"Bring the player, not the profession"-- but you REDUCED the boon cap from 10 to 5?

[Cuks.8241]

On 2/17/2022 at 7:48 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If it weren't for WvW, I'd say remove stability and aegis from being shared entirely.  We have a dodge mechanic.  It's brilliant and we should be using it.

Remove aegis from being shared entirely outside of maybe one long CD source on FB and you solved a lot on the FB. WvW will adapt.

And maybe bring some underdog support on par with stability so we can have some choice there.

[Sugar Min.5834]

On 2/16/2022 at 9:23 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

No different than not end up having to play meta for instanced content.

Put it this way, if meta thinking is going to dominate people's idea of how to play the game, nothing Anet can do is going to fix that. 

This.

It doesn't matter if everyone can give stab, quickness or alac. Only the ones that give the most will be picked. In other words, only selective few meta professions are wanted. Nothing changed.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Mil.3562

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Mil.3562 said:

This.

It doesn't matter if everyone can give stab, quickness or alac. Only the ones that give the most will be picked. In other words, only selective few meta professions are needed. Nothing changed.

That's a very black-and-white view and I don't think it's consistent with reality.  By that logic, classes that aren't in the meta shouldn't even bother trying to join groups.  But that isn't the issue.  The issue is that people want to feel that they're contributing to groups, which is relative.  So, tuning down the extremely overtuned is useful in that sense.  It doesn't necessarily have to remove these classes from the meta and replace them with something else.  It's about bringing better parity.  In fact, we have a word for this.  It's called "Balance".

[Obtena.7952]

51 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's a very black-and-white view and I don't think it's consistent with reality.  By that logic, classes that aren't in the meta shouldn't even bother trying to join groups.  But that isn't the issue.  The issue is that people want to feel that they're contributing to groups, which is relative.  So, tuning down the extremely overtuned is useful in that sense.  It doesn't necessarily have to remove these classes from the meta and replace them with something else.  It's about bringing better parity.  In fact, we have a word for this.  It's called "Balance".

No, by the logic in question, classes that aren't meta shouldn't join PUGs that want meta builds (or whatever else they prefer or specify for their team, just in case we have some pedantrists lurking around). That BTW is the WHOLE issue here because people not feeling they contribute to groups with non-meta builds they play is a PLAYER PERCEPTION problem that doesn't impact joining a group that doesn't care what you play. That's not a class balance issue. It's factually untrue that non-meta builds don't 'contribute' to the team ... so no amount of class balance will fix that. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[MedievalThings.5417]

Remove boon sharing.  Balance around that.  Problem solved.

[Jski.6180]

26 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Remove boon sharing.  Balance around that.  Problem solved.

Just make Quickness and alacrity self only. These 2 boons are so game changing to have or not to have that they are nearly elite skill in them self. By letting them be shier brakes cast time for balanced skills build on the ideal of long cast time or long cd. We are talking about that often only trait lines should be able to effect a classes cd and maybe even cast times. If the skill cant be used with out these boons then that class should give it self though boons before they use that skill. The class should NOT be able to give it to others just because it happens to need it form time to time.

That not the world we live in and the power creep of classes giving game defining effects are way out side of power creep. At best only ppl want to keep other classes from getting these boons in an real way because it threaten the viability of the classes whom already have theirs. Every class or at least ever class though there elite classes should be able to give quickness and alacrity as support on some level. If they are missing support over all then these classes should be able to give them self these boons.

Bring the players boons, not the class that missing the boons.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jski.6180
Going to keep coming up with plays on the saying.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:07 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

[...]

this is ironically a good reference to the Tempest Vs Druid debate.

Druid fetchs a faster kill time, Tempest fetchs a higher Win rate, Most people will bundle onto Druid, and never make use of its DPS Gains because their continously wiping to content, while tempest provides a far easier kill due to what it provides. its a heavy carry in Defensive / healing terms realistically.

[...]

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

[Jski.6180]

22 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

Ewww that just wrong for anet to do that even after buffing drop rates for strikes for coins and nerfing other point of the games loot.

Raid balancing effecting all points of the game is not good for the game and to make speed runs THE best way to run raids is even worst. We are talking a .1% of population of .1% taking over all pve balancing.

Bring the gw2 only life player not the fun class.

[Puck.3697]

49 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

I feel like yeah.. this is a big problem.

The game itself, Promotes the lack of requirement to use optimal builds while simultaniously pushing u to want the most optimal builds... its a Design conflict at best. althoyugh i suspose Wheres the cap.

if its limtless then maybe a problem.. but if theres a Cap to at this point u recieve maximum rewards you'd really have to break it down to figure out if it requires Optimal builds to achieve.

 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

On the one hand, having a time limit makes people want to complete it faster so you don't have angry posts complaining something takes 50 minutes to do when it can be beaten in 5 minutes. On the other hand I would rather have the fractal mechanism where if you beat it you get the reward which is why fractal people seem apathetic to DPS unless it is 98CM where there is a small DPS check on Siax split , maybe coupled with a leaderboard so if you are in a certain percentile you get the extra reward. I think one way that could be rectified is instead of a hard limit you just put an enrage timer so that is the ideal time to beat something within.

You don't need optimal builds to beat Boneskinner , Forging Steel with no CM, or Whisper or Jormag for example. Beating WoJ with 2/2 isn't a massive improvement over 0/2 bonus chest and ultimately only elitists really complain about not meeting it. I would expect no different for EOD strikes.

I think instead of a time duration target being the issue it is modifier stacking that is the issue: a "bad build" does way less damage do to modifiers and we have semi-useless stats in the game such as precision main stat. Arenanet ought to reverse some of the powercreep , the celestial stats given at 80 going forward should alleviate some "do nothing" build combinations. The issue they contend with is if you lower modifiers too much any build that is a support build potentially can be within 10% of a DPS build , which is the problem with supports like cQB/condi RR right now.

---

A move to 5 man boons actually kills druid more than tempest by the way as frost spirit can be brought on soulbeast.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Ashantara.8731]

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

On the one hand, having a time limit makes people want to complete it faster so you don't have angry posts complaining something takes 50 minutes to do when it can be beaten in 5 minutes.

That's exactly the "mentality" point that the other posters on this thread were discussing.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

Actually, I would say based on the three roles they defined, it seems Anet are supporting the "I'm a casual player, but I'm going to get buffs that are going to help me succeed in instanced content" mentality ... because that's what healing, Quickness and Alacrity roles actually DO for players. PARTICULARLY at the lower end of the performance range.

Another way of thinking about it ... speed runners don't actually benefit from Anet creating these roles and sharing them to other classes because they will run whatever to get the best times down. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

That's exactly the "mentality" point that the other posters on this thread were discussing.

Well if you beat something 250 times already (and some extreme people beat something tens or hundreds of times a week), would you not try to complete it faster even if you are a "casual player"? I understand both takes, if you pay attention to people that speedclear raids some of them have thousands of logs and just one video has maybe hundreds of logs for that kill with no added reward other than bragging rights.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well if you beat something 250 times already (and some extreme people beat something tens or hundreds of times a week), would you not try to complete it faster even if you are a "casual player"? I understand both takes, if you pay attention to people that speedclear raids some of them have thousands of logs and just one video has maybe hundreds of logs for that kill with no added reward other than bragging rights.

Why reward ppl more if your doing it faster that in it self is the reward.

PVE is being balanced way too much for raids and if they move to doing raids as fast as they can for even more rewards is acting like a hand full of ppl have the entire game captive for balancing.

 

Bring the power creeped player not the under used class.

[Infusion.7149]

23 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Why reward ppl more if your doing it faster that in it self is the reward.

PVE is being balanced way too much for raids and if they move to doing raids as fast as they can for even more rewards is acting like a hand full of ppl have the entire game captive for balancing.

 

Bring the power creeped player not the under used class.

If you don't have a reward for doing it better people are apathetic to improving which is why "winning" in WVW is meaningless right now even with the extra ticks in each skirmish. Imagine if rollerbeetle didn't have a time limit for races.

Arenanet should strive for better balance between classes, but that doesn't mean they should not reward people at all for improvement. For example you have under-performing scourges that are regularly outperformed by condi tempests, so it is very much "bring the player not the class". Today I had some masochist play condi weaver but they outdamaged a reaper.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you don't have a reward for doing it better people are apathetic to improving which is why "winning" in WVW is meaningless right now even with the extra ticks in each skirmish. Imagine if rollerbeetle didn't have a time limit for races.

Arenanet should strive for better balance between classes, but that doesn't mean they should not reward people at all for improvement. For example you have under-performing scourges that are regularly outperformed by condi tempests, so it is very much "bring the player not the class". Today I had some masochist play condi weaver but they outdamaged a reaper.

Wining a fight is wining in wvw! Its the mark of ppl jumping into wvw for the pve rewards vs for the wvw content. It should be the same for raids spvp etc.. a stander set of rewards for doing consent is good but doing it in a max min way to be rewarded even more is bad.

Raids have taken over pve balancing for some time (sadly it carry over to wvw/spvp balancing) but if it goes to the speed run being the main balancing of raids it will make things FAR worst for every one.

Bring the speed runner not the weak class.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jski.6180

[Zacchary.6183]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:40 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

On that note, Thief loses their main mechanic (Blindness) in PvE encounters due to breakbars. They need a trait that gives allies Aegis (simulating the effect) when they blind a Defiant foe.

Idea: Blindness disables outgoing control effects but keeps the damage. That way it doesn't negate the functionality of breakbars.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Zacchary.6183

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Wining a fight is wining in wvw! Its the mark of ppl jumping into wvw for the pve rewards vs for the wvw content. It should be the same for raids spvp etc.. a stander set of rewards for doing consent is good but doing it in a max min way to be rewarded even more is bad.

Raids have taken over pve balancing for some time (sadly it carry over to wvw/spvp balancing) but if it goes to the speed run being the main balancing of raids it will make things FAR worst for every one.

Bring the speed runner not the weak class.

Except contrary to what you're saying thief is more often run in speedclears than in normal groups.

Normally it's used as pylon kite on QtP and there is not much demand for it elsewhere.

[aymnad.9023]

17 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The problem is that ArenaNet is supporting the speed run mentality. For instance, the current Strike Missions give bonus loot when you finish faster; I have a feeling that this will also be the case for EoD's Strikes.

The problem is not Anet adding a timer but how you and other seem to perceive the timer. Strikes missions are meant to be a step into raiding. The timer is ULTRA GENEROUS (and meant to be). You ignore it all the time.

In a raid the timer has a meaning because it will most likely mean a wipe. The timer in strikes is meant as a way to reward the improvements you and your (training) squad will make learning rotations and mechanics over multiple sessions. This is to prepare you for what a raid will ask because the requirements are higher.

I can guarantee you that none of the squads I have seen, even those with kp / li requirement, care about getting gold everywhere.

Edited February 21, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Except contrary to what you're saying thief is more often run in speedclears than in normal groups.

Normally it's used as pylon kite on QtP and there is not much demand for it elsewhere.

That has nothing to do with what i am saying. If any thing it means thf may get nerfed because of that! That the problem about balancing to a very small population of an game for all of the game you start getting odd ball nerfs and buffs for things that normal players do not use and cause a lot of problems though out the game.

 

Bring the apologist player not the imaginative class.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

The problem is not Anet adding a timer but how you and other seem to perceive the timer. Strikes missions are meant to be a step into raiding. The timer is ULTRA GENEROUS (and meant to be). You ignore it all the time.

In a raid the timer has a meaning because it will most likely mean a wipe. The timer in strikes is meant as a way to reward the improvements you and your (training) squad will make learning rotations and mechanics over multiple sessions. This is to prepare you for what a raid will ask because the requirements are higher.

I can guarantee you that none of the squads I have seen, even those with kp / li requirement, care about getting gold everywhere.

This was their original reason for making Strikes, but its since been abandoned. In the next expo, Strikes are to be more a merger of all instances: Story, dungeons, Fractals, raids, Strikes and DRMs, into a generic template for re-usable content that takes less time to develop and deploy with less problems overall.

 

Raids (and Strikes initially being designed as a tutorial for them) are no longer relevant. Hopefully enrage timers will disappear to, or only appear on hardcore mode which is fair.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Arewn.2368]

If they made everything 10man, it would just encourage class stacking the best DPS instead.

Atleast mirror comps have some variety.

[aymnad.9023]

17 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

This was their original reason for making Strikes, but its since been abandoned. In the next expo, Strikes are to be more a merger of all instances: Story, dungeons, Fractals, raids, Strikes and DRMs, into a generic template for re-usable content that takes less time to develop and deploy with less problems overall.

 

Raids (and Strikes initially being designed as a tutorial for them) are no longer relevant. Hopefully enrage timers will disappear to, or only appear on hardcore mode which is fair.

I do not understand what seems to be the concern with the future strikes.  It is still relevant and they never said once that they will change their goal.

In fact they used the title “Accessible Endgame” with the following quote :
 

Quote

 

Normal difficulty Strike Missions are intended to be an entry point into the world of 10-player content in Guild Wars 2. 

....

These encounters will introduce you to the mechanics you’ll need to learn and master in order to continue your journey, in an environment that doesn’t demand perfection but still pushes you to learn and grow your combat capabilities.

 

(from Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Strike Missions | GuildWars2.com)

 

Even on a more recent post :

Quote

 we’re looking to grow the Strike Mission audience and encourage as many players as possible to give them a try.

....

With this wider target audience, we’ve tuned the base difficulty of each Strike Mission to make knowledge and mastery over the encounter’s mechanics the most important factors in achieving success.

Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Strike Missions, Balance, and Rewards | GuildWars2.com

Only cms are supposed to be raid level which could mean anything from Kc to Dhuum.

Edited February 22, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 hours ago, Arewn.2368 said:

If they made everything 10man, it would just encourage class stacking the best DPS instead.

Atleast mirror comps have some variety.

There is no best DPS.  All of the bosses have different behaviors and abilities, which each require different things.  Aside from that, the variance in DPS between professions is far, far less than the variance of whether a group has quickness or not.

[Nimon.7840]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:55 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Bring the player (with eod) not the profession i think is the better line anet is selling. If your class dose not already have quickness or alacrity your out in the cold with out eod. Or if you enjoyed the other classes with out quickness or alacrity agen your left out of the meta anet is building with players that think like they do.

 

I don't fully agree on that.

Alac and quickness aren't the only boons you want in a raid.

You want Regen, might, fury and protection as well. On some encounters it's really good to have swiftness... And so on.

 

Even after the nerfs druid will still be able to keep up fury might and swiftness for the group as well as applying a pretty good protection uptime. (On top of bringing 10 man spirits)

 

And that's just one example.

But yes I totally agree that some classes just need a hard change. Especially firebrand. As long as firebrand exists in its current form, no group will ever use a different quickness source. (Well, maybe on power bosses)