The Entire DE Meta debate SUMMARIZED!

[Warzog.6315]

2 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

There is no debate to be had here. Mount or not, the meta is terrible, and sets a horrible precedent for any future maps. Under no circumstances should OW meta require role-centric subgroup organization, and have THAT level of RNG to it. There should not be groups asking for raid KP for an open world meta. If this new team at Anet doesn't realize that yet - well, they better learn now.

BINGO!

I've failed at this meta 4 times, heard folks complaining of failing 19, 22, 29, and 31 times. One person claimed to win it 2 of 4 times. Another, this morning, claimed to have won it 22 times without a loss. (He denied being a dev-yeah right)

I saw a video on youtube that showed it being easy, before the meta was nerfed.

I've played metas where I've lost maybe once or twice, but never, ever, every single time! I've never heard of folks losing a meta 31 times without a win.

Until now.

(BTW-Tying a mount to such a disaster is a seriously bad idea.)

[Hollowhisper.1093]

3 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

"That's the entire reason for the megatons of forum posts, the debates the arguments, the angry players, etc etc."

Incorrect. There are a lot of concerns about the current randomised mechanics and the way they impact LFGs. There are also concerns that part of the playerbase now tries to exclude other players who don't meet certain made-up gear score bars or some other stupid gatekeeper thing. It has nothing to do with turtles, it is concern for the way the game is heading to.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Hollowhisper.1093

[Katastroff.1045]

Im gonna give it a few more days before i attemp it again, gonna watch some videos of it and learn so i can be usefull in doing the meta. In the mean time, i'll just go hunt AP.... if i find something that's wont be bugged.

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

The biggest issue is the randomisation of her moves. I'd given up on getting my egg and was just in the map farming Imperial Favors with the rapid-fire events there when tags went up and I figured to just join since I'd get plenty more of the favors while doing it. It's complete irony that on the run where I was literally in a "I don't care if it fails, I'm just doing this for imperial favors" mentality that I got my egg is laughable. I've finally gotten the turtle egg after 15 attempts, and it was because we were darn lucky with the RNG. In the entire fight tail only came up 3 times (technically 4, but the 4th happened at 41% health and we just burned to 40%). We got no usable breakbars but she mostly behaved herself and just did her slam and swipe attack most of the time which didn't interrupt the dps too much. She swooped 3 times during the final 20% health, but thankfully with no tail to deal with at that stage we managed it with just over a minute to spare.

Compare this to my worst ever attempt where she spawned her tail 9 times and did 2-3 swoops minimum between every 20%, 2 of those tails were back-to-back during the final 20% health, and during the final 20% she also swooped 4 times. It was like the whole situation was just mocking us. We failed the run with just 1% left on her even though our dps was great when she sat still long enough for us to actually hit her. It's not that the playerbase can't deal with her mechanics, it's the fact the worst of those mechanics that lower the damage on her or stop you hitting her entirely for 10 sec+ are happening over and over in quick succession leaving the players helpless to do anything about it. You're literally at the mercy of random chance no matter how good your organisation/group is.

I'm under no illusion, I am darn lucky to finally have my turtle egg. I will also not be going back to that meta at all while the ludicrous RNG on her moves remains in place.

[Labjax.2465]

I thought that at first too, but it's evident after more reading there is also a consistent complaint about RNG in the meta design, as well as some consistent complaints relating to the overall difficulty (and toxic attitudes relating to it), map issues, time investment, and feelings of time wasted with nothing to show for it.

Amidst the people who use it as an opportunity to boast, I've seen posts from more casual and hardcore players both who are unhappy with it for different reasons: casual because it's demoralizing and too much; hardcore because they are being expected to carry people who are ill-equipped to complete the fight.

Someone even said that using discord makes a huge difference like that was some kind of solution to it being too difficult. Which is what you'd expect for a raid, not an open world boss.

Removing turtle from it would alleviate a lot of issues, I think, and it should never have been there to begin with. But I don't think it will fix the complaining on its own. At this point, with people already being burned out, I think if all they did was remove the turtle from it, it would just mean participation in it tanks until Anet finally caves and listens to their metrics if they refuse to listen to their vocal players.

[Elestrae.4927]

Can't speak for anyone else but the moment I get the turtle achievement started I'm not doing this meta anymore at all. It's bloody horrible, every part of the fight is a cheap copy-paste from the Dragon's Stand fight but just done more lazily (in my opinion DS is still one of the best meta's in the game!). Also whoever thought that insane RNG was a good idea might need to be re-assigned to another part of GW2s future development...

[blackheartgary.8605]

1 minute ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I thought that at first too, but it's evident after more reading there is also a consistent complaint about RNG in the meta design, as well as some consistent complaints relating to the overall difficulty (and toxic attitudes relating to it), map issues, time investment, and feelings of time wasted with nothing to show for it.

Amidst the people who use it as an opportunity to boast, I've seen posts from more casual and hardcore players both who are unhappy with it for different reasons: casual because it's demoralizing and too much; hardcore because they are being expected to carry people who are ill-equipped to complete the fight.

Someone even said that using discord makes a huge difference like that was some kind of solution to it being too difficult. Which is what you'd expect for a raid, not an open world boss.

Removing turtle from it would alleviate a lot of issues, I think, and it should never have been there to begin with. But I don't think it will fix the complaining on its own. At this point, with people already being burned out, I think if all they did was remove the turtle from it, it would just mean participation in it tanks until Anet finally caves and listens to their metrics if they refuse to listen to their vocal players.

a very solid response. thank you for this.  and yes i agree with you entirely.   while i still maintain that the vast majority of rage comes from the feel that the mount is being gatekept... if that was taken away, then  the focus would be on the issues of the meta event that people have expressed, and arguably, there would be a lot less people upset.  i won't lie...  tonight we got to 9% and because of a single missed breakbar,  it was a loss. it was a solid fight, and everyone on map was giving it all they had.  and if i'm honest, the last cc check was understandable, due to all that was happening around the group. 

there's two schools of thought, and both are upset with the whole thing.  but if one of those, the group that just wants the egg, didn't have to suffer through something they really don't want to do,  i think that would please them and that's a good thing. and for those that are in the other school of thought and focus on the fight itself,  even more focus on the fight would take place, albeit with less people.  I may be oversimplifying it, but i am not 100% wrong on this.  it really, really, is about "i just want the mount"  and personally, i don't.

 

[Skippyfurryface.2176]

I think that the meta is good and honestly can be very enjoyable, but I think that Anet just needs to increase the timer by like 5 minutes or decrease the health of the boss by a little. I have not successfully beat the final boss, but I feel that it would be very doable with one of those adjustments. Both times I have done this meta the group I was with was down to 20% or less and we just needed a little more time to dps.

[Einsof.1457]

best meta in the game. its epic, fun,  and dynamic. 10/10 would participate again.

[quaniesan.8497]

To OP: Don't put words in other people's mouths.  yes there are people who does it just for the mount, but please don't speak for the entire base. Quite the audacity . I did not authorize you to represent me and assume what I or other people think.  Talking about creating a fake strawman to beat up and being self-righteous about it.  Shut up and stand in the corner and reflect. People do this meta for a sense of completion and a good daily pass time like  DS for example.  This meta is put in a wrong place, and people are not happy. Simple as that. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by quaniesan.8497

[Ailis.7910]

I won’t repeat what others have said but, no, I don’t JUST want my mount. I want to beat this meta. I want the achieve for beating it. I want it to be a fun repeatable battle so I can get the other achieves. I want my trophy for the dagger collection from this meta - which means I have to play the new espec to attain that. I want an accessible fun meta for the casual gamer - especially those of us who have been here since day 1 of gw1 - which ties up the story we’ve lived through for nigh on a decade (longer if you played Factions).
 

if I wanted to raid I’d join a raid group. 

I’ve attempted this thing for 4 days straight many times a day and nothing. I’d rather be subjected to serpents ire again and that’s saying something. The Jade Sea was my favorite part of Factions. To have it turned into this is just….upsetting. 
 

People are bringing up the same valid points over and over and we’re getting zero response. It’s frustrating and demoralizing. 

[blackheartgary.8605]

9 minutes ago, quaniesan.8497 said:

To OP: Don't put words in other people's mouths.  yes there are people who does it just for the mount, but please don't speak for the entire base. Quite the audacity . I did not authorize you to represent me and assume what I or other people think.  Talking about creating a fake strawman to beat up and being self-righteous about it.  Shut up and stand in the corner and reflect. People do this meta for a sense of completion and a good daily pass time like  DS for example.  This meta is put in a wrong place, and people are not happy. Simple as that. 

hey there, thanks for the input.  oh, and thanks for you being you  and speaking your mind.  Don't  you worry, i'll do exactly what you just told me to do. i promise 🙂 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Disagree that it's just about the turtle.  It's not just about the difficulty either.  If you're paying attention, the length of the event from preparing the map to completing (or failing) the meta at around 2 hours is way too long and the RNG repeat invuln phases on the boss make it so that you have to play much better as a group if you're unlucky than if you're not.

If the turtle weren't an issue and if it didn't take 2 hours to fail this event with RNG a significant factor in success/failure, I don't think you'd be hearing half as many complaints about this otherwise really epic event.  It's visually stunning, the music and voicework is fantastic, and it's actually fun to play.  They just made some really awful design decisions surrounding it.

But I guess we can go with "turtle, turtle, turtle!" if that works better for you. 🙄

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I got my mount, but I'm clear that it got little to do with my skill, but simply because I got lucky to get into a good map.

 

I still think this map needs a big nerf, and the strike mission should be removed from requirement.

[Nidome.1365]

7 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

"I just want my mount".

 

Incorrect. Until you mentioned it I didn't know the meta was a requirement for getting the mount. As I was in no rush to get it I hadn't looked into the requirements.

I wanted to do the meta because it was there.

My problem with the meta is that it is a huge investment of uninterrupted time which I can probably only spare once or twice a week only to have that time wasted when you fail with the boss on <= 3% health.

Not every player in open world has a state-of-the-art PC with the latest gaming keyboard and mouse along with teenage reflexes. Personally it is almost 4 decades since I had teenage reflexes.

Open world content should be designed for average players (on the assumption that those below average will be balanced by those above average) without perfect organisation.

[Ototo.3214]

Actually incorrect for me.

Yes, I would like to get a turtle eventually, but that's not the only reason I'm frustrated with the meta event.

I...enjoy meta events. I think they are a very interesting way of making open world content way more engaging, and allowing maps to stay relevant well after they are released.

But this meta event? It's more of an exercise in frustration and futility; you dedicate a ton of time to getting to the final boss....knowing it's probably going to fail. And I haven't really felt like the rewards I got from the events leading up to that boss were very rewarding. So if I ever do get my turtle...why would I ever want to come back to this map? Assuming the meta remains as is. I could instead go do like...Drizzlewood, or join a train going through all the metas with Amalgamated Gemstone drops. There's a reason things like Serpent's Ire had to be nerfed in PoF. People stopped giving a skritt after a while because it was much more difficult and less rewarding than the Chak Gerent event that happens at the same time. And even things like Chak Gerent itself had to be adjusted in the beginning. I'm not against difficult content, I very much enjoyed doing raids while working on the legendary armor. But I don't need that in open world, I can seek out a group to raid with if I want to seek that out. At least for me, meta events are chances to get together with a bunch of random people in a map, joke around in map chat, have a relatively chill time, smack a big monster, and get some loot.

That's not to say this meta can't be the most difficult one. But if you ask me, when people have to resort to asking people for raid kill proofs and paying people to leave maps just to have a chance at clearing an open world meta event...that's a bit much. I don't even think it needs to be like...super heavily nerfed, there just shouldn't be so much RNG. If players manage to break the break bar, give em a hot second to actually DPS before she starts flying around. Same goes for how frequently the tail can come up sometimes. I think the fight just needs a little more consistency in the mechanics for people to learn. Even raid bosses have that. Granted, I have only attempted the meta event 1 more time since the change to the green circles mechanic, but with how people were talking in the chats throughout I don't think I want to engage with the meta event until it's either changed or people randomly figure out some mindblowing strategy to coordinate it.

[Pretty Pixie.8603]

Quote

9 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

Think about this for a brief moment, if you will:

first, let's strip the egg from the event. By doing this, those who feel they are required to do something they do not want to do no longer have to do it. 

second, let's  look at the event. it does not ask for KP. it does not ask for builds. it does not ask for LI. Players do that.  The event is not to blame for the choices players make in how to organize their teams, as the event does not demand those things. 

Third, yes it's hard. So was gerent. Yes it has RNG and that should be looked at.  as far as it being fair or unfair, that's not my call.  The fairness or unfairness of a thing is determined by the individual's opinion. 

I am simply stating a fact. if you remove the turtle (or egg) from the event, there would be less arguing about it. the focus would then be on the mechanics of the event itself.  I don't feel superior to anyone. i see things in their complexity and then bring them down to their simplest form. in short, i summarize.  hence the post. 🙂

 

 

Egg stripped. You are left with a meta that's the culmination of 10 years of Dragon story, as stated by Rubi. The game doesn't directly ask for KP, as you say, people do. Why do people do this? Because the design makes it optimal to do so. In an open world meta. 

 

The Chak Gerent had similar problems, as you say, and got nerfed quickly. It still fails at times.  I don't think you're bringing the issue down to it's simplest form. I think you're committing a reductio ad absurdum.

[Ameepa.6793]

I just want my mount

[Peterson.5172]

9 hours ago, Katastroff.1045 said:

Im gonna give it a few more days before i attemp it again, gonna watch some videos of it and learn so i can be usefull in doing the meta. In the mean time, i'll just go hunt AP.... if i find something that's wont be bugged.

this, so many of the collections requiring events are bugged lefft and right

[Shaaba.5672]

6 hours ago, Nidome.1365 said:

Not every player in open world has a state-of-the-art PC with the latest gaming keyboard and mouse along with teenage reflexes. Personally it is almost 4 decades since I had teenage reflexes.

A-men to all of this. I am old, a gaming computer is not my priority, I just like this game and I am tired of people telling me that I just need to try harder or research my build. Whatever. I can do challenging solo content, but in open world metas, I end up getting frustrated at things not rendering properly and fighting my computer more than the boss. I'm still one of their players whether you like it or not. I have accepted that there is a lot in this game that I don't enjoy or just can't manage and I'm fine with that.

I think the difficulty for this open world meta is asking too much of regular, casual players, and it's leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. It's also horrible word of mouth advertising that I can't imagine they are happy with. Poor decision on their part.

I'll get my egg eventually somehow, I am not in a hurry, but in the meantime I feel a little bit cheated out of a mastery - but to be fair, I feel cheated out of basically the entire suite of masteries for this x-pac because none of them are really fun or impactful, just micro-managing busy work and things we have gotten before for free - I'm looking at you Arborstone.

[Imba.9451]

Expecting 50 people to organize in a way raid groups do, with no means to actually organize your party, because you can kick people from an open world map, is just plain stupid.

I am all in for a 50 man raid. But give us the lobby to prepare.

 

And that doesn't even cover the RNG of her moves, wich are just pure kitten. I had her swoop 5 times in a row from one end of the arena to the other yesterday. Was a decent run. Not gonna say it would 100% resulted in a win, but those 5 swoops, together with the tail coming up again inbetween after we just cleared it was the final nail in the coffin for that run.

 

This encounter is NOT designed very well. And it is not fit to be put in OW.

[Luthan.5236]

I don't even get why people want to complete everything so fast - especially when the turtle does not seem that interesting. Yeah: "Completion" - and I like that a lot as well. Though I feel less pressure since I know I can't complete everything. (Not good at every part of the game.)

But there is so much other content. Do those people already have complete all the other map achievements and stuff and maxed everything ... just waiting to finish the turtle for the higher mastery level number? If not ... they could just do other stuff (like going for another of the new legendaries) ... while waiting for players to get better at the meta. Just tried it the first time yesterday. Does not seem that impossible. (For me the main problem was that my computer is too old. Lol. I guess the sys requirements for EoD - which are a bit higher than for the other parts of the game - were mainly for this meta lol.)

Edited March 8, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[ctorrezan.3498]

I don't care about the mount, I just don't want an entire boss fight based in RNG, it's not player/group skill, it's luck, yesterday my group took the boss to 20% with 4min to go, what did RNG do when she reached it? Another spear mechanic, yeah, what happened after it? The 3 platforms mechanics and our time went down the drain. I raided in WoW and FFXIV and I never seen nothing like it.

Edited March 8, 2022 by ctorrezan.3498

[Hotride.2187]

14 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

There is no debate to be had here. Mount or not, the meta is terrible, and sets a horrible precedent for any future maps. Under no circumstances should OW meta require role-centric subgroup organization, and have THAT level of RNG to it. There should not be groups asking for raid KP for an open world meta. If this new team at Anet doesn't realize that yet - well, they better learn now.

I've been in several squads which organized groups (for alac and quickness), the best one got the boss to 9% (there was 2 min left after the 2nd minibosses, but the boss did what the boss does, decided to run around in circles around the platform - for the 2nd time during the encounter).

Its more than just subgroup organization, players need to know how to dps well. Considering how open world events and mobs fold like paper to players not doing dps, that is a lost cause. No one will look up and practice dpsing if 99% of the content doesn't need this.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[The Boz.2038]

I wanted it because of my elite spec collection.