released a focus on "Better Matches" as a result of a community poll. The resulting request from the GW2 community at the time requested that Ranked matches had a maximum size of 2 in each party (i.e. the duo-queue we currently see). Reviewing the archived forums you could join PvP as a party over that number but I believe it would sometimes split you up between the Red/Blue teams. 
• Participation: This is trickier to give you definitive proof as I am not aware of any player count trackers that specifically analyze PvP participation and split that data by Ranked, Unranked, Stronghold, or Tournament. This would be the only section that is memory based. However, reviewing the GW2 Archive Forum the number of PvP threads that focus on "dead game" are minimal compared to the current GW2 Forums (which I was surprised to see some threads actually asking for Pips in unranked as well).

Penalizations and a focus on "skill over reward" existed in PvP originally and it was deemed to be a negative impact to the mode. Hence why it was changed so heavily to incentivize players to get into the game mode (please see the various PvP release notes available on the Official GW2 Wiki that frequently note "improved rewards").

On the subject of reward, why would anyone play anything if the rewards aren't there? PvP, WvW, Dungeons, Fractals, Strikes, Raids, Open World Bosses, Meta Events--everything in this game rewards participation at a bare minimum. There is nothing anymore than actively penalizes you for failing barring less rewards.

Yes, your concern about bot farming is valid and an active issue the playerbase has noted frequently. But removing rewards or adding active penalization to someone getting into a mode simply de-incentivizes them from playing that mode.

If you want to "build character or competitive spirit", maybe you should be playing the high tier PvP content (Automated Tournaments) with the rest of those who want to push their limits rather than slumming. And please note that the Automated Tournaments also provide participation rewards, so even the high level players focused on skill still enjoy their pat ont he back and a deposit into their bank account.

Now run along sonny.

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

 

• Losing Pips: Losing pips did exist when PvP leagues were introduced in 2015 (Section "League Structure", paragraph 3, sentence 6). This began with Season 1 and specifically was noted in the release notes, and they changed it in Season 2 due to the issues encountered via matchmaking and ultimately abandoned the "losing pips" part in Season 5. 
• Party Size:  December 2016 ANet released a focus on "Better Matches" as a result of a community poll. The resulting request from the GW2 community at the time requested that Ranked matches had a maximum size of 2 in each party (i.e. the duo-queue we currently see). Reviewing the archived forums you could join PvP as a party over that number but I believe it would sometimes split you up between the Red/Blue teams. 
• Participation: This is trickier to give you definitive proof as I am not aware of any player count trackers that specifically analyze PvP participation and split that data by Ranked, Unranked, Stronghold, or Tournament. This would be the only section that is memory based. However, reviewing the GW2 Archive Forum the number of PvP threads that focus on "dead game" are minimal compared to the current GW2 Forums (which I was surprised to see some threads actually asking for Pips in unranked as well).

 

 

Some of this just doesn't sound right, thinking about it.

When you say losing pips, that's because its the original design for rating in Ranked. If you didn't lose pips back then, then it would be physically impossible to ever rank down. 

Pip rewards have been as they are now for as long as they've existed. There is no way to lose those.

 

Parties have never been able to split across teams, because that would lead to hella match manipulation, wintrading, and boosting. As a matter of fact, that's how most top players manipulate matches today. Its all about getting someone you know on the other team.

Party size has changed a lot, especially in the first few Ranked seasons. That particular update(season 5) brought us back to solo/duoQ because some genius thought that only allowing players to queue in groups of 2, 3, or 5 was a good idea. There was no SoloQ, and therefore there was very little people actually playing Ranked. 

 

Speaking of, that was probably the main complaint back then on the old forums. "I don't want to play Ranked because I can't play it." Reasonable concern, no?

That's ignoring individual balance concerns of course, because that's what everyone should do about individual balance concerns.

Personally, I think the main reason the PvP section of the forums has turned into nothing but complaints and bitterness is because of neglect. After a turbulent first few seasons, Ranked became as we know it today, and it has changed very little since that same December update back in 2016. 

Back then; even if on accident, Arenanet actually addressed community concerns relating to the structure of Ranked games.

For years now, they have not done so. Its been nothing but a slow drip-feed of balance patches that people are never really happy about.  And if you don't believe that, its cheaper than therapy at least.

[Ashgar.3024]

9 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

arguing against effortless rewards in an mmo is like standing in front of a 10ft wave and expecting to slow it down.

This is so cynical lol. Its a video game first and foremost. Besides 99% of people actually play for their reward, ragers/bots etc. should have an abysmal w/l ratio at the rating you play if you put that much effort into the game. Your efforts are still acknowledged.

 

I don't even disagree with the feeling behind what you guys are saying but bottom line most people who sit in front of a video game after dealing with their actual responsibilities aren't going to agree, its just a fact.

[Zaxares.5419]

I understand the frustration, but I can 100% GUARANTEE you that your suggestion, if implemented, would result in a complete abandonment of PvP by the majority of lowbies, and then the PvP scene will become even deader than it is now. This is exactly what happened with Dragon Ball, where since there are zero rewards for the loser, as soon as it becomes obvious that one team is losing, that team gives up entirely and just quits the match or just afks at spawn ("to make it faster"). So the only people left will be the diehards, the match manipulators, and the bots.

[Spellhunter.9675]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:39 PM, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Penalizations and a focus on "skill over reward" existed in PvP originally and it was deemed to be a negative impact to the mode. Hence why it was changed so heavily to incentivize players to get into the game mode (please see the various PvP release notes available on the Official GW2 Wiki that frequently note "improved rewards").

I bet if we start to slowly revert every pvp related change pvp will start getting better.

[Luthan.5236]

Do it. And less people will play. If you get bad luck a few times - with others ruining your match (afker) or matchmaking ... you might just play other stuff instead. With still getting a few pips ... well you still get a few pips and might try again (in hopes for more pips when winning).

You basically are being "paid" for the time you spend playing this game mode. Without this "payment" a lot less players might play it ... then even more complaints about the too low playerbase.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[nolasthitnotomorrow.8563]

Can't believe you are serious. Please close the topic and let's move on... What a guy..m

[Rose.2593]

Except for the increase in PIPs on the league reward track winning hardly makes a difference so no thanks.

Edited February 21, 2022 by John.8507

[Downstate.4697]

Pvp exclusive rewards. Open up a shop between seasons where you can spend points earned from ranked pvp. Winning gives 15 and losing gives 5. Make a tiered item system with the most expensive stuff costing 1k tickets. Everybody wins but winners win more. They could also make them sellable for 10s each.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I think the game just needs to scale rewards by your team's final score. 500=100%, 250=50%, 125=25%.

 

This way, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, it encourages your team to instead do the best they can (even if the match is a blowout) so they come away with as many rewards as possible even with a lost game.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Cynz.9437]

Mmmm, given how game tries to balance out matches so you get eventually 50% win rate it would be way too punishing, OP. Just saying.

[Gundam Style.8495]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:58 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

You know if you want to just play with your gym bros you can make private servers right?

 

And what game gives you flat nothing for losing lol, any game with any kind of RPG mechanics or skins or whatever give you some kind of currency even if  you lose.

 

Most of your issues would solve itself if people actually wanted to play the game mode as-is. Giving them less reasons to do so by outright cutting rewards from it by 50% (assuming the matchmaking works properly) sounds like the best way to kill off what's left of the playerbase.

Those who are just there for the rewards are not "the playerbase", they are the farmers. Rewards are bonkers for losing. I saw an idea that you could just multibox two alts in 2 v 2, without actually trying. Everyone will beat you, but you can afk and run a macro to accept matches, don't even need to bot. Just afk, and lose. Hurts no one, because it is free win for other team. But you earn free gold while you sleep. Rewards for losing is taken to the extreme by professional or full time botters. They play thousands and thousands of matches across hundreds of accounts, and it doesn't matter if their bots are any good, because you get rewards. Some keep parroting that bots are gone, but they are not as you can still get the programs and kits on the internets. Remember the internet is forever, and just because the old stopped development and support (minion and fire) doesn't mean that nothing works. You can also still use the speed hack. That was a bit off topic, but the main point is free rewards has much more negatives than positives, and it fosters an "oh well" attitude. Now, they can boost the rewards in winning, like i think I said, and also consider making a non tradeable, non changeable currency for losers to buy more shards or tickets with but no gold.

[ramorambo.6701]

If anything the flat gain could be lowered while giving emphasis on pip boost based on your rating, right now you only get a little boost when you get to plat and above, that little boost should instead start from silver and improve every tier (silver 1 gives 1 extra tick, silver 2 gives 2 extra ticks, silver 3 gives 3 extra ticks, gold 1 gives 5 extra ticks, gold 2 gives 6 extra ticks, etc. ).

That would actually give a reason to play games and to remain at high rating, thus to win

[captrowdy.9561]

You are aware this a casual mmo right? Maybe find a different game. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Dudes trying to act as if gw2 pvp is some sort of real life grind instead of just a video game people play for fun and to pass time. What "character growth" are you gonna find in busting your kitten on an mmo pvp? This doesn't even have a real competitive scene.

Only thing valid here would be to cut pip gains when losing, and increasing pip gain when winning to compensate, so as to drive out bots a little bit. Losing pips is the dumbest thing ever.

Before yall start coming up with bizarre ideas like these how about we try actually having balance patches? And I mean more than one or two per year. The fact we still have placeholder traits for pvp after 2 full years should be indicative of what the priorities should be.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:00 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

arguing against effortless rewards in an mmo is like standing in front of a 10ft wave and expecting to slow it down.

It's not so much this as it is "rewarding people for winning when team presence is up to chance" is really dumb and will backfire spectacularly. 

You wouldn't play a raid boss where the game lasts 15 minutes or longer, and wiping gets you nothing, but you also cannot decide who you tackle that challenge with. It will not only make the pool of people willing to attempt that miniscule, but toxicity in the matches will skyrocket in every way, from people throwing because nobody fell in line with their dumb strategy up to people saboing a team to guarantee rewards for the other side. 

If you wanna only reward wins and effort rather than just showing up, fine. But the situation needs to be modifiable to ensure people have reasonable control over their competitive state entering the game. 
 

This is a game. For fun. Not a tournament pool or some other work situation. If it isn't fun and there's a 50/50 chance you waste your time, people will just not waste their time queueing. Or they will and get really ***ing mad when people sandbag them. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261