Changes in EoD and Mystic Clovers [Merged]

[Zenli.3684]

Strikes is a strange game mode : part  of the community find them too easy and cheese them in less than 10min (without FS and  CW too long by design) with  a 250li/kp raid squad , the other part is  a total mess of rainbow gear helped by a few geared player who don't want to create their own raid mode squad.

No vocal is required to access, low or no expectation, no hard fails, cc  and therefore no real learning of the game and the class...

Fractals incluing T4 are quite the same, CM have the "hard" CC checks, dps checks and are quite the only non raid content where class knowledge is needed...

 

All calculations done currently are assuming that we will get enough strike currency to buy max MC and clovers per week, if they keep the rate as low as current strike reward it won't be even close.

Even non CM fractales runners are able to afford a few clovers per week using their t1/t2/t3 or rec relics and their login rewards ,the huge impact of the change is on these people not on the CM people who can afford to buy MC coins from trading post when they need them (and if you bother to check UFE kp.me often you will notice that high ufe = high LI/LD and therefore legendary armor already done or with good progress,  backpiece done and shiny legendaries weapons... ). 

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

15 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

What? Did you even read anything or understand anything? What even is this complaint? 
We are going from a lot more then 10 coins, to 10 coins per week to only people who own EoD and also do strikes AND also spend EVERYTHING on coins which is the exact amount you get to transfer to clovers only from the one single source. 

So there will be thousands of less coins in the system unless EoD has other ways to earn them, and the rest will be spent for more expensive clovers.  If nothing else changes the best way to play GW2 will be to buy multiple accounts and spend your time just logging into them if you want to craft legendries. 

 

If nothing else changes, I am expecting coins to go above 3gold each when EoD drops, unless of course they keep manipulating it by injecting fake coins into the system with dev accounts. 
They are trying to remove all incentive to do old content in favour of the new, just like they did with Dungoens, which killed that content off. Unless the people defending this decision like yourself want all old game modes to die? How dare people play the game differently then you do, right? 

They're back down to 1 gold, 92 silver now though. And yeah I understand it perfectly.

But what if more people do Strike mission CMs than Fractal CMs.  For one thing the barrier to entry is much lower.  For another you'll have the gradual ramp of story mode, regular mode, CM mode.  Anet is gambling on more people doing Strike Mission CMs than do Fractal CMs.

I don't expect the coins to go up that much, but you're doing what a lot of people do. Taking one isolated fact and not using the whole cloth  to draw a conclusion. We haven't seen the whole cloth so we can't draw conclusions.

I wish I had a dollar for each time someone said their expectations on this forums with some certainty only to be proven completely wrong, from there'll never be another expansion to we'll never have mounts.  It's never as simple as people think it is.

[Vayne.8563]

17 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

A good feedback. Too bad seemingly nothing that is written in these forum gets ever adressed by Anet though.

It's crystal clear that Anet wants to funnel people into EoD. But the way HOW they do it is pretty dirty.

You really think this is about getting people into EOD. The tiny percentage of the playerbase that regularly does Fractal CMs?  I don't get it.

 

All it would get people into is Strike CMs anyway by that logic.  I think this is a pretty weak argument.  They probably have very different motivations.

They probably think the hard core community is fairly small, and that if people keep doing what they're doing and don't play CM Strikes they won't get any traction and any hope of getting more players into raids is gone.  It's a more reasonable guess than thinking this change was aimed at getting people who probably mostly bought the expansion anyway to get into EoD.

[Astralporing.1957]

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You really think this is about getting people into EOD. The tiny percentage of the playerbase that regularly does Fractal CMs?  I don't get it.

It's the same principle they used many times over before - most visibly when they set out to kill dungeons participation. Yes, they want for people to abandon the old content and move to the new one.

I don't understand this either, but it's exactly how they seem to operate.

 

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

All it would get people into is Strike CMs anyway by that logic.  I think this is a pretty weak argument.  They probably have very different motivations.

See above. That would be consistent to how they acted before.

 

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

They probably think the hard core community is fairly small, and that if people keep doing what they're doing and don't play CM Strikes they won't get any traction and any hope of getting more players into raids is gone.  It's a more reasonable guess than thinking this change was aimed at getting people who probably mostly bought the expansion anyway to get into EoD.

It's still the same way of thinking - trying to push people specifically out of fractal CMs and spread them to new strikes. I mean, those changes would hardly impact those that weren't doing Fractal CMs before.

What it definitely is not is any attempt at stabilizing prices of MCs. I mean, they just announced nuking the (as they themselves said) primary source of MCs in the game at the point when the increase in price for that commodity actually slowed down for a first time in like forever. I'd not be surprised if we'll see another hike in MC prices soon as a direct result of that change.

[Vayne.8563]

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's the same principle they used many times over before - most visibly when they set out to kill dungeons participation. Yes, they want for people to abandon the old content and move to the new one.

I don't understand this either, but it's exactly how they seem to operate.

 

See above. That would be consistent to how they acted before.

 

It's still the same way of thinking - trying to push people specifically out of fractal CMs and spread them to new strikes. I mean, those changes would hardly impact those that weren't doing Fractal CMs before.

What it definitely is not is any attempt at stabilizing prices of MCs. I mean, they just announced nuking the (as they themselves said) primary source of MCs in the game at the point when the increase in price for that commodity actually slowed down for a first time in like forever. I'd not be surprised if we'll see another hike in MC prices soon as a direct result of that change.

But they're not pushing people out of Fractals, only Fractal CMs which is a very small percentage of the fractal population, if I'm not mistaken.

Strike missions are vital for Anet to revitalize raids. If they don't get the raid population up., the raiding population will have major problems, since new raids aren't being made.  I'm pretty sure some devs would like to make raids, but they can't do it without more people raiding.  I don't believe enough people do Fractal CMs to make enough of a difference. This isn't a dungeon situation where every dungeon was kills. This is a reduction of a single part of the reward from what is probably some of the least played content in the game.  Anet moving the rewards is encouraging people to try this newer thing, which at least has the potential to improve the end game raiding scene.

It's so easy to say oh this did this to dungeons so it's the same.  Fractal CMs are not fractals and, in my opinion, far more people did dungeons than do Fractal CMs currently. That's why I think this is a storm in a teacup.

I'm still against it. I still think removing that reward is a mistake. I never said otherwise. I really do hope Anet compensates those people for the mystic coins they're not getting, but I don't think it's as big a deal to the game as a whole as some people seem to think it is.

[George.9745]

39 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Strike missions are vital for Anet to revitalize raids. If they don't get the raid population up., the raiding population will have major problems, since new raids aren't being made

How on earth will strikes resolve the raids issue? Listen, I got a super good idea. I bet NOBODY thought about this. HOW ABOUT making more raid to revitalize raids? No? That's wrong? Oh alright. Sorry

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But they're not pushing people out of Fractals, only Fractal CMs which is a very small percentage of the fractal population, if I'm not mistaken.

If fractal CM population was so insignificant, they would not go out of their way to nerf those rewards. If they did, it's only because there's enough people in there that it actually matters.

 

36 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Strike missions are vital for Anet to revitalize raids. If they don't get the raid population up., the raiding population will have major problems, since new raids aren't being made.  I'm pretty sure some devs would like to make raids, but they can't do it without more people raiding.  I don't believe enough people do Fractal CMs to make enough of a difference.

Sure, Fractal CM players may be insignificant when compared to overall game population, but is it so insignificant if you compare it to (also not so big) population of raids and strikes? I don't think so.

And, apperently Anet also doesn't think so, because this change is clearly aimed at Fractal CM players, not at anyone else. If they only cared about bringing other players into strikes, they would not be nerfing fractal CM rewards at the same time. They would simply add those to Strikes.

[Cyninja.2954]

23 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If fractal CM population was so insignificant, they would not go out of their way to nerf those rewards. If they did, it's only because there's enough people in there that it actually matters.

Not actually true.

 

There are other motives:

1. as mentioned and obvious: to incentivize other content. I doubt fractals are discontinued, but it is rather clear that the focus right now lies on strikes and their varying difficulties. Changes are being made game wide to prepare for this shift.

 

2. incentivize players to play more than 1 content. I've farmed fractals myself. I've had my god title for over 2.5 years by now. Fractal CM players are among the part of the player base which "could" diversify into raids or strike CMs. The developers are re-balancing fractals to not be a sole reason for players to log into. Fractal CMs still have their respective rewards. They still cut the time to fractal god down from 592 days (1.6 years) to 229 days.

 

3. purchase incentive of EoD. The same way we saw fractal masteries added with HoT.

 

The fractal CM population IS insignificant size wise. Mystic Coin wise, and with a game wide look, chances are high that adding Mystic Coins to strikes will bring more Mystic Coins to the game overall than fractal CMs ever did.

 

The big cost increase is with the cost for Mystic Clovers costing 1 coin more. Which seems to indicate the developers want to facilitate and establish a road to legendary gear progression for more players to follow, while removing outliers in acquiring Mystic Clovers for a lot cheaper (and don't get me started on all those Spvp and WvW comparisons with the 2 clovers per 4-8 hours, hilarious).

 

Quote

Sure, Fractal CM players may be insignificant when compared to overall game population, but is it so insignificant if you compare it to (also not so big) population of raids and strikes? I don't think so.

 

I think if you looked at fractal CM players and the amount of those which actually play fractal CMs AND raids (and potentially strikes), you'd be surprised how little the group gets which does only do fractal CMs.

Quote

And, apperently Anet also doesn't think so, because this change is clearly aimed at Fractal CM players, not at anyone else. If they only cared about bringing other players into strikes, they would not be nerfing fractal CM rewards at the same time. They would simply add those to Strikes.

 

They care to encourage capable players to spread into other content besides their daily fractal farm, especially the ones which only sit in fractals and even more those which just auto farm them.

 

Fractal CMs will now be primarily a goal for players which:

1. are working towards fractal god

2. are working towards the cosmetic rewards purchased for UFE

3. can make use of the Integrated Fractal Matrix (which is still 2.6-3 gold a piece, so close to 10 addition gold per day for all 3 CMs) for infusions or keys or so

 

Players are once again overreacting, just like the Mystic Coin spike which lasted a whooping 24 hours, over having their rewards slightly shaved at the very top end.

 

So many comments about "oh but Final Fantasy does this, Final Fantasy does that, it has multiple difficulties, etc." yet the moment the developers start implementing balance changes to actually encourage players here to play similar content in this game with similar accessibility, the usual freak out happens.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[VPX.1325]

Since the announced changes to the Mystic Coins and Clovers that will be made with the Upcoming Expansion

have quote:" We want to spread the love to other types of content.." in mind, why not use this opportunity to add those rewards to dungeons,

in a similar way as it will be implemented in Raids and Strike missions.

My proposai is this one:

Add 2 Mystic coins to the Dungeon frequenter achievment reward, (you can reduce the current gold return to balance things)

add the option to buy maximum 5 Mystic Clovers per week from Dungeon merchants spending 300 (any dungeon currency), 2 Mystic Coins, 2 Orbs of ectoplasm, 2 Spirit Shards.

[MarkoGold.7126]

this is not about spreading the love to other content or whatever nonsence anet is pushing they will add mc coins to the new strikes falsly inflating their importance since its the new shiny thing. dungeons bro i would be shocked if there were devs at anet who could read their dungeons code left. 

[DodonRay.8740]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

They're back down to 1 gold, 92 silver now though. And yeah I understand it perfectly.

But what if more people do Strike mission CMs than Fractal CMs.  For one thing the barrier to entry is much lower.  For another you'll have the gradual ramp of story mode, regular mode, CM mode.  Anet is gambling on more people doing Strike Mission CMs than do Fractal CMs.

I don't expect the coins to go up that much, but you're doing what a lot of people do. Taking one isolated fact and not using the whole cloth  to draw a conclusion. We haven't seen the whole cloth so we can't draw conclusions.

I wish I had a dollar for each time someone said their expectations on this forums with some certainty only to be proven completely wrong, from there'll never be another expansion to we'll never have mounts.  It's never as simple as people think it is.

You say more people ll play strike cms than fractals? cmonn man. Most of my friends who can do fractal cms cant do raids if ı wont open tag. are you aware how hard to handle the 10 ppl content? kek.

Edited February 14, 2022 by DodonRay.8740

[Archer.4362]

As they said above what happened to the dungeons, they want us to buy the expansion and not play the old content. the usual anet

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, George.9745 said:

How on earth will strikes resolve the raids issue? Listen, I got a super good idea. I bet NOBODY thought about this. HOW ABOUT making more raid to revitalize raids? No? That's wrong? Oh alright. Sorry

10 man content preparing someone for ten man content.  Having a strike with a raid like boss?  Most raids are just a series of bosses anyway. Maybe an event on the way, but most raids, they're boss fights.  What's a strike, a 10-man boss fight. 

The problem is you don't realize that a strike could be a raid, if they made the CM complex enough, with enough phases and mechanics to kill bosses.  I've done some raid training runs, and I don't see why those bosses couldn't be strike bosses, if that's what Anet was going for.  Or something just below, very very slightly easier.

Are you saying Cairn couldn't be a strike boss?  Honestly, your need to argue here is mystifying.  A strike is structured similarly to a raid, down to having the same rez rules.

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If fractal CM population was so insignificant, they would not go out of their way to nerf those rewards. If they did, it's only because there's enough people in there that it actually matters.

 

Sure, Fractal CM players may be insignificant when compared to overall game population, but is it so insignificant if you compare it to (also not so big) population of raids and strikes? I don't think so.

And, apperently Anet also doesn't think so, because this change is clearly aimed at Fractal CM players, not at anyone else. If they only cared about bringing other players into strikes, they would not be nerfing fractal CM rewards at the same time. They would simply add those to Strikes.

You don't think so.  I don't think so. He doesn't think so.   If only someone had the numbers of how many people were doing each thing.  Oh wait, someone does have those numbers.  That would be Anet. We're arguing in a vacuum. It doesn't matter so much what we think.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, DodonRay.8740 said:

You say more people ll play strike cms than fractals? cmonn man. Most of my friends who can do fractal cms cant do raids if ı wont open tag. are you aware how hard to handle the 10 ppl content? kek.

See that's what's wrong with people. They make assumptions about stuff they haven't seen yet.
Having a story instance that most people will do introducing them to a specific boss, than adding stuff to that boss to make it so that you can a strike, and then adding a CM mode to that is a ramp.  It's not a ramp that requires attaining 150 AR either.  It's more straightforward, less confusing.

Yes, I consider it entirely possible that more people will do Strike CMs than Fractal CMs.  Considering I've done raids and haven't done Fractal CMs, yep. I think that's a possibility.

[HotDelirium.7984]

16 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

10 man content preparing someone for ten man content.  Having a strike with a raid like boss?  Most raids are just a series of bosses anyway. Maybe an event on the way, but most raids, they're boss fights.  What's a strike, a 10-man boss fight. 

The problem is you don't realize that a strike could be a raid, if they made the CM complex enough, with enough phases and mechanics to kill bosses.  I've done some raid training runs, and I don't see why those bosses couldn't be strike bosses, if that's what Anet was going for.  Or something just below, very very slightly easier.

Are you saying Cairn couldn't be a strike boss?  Honestly, your need to argue here is mystifying.  A strike is structured similarly to a raid, down to having the same rez rules.

What's sad is that ANET has tried to convey their intentions of strikes becoming the new raids without specifically saying that and its just not getting through to people.

You are correct that a typical raid is usually just mechanics heavy boss fights or a mechanics heavy event.

To alleviate the weird place raids is at in GW2, this seems like their version of a compromise with the upcoming implementation of strike missions.

We will have our story mode, regular mode and challenge mode. The new changes to strike missions will be the new "raids." I'm excited to see them and just really wish they never made those earlier raids in the beginning since there is so much story lore there and the majority of the community has missed out on them. Wouldn't it be interesting if one day they made earlier raid bossess into future strikes? If marionette came back anything is possible.

Edited February 14, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[Vayne.8563]

20 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

What's sad is that ANET has tried to convey their intentions of strikes becoming the new raids without specifically saying that and its just not getting through to people.

You are correct that a typical raid is usually just mechanics heavy boss fights or a mechanics heavy event.

To alleviate the weird place raids is at in GW2, this seems like their version of a compromise with the upcoming implementation of strike missions.

We will have our story mode, regular mode and challenge mode. The new changes to strike missions will be the new "raids." I'm excited to see them and just really wish they never made those earlier raids in the beginning since there is so much story lore there and the majority of the community has missed out on them. Wouldn't it be interesting if one day they made earlier raid bossess into future strikes? If marionette came back anything is possible.

I think (and have always thought) that the term raid itself is mired in contraversy.  Even before raids were introduced into this game, there's a boatload of people who were against raids, based on raids from other games. Strikes don't have the same connotation.  I think if Anet had called raids strikes from the beginning we might not even be here. So many people were already burned out from raiding in other games.

I don't seem to mind doing a single strike boss, but I don't love the idea of raiding and I know it's mental at this point, but it's still there.  Calling them strikes might get more people into raids, because at some point they might realize they're already sorta raiding.

But I still prefer 5 man instanced content to 10 man instanced content.

[Andy.5981]

Not sure if this has been posted within this thread yet, but it is worth reading this Reddit post by Solar who co-authored the post on the Official website. It explains quite a bit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ssg8zm/clearing_up_some_misconceptions_from_this_weekend/

[Shadowmoon.7986]

35 minutes ago, Andy.5981 said:

Not sure if this has been posted within this thread yet, but it is worth reading this Reddit post by Solar who co-authored the post on the Official website. It explains quite a bit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ssg8zm/clearing_up_some_misconceptions_from_this_weekend/

Pretty much confirms my "eat the rich" mentality theory.  If  coin were crashing to worthlessness like ectos I would understand. Ultimately saying the price will not change after saying supply and demand will increase is presumptuous. Also citing the lowest mc have been in months in your calculus for reward loss is disengenious.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Shadowmoon.7986

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:32 PM, ReaverKane.7598 said:

Boon target limits

You say one thing, and do the opposite, sorry, but that's how it ends up being, instead of restricting us and forcing mirror compositions in raids (or akin to that), why not just unlock MORE professions with 10 target boons. Put the 10 target option behind traits, like in Renegade, so people will have to make a trade-off to get those, and that way you DO make the game more balanced, and DO give people more options, because right now what you're doing is forcing us to funnel the raid composition to a point where 60% of the group is going to be bound to specific roles, instead of allowing us the flexibility to choose.

While I'm not that stung by the loss of MCs from CMs (because I never ran them anyways), I will 10000000% agree with this criticism of ANet's approach to adjusting group play.

They tried to get rid of the dominance of quickness chronotank by reducing the quickness target to 5. All that accomplished was to make groups run TWO chronos instead of one. If quickbrand didn't turn out to be the kittenously broken OP spec that it is, we'd all still be in double chronojail.

Seems like "spreading the love" is not a concept this studio knows how to pull off, in terms of both gameplay and economics.

[HotDelirium.7984]

10 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

While I'm not that stung by the loss of MCs from CMs (because I never ran them anyways), I will 10000000% agree with this criticism of ANet's approach to adjusting group play.

They tried to get rid of the dominance of quickness chronotank by reducing the quickness target to 5. All that accomplished was to make groups run TWO chronos instead of one. If quickbrand didn't turn out to be the kittenously broken OP spec that it is, we'd all still be in double chronojail.

Seems like "spreading the love" is not a concept this studio knows how to pull off, in terms of both gameplay and economics.

Do boons follow an algorithm for application when you're in the 5 man subgroup? Like if 3 people in your subgroup are near you and the other 1 is way too far away to get it then the first applications generally go to you and the closest members than anyone else randomly nearby?

Edited February 15, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Do boons follow an algorithm for application when you're in the 5 man subgroup? Like if 3 people in your subgroup are near you and the other 1 is way too far away to get it then the first applications generally go to you and the closest members than anyone else randomly nearby?

Yes. the prioritization is first group, and then range. So, in this case, you will get one boon, the next 3 will go to the remaining 3 group members in range, and the last will go to the nearest player from the other subgroup.

[mtpelion.4562]

I wish I had seen this article before I bought EoD. I kind of want my money back now.

 

Nuking the game's economy in an attempt to coerce players into 10-man content is going to be the end of GW2.

 

You've just told all casual players to leave the game with this change. 

[mythical.6315]

19 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

Not sure if this has been posted within this thread yet, but it is worth reading this Reddit post by Solar who co-authored the post on the Official website. It explains quite a bit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ssg8zm/clearing_up_some_misconceptions_from_this_weekend/

This certainly supports what I had been saying all earlier in this thread that the profit loss would be minimal for fractal CMs. It also shows that the average mystic coins earned was also very close to what I was claiming that they were. The post also confirms that while mystic coins were a large source, they definitely were not the largest by a very very large margin. 
 

Any thoughts @George.9745 @Linken.6345 @Asum.4960 ?  

Edited February 15, 2022 by mythical.6315

[The Boz.2038]

Take the listed profit lost, and double it, because 
a) you don't get the mystic coins, which is a direct loss in the reward, which can be converted into a monetary value
b) you don't have the mystic coins to buy the conversion into clovers, which you now have to buy off the TP
c) you now need twice as many mystic coins to complete the conversion into one clover, compared to before