Should Open World Meta Event be Challenging?

[Cranberry.5849]

Hello Tyrians! As the topic mention: Should open world meta event be challenging? I have created this post because Arenanet have design the new Dragons End Map to be challenging as quoted by them.

 

"To accomplish this, we challenged our own conventions for creating open world content to provide an encounter unlike anything ever seen before in Guild Wars 2. As such, the encounter was designed from the start to be challenging, but progressively more doable as players learn mechanics and how to handle phase transitions."

 

Personally, I feel that an OPEN WORLD Meta event should be easy and accessible for any kind of players. This is not to say that it should not be fun and interactive.

 

Take Octovine for example, the mechanics of the Octovine is to go on different pathways [North, South, East, West] and each pathway have different mechanics involve. Some players are required to CC the pods, some glides and bomb the octovine etc...). And ultimately we have to kill the boss at the same time. This takes coordination and understanding of the mechanics in order to clear the meta.

 

However the new Dragons End Map not only requires people to understand the mechanics but also requires them to meet the DPS check because of the timer. I have gone on many runs whereby most of the players are able to dodge Suwon Tail/ Waves, Break CC, Kill the Tail. Mechanic wise, we did everything right but still unable to clear it just because we do not have enough DPS.

 

Reasons of why I think OPEN WORLD meta should be Easy and Accessible:

 

1) You are unable to control the players that you are playing with in an Open World. In Strikes or Fractals, if a player does not meet up the requirements for the challenge we can simply kick them but you cannot kick players off the map. 

 

2) Open World Meta takes too long. Unlike instance content, If you wipe and fail, you can immediately attempt it again. However you need to wait another 2 hours of pre event before attempting the Dragons End Meta again.

 

3) Replayability of the Meta. Lets be honest, the only reason that most players are doing the meta is because that it is new and for the turtles. Few years down the line, once most players have obtain the turtles and new maps are made, do you think players will risk spending 2 hours to play the meta and end up not clearing it for being too challenging? That is why DS, Octo and Drizzlewood are popular because it is accessible and rewarding.

 

4) Toxicity in the Community. Players are now gatekeeping other players from joining a squad for the Meta. Some squads asking for KP from raids before allowing players to join. Some even willing to pay players gold for them to leave the map. Is this the type of community we want to build?

 

Finally, I am not saying that Arenanet should not do any challenging content but please keep it in an instance base mode like Strikes or Fractals. If you still persist on doing challenging meta event than you might want to do one that allows the player to create their own private instance like Dragonstorm but please dont lock a turtle behind it =3.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Cranberry.5849

[Slowpokeking.8720]

No, because

1. you can't pick your team, can't kick afkers out.

2. If you fail there is no quick retry, you have to wait for hours and get into a different team.

 

Whether you win or fail has little to do with your own skill, but your luck to get into a team.

[Felipe.1807]

10 minutes ago, Cranberry.5849 said:

Toxicity in the Community. Players are now gatekeeping other players from joining a squad for the Meta. Some squads asking for KP from raids before allowing players to join. Some even willing to pay players gold for them to leave the map. Is this the type of community we want to build?

Yikes...the sad part is that I dont even doubt that this is actually a thing...havent even reached the last map, somewhat far from it, but just reading stuff like this demotivate me so badly lol

[ugrakarma.9416]

The problem ins't a challenge itself.

1. But metas generally are designed to be longer. Can't hold a player, specially casual  player, in 2hr strict raid attention requiriment. afk'ers willl be unavoidable. but punish afkers? ins't solution, it would make it even worse(i myself inst more in age to play 2hrs without stop to drinking water).

Even if it "work", the playerbase will burn out and give up, the replayability of map will be lost.

2. Mount's attract a too much childish playerbase(without offense), again, the problem itself, ins't  the ppl who like "ride on pet" which normally a less 10yr ppl fixation, but if u lock it behind a "complex" content, u will get a lot of hate, because u are removing the candy from child hand. These guys don't care about "numbers" and all that nerdness of dps meters. U are mixing oil and water in same place.

3. Beware when heard vocal minority. It happened before and is happening again.

4. Don't mix timegates with mechanically complex bosses. this another recipe for disaster. this smell the freaking DRM's.

5. Casual is the backbone of the community, they don't care about DPS metrics, but almost with Fashion and relax, Fashion means gems.  When u give the vocal minority all they want, the pinacle of their goals is a LFG selling kill's for gold.

Edited March 5, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Caitybee.3614]

Yes some should present a challenge, but not at the expense of player's insanity.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

9 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

The problem ins't a challenge itself.

 

1. But metas generally are designed to be longer. Can't hold a player, specially casual  player, in 2hr strict raid attention requiriment. afk'ers willl be unavoidable. punish afkers, inst solution, it would make it even worse.

Even if it "work", the playerbase will burn out and give up, the replayability of map will be lost.

2. Mount's attract a too much childsh playerbase(without offense), again, the proble itself, ins't  the ppl who like "ride on pet" which normally a less 10yr ppl fixation, but if u lock it behind a "complex" content, u will get a lot of hate. These guys don't care about "numbers" and all that nerdness of dps meters. U are mixing oil and water.

3. Beware when heard vocal minority. It happened before and is happening again.

4. Don't mix timegates with mechanically complex bosses. this another recipe for disaster. 

5. Casual is the backbone of the community, they don't care about DPS metrics, but almost with Fashion and relax, Fashion means gems.  When u give the vocal minority all they want, the pinacle of their goals is a LFG selling kills for gold.

It is, open world meta doesn't fit hc challenge.

 

TD was also very toxic before the nerf.

[White Dragon.5429]

Yes, metas should be challenging.   The real question is challenging to whom?  What a map full of random average players find very challenging will be a cake walk to an oversized raid group.   Open World content should be,  above all else,  accessible.  The challenge should therefore be balanced around a group of 40 random people. 

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

It should be casual. It should always be casual. Open world content should always cater to the casual player base. Sure make it a bit harder than normal, but not anything that people can't complete without a coordinated raid team.

This isn't just for GW2, this goes for all MMOs. Your casual player base should be able to handle all open world content. They are the players that are just good enough to enjoy the game and play it for fun, not min/max to be the best around and take on the most challenging content. They just want to chill and play. So open world content should always be accessible to them without too much of a high difficulty.

If you want a challenge, that is what Fractals, Raids, Strike Missions, even PvP are for. Put that hard content in those. That's why you have them! Get those organized teams who min/max everything and need that challenge into those. That is the whole purpose of that content. To give hardcore players a challenge. Stop trying to push that content into the open world. It isn't designed for that.

Keep the proper content where it belongs. Stop trying to mix them together.

[Einsof.1457]

yes

[koxsos.6258]

Well, challenging is incredibly relative term.

Should you sleep on your rotation and just autoattack? Probably not.

Should you form elitist groups and check for 1000 LI? Probably not either.

 

I suppose there is a trick to it we are still missing.
New tequatl used to be impossible before people could be bothered to split up properly and to use turrets.

Dragon's Stand and most of HoT metas were not a 100% success rate either early on.

 

The mystery of Dragon's end still eludes me.

Could it be that breaking massive whirpool  defiance bar instakills boss? Unlikely. Will I ever know? I don't think so, given that EMPing around it for days has done less than 10% progress on it.

For now it would seem that timer on the dps check is extremely demanding, especially given that players want to "have fun" and "experience the new mechanics their classes have to offer", but once people stop dying all the time and applying dps instead, success rates might increase, if ever so slightly.
 

It would seem the map team does everything mechanically "right" within less than forgiving margins of error, you break boss CC, kill the tail, don't die too much, respawn asap, sync miniboss kills, jump up the temple tower in the green prism minigame and because you are such a good team you get to reach 20% at 1 minute left and you can call it.

Maybe we are just too slow on fireteams getting into position? Do the two relate? How much?

 

My wish is to have anet pat itself on the back over challenging content a little bit less and improving the client stability when partaking in such content instead. Crashes when things are looking up are still common place.

[Nate.8146]

We have open world, dungeons, fractals, strikes, and raids. Each of them have their own difficulties and requirements. IMO, open world should be accessible to everyone. Does that mean open world enemies/events/encounters must be brain dead easy? No. It means they must be achievable, and there's a difference. Dragon's End meta is an event that could be achievable if players had more time to do it. The problem is that there is no time. It's a group comp, gear, and DPS rotation check. It's pushing open world content more into the realm of dungeons/strikes/fractal/raids, and it shouldn't because that's exactly why those ancillary modes exist.

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

Dragon stand is challenging, the Dragon Stand can be done by casuals, Fred the guy who trolls, does not ruin the Meta event in Dragon Stand. ... Dragons End should not be any more or less challenging than Dragon Stand.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Open World Meta's can be hard, that's not the problem in this case.

The problem is there is hardly any room for error... meaning that a few new to the map, a few casual players... can doom the map... Not because they want to, but because they cannot invest or don't want to invest tons of times to "git gud" 

This is an Open World Map meta... there should be room for error... there should be a calculated margin considering afkers, casual players and new to the map players...

It is extremely and utterly frustrating... trying a meta and seeing it fail time after time again... basically reset back to preperation... the entire thing cost 2 hours easely... some people only have 2 hours TOTAL a day to play a game... you want to confront those players with 10 fails? 

The current difficulty and precision needed also means that people will inevitably burn out on it... I already am before I even had 1 succes... at this stage that means the second I get lucky (unfortunately that is exactly what is needed: getting lucky) I am out... likely permanently.

They marketed heavy on the Turtle... and how it was less hard and less time than Skyscale and Beetle... and I have to conclude, by hiding it behind such a massively hard meta means, they were dishonest about it.

I fully understand some people want harder content, but this is not for Open World. 

I do understand that ArenaNet wanted to make it feel epic, but honestly... the prep, the escort... are bleh... I cannot enjoy them... and once the boss fight starts... I do not take in the effort that went into making the meta... I am only fixated on the timer... constantly judging and calculating how it is going.

This is not fun... This is overly designed and then putting that mount behind it (together with other, seemingly not related achievements) means I am extremely and utterly dissapointed in the Expac... despite enjoying the beauty of the maps, despite the good story (in my oppinion) despite all that...

I am starting to feel a dislike towards EoD... not even 1 week in.

[aeris.5846]

My 2 cents. I did 4 meta. I kill 2. 50% win rate.

The 2 fails are in completly random pug. Nobody give a kitten about chat.

On the 2 kills, no real coordination but barely 10 ppl out of 50 on a discord, no very complicated squad comp or other boons check. Just basic sub split with evenly distributed specialization (barely guard/alac on each sub, don't know if real hfb or alac or quick or whatever), quick explanation, some calls during the fight, 10 sub assignemnt for east/mid/west/head/tail.

I ask for kp/kpme, but no real check at all, basically just to have brain ppl and no headless chicken. I guess we carry 5-10 ppl on those squads. And hidden tag to clean the map of troll.
I bet this is reproducible. Just casual ppl need hard core gamer now to help on this meta.

Not about "being good", but just ppl able to read the chat, to use build we give and other simple things like that. And that's why openworld ppl are just desesperating…

Edited March 5, 2022 by aeris.5846

[Borked.6824]

Yes.  Because even though I'm casual in my time, I'm not even close to "casual" in my skill.  I don't have time to be a cog in an active guild and by extension I don't have time for raids/strikes.  Playing next to clickers and keyboard turners is honestly a bit insulting to me, but it's the circumstances I have to deal with.  If I don't get some sort of challenging fulfillment in the few avenues I have (basically, open world), I'll burn out and leave.  People like me need the challenge.  

Edit:  The question to answer is how do we get people to accept having content going uncleared for days a a time.  Someone like me are totally fine taking a stab or 2 at a boss and fail every day.  I know I'll kill it in good time.  I kitten spent something like a full month wiping hundreds of times on heroic Anubarak in WoW before we got server first.  This is nothing to me.  But it seems like literally EVERYONE else can't stomach that idea.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Borked.6824

[LucianDK.8615]

6 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Yes.  Because even though I'm casual in my time, I'm not even close to "casual" in my skill.  I don't have time to be a cog in an active guild and by extension I don't have time for raids/strikes.  Playing next to clickers and keyboard turners is honestly a bit insulting to me, but it's the circumstances I have to deal with.  If I don't get some sort of challenging fulfillment in the few avenues I have (basically, open world), I'll burn out and leave.  People like me need the challenge.  

Then you are trying the wrong content, its not meant for your skill level.

[Ultramex.1506]

Yes, but from what i have read, it should not be ruin by afks and trolls

Edit: also RNG

Edited March 6, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[LucianDK.8615]

Just now, Ultramex.1506 said:

Yes, but from what i have read, it should not be ruin by afks and trolls

trolls cant ruin it more as greens is no longer able to be cheesed.

[Orimidu.9604]

Played this meta a few times now. Some short thoughts:

1. The smaller events are meant to "teach" how the bigger events work. That's ok and all, but for example the prismatic crystals event that occurs between the saltspray champions and the colored crystals event just before the tower is not necessary. Players learn how the colored crystal event works through map preparation events. If this was cut out it would probably save about 10 minutes.

2. The Soo-Won fight itself is too reliant on rng. The boss doesn't allow much room for burn phases which are a necessity. When the breakbar comes up it never fails, but the breakbar rarely comes up as Soo-Won seems to choose the mouth attack too often, and running to the opposite side of the platform takes too long for a lot of players. In fact, I'd say roughly 1/6 of players will make it to the opposite end of the platform just in time for Soo-Won to do another mouth attack.

I believe a relatively easy and rewarding coding fix would be to add bonus time to the Soo-Won fight based on how quickly previous stages of the meta are completed.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Orimidu.9604

[kettering.6823]

22 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Edit:  The question to answer is how do we get people to accept having content going uncleared for days a a time.  Someone like me are totally fine taking a stab or 2 at a boss and fail every day.  I know I'll kill it in good time.  I kitten spent something like a full month wiping hundreds of times on heroic Anubarak in WoW before we got server first.  This is nothing to me.  But it seems like literally EVERYONE else can't stomach that idea.

I agree with all of this. I really don't understand why everyone seems to need to finish and unlock all content within the very first week of release. It's out, it's released, it's not going anywhere... just have a little bit of patience, and if you're frustrated, do something else for a little bit. 

That being said RNG should have no place in a large scale meta like this. It can definitely use some tweaks. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by kettering.6823

[LucianDK.8615]

Tailbeatings should shave off some of her health

[LucianDK.8615]

2 minutes ago, kettering.6823 said:

I agree with all of this. I really don't understand why everyone seems to need to finish and unlock all content within the very first week of release. It's out, it's released, it's not going anywhere... just have a little bit of patience, and if you're frustrated, do something else for a little bit. 

People are having quite a bad time due to rng tactics of the boss. There is nothing skill can do about it, if she serves you a lot of bad abilities in a row. And leaving you with the time wasted for such a long meta. Its all too clear why people have fits about the meta.

Edited March 6, 2022 by LucianDK.8615

[Sevens.9452]

i figured it out, the meta isn't challenging, it's people aren't good enough

 

[kettering.6823]

1 minute ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

People are having quite a bad time due to rng tactics of the boss. There is nothing skill can do about it, if she serves you a lot of bad abilities in a row.

Yes I just edited my post to add that I think the RNG should go. It was just a general sentiment I've had reading the forums today seeing people upset that they aren't able to mainline all the content in the expac within a week. It's not even just GW2 though; this seems to be a trend among people in general these days. 

[aeris.5846]

For me RNG is not THE trouble. It doesn't help but it's not the failing spot.

Don't forget we are just day 6.

From my point of view, this will be a meta like triple trouble once the community start planning more this event. You just need (really) coordinated people, with a discord even if half the squad not on it, with some roles filled by veteran with specific build (like blocker/condi husk in TT) to provide alac/quick/might/heal on each sub, with people reading the chat and following com order.

Currently it's more like random people joining random squad and it can't work like this, it will just fail. Like TT can't be killed like that and nobody ask for a nerf for TT (and it loot more less than dragon).
When joining this meta for fun, I barely see no com creating 10 subs before the start to assign people on each lane (east/west, then head/tail, then east/west, then east/west/south), placing supply depot for EMP & cc or things like that or just checking everybody read the chat befor the start.