ANET lost their way with Dragon's End META

[Knighthonor.4061]

I like challenging meta events. This event has poor mechanics that make it harder artificially.  The RNG shouldn't be a factor on the difficulty level,  but it is here. 

[Jokubas.4265]

This point is one of the reasons the rudeness I experienced during the event from other players really bothered me. It's bad enough that they're being rude. What really gets me is that, for some reason, the instinct is to blame the players instead of the design. If the open world content can not be completed with open world players, then it's not the players that are "bad", but the design that has failed.
 

I see that sort of thinking far too often. That only the players can be a problem. It can never be that the situation itself that is flawed. I've seen people be blamed for not being good enough at things when they only failed due to a power outage literally turning their game off. Don't get mad at the players, just give feedback!

Last time I posted about the event I wasn't able to give proper feedback (and might have sounded like I was endorsing it more than I was). I think the idea is fine, but the execution definitely needs improvement. The last time I did the meta, it seemed everyone did the mechanics they needed, we didn't get too many tails, everyone did the tail when it was up, and we only failed the Defiance Bar once near the end when it came immediately after a bunch of devastating stuff. We still lost because of the time. I think a lot of timers this expansion are too strict.

Strict timers are especially bad for open world content, because a group can be slow but also resilient. In other words, a strict timer can punish people who are really good, just not good at the one thing that a timer tests. Speed is not the only skill in the world.

[Cegolex.8702]

7 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

Strict timers are especially bad for open world content, because a group can be slow but also resilient. In other words, a strict timer can punish people who are really good, just not good at the one thing that a timer tests. Speed is not the only skill in the world.

Can you elaborate on your measurement on good?

I agree with a lot of people that there should be something done about the boss rng since it can really be bad. But what other measurement of good is there if not time? If you die you can teleport right next to the boss. If you unlock the revive on the jade bot right on the platform and even set a personal waypoint there?

So it doesnt matter if you survive long there since you are up and fighting again in an instant. Every group is resilient under these conditions unless they decide to leave the map.

If they just increase the timer it removes everything difficult from the boss. Because it does not matter what you do because eventually it will die or you will run out of gold for the waypoint cost.

And there is nothing more boring than a meta event where the only way to fail is for everyone to go afk with their autoattack disabled. There is only this amount of people that enjoy being afk with their 1 on autoattack.

[RCancellaro.9623]

My approach to this meta is the same as inumerous other players. Finished once after a few tries, got the turtle, never even got back on the map since. This meta is just poorly designed. RNG should not be a "mechanic", it only increases the frustration. I dont plan on coming back to this meta, as many other players will alao do the same, and over time, the map will be left with a small amount of players and new players wont be able to ever get a turtle

[Erise.5614]

6 hours ago, Cegolex.8702 said:

Can you elaborate on your measurement on good?

I agree with a lot of people that there should be something done about the boss rng since it can really be bad. But what other measurement of good is there if not time? If you die you can teleport right next to the boss. If you unlock the revive on the jade bot right on the platform and even set a personal waypoint there?

So it doesnt matter if you survive long there since you are up and fighting again in an instant. Every group is resilient under these conditions unless they decide to leave the map.

If they just increase the timer it removes everything difficult from the boss. Because it does not matter what you do because eventually it will die or you will run out of gold for the waypoint cost.

And there is nothing more boring than a meta event where the only way to fail is for everyone to go afk with their autoattack disabled. There is only this amount of people that enjoy being afk with their 1 on autoattack.

Remember, that's an active choice by ANet. An open world meta doesn't need to be designed in such a way that it either has a tight timer or can be completed basically afk with a clicker macro. 

Yes, this meta was designed in (almost) such a way. But you can make interesting challenges without tight timers / DPS checks. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Lance Coolee.9480]

14 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

Strict timers are especially bad for open world content, because a group can be slow but also resilient. In other words, a strict timer can punish people who are really good, just not good at the one thing that a timer tests. Speed is not the only skill in the world.

Strict event timers don't only serve as an encounter mechanic but can sometimes be necessary to keep the map moving along. Dry Top, SW, VB, AB, and TD are great examples of maps that need to keep moving players through the Meta timely enough for a scheduled reset.

That said, I think the easiest and most impactful change ANET can make is to increase the timer on this encounter by at least 5 if not even 10 minutes. Much like Dragonstorm, this map is much more tolerable to deviations in completion time because the entire instance is discarded after it completes. Tension won't be largely impacted as there's already enough going on in the fight to keep players on their toes.

[quaniesan.8497]

Couldn't have said it better myself.  Anet's silence is the daunting uncontestable admission of guilt.

[Blaeys.3102]

I’ve failed this fight at least 15 times now, mostly with very competent and organized groups. The rng and griefable design elements have made the last fight nothing more than an exercise in frustration. Yes, more will beat it, but that is primarily due to being lucky with mechanics and the lfg screen.
 

even worse, the fight is further widening the rift between the hardcore raiders and regular players, creating a lot of toxicity in the community right now. That can’t be what anet intended.

 

it’s time to put the turtle behind something else in the game.

[Reknarok.7582]

There’s nothing wrong with wanting more challenging content, and there’s also nothing wrong with not being so great at the game.

The problem here is not that the event is too challenging or that people aren’t good enough, it’s that it is using RNG as a mechanic with no bad luck protection where even organised good groups are losing due to nothing more than RNG running the timer down.

 

 Seriously though, the garbage that is spewing from some people in this thread is mind boggling.

 

” Just get better at the game! But I agree, the RNG is an issue…”

 

”Do what Anet taught you!”

”Anet taught me to stand in green circles.”

”Noooo! Don’t do that!”

 

Cognitive dissonance at it’s finest.

 

Open world content is there for everyone to participate in regardless of skill level, it should not take a single player of below average skill to tank a meta.

Open world content is there to teach those players of below average skill how to do harder instanced content by reading fight patterns, completing mechanics, and working together with other people.

I agree that people shouldn’t be effectively afk and still win, but the argument here is more about accessibility in the most accessible form of content.

Constantly berating people who don’t fit into your paradigm of what you consider to be good does nothing but alienate the people you play with, which makes them quit, which causes the playerbase to shrink, which causes the game to tank. Do you want to know why? It’s because the casual playerbase effectively decide whether an mmo lives or dies, they are the ones who tend to spend more money on convenience or cosmetics.

I’m not saying all content should be accessible, there does need to be content tuned for higher and higher skill levels, open world meta events is not the place for that.

Also, people who spit venom at others for not having raid level awareness or DPS or for not being “good enough” should really take a long hard look at themselves because it’s a pathetic way to behave.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Reknarok.7582

[Redfeather.6401]

I think you are all right. Open World in Gw2 is better than ESO because it is more engaging and more challenging, but it needs to tone it down when it comes to this meta event. Open world should be about accessibility to a wide range of players. ESO has real problems with things being not difficult or engaging at all, but GW2 only just has overtuned meta events that need to be tweaked.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[Demented Lemur.7861]

The issue isn't the fact that the event is challenging. It's the RNG aspect that is the issue. If the boss had a more consistent pattern nobody would really be complaining unless the consistent pattern was one which people feel is unlucky by the current state of the meta. 3 bites in a row and 2 tail stages in a row can prevent completion entirely.

 

The events mechanics itself are not difficult to understand but there is no way you can effectively deal with certain Rng.

 

I got lucky in my run in which we didn't have too many tail or but stages and we eventually beat it with 5 minutes to spare. This indicates that it can be done with plenty of time to spare; however, you need good Rng which is the problem.

 

World bosses should be able to done by the average player who is not just spamming the one key the entire time in a reliable way. Not one that's based on having good rng

[jaif.3518]

I think people are arguing past the OP's basic point: open world content is for anyone, regardless of ability, timezone, language, guild membership, and so on.  It's for casual people who may never read a wiki, get a build from a website, or listen to global chat.   This content is too difficult for that.

 

Quote

Players who are now spoiled, entitled and want everything dropped in their lap with minimal effort, in an MMO no less, lost their way.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with hard content.  In my opinion, there's anything wrong with gating a cool, limited-function mount behind that hard content.  But it shouldn't be in the casual, open-world format in this game.

 

PS.  I know my gating comment will generate debate, but remember I did say "IMO" for that line.  

[Cegolex.8702]

1 hour ago, Reknarok.7582 said:

 Seriously though, the garbage that is spewing from some people in this thread is mind boggling.

 

” Just get better at the game! But I agree, the RNG is an issue…”

What about this statement is so garbage?

1 hour ago, Reknarok.7582 said:

”Do what Anet taught you!”

”Anet taught me to stand in green circles.”

”Noooo! Don’t do that!”

No one in this thread was saying you shouldnt stay in greens. It was always intended by Anet to stay in them. The only reason people at the beginning said you shouldnt was because you could abuse a bug and it got fixed.

2 hours ago, Reknarok.7582 said:

Open world content is there for everyone to participate in regardless of skill level, it should not take a single player of below average skill to tank a meta.

No one is excluding you or anyone from any meta. Over the weekend I joined up with other people over the lfg to be part of a guild that organizes the metamap a bit (no one checked if i was good or not). We were around 15 people and had no extra planning on who will bring which build. We joined a bit over an hour early before the meta started and accepted EVERYONE into the squad no build requirements or anything asked.

We just asked people to join a different subgroup if they were providing quickness or alac so we could do at least some group building(no skill requirement on any personal player required). We explained which buffs to get.

We provided food for everyone. And with the all the buffs on almost every player, mechanics explained and markers on the map.

We did the meta with over 2 minutes left on the timer even though we had quite bad rng with only 1 breakbar right before phasing and 3 swaps in a row.

A single person will never fail the meta when there are 60 on the map. Even 10 people will not make it fail. It is the average of everyone combined that will decide if the meta fill fail or not.

So can you explain in what way there is some magical barrier that keeps people from participating?

With the big emphasis on PARTICIPATING and try not to be a deadweight to the group.

People here in this game are very tolerant and like to help out people if they need help.

I have seen almost no toxicity yet in any of my meta maps.

What people dont like is others that dont want to at least put in the bare minimum effort into participating in a GROUP event when the things they need to do are so little and the commanders and a lot of people try their best for you.

 

And regards of every skill level,  a lot of metas would fail if it would consist of only complete beginners of the game with no gear no idea what to do. So should we nerf all the meta maps even more?

 

I like the idea that an event can fail.

No one said it should be so difficult it will always fail even when people are adjusted to the meta.

I will do it at least once a day and do my best to help people.

On a side note the guild i joined that does some organized runs for everyone just did its second successfull out of 2 total runs with not more than 10-15 people of the guild being there, so another 45 random people of every skill level did it.

[Friday.7864]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:54 AM, Lance Coolee.9480 said:

I do remember HoT release - and that contributes specifically to why I find it a bit nutty how this open world encounter was released in the state that it is. HoT shipped over 8 years ago. There have been FOUR major releases sense then!

I fully expect they'll balance this so that it's as achievable as all other farmable METAs, but for it to ship in the state that it's in and then only to hear Anet chime in on some small tuning changes feel like they're just not getting it.

They're so dense a neutron star might form at Anet headquarters 😀

[Jack Mc Daniel.5624]

This META event is just frustrating because you have little control over it. It's like playing the lottery and after the 10th failed attempt you don't want to play anymore. 😞

[Redfeather.6401]

What if open world events started doing what that charr concert did for success/fail status. In the charr concert if everyone participates in the event it will succeed but the success bar keeps going above 100% for extra credit. It's more fun that way. I seen it go as high as 400%. Losing out on some extra credit is less demoralizing than a binary outcome of pass/fail.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[LokiSaint.3457]

Everyone who wants this to be hard and unachievable can just play it themselves ^.^ But for that same reason the map population will soon die and no1 will remember this meta, not even the die-hards. I for one can't be bothered with this meta and I haven't returned to the map ever since. 

[Lance Coolee.9480]

So I finally got my turtle egg...

Hats off to HS guild and their discord for helping lead many folks through the META.

1. We had a well-disciplined comm organizing groups.
2. We had the entire map doing events for 10x participation buff and 5% map dmg buff.
3. We had ZERO discord noise aside from comm directing phases and transitions.
4. We had all the buffs.
5. We had all the DPS. All of it.
6. We were a well choreographed, raid ready group.

We beat the event with mere seconds to spare. I didn't see the number but it was legit less than 30s.

All of this so I can get a mount that I can gleefully taxi my 8 yr old daughter around in.

 

Let that sink in.

[decease.3215]

Oh arena net, what have you done.

The path you once taken is all but broken.
All is undone.
Soo-wan have come
to destroy this peace we have had for so long.
Meta or Raid?
Six only know.
Meta or Raid? The Six only knows.
The Cantha lives on,
and the elite's reborn,
compeled to RNG on.
What will we become?
Can you be forgiven when the cold grave has come?
Or will you have won, or will battle rage on?

 

....remind me of a song from dragon age 

[Shiroi Sennin.7935]

After playing so many times this meta, i think the problem is not the difficulty of the mechanics. They are easy to learn if you pay attention (In my experience, i was afraid of the wisp mechanics, but then i realized how EASY they are once you know what you have to do). The problem is how easy is for the meta to fail. (difficulty of the meta isn't the same as how easy is to be sabotaged by trolls/newbies)

This is not new. These past days I did Dragonfall meta and Dragonstorm for the legendary mats drop, and there was people who didn't want to stop attacking even when map chat was flooded with insults and nice people trying to explain them why they needed to stop. In these 2 metas, the meta could fail thanks to these trolls/newbies who didn't pay attention, but there is always enough time as back up to get them done if there's actually people who can pull their own weight.

In Dragon's End it's not that easy. You just need to be matched with a troll to make the wisp mechanics fail and affect the meta negatively. Sure, with these past nerf the meta is *still* doable if you fail them, but then you have this RNG on the boss's attacks and movements, and that makes a big difference between success with even 2 min+ left, or failing with 10%+ hp left.

What Anet needs to do is to make the wisp have a parallel timer and so that not all players turned into wisp have to get back to their bodies. For example, if 3 go, only 2 have to get back to succeed. This way, the wisp mechanics won't depend on luck and there won't be any chance for trolls to waste everyone's time. Also, maybe adding a cooldown on the boss's movement from one side to the other, so it's impossibe to spam it making everyone lose precious time. (THIS is something that also makes the meta so hard to success, and it is purely based on luck, not skill)

Oh, and I'd love to see an even harder version of this final fight if it comes as a raid/strike/fractal in a future. The problem right now is the 2 hours you need to invest every time you want to try it. Instanced content has the advantage of starting whenever you feel ready and having a previously made squad, and if you think you messed up at some point during the event, you can just reset it by writting /GG. In this open world event, you don't :')

Edited March 7, 2022 by Shiroi Sennin.7935
Extended

[rwolf.9571]

Anet will eventually realize. They can't sell mount skins to the casual whales. If that player base doesn't have the mount.
They have the data, and the design choice could hurt potential sales.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, wmtyrance.3571 said:

The harder content should be the group/raids/dungeon stuff. The story world stuff should be easy enough for everyone to enjoy. But the devs chose to listen to the hardcore player base that live on the forums. These people are in the minority of any modern mmo player base.. This all started with the fractals and expansions. And Arenanet still doesn't see it. If they never offered up the base game as f2p this game would be in a bad place. You play the base game for 80 levels and enjoy it. Then you think the expansions will be the same and they are not.

I agree that they messed up on the DE meta, but the core game is awful and everywhere they copy core game design (e.g. hearts, one-off events instead of story-related chains, etc.) it makes the game worse.  The best gameplay comes from HoT and story maps as they tend to have the best events, rewards, replay value, and story integration.

[Keymaster.7362]

I did read ANets post about how they wanted to make this meta challenging because it's the final fight of the whole dragon arc.

And to a certain point i agree with this decision.

 

But I think there is a huge difference between 'it should be harder than 1-2 bursts on every lane and then let's look 10 minuts at that wall in Tangled Depths' and 'only raid builds, only 5 man groups for all boons, hope for good rng, at best go in voice chat and gather in DR for a slightly chance of success'

[Bunny.9834]

I've never seen the community this DIVIDED.  

GW2 HAD the best Open-world experience and the people in charge had manage to mix the casual players with a group of elitist try-hard raiders and their "get-gud" mentality. 




 

[TrueChaoticNeutral.5104]

5 hours ago, DragonSlayer.1087 said:

I've never seen the community this DIVIDED.  

I think this may be even worse than the Ascended gear reveal during the Karka event. It's nuts.