Nerf confirmed for Renegade, Firebrand, and Scourge with Expansion launch

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The funny thing is people surprised to see nerfs to their "loved" professions...FOTM specs get always nerfed..soon or later all FOTM specs receive the rightful nerfs.

I am expecting Renegade and Scrapper to see nerfs in WvW soon or later, way too dominants and oppressive specs

I think it depends, at least in part, on whether there's something that can come in and do the same job.

Firebrand and renegade are bringing quickness and alacrity respectively. If they get nerfed to death (hopefully ArenaNet will be a bit more measured than that), there are plenty of builds that can replace them.

In WvW, the main jobs of support guardians (especially firebrands) and support scrappers are stability and swiftness/superspeed. ArenaNet didn't seem to think to increase availability of these boons in the new elite specialisations, so if they get nerfed, what would 'replace' them would likely be...adding more of them until you have enough to do the same job.

[The Boz.2038]

None of the new specs touch a guardian's monopoly on at-will stability or aegis. So...

[Puck.3697]

18 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Thief also has 10-man might and fury, not that it means much since they both are dealt out like candy. If they are going to remove the 10-man barrier they'll probably remove DE's 10-man.

Thought it was cut to 5? Might be wrong tho 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

None of the new specs touch a guardian's monopoly on at-will stability or aegis. So...

Yeah imho firebrand should lose quickness and willbender should gain it. 

As willbender doesn't have access to the other boons and it'd also prevent willbender being a complete let down. 

As for aegis / stability spread. I think warrior should gain access to both. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[hash.8462]

28 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yeah imho firebrand should lose quickness and willbender should gain it. 

As willbender doesn't have access to the other boons and it'd also prevent willbender being a complete let down. 

As for aegis / stability spread. I think warrior should gain access to both. 

Willbender is getting area Alacrity (Phoenix Protocol + Battle Presence).

I suoppose Warriors will get some aoe boons when banners are reworked.

Aegis is also used by Mesmers... nothing compared to FB of course.

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, hash.8462 said:

Willbender is getting area Alacrity (Phoenix Protocol + Battle Presence).

I suoppose Warriors will get some aoe boons when banners are reworked.

Aegis is also used by Mesmers... nothing compared to FB of course.

But as far as I'm aware willbender gains alacrity is a very weird way that isn't capable of being held up 100%, ontop of this Cmc has confirmed they don't intend for it to have 100% uptime either. 

Which makes it the worst option for alacrity in the game. 

So currently willbender is a a lower DPS option of DH with 70% odd reliable alacrity uptime. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Thought it was cut to 5? Might be wrong tho 

Nah, its still 10-man currently. Its 5-man x2 with FfE procing on both you and your target.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Nah, its still 10-man currently. Its 5-man x2 with FfE procing on both you and your target.

That other x5 still prioritizes your subgroup, not the target's subgroup, doesn't it.

[Zacchary.6183]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That other x5 still prioritizes your subgroup, not the target's subgroup, doesn't it.

Idk the details, but even if it procs twice players can only be affected by it once. It is most likely like scourge's 10-man because they work the same way (can only be affected once per cast).

Edited February 22, 2022 by Zacchary.6183

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yeah imho firebrand should lose quickness and willbender should gain it. 

As willbender doesn't have access to the other boons and it'd also prevent willbender being a complete let down. 

As for aegis / stability spread. I think warrior should gain access to both. 

Its not a bad idea to move quickness out of FB to other elites on first glance but Firebrand is just too much build around quickness. It would require a complete overhaul. 

Completely gut aegis sharing. The boon is op anyway. I think players would adapt in all modes. 

As for stability, it would hurt wvw greatly. I think a better option would be to have a second support with such capabilities. An elite warrior shout that has charges and gives stability. Reliable source on support warr but cant take both stab and SB bubble otherwise we get another overloaded spec and wvw battles would become endless bubble kiting. 

[Zaret.1450]

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it depends, at least in part, on whether there's something that can come in and do the same job.

Firebrand and renegade are bringing quickness and alacrity respectively. If they get nerfed to death (hopefully ArenaNet will be a bit more measured than that), there are plenty of builds that can replace them.

In WvW, the main jobs of support guardians (especially firebrands) and support scrappers are stability and swiftness/superspeed. ArenaNet didn't seem to think to increase availability of these boons in the new elite specialisations, so if they get nerfed, what would 'replace' them would likely be...adding more of them until you have enough to do the same job.

but in wvw you are in a scuad with 50 people, sure there are metas but i think wvw is less restrictive in some aspects, while on others it is much more just because of the game mode, in pve fractals, raids etc you need most clases to be around the same because otherwhise youll never see variety in 10 man or 5 man groups.

firebrand is too powerfull in a pve enviroment, the same comes to renegade, and that difference can be seen on benchmarks for example, a benchmark of pve tells you the full power of a class/elite what that thing can do optimiced and in a raid or fractal the difference is just mecanics or boss stats, wvw is completely diferent as player skill matters more in a pvp enviroment than a pve one i think.

[Infusion.7149]

43 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Its not a bad idea to move quickness out of FB to other elites on first glance but Firebrand is just too much build around quickness. It would require a complete overhaul. 

Completely gut aegis sharing. The boon is op anyway. I think players would adapt in all modes. 

As for stability, it would hurt wvw greatly. I think a better option would be to have a second support with such capabilities. An elite warrior shout that has charges and gives stability. Reliable source on support warr but cant take both stab and SB bubble otherwise we get another overloaded spec and wvw battles would become endless bubble kiting. 

More likely they will make EOD specs the most attractive quickness source , it would not be "gutted" but not the default choice. That is what I anticipate happening especially since catalyst and harbinger are slated to be able to provide might and fury which is the main drawback to chrono and scrapper. Chrono was nerfed to make room for Firebrand after POF so this sort of direction would not be unprecedented.

Mantra of Solace is the primary culprit in PVE so I would expect that to be changed next week.
----

@zaswer

As far as WVW: If you nerf firebrand aegis to non-existence (outside of mantra of solace) despite it oftentimes being consumed on autoattacls,  people will stack heal scrapper + revenants with inspiring reinforcement and chronos with mantra of concentration. Ultimately the only thing keeping firebrand meta in superspeed meta is the aegis and stability as scrapper heals more and so does tempest. Unlike chrono/scrapper you don't have the option of stealth push or portal bomb ; chrono boon rips unlike firebrand.

You can't say that WVW squad isn't rigid if you are trying to be flexible. Only select guilds would be able to run without stability, really. Instead of looking for quickness+alacrity you're looking for stability, heals, cleanses, stealth (optional but really painful without it), superspeed , and boon rips.

9 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but in wvw you are in a scuad with 50 people, sure there are metas but i think wvw is less restrictive in some aspects, while on others it is much more just because of the game mode, in pve fractals, raids etc you need most clases to be around the same because otherwhise youll never see variety in 10 man or 5 man groups.

firebrand is too powerfull in a pve enviroment, the same comes to renegade, and that difference can be seen on benchmarks for example, a benchmark of pve tells you the full power of a class/elite what that thing can do optimiced and in a raid or fractal the difference is just mecanics or boss stats, wvw is completely diferent as player skill matters more in a pvp enviroment than a pve one i think.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but in wvw you are in a scuad with 50 people, sure there are metas but i think wvw is less restrictive in some aspects, while on others it is much more just because of the game mode, in pve fractals, raids etc you need most clases to be around the same because otherwhise youll never see variety in 10 man or 5 man groups.

firebrand is too powerfull in a pve enviroment, the same comes to renegade, and that difference can be seen on benchmarks for example, a benchmark of pve tells you the full power of a class/elite what that thing can do optimiced and in a raid or fractal the difference is just mecanics or boss stats, wvw is completely diferent as player skill matters more in a pvp enviroment than a pve one i think.

WvW squad meta is waaaay more rigid right now as any raid meta. I am not aware of any guild or serious commander that is not running scrapper + FB in every party of a squad. The synergy is just so good. It's a complete support/utility package on 2 players per group who can 90% focus on defensive supporting so it's much easier to coordinate.

And the meta is not much more flexible on the other parts of the squad.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but in wvw you are in a scuad with 50 people, sure there are metas but i think wvw is less restrictive in some aspects, while on others it is much more just because of the game mode, in pve fractals, raids etc you need most clases to be around the same because otherwhise youll never see variety in 10 man or 5 man groups.

firebrand is too powerfull in a pve enviroment, the same comes to renegade, and that difference can be seen on benchmarks for example, a benchmark of pve tells you the full power of a class/elite what that thing can do optimiced and in a raid or fractal the difference is just mecanics or boss stats, wvw is completely diferent as player skill matters more in a pvp enviroment than a pve one i think.

If the commander is trying to optimise, a WvW squad is going to be assembled out of 5-player subgroups. With boons being capped to 5, any desired boon has to be present in every such subgroup.

So if you want stability, you need to repeat that stability in every such subgroup, or you'll have people missing out.

Now, if we were to assume that presently one firebrand or scrapper can provide sufficient stability, that's one firebrand or scrapper per five players, optimally.

If we were to then assume that they get nerfed so you now need two to get enough stability, you're now looking at 40% of the squad needing to be firebrands and scrappers.

The 5-target cap on boons means that any squad, however large, is still made up of 5-player subgroups.

Mind you, a commander whose squad isn't full is probably going to accept pretty much any random player since any warm body in WvW is better than nothing. But nerfing existing stability sources without creating alternatives is just going to make optimised squads want to have more of them, not less.

[Jski.6180]

I think the issue with stab and wvw is that anet put self stab on a 1 min cd but made support stab on a far lower cd (some reason that stab support also hits the caster making it an self stab too). There no real chose but to have stab support as you can never in a real way have self stab any where near that level unless your ones of the stab supporting classes. So an Firebrand nerf to stab support will need to come with self stab buff.

Its been a real mess of balancing for the last 2 years and there has been no major redo after we all seen the problems that came from it. I do not trust anet at all any more because of this. I have no ideal how any one can find any thing trustworthy anet is effectively failing at over and over with confusion and out right misleading info drops.

[Zaret.1450]

ok i think i need to clarify, im not too into wvw, even so wvw is a pvp open world mode and you have zergs, people soloing camps, thiefs being like mosquitoes etc, i think it is more flexible in the end, at least more than static boses like raid or fracts. might be mistaken tho

[anbujackson.9564]

No matter the outcome, a preview of the changes would have been nice. Like they always did lately actually.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Interesting.  All of which are known for their Support role. 

[Knighthonor.4061]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:01 AM, Jski.6180 said:

I think the issue with stab and wvw is that anet put self stab on a 1 min cd but made support stab on a far lower cd (some reason that stab support also hits the caster making it an self stab too). There no real chose but to have stab support as you can never in a real way have self stab any where near that level unless your ones of the stab supporting classes. So an Firebrand nerf to stab support will need to come with self stab buff.

Its been a real mess of balancing for the last 2 years and there has been no major redo after we all seen the problems that came from it. I do not trust anet at all any more because of this. I have no ideal how any one can find any thing trustworthy anet is effectively failing at over and over with confusion and out right misleading info drops.

The issue here stems from Anet's Anti Trinity views from prerelease. This wouldn't be an issue if the game had clearly defined roles, that builds could be balanced around. 

 

Example.  

If you are are a Guardian, and today you want to play Support in WvW. 

There should be a UI element that the player selects in the build menu to select that their build is a Support build. They automatically get bonus Support but self boon spam is reduced.

 

But let's say same Guardian later on decides to play a DPS role. They select that in the build menu and automatically gain a bonus damage. But healing is reduced and support is reduced to compensate. 

 

Kinda how Guardian Willbender traits work, but as a UI element that all classes use. 

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The issue here stems from Anet's Anti Trinity views from prerelease. This wouldn't be an issue if the game had clearly defined roles, that builds could be balanced around. 

 

Example.  

If you are are a Guardian, and today you want to play Support in WvW. 

There should be a UI element that the player selects in the build menu to select that their build is a Support build. They automatically get bonus Support but self boon spam is reduced.

 

But let's say same Guardian later on decides to play a DPS role. They select that in the build menu and automatically gain a bonus damage. But healing is reduced and support is reduced to compensate. 

 

Kinda how Guardian Willbender traits work, but as a UI element that all classes use. 

Well self stab (the issues of nerfing 10 targets on FB and FB over all) being on a 1 min cd and support stab being on more likes of an 30 sec cd is a realty issues if anet is anti trinity view. If anet dose nerf this support stab with out fixing self stab ability there going to be a real issues for game play.

I am truly of the mind the "split" anet likes to do is more of an time delay of balancing and less of an game type split of balancing.

There no real punishment for doing dmg on an boon support build vs say trying to do dmg on an healing build. So it messing up balancing for classes with strong boons vs say classes that are doing healing support builds. So a alacrity willbender will be able to keep top dps with out losing too much with dps out put. Even FB can still keep up good quickness up time and still will have ok dmg. If they wanted to heal support and boon support there is no space for dps. Its just an odd balancing mind set that anet has for the game.

[Avatara.1042]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:24 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

ok i think i need to clarify, im not too into wvw, even so wvw is a pvp open world mode and you have zergs, people soloing camps, thiefs being like mosquitoes etc, i think it is more flexible in the end, at least more than static boses like raid or fracts. might be mistaken tho

 

You are very mistaken.  A zerg with heavy Firebrand and Scrappers will roll over a 'balanced' group of all professions.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I did my last "Fast 5" strike run of the pre-EoD era today.  Pretty typical.  I played weaver as I always do, there was the obligatory druid cuz 10-man, with the 8 other spots consisting of firebrand, renegade, and scourge.  The group leaders called for a swap in a couple of places, but that just meant a firebrand/renegade/scourge adapting their build a bit to cover whatever it was we needed.

I wonder what tomorrow will bring?

[Zaret.1450]

13 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

 

You are very mistaken.  A zerg with heavy Firebrand and Scrappers will roll over a 'balanced' group of all professions.

i meant you have more options, yeah fb an scrapper are op for zergs but you can go solo as thief or mirage or roaming with 2-3 people, that gives you more options i think

 

[Arewn.2368]

Kind of embarrasing that they are launching the xpac without a major balance patch. Especially given how long it took.

 

"We ran out of time" is a really lousy excuse to cut what is typically a primary component of any expansion. Especially given:

-The game's been dead for new content for like a year.

-We haven't had a proper balance patch in that time

-EoD ships with 9 new especs, which you would think practically necessitates balance changes 

 

Hate to be a downer on launch day, but not a good start. EoD better impress.

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

24 minutes ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Kind of embarrasing that they are launching the xpac without a major balance patch. Especially given how long it took.

 

"We ran out of time" is a really lousy excuse to cut what is typically a primary component of any expansion. Especially given:

-The game's been dead for new content for like a year.

-We haven't had a proper balance patch in that time

-EoD ships with 9 new especs, which you would think practically necessitates balance changes 

 

Hate to be a downer on launch day, but not a good start. EoD better impress.

 

 

Well I expect that the new especs have balance changes since the last beta. It would be shocking if they are unchanged from it.

And theyve noted that Renegades, Firebrands and Scourge is getting attention. Most likely negatively, due to their dominance.

Edited February 28, 2022 by LucianDK.8615