What makes Virtuoso "elite spec"?

[Mell.4873]

54 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

At this point I think @Obtena.7952 would be a better person to talk with, at least they can hold a conversation without forgetting what they previously said in the same post.  You do you Mell, turning off people in this forum one at a time... well done.

Well then the only people left will like Virtuoso so i'm okay with that.

[Veprovina.4876]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well then the only people left will like Virtuoso so i'm okay with that.

Oh, so you do have an agenda against mesmers, what a shocker! 🙄

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, so you do have an agenda against mesmers, what a shocker! 🙄

More i was labeled with one, but anyway i only agreed with him when he said the in Open World content buffs are more important than dps.

[Veprovina.4876]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

More i was labeled with one, but anyway i only agreed with him when he said the in Open World content buffs are more important than dps.

You know, i won't even pretend to know what you're talking about. Between your obliviously confirming other people's argumets, and your blatant hatered for mesmers and wanting them to fail by praising bad design and lying about problems, i don't think anyone, even Anet can take you seriously. 

[RlyOsim.2497]

it's just so bad

[necromaniac.7629]

I think they ran out of ideas, maybe cause we already had very strong p dps (chrono) and c dps (mirage) and on top of that, those gave boon support so idk.

The pros with virtuoso though is that it kinda fixed chrono's slow damage ramp up weakness which makes it mes more viable in fractals, and as for condi virtuoso its also way more easier to play compared to the more complex condi mirage.

I think its a good spec at the end of the day, its just that chrono's and mirage's designs are so crazy that we are spoiled and expected it to be on par with chrono and mirage.

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Between your obliviously confirming other people's argumets, and your blatant hatered for mesmers and wanting them to fail by praising bad design and lying about problems, i don't think anyone, even Anet can take you seriously. 

I love Mesmer that's why it is my main? If you make a good point which you did I will agree with you, why do I need to come out on top with each argument.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Yoci.2481]

If they really want to balance the game in competitive game modes, which they should want considering this is a game which has (had) its focus on WvW and PvP as end game content, they would need to have their own internal tools to gather information. This shouldn't be too hard for PvP. How many hours of Mesmer play time vs. other professions, how many games won and lost and so on. How does bringing a Mesmer to the fight affect the outcome of a game. Collect all that data and balance based on it.

For WvW it would be a bit harder because of the well unstructured nature of that game mode. Still they can log the hours of Mesmer game play, they can log encounters between professions, 1v1, small scale, large scale. Which classes do people bring, which classes are more likely to win etc. One would think that after 10+ years they would have developed such tools and are using them to balance the game based on data. And if they really do that it would be awesome. Perhaps my subjective experience is wrong and when you look at the data objectively Mesmer is doing fine in competitive game modes. Show us the data and I will shut up. But somehow I have the feeling they don't have such tools. Somehow I have the feeling they don't have any data to work on and that they do all their balancing based on gut feelings and Reddit complaints.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:33 AM, Nezekan.2671 said:

Anyone who says "Virtuoso has better synergy with core than Chrono" knows nothing about Mesmer and their opinion about the class can and should be ignored.

There is a trait in dueling that makes illusion crits apply bleeding. This is significant damage if you are condi. Guess who doesn't even have illusions.

There are 2 traits in domination that increase illusion damage. Guess who doesn't have illusions.

There is a trait in chaos that gives you concentration if you have regen. Guess who doesn't have boons to give.

Staff and scepter attacks completely rely on clone auto attacks to apply conditions and without clones, these weapons are fully nerfed.

Sword auto attack rips boons and clones do this too. Guess who doesn't have clones.

The grandmaster trait in illusions can make Mesmer F3 (the daze shatter) aoe. Guess who has a F3 that is forced to be single target and doesn't work with the trait?

 

Ok you just proven you know nothing about mesmer. 

Virtuoso has illusions, maybe go to wiki and check what illusion, clone, phantasm are. 

Bleed on crit trait is literally 0 damage in PvP, WvW. Even if it was impactful it wouldn't be because clones are paper and die to any spec in 2 seconds so same goes for every, boon, condi, boon rip on third auto attack in a chain lmao that CLONES do. Clones are garbage AI that has kitten hp and every spec kills before they can finish 2 autos. And you still have illusions because you have phantasms which are illusions. 

You know what is actual useful synergy? Signet heal and heal on illusion summon trait in inspiration together with 3 blades generated with when blocking/dodging in virtuoso that procs it 3 times and heals for a lot? Or maybe utility on 60s cd that gives you distortion and full blades which also heal you while generated with same heal and trait. Or if you play ether feast you get at 9k heal on 25s cd at full blades, on other mes spec you can't get 5 clones and even 3 will rarely live enough time for you to get a heal cast off lmao. 

And if you argument is PvE, Virtuoso is highest DPS in the game as condi build despite not having clones. 

And please don't even try mention WvW lol

 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:27 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

The post I qouted.

 

On 3/19/2022 at 1:01 AM, Masteis.9720 said:

 

Ppl mentioned that Virtuoso has lower DPS, not "no damage" 

 

Chrono and Mirage  43.6k dps (both same), and recently published Virtuoso benchmark is 40k

 

Mirage https://youtu.be/VT68w1dd_Yo

Chrono https://youtu.be/j8GVcvQ-V7w

 

 

 

Seems to be the people crying about virtuoso are the ones resorting to lies claiming mirage and chrono do more dps than virtuoso lol, unlucky maybe next time bud

[Nezekan.2671]

13 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Ok you just proven you know nothing about mesmer. 

Virtuoso has illusions, maybe go to wiki and check what illusion, clone, phantasm are. 

Bleed on crit trait is literally 0 damage in PvP, WvW. Even if it was impactful it wouldn't be because clones are paper and die to any spec in 2 seconds so same goes for every, boon, condi, boon rip on third auto attack in a chain lmao that CLONES do. Clones are garbage AI that has kitten hp and every spec kills before they can finish 2 autos. And you still have illusions because you have phantasms which are illusions. 

You know what is actual useful synergy? Signet heal and heal on illusion summon trait in inspiration together with 3 blades generated with when blocking/dodging in virtuoso that procs it 3 times and heals for a lot? Or maybe utility on 60s cd that gives you distortion and full blades which also heal you while generated with same heal and trait. Or if you play ether feast you get at 9k heal on 25s cd at full blades, on other mes spec you can't get 5 clones and even 3 will rarely live enough time for you to get a heal cast off lmao. 

And if you argument is PvE, Virtuoso is highest DPS in the game as condi build despite not having clones. 

And please don't even try mention WvW lol

 

Lol, how bad can you be? Clones are extremely useful in every mode and anyone who says they are not has never been good at Mesmer, and you are case in point. Ranged clones are extremely awkward to deal with because they need to be targeted and hit, and this is a damage that you are not taking. AI being kitten is meaningless here, all they do is auto attack and they do it well. "AI being kitten" is a cop out on your part. Not to mention that Mirage can utilize this even better with infinite horizons, as clones are invulnerable while they are executing their ambush attack.

If you think this and you believe yourself to be a Mesmer player, I am sorry to say you will never be good at pvp or wvw with mesmer. This is a casual mindset. 

Phantamsm attack once and disappear, clones remain. So virtuoso benefits much less from traits that affect illusions. Every weapon set has exactly ONE phantasm. Healing was never an issue for mesmer, if you want a sustain build, Mirage is 10 times better than this so called signet synergy.

Bonus meme: Mirage completely obliterates Virtuoso because clone attacks waste aegis. But clones bad, am I right?

Edited March 26, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[godfat.2604]

Scales matter. The higher scale (20+ vs 20+, WvW exclusive) the less important clones are, the lower scale (5- vs 5-, WvW or PvP) the more important clones are. Mesmers have different problems in different scales. We better address both.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Ok you just proven you know nothing about mesmer. 

Virtuoso has illusions, maybe go to wiki and check what illusion, clone, phantasm are. 

Bleed on crit trait is literally 0 damage in PvP, WvW. Even if it was impactful it wouldn't be because clones are paper and die to any spec in 2 seconds so same goes for every, boon, condi, boon rip on third auto attack in a chain lmao that CLONES do. Clones are garbage AI that has kitten hp and every spec kills before they can finish 2 autos. And you still have illusions because you have phantasms which are illusions. 

You know what is actual useful synergy? Signet heal and heal on illusion summon trait in inspiration together with 3 blades generated with when blocking/dodging in virtuoso that procs it 3 times and heals for a lot? Or maybe utility on 60s cd that gives you distortion and full blades which also heal you while generated with same heal and trait. Or if you play ether feast you get at 9k heal on 25s cd at full blades, on other mes spec you can't get 5 clones and even 3 will rarely live enough time for you to get a heal cast off lmao. 

And if you argument is PvE, Virtuoso is highest DPS in the game as condi build despite not having clones. 

And please don't even try mention WvW lol

 

So Virt is good because it heals yourself a lot? Is that a new strategy? Killing your enemies by healing yourself a lot. 

2 clones deal more damage than 5 blades and the shatter easier to land too. 

I've not a fan of clones but between clones and a useless floating effect I rather have something functional which I can use according to the situation.

[Mell.4873]

39 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 2 clones deal more damage than 5 blades and the shatter easier to land too. 

Did you not read his post, Virtuoso already does more damage and doesn't need clones.

In most if not all pve scenarios Virtuoso will come out on top, maybe just maybe with a good Mirage which I can play well you can do slightly more damage. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

45 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Did you not read his post, Virtuoso already does more damage and doesn't need clones.

In most if not all pve scenarios Virtuoso will come out on top, maybe just maybe with a good Mirage which I can play well you can do slightly more damage. 

Except it doesn't and its not a debate, it's a fact. 

Who the kitten cares about pve? You can be naked with level 1 weapons and do fine.

[Puck.3697]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:01 AM, Masteis.9720 said:

 

Ppl mentioned that Virtuoso has lower DPS, not "no damage" 

 

Chrono and Mirage  43.6k dps (both same), and recently published Virtuoso benchmark is 40k

 

Mirage https://youtu.be/VT68w1dd_Yo

Chrono https://youtu.be/j8GVcvQ-V7w

 

 

 

Outdated videos there. They're both way lower now realistically.

Virtuoso does have a higher bench in afraid. It has the highest bench in the game currently. And given full ranged nature it will lose less dps over the fight compared to melee options as its not gonna lose uptime effectively. 

Virtuoso from a raider / fractal player, will likely be somewhat positive. Because it's alot less flawed in those enviroments. The major flaw being 0 boons. But there's lots of players who just adore being top of the meters. 

Virtuosos major problems are pretty much WvWvW / spvp exclusive. Except the fact virtuoso has no options to boons meaning it won't make it to meta choice. 

Tbh from a PvE point of view it's alot of fun, and in spvp it could be alot of fun, gameplay wise I think it's alot smoother and enjoyable compared to other new elites. 

It's just the 100 roadblocks they stuck in its path to PvP viability which has sadly rendered it in a bad state. 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ClickToKill.8473]

Perhaps in a WvW zerg situation Virtuoso is terrible because of all the projectile kill.  But in much smaller fights, if you play around those defenses, Virtuoso still has a big spike in PvP.

 

The spec isn't really that bad, its just not out of the gate OP. (like the PoF e-specs were) 

[Puck.3697]

43 minutes ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

Perhaps in a WvW zerg situation Virtuoso is terrible because of all the projectile kill.  But in much smaller fights, if you play around those defenses, Virtuoso still has a big spike in PvP.

 

The spec isn't really that bad, its just not out of the gate OP. (like the PoF e-specs were) 

The problem is even other EoD proffessions are spiking harder with less counterplay. 

Are we ignoring the fact harbinger has a vault which not only CC's but can 1 shot all inside a mobility skill?. 

Or the fact Condi spectre can burst like a power DPS? 

Virtuoso is not fine. Even against the other EoD proffessions. The only difference is, less of the EoD elites are viable in PvP enviroments to begin with. 

Harbinger is effectively doing what virtuoso was susposed to be. With the mobility, front loaded damage and defensive options needed to make it work. 

We are in the same boat as willbender is to herald almost at this point. Because they released a successful glass cannon next to a shoddy one. 

The only sad news is virtuoso is actually more fun 🤦 which is rather annoying given the fact harbingers the choice to make, your team are quite likely to give up the moment you walk in with virtuoso 😂

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

Perhaps in a WvW zerg situation Virtuoso is terrible because of all the projectile kill.  But in much smaller fights, if you play around those defenses, Virtuoso still has a big spike in PvP.

 

The spec isn't really that bad, its just not out of the gate OP. (like the PoF e-specs were) 

You get better and more guaranteed hits from playing power Core Mesmer.  Mainly due to the projectiles on Virtuoso not having tracking.

[LucianDK.8615]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is even other EoD proffessions are spiking harder with less counterplay. 

Are we ignoring the fact harbinger has a vault which not only CC's but can 1 shot all inside a mobility skill?. 

Or the fact Condi spectre can burst like a power DPS? 

Virtuoso is not fine. Even against the other EoD proffessions. The only difference is, less of the EoD elites are viable in PvP enviroments to begin with. 

Harbinger is effectively doing what virtuoso was susposed to be. With the mobility, front loaded damage and defensive options needed to make it work. 

We are in the same boat as willbender is to herald almost at this point. Because they released a successful glass cannon next to a shoddy one. 

The only sad news is virtuoso is actually more fun 🤦 which is rather annoying given the fact harbingers the choice to make, your team are quite likely to give up the moment you walk in with virtuoso 😂

 

 

 

The Harbinger has no whatsoever defensive options in its new kit.

[Duglaive.5236]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

You get better and more guaranteed hits from playing power Core Mesmer.  Mainly due to the projectiles on Virtuoso not having tracking.

 

So much this in my experience. So much so that I've figured I must be doing something wrong.

[Levetty.1279]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:25 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~Tipcat/5/#/

You can burst higher on support specs.

[Puck.3697]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:42 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

You can burst higher on support specs.

Im either reading this wrong. or ur saying Support builds can burst over 100k DPS? o.O Now.. correct me if im wrong but im pretty certain they cannot

[Mik.3401]

Virtuoso I just there to enable brain dead dps play outside of staff mirage. It looks like they did not have any other plans for it. Frankly I think it’s nice to do raids and not worry about continuum split/correct axe mirage rotation. It’s a nice option for beginners, I just wish the spec had more to offer than this.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Virtuoso I just there to enable brain dead dps play outside of staff mirage. It looks like they did not have any other plans for it. Frankly I think it’s nice to do raids and not worry about continuum split/correct axe mirage rotation. It’s a nice option for beginners, I just wish the spec had more to offer than this.

If the Virtuoso offered more wouldn't you then be worrying about whatever the equivalent of continuum split/correct axe mirage rotation would be?

I tease, but really, I am enjoying the fact that, at least for today, it appears that Mesmer has an eSpec that is being set up for success in multiple game modes and doesn't require you do anything but focus on optimal DPS via positioning and rotation. 

I also don't know if it is necessarily great for beginners either, since I see a lot of Virtuoso players dead due to the glassy nature of it.  Once a player understands most of the game and profession mechanics, they should be fine, but then they are a skilled player, not a beginner anymore.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364