DO NOT nerf Dragon's End meta.

[Necrosian.1359]

7 minutes ago, Vixo.7912 said:

This one SHOULD be hard tho, its END game meta, if want an easy one choose AB and get your fun.
so far this meta isn't even hard if people understood when to CC and how to dodge. 

And what if AI decides to spam tails? Or just switch sides constantly? Why do people expect raid level coordination from OPEN WORLD meta? People casual will never "GIT GUD", the meta will be impossible when most above casual people get the tortoise and quit.

[Nezekan.2671]

This data is a bit diluted, because it only counts for people who have registered their API on GW2 efficiency, however less than 1.5% of accounts there have the Dragon's End meta achievement on GW2 efficiency.

[Yitsul.8342]

I just got out of a failed meta where Soo-Won was at 5% HP left Either more time or less HP will suffice

[MichalAniol.5807]

The killing factor for me is that you have to do 2hr pre-meta just to fail most of the time. I have life you know? And many others do too. Don't get me wrong, I want challanging content in open world too, but this is just riddiculous.

Tutrle is not worth to me 2hrs of my life every time and I saw people claiming they tried it 48 times (!) that is 96 hrs of REAL LIFE spend on this meta. WITHOUT REWARD.

[Okhu.7948]

If you're doing more damage you force more transitions before it can lift its tail or lunge. That being said if they tied the tail raising to the CC that has no negative repercussions for failing it outside of not getting that extra DPS. That would probably fix the meta.

[VPK.1796]

Sick of this meta already.

[elpuellodiablo.9361]

This meta is a complete mess and a pile of garbage. Hope they fix it soon as in its current state it's just infuriating, and not worth even trying.

[Mark.2068]

Not fixed yet?

ANOTHER DAY WITHOUT PLAYING GW2

[Sora.3159]

Tonight a few of us from the same guild were helping a friend through story and we got to Dragon's end just as the meta was about to start. We told them about the achievement you can get for doing the meta before going into The Only One story and so they decided to try it.

 

We had a full map squad with a commander who was actually leading very well, making all the call outs in both say and map chat. We had an Anet personal amongst the group who was also calling out to help folks know what they're supposed to do at certain phases during the big fight. We were doing EXTREMELY well, the boss HP was down to around 40% when our group realized we still had about 14 minutes left and we believed this would actually be a passing meta map.

 

That was until the boss HP got to around 20-30% range and the RNG hit us with constant movement. The boss would just NOT stop moving back and forth and of course it's super hard to hit them while they are moving. We ended up failing.

 

The RNG in this meta NEEDS to be reworked/nerfed.

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

But alright, assume for the moment that I did not understand you and we will go with this new explanation of what timers are. Question: What is "sensible" and who gets to decide what is a sensible time to beat the meta? If you say "the devs", then there is no issue then. If you say "the players", then which player or players and why those particular players?

The reason I'm calling the previous and very much this comment a strawman is because you just wanna shuffle around blame, paint me as naive and deflect.

The point I'm making has nothing to do with the precise duration, technical limitations or anything of the sorts. 
I am asking why ANet pushes timers that are actual hard limits that players run into.

The boss fights are all designed around the timer getting somewhat close in regular play. Double the timer and it's gonna have a near 100% success rate. It getting close is a deliberate choice by ANet. And I wonder why metas must be designed as such a DPS race against time (DPS in this case meaning both literal DPS and doing mechanics to get back into DPS phases)

If learning mechanics, learning dodging, etc. is intended. Why not, for example, design a meta around having to survive rather than dealing enough damage within a certain timer? Why not get rid of all DPS requirements and focus it around the volume of combo finisher attacks? 

There is other ways to create challenge without DPS checks and tight timers. 

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

Yes, I do understand how much time and investment that is. But if you're not willing to devote time and effort to learn all these and do all these, then you're not going to get your rewards for those events that require that much time and investment (e.g. legendary armor).

I agree with that. Lock legendary armor, armor skins, convenience items, etc. behind difficult content. But then why is the turtle locked behind such content?

And why on earth is it placed in the open world with no option to open a private instance like Dragonstorm? There's even story instance entry points located in DE. Achievements for fishing, the only place to farm pure jade which is not at all on route of the event at all.

The map design is extremely confused whether it wants to be open world or force everyone on the map to coordinate. Dragon's Stand, the only comparable meta we have so far, is intentionally designed around only being played as meta. It only makes sense to play when it starts and even entering for the first time is deliberately timed to happen right before it starts. It is actually pushing that kind of group play. 

DE combines some of the worst properties. 1 hour of preparation, 40 minutes of pre events for 20 minutes where it has a high chance of failing. With lots of reasons to do something else on the map and no option to self select. 

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

I do accept how you enjoy the game. Whatever you do which is fun for you is absolutely fine with me. I am sure it is also fine with Anet. But as you said, if you want to play as well as you can without any further training, then you will get your small rewards and progress. However, the DE meta is not a "small reward". It's BIG reward.

Again. Turtle. That is not an optional reward. It's a heavily promoted headline feature of the expansion. If there was a secondary collection to more slowly but consistently grind towards it then it would be much less of an issue. Even though the map is still confused in what it wants to be. 

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

I understand that it can not be fun for plenty of people and I know that mechanics can be daunting, but what would you consider "tiny, tiny steps"? What would be the process that you want Anet to do? Do you want a tutorial on which skills are your CC skills?

How about actual feedback about how one is doing? That would be neat. I'm seeing hundreds of numbers flying out of the enemy on my condi build. What's the DPS? What boon uptime do I have? Am I better or worse than during the last attempt?

I have absolutely no idea how much breakbar damage I'm doing, regularly don't have the right enemy selected. With attack markers changing all the time, it becoming untargetable and my selection switching to a random enemy or player. Hitboxes that have absolutely nothing to do with the visuals. It's weirder and harder than most raid bosses. And therefore I literally can't see when breakbar comes up and not react within seconds. Monitor is big so just looking between my skill bar and the boss bar at the top is a lot of distance all the while I should be looking at the middle of the screen. On that note, don't leave mechanics to only be discovered when hovering over a tiny icon mid fight.

Not in open world metas. The fewer people, the more direct I can learn and get feedback. The more people, the less you can possibly learn. 

The challenge is actually fine for the most part but it's arbitrarily obfuscated, hidden or just not communicated at all which also means it can not be expected to be executed consistently in large groups. Which means the challenge needs to be designed around this lack of understanding and feedback. 

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

Ok, so, becoming better in the game is not for you and you don't find it enjoyable. That's fine. That just simply means that you cannot get the siege turtle, just like the legendary armor you mentioned. And you will have to be ok with that.

I find it ok on my terms. Even ran a few raids, thereby being one of the most invested and experienced players in my social group. But not on an average evening. It is stressful. And I really need the right mood and lots of time to enjoy that kind of stress. 

But no. Headline content for an expansion is not optional. You are raising the turtle to be some extremely prestigious mount only the elite should have. Which is absurd. Then it can't be the only two person mount (e.g. I wanna help a f2p friend, showing them around and hopefully converting them), then it can't be advertised on the same level as elite specs. Everything was communicated and framed horribly wrong in that case.

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

So Anet expects you to learn the mechanics. There's no way around it.

Exactly. And I say, kitty them and kitty you for that.

There needs to be base line content to enjoy without it. Unless you are telling me and a majority of players to refund the expansion, then it's just terrible design. Harder content is relevant, neigh, important. But it must be opt in, there must be casual content and the core expansion features must be accessible without opting in. 

Just imagine locking fishing behind a new raid wing. The thought is absurd. 

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

It's not me forcing you to play like me, it's Anet; if you want the turtle that is. And, to be frank, you redefined "caring" to mean "nerf the DE boss because I do not want to learn mechanics of the game and because I do not enjoy learning."

Again. It means making the core content accessible.

If DE Boss is not meant to be accessible, not meant to be core content. Then the map around it, the way the story is portrayed and the turtle reward are all just terrible design. Because everything suggests it's very achievable. Even if someone on the map is just doing story or farming jade. Even if there's near 0 coordination. Even if half the people have terrible builds with new elites they are inexperienced with.

And the reward itself (turtle) was also explicitly communicated to be faster achievable than Griffon / Skyscale. Suggested it'd be easier to get and advertised as key reason to purchase the expansion.

ANet can't have both. Because, at this rate, getting it isn't a triumph. It was pure relief. Relief I'll never have to do it again.

Also, on that note. Success didn't have anything to do with skill. Beat it with 4 minutes to spare. We got 4 CC bars, one early in the last phase. Which burned HP drastically faster than any of my previous 12 attempts. Those usually had 1 or 2 and none in the last phase. Or CC bar and tail simultaneously. More tails in general and more side swaps. If the meta was focused on skill and challenge then this layer of RNG needs to be removed. Just one more point in the list of confused design about what the map attempts to be. RNG of this kind, that actually has impact on success can not be tied to a tight timer and challenging content. If everyone is working together right it can not result in failure while other, significantly worse groups, succeed. The one I did it with wasn't even in the top 5 of best organized or fastest reacting. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[DylanLucas.6058]

And not a single soul working at ArenaNet bothered to give us some form of response.....

Is that the long term plan they have in their head?

[Zychuu.7294]

For me personally theere is no problem with aiming for high difficulty, the RNG factor is what makes it FEEL unfair. Just let people know that it is THEM who suck, not the fact that they were unlucky enough to get only 1 breakbar phase which got interrupted by some attack animation or transition anyway or whatever.

 

Less RNG -> more space for player skill to actually start to matter. The meta isn't necessarily too hard. It's just way too RNG.

[Minjin.8259]

8 minutes ago, DylanLucas.6058 said:

And not a single soul working at ArenaNet bothered to give us some form of response.....

Is that the long term plan they have in their head?

They said in another thread they were going to monitor it over the weekend and decide based on how many clears there were.

[Necrosian.1359]

kitten THIS META! Got the egg, now it's dead to me. Rewards are trash too.

Rngesus smiled at us and gave few tails and switches.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Necrosian.1359

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

8 hours ago, Melech.4308 said:

I wasn't talking about open world content in this context. I said "if someone joined an experienced raid group, on the role they can play, who showed KP, and they failed the mechanics a certain number of times...". Just from what I said, it is very clear I wasn't talking about open world content, but I was talking about raids. 

And if THAT wasn't enough, take a look at what I mentioned the options of the commnader had when someone failed a mechanic a certain number of times:
 

"Kick the person who failed the mechanic

OR

Call off the raid"

Take a look at the latter option: "Call off the raid". When did I say that open world content were raids?

Then you have no actual argument here. We're not talking about a Raid group, this is an OPEN WORLD content discussion.

You really went and pushed that Elitism mentality when you're not even on the same page as everyone else? Way to prove my point

Edited March 6, 2022 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[Sardeth Wynn.9548]

Gone there 6 times after slowly enjoying the new content, I really like the story, that meta tho?
I mean seriously getting a possible egg for a Turtle after that fight makes no sense to me, makes about as much sense as salvaging Sushi for research papers, shrugs, cause Science I guess?
I will not be getting this mount as is and my major irk is "I am dependent on others to get it." I dont mind failing over and over if it's my fault, but when I am in a situation where I got to depend on 59 others just to hear Aurene say, "We lost." after all that slog starts to make me hate the map and hate the people on it I mean had it down to 2%.
Take that turtle and rub it on the Dev that came up with this idea's chest,
I am good with the 250 gold Griffon,
the time locked Skyscale,
the Beat the Baddy and feed them to a dragon to get a Rollerbeatle.
Shame though, since it was a major marketing point for this Expansion.

[Melech.4308]

19 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Then you have no actual argument here. We're not talking about a Raid group, this is an OPEN WORLD content discussion.

You really went and pushed that Elitism mentality when you're not even on the same page as everyone else? Way to prove my point

So you took out of context what I was saying and you applied it to mean that I was implying open world when I did not.

Let me bring up the actual post I made and your comment:

This is what I said and your emphasis on what I said in bold and in italics even:

I don't think it killed raids at all. I raid every week and as long as you can show KP and do the mechanics in raids it's fine. We all want to succeed but if one person can't do the mechanics then of course the com will kick them out of the raids.

And then you comment on that was:

On 3/5/2022 at 3:55 AM, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

And that right there is the very definition of Elitism

It is very clear that I was talking about raids; the first sentence itself says it. "I don't think it killed raids at all". The second sentence even has a qualifier that says "...kick them out of the raids". 

 

[yourexcellency.1458]

4 hours ago, Vixo.7912 said:

This one SHOULD be hard tho, its END game meta, if want an easy one choose AB and get your fun.
so far this meta isn't even hard if people understood when to CC and how to dodge. 

I'm fine if it's hard. In fact make it even harder. Go ahead and make it Dhuum CM hard. Just remove the turtle from it. 

[MichalAniol.5807]

4 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said:

I'm fine if it's hard. In fact make it even harder. Go ahead and make it Dhuum CM hard. Just remove the turtle from it. 

And RNG.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

24 minutes ago, Melech.4308 said:

So you took out of context what I was saying and you applied it to mean that I was implying open world when I did not.

Let me bring up the actual post I made and your comment:

This is what I said and your emphasis on what I said in bold and in italics even:

I don't think it killed raids at all. I raid every week and as long as you can show KP and do the mechanics in raids it's fine. We all want to succeed but if one person can't do the mechanics then of course the com will kick them out of the raids.

And then you comment on that was:

It is very clear that I was talking about raids; the first sentence itself says it. "I don't think it killed raids at all". The second sentence even has a qualifier that says "...kick them out of the raids". 

 

I literally pointed out elitism because that's exactly what you've showcased. That was that at first.

Then you replied more about Raiding despite the topic being about an Open World Meta, so to stay within the topic of the actual thread, I asked you to apply what you keep preaching to an Open World Meta Event setting which you didn't. I'm following through the topic here, you're not. 

This conversation is literally about why an Open World Meta-Event was badly designed for the intended audience, which in this case, is not the raiding groups, but the random people of different skill sets in a map that they have no control over on who goes in and who goes out. I'm simply sticking to the topic at hand here

 

[Melech.4308]

2 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I literally pointed out elitism because that's exactly what you've showcased. That was that at first.

Okay, so you pointed out elitism. We will come back to this.
 

2 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I'm following through the topic here, you're not. 

This conversation is literally about why an Open World Meta-Event was badly designed for the intended audience, which in this case, is not the raiding groups, but the random people of different skill sets in a map that they have no control over on who goes in and who goes out. I'm simply sticking to the topic at hand here

Wrong! It was only you who claimed that the topic of the actual thread is about an Open World Meta which was badly designed for the intended audience. The topic, which is the very first post by the author, is this:

On 3/2/2022 at 6:30 AM, Blackari.2051 said:

Please Anet for the love of whatever you worship, do not nerf this fight. Finaly there is a boss fight in open world where just spamming #1 is not enough.
Do not listen to cry babies just because finally they have to somewhat pay attention to what is happening. If you really have to do something maybe add an extra minute on timer to the boss fight but not too much...

THIS is the topic:

The author pleading with Anet to not nerf the fight and that auto attacks aren't enough, people have to pay attention to what's happening, and if they do nerf the fight, only add an extra minute to the timer on the boss fight.

When you asked me to "stay within the topic of the actual thread", you were not asking me to actually stay on topic, you wanted to shift the discussion to what you wanted it to be under the guise of "staying on topic".

 

And if you insist that I still went off-topic, then I can also say that you also went off-topic:

Your reply on elitism is off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Your reply on Dragon's Stand and Tangled Depths is off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Your reply on the patch notes is off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Your reply on asking me how "elitism" applies to open world content is off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Your reply on alleging that I have no actual argument and how we were not talking about raids is off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Any reply that you make regarding this reply is also off-topic because it doesn't agree, disagree, or discuss the OP's plea to Anet.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Melech.4308

[qrevolution.5867]

9 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I wonder if needing this event to get the siege turtle actually leads relatively casual players to participate, thereby diluting the DPS of the group as a whole?  Don't get me wrong, I AM one of those relatively casual players, but I'm going to stay well clear of this event because I don't want to be "that guy" who does something wrong and flushes two hours of work by each of 49 players down the toilet.  It just seems odd that you try to drive your casual players into an events where we will only frustrate the players that are up to this level of content.

I promise, once I finally get the siege turtle unlocked, I'm never doing this meta again.

 

I don't even know what the other rewards are, but I've opened enough chests in this game to know it won't be anything close to rewarding enough to account for all the time I've spent in failing maps.

[eyelogix.1654]

The RNG has to be nerfed running like a headless chicken back and forth isn't fun especially when you are down to the last 5% when time is of the essence.

[Kromie.8930]

I AGREE.  CHALLENGING OPEN WORLD CONTENT IS GREAT FOR EVERYONE EVEN CASUALS. GET IN ORGANIZE GROUPS. THIS IS A MMO.  LOOK HOW POPULAR IT IS IN LFG. SO WHAT YOU CANT FARM IT IN THE FIRST WEEK OF XPAC . WHEN IT GETS FIGURED OUT IT WILL BE EASY ENOUGH FOR EVERY TO DO BLINDFOLDED. 

PEOPLE WILL CRY THERES NO CHALLENGING CONTENT THEN!

[yann.1946]

16 minutes ago, eyelogix.1654 said:

The RNG has to be nerfed running like a headless chicken back and forth isn't fun especially when you are down to the last 5% when time is of the essence.

This I agree with, it feels really annoying if you are supposed to get the kill and it gets stolen. (a better word would be feel like)