EoD and DE meta is the moment GW2 turned from a solo RPG to a true MMO, and it must be defended.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Dralor.3701 said:

I’m guessing most people who are still playing MMOs didn’t get to experience EQ back in the day.

My first mmo... it's partly why I won't raid anymore, being a magician mana-rod w...., wow being the other...

Dying in the planes could mean hours of corpse recovery... break in fear and wipe.. call in second guild to help.. they wipe... call in The Pantheon to help recovery for everyone lmao.

Train to zone! pure chaos at zone in lmao.

Camping out random named spawns that could take days to show, annoying....

All fun memorable times, back then, sure as heck would not want to play that game today...

[Labjax.2465]

Hanging out in discord for an hour or two and following the instructions of a raid leader does not alone make an MMO social any more than driving very fast off a ramp makes a car into an airplane. Much like the car is fighting gravity and has nothing in its skillset to win against it, one encounter does not make this into a social game; the majority of it languishes in a limbo state between requiring careful organizing and allowing you to solo your way through nearly everything. Usually leaning more toward the 2nd. When it swings toward the 1st, people get majorly thrown off by the expectations, historically, and it doesn't go well for the game's health as a whole.

If you want a truly cooperative, interdependent virtual world where you have to talk to other people and rely on them, the best I can recommend is a time machine to play the original SWG. As grumpy as I am about it, they don't seem to make games like that anymore. They make sectioned off theme parks now. And I get what I can enjoy knowing them for what they are. Driving a car off a ramp at high speeds might be a cool trick under very safe, controlled conditions (I'm assuming there are some extreme sports out there doing it somewhere), but if I want to fly somewhere, I'm taking an airplane. Design goals like "we want our players to enjoy the experience of flying while in a car" doesn't sell me. What is this game good at on a fundamental level, capitalize on that, ya know. Many a game has been made worse because its developers wanted it to be something it's not, or couldn't figure out what it's supposed to be. And their car/airplane/sailboat becomes an identity crisis to the point it isn't useful as any of them.

The part that requires some real humility is, IME, the players may in some instances have a clearer picture on what a game is than the developers. That's hard to admit and work with professionally, but the players are the ones who see it without being biased by whiteboards and storyboards and whatever else. They just experience it, raw, without any insider knowledge on how it was put together or why, and they can tell you very clearly and distinctly what it is to them and what works and what doesn't. To put it one way, a designer can tell you what the game is supposed to be. A player can tell you what it is. And I bring this up because the developer may look at the game's inner workings and not really understand why one aspect of it lands well and another doesn't. And chasing this on conjecture without listening properly can probably lead to some identity crisis problems over time.

[PANAGIOTIS.4183]

Imo Devs should only address the RNG problem of the encounter .

Anet shouldn't have provided alternative way to get the turtle simply because all what's left now is probably a dead meta ...the most important one so far.

I don't get why "I am playing solo-it used to be free reward-I want to play something easy after work" people must get their way.

I play this game too and I like some challenging stuff with nice reward at the end besides map explorations, mindless zerg metas and a 4hours long autoattacking story .

 

Open world players, raiders, pvpers, wvwers, "casuals" and "hardcores",

the EoD meta is not unbeatable , almost every new spec spits quickness or alacrity and deals more DMG than before even if you don't know how to .

You just need to use 2 basic things, it is how this particular content is designed. Positioning and CC, that's it... If you are not willing to put that "extra" effort then don't go for the cool reward this time, do the other fun stuff EOD provides , either way we can all move on with our lives and siege turtles have nothing to do with this .

[MechanicalMind.9126]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:33 PM, volca.7234 said:

(edited and clipped for focus)

its not work and stop treating it as such.

 

I mean you could say that.. but the issue is.. after doing the meta for the first five times, it becomes work. Especially when it takes 2 hours, is failable even with a full map. You get no rewards of checkpoint stuff if one fails. 

I mean apparently the awards for the turtle is going elsewhere so theres that...

but as it currently stands.. i mean.. its kind of a job.. doing it over and over.. fun the first couple of tries but after that. yeah.. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by MechanicalMind.9126

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Now I'm never going to complete the triple trouble achievement.

Edited March 12, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Justforvisit.3709]

"EoD and DE meta is the moment GW2 turned from a solo RPG to a true MMO"

Yes, true. Into a true MMO from the early 2000's. Or should I rather say, from 2004?

We're past that now though, 18 years later.

[Lance Coolee.9480]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You're right.

But still, even after so many years, I cannot find a team large enough to complete triple trouble.

When we do try, we fail everytime.

Thete are other events and metas that you cannot solo, such as bounties, which in a particular one took me 3 hours to find just about enough people to do it.

 

These are things that ANet needs to address... and I already suggested to either increase the loot quality or just gives us mercs as a backup choice, if we can't find enough people for certain events that have been forgotten or/and not worth doing again.

 

I like both being a solo RPGer and a MMOer in equal measures. 

But there are times when I just wanna get on with doing things and not having to waste hour after hour to tdy gather people to do certain things.

 

I managed to solo all but the last dungeons with my first Scourge Necro and minions.

I was lucky enough to get into a group to do the Citadel of flame, which I would have solved too if I had figured out the last boss. .. which eventually I did, anyways, and ended up showing tje others how, on the spot.

Kinda "Learn on the job" thing.

 

Anyways, not to rattle on... I'm happy for you that things turned out like that.

But I ask ANet not to forget older content and please try revive it.

We need people on Triple Trouble and bounties.

Perhaps they could do double bonus week specials on those.

Keep an eye on LFG, there are guilds that do TTT routinely. Haven't checked since EoD launch, and wouldn't be surprised if they're on hiatus for a bit through EoD.

I'll also keep an eye out and if I find they have a schedule, I'll dm you.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Justforvisit.3709 said:

"EoD and DE meta is the moment GW2 turned from a solo RPG to a true MMO"

Yes, true. Into a true MMO from the early 2000's. Or should I rather say, from 2004?

We're past that now though, 18 years later.

By what logic one meta event suddenly changes the whole game into something entirely different?

[ugrakarma.9416]

7 hours ago, PANAGIOTIS.4183 said:

Open world players, raiders, pvpers, wvwers, "casuals" and "hardcores",

Everything in its place. I've spent 2 years on WvW. was once time a "wvw player" following guild meta, discord, all that  stuff. i never wanted open world PVE become this. when i wanna play wvw i just jump on wvw. 

 

To me its just seem the company is on budget mode and want cut off instanced content ever... so they did this "experiment" making a open world raid.... long time ago toned down dungeons, then raids, now fractals, to end up in "strikes", just world boss boxed in a room...., well what can be even lower than strikes? no instanced content! open world pve will be "challeging" content.

[sewenewes.4176]

I get the feeling that the oh so skilled players of Guild Wars 2 don't understand how much of a joke the game is considered to be by competitive players in the MMORPG space. Making the open world harder and pushing strikes or raids on the existing players won't attract the competitive crowd in sufficient numbers because they already have games in this genre that are not only more popular but also been tailored to support that kind of gameplay. They look at the chaotic laser shows masquerading as group content, notice that players can't see each other's important abilities or even the boss' abilities due to the seizure inducing visual noise, and go back to raiding in their game of choice. 

The soft trinity and the lack of serious balancing (not this limp-wristed "We'll get to it, eventually." attitude of changing some values every half a year) also deters those who enjoy content that requires highly organized teams. People in WoW howl in rage if their favourite specializations underperform by just 5% compared to their competitors while in GW2 it's been duly noted and accepted that some will deal half the damage of others even when both are played optimally. That's abysmal.

Benchmarks | Snow Crows

Arenanet is trying to cater to a segment of the playerbase that's small and will always remain small due to how the game has been designed.

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, ewenness.6482 said:

I get the feeling that the oh so skilled players of Guild Wars 2 don't understand how much of a joke the game is considered to be by competitive players in the MMORPG space. Making the open world harder and pushing strikes or raids on the existing players won't attract the competitive crowd in sufficient numbers because they already have games in this genre that are not only more popular but also been tailored to support that kind of gameplay. They look at the chaotic laser shows masquerading as group content, notice that players can't see each other's important abilities or even the boss' abilities due to the seizure inducing visual noise, and go back to raiding in their game of choice. 

The soft trinity and the lack of serious balancing (not this limp-wristed "We'll get to it, eventually." attitude of changing some values every half a year) also deters those who enjoy content that requires highly organized teams. People in WoW howl in rage if their favourite specializations underperform by just 5% compared to their competitors while in GW2 it's been duly noted and accepted that some will deal half the damage of others even when both are played optimally. That's abysmal.

Benchmarks | Snow Crows

Arenanet is trying to cater to a segment of the playerbase that's small and will always remain small due to how the game has been designed.

Yeah, I've been paying attention more to mobs in open world, what their mechanics are, how they work, how you're expected to handle them best and what I'm noticing is: 1) most of it doesn't matter as long as you DPS them down fast enough and have some reflect to handle ranged. 2) when it does matter, some of it is just spectacle, not actual difficulty. As in, it's more about looking splashy than it is putting forward an interesting mechanic you need to work out. "Here are 10 different circles in random places near the boss every 10 seconds or so." 3) the designers are obsessed with knocking you back and stunning you because you didn't react instantly to a huge circle, or because they just felt like it. Like you did something really arbitrary like get too close to a particular mob in melee as a melee structured build, so it decides to knock you back and you can't do anything about it. Wow, much skill, very mechanics. 4) some mobs are built like they expect certain builds or even classes to handle them best. I saw one in a LW3 zone where it says it's weakened by chill or something. As melee ele, if I remember right, I got like one ability that does chill. What am I supposed to do with that information.

Or how about encounters where the boss goes into the exact same invulnerability phase every 25%, so you have to do the same invulnerability break mechanic 3 times before you can kill them. Or maybe it's slightly varied what the mechanic is, but it's still mostly just repetitive phases of the same thing happening again and again.

The one that really jaw dropped me in incredulity recently was playing LW3 ep 6, the first mission in it, where it comes across like you have to solve a puzzle while fighting the boss at the end to break their first invulnerability phase, based on a puzzle introduced earlier in the mission. I'm still not sure if you actually have to solve it or just get close, what broke it seemed like the opposite of what I thought they wanted, but it floored me the expectation of dodging attacks while trying to solve a puzzle. Not difficult, just incredibly annoying.

I'm focusing on the bad here, I'm not saying it's all a poor experience, but those are some things that stand out to me.

[AlenaVolkova.8179]

It is not socializing if you're just gonna play with only your guild mates or specific others (raid gears, boons, foods, etc).

 

Claiming the game is MMO, yet, you are playing this as just MO, and it sucks, this should be discouraged, we're fighting end times, we're meant to have massive amount of players, rather than 50+ only and claim it as acceptable for an end game meta.

 

I would much prefer being forced into 6 groups for coordinated fight similar to Dragon's Stand if you prefer more MMO approached meta. Hell, DrizzleWood doing a great job despite being casual, since a few always stay behind and defend any secured settlement should there be any incursion.

 

DE does a bad job at this, and it should be changed, whether you like it or not.

[battledrone.8315]

13 hours ago, ewenness.6482 said:

I get the feeling that the oh so skilled players of Guild Wars 2 don't understand how much of a joke the game is considered to be by competitive players in the MMORPG space. Making the open world harder and pushing strikes or raids on the existing players won't attract the competitive crowd in sufficient numbers because they already have games in this genre that are not only more popular but also been tailored to support that kind of gameplay. They look at the chaotic laser shows masquerading as group content, notice that players can't see each other's important abilities or even the boss' abilities due to the seizure inducing visual noise, and go back to raiding in their game of choice. 

The soft trinity and the lack of serious balancing (not this limp-wristed "We'll get to it, eventually." attitude of changing some values every half a year) also deters those who enjoy content that requires highly organized teams. People in WoW howl in rage if their favourite specializations underperform by just 5% compared to their competitors while in GW2 it's been duly noted and accepted that some will deal half the damage of others even when both are played optimally. That's abysmal.

Benchmarks | Snow Crows

Arenanet is trying to cater to a segment of the playerbase that's small and will always remain small due to how the game has been designed.

all mmo endgame looks like this, i just face the brightest star and do my rotation. its the only way i can cope.

[volca.7234]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:41 PM, DragonMoon.6098 said:

People keep saying "you need good dps" but I haven't seen anywhere stating what exactly good dps is in the realm of things (and no, I'm not talking about what some min/maxing elitist snob thinks is good dps). My Condi Druid puts out about 8k on average in a longer fight, but I've seen it hit 11k...her primary damage is from bleeding, so her damage is definitely not front-loaded like a lot of people push for. But she still pumps out 8k on average for a boss according to ArcDPS (about 4k on trash mobs)...and she's got the survivability that I like. Some people don't like playing glass cannon builds. I have a mind-numbing GS/LB/ROAR BEAR ROAR!!! build...I hate it. She hates it. 

GW2 has always been about accessibility for all player types. I couldn't have said it better than darkwarrior.6102...this extroverted mentality of "everybody needs to just join guilds and deal" is so tiresome...because that attitude is sadly not limited to gaming. Thankfully, in some places, it's changing. I work in corporate finance, which for the longest time was hard to succeed in for introverts...anything corporate is all politics and who you know. That's changing. 

And being introverted doesn't have to mean being anti-social. I love doing pugs and meta events. I love helping players with HP's and bounties. I don't even mind joining discord for a pug if it's necessary...if that tag is not toxic. For example...I've seen a full-on man-child having a temper tantrum in WvW because people weren't actively engaging with him in discord...even though he posted in game-chat that he was tagging for an open squad. Listen, as a female player, some of us don't want to jump on voice chat...for very valid reasons. I will not put up with that toxic bullpoopy. But if I find a tag who is positive and helpful and doesn't demand people to participate, and only to listen, then that's awesome and I'm more than willing to comply. Sadly, you never know what kind of group you're going to jump into. These are all reasons why I do not raid, and I do not do dungeons, or strikes. I even avoid fractals unless I have to get something for a leggy collection. 

1-You confuse being a soloist with being an introvert, firstly no they are not the same, there are introverted social players that find MMOs to be a safe non exhausting place to socialize unlike real life, secondly 11k is above the calculated DPS needed for the event to be successful which is 7k, the door for you to play whatever build you want is wide open.

 2-Not having a guild in guild wars is more inconvenient than LFGing, in LFG strangers meet and there is no sense of "Us" that bind you together and so more fertile ground for frustration kicking etc.., while having a guild is literally the best most sure way to clear any content, just type in guild chat i want X and we social players are more than ready to drop everything and help, i once taughed -500 AP players everything they needed to clear the Manor dungeon, and i mean everything from the dungeon mechanics to the engie stealth combos, took me 4 hours, made sure after the clear they had guilds i think i talked to [Cat] to accept them, trust me we are more than happy to give soloists everything they need to enjoy their time the way they want.

3-Non of my social play EVER was on a voice call or discord, i like to keep all my game interactions well in-game... no need for discord, i cleared the DE without it, all strikes too, as well as my raids, the only place i think VC is too hard to avoid is WvW but even then you can train with other 5 people for a havoc squad and give short one letter signals for action u want.

4-Again your complaints are all born from the LFG, and the best way to avoid all that toxic headache is to go for well a GUILD.

 

[Terra.9506]

I have no problem with hard meta but only problem with ED meta is lack of reward in their sub quest to make up for it's 2 hour long meta that require perfect organize. Once player manage to complete it there's no reason to step in this map anymore.

[DragonMoon.6098]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:00 AM, volca.7234 said:

4-Again your complaints are all born from the LFG, and the best way to avoid all that toxic headache is to go for well a GUILD.

 

But herein lies the problem...not everybody wants to join well, a GUILD. 

[Caid.4932]

I find most of the arguments in favour of this meta frankly silly.

The randomness was a severe, huge issue. Its not a problem of difficulty if the boss spends 5 mins of the fight bouncing around the platform 500 times. Yes if you stack literally every single advantage in your favour you'll probably beat it despite terrible luck, it doesn't stop it being an issue.

The idea that it was necessary to train people for strikes or anything else was nonsense too as half the IBS strikes are brain dead simple and basically impossible to fail. Theres dozens of open world events that are more difficult than Shiverpeaks Pass. Kodans and Fraenir basically have one mechanic which you can ignore and succeed regardless. The bar for success for these is non existant despite the endless lfg looking for ultra specific set ups and kill proof and all sorts of silly gate keeping.

Its not even hard for most players on the map. Its definitely hard for the person commanding who needs to gather, organise and get 50 players to follow their lead, which is a monumental level of difficulty. The other 49 players on the map its the usual dont stand in fire mechanic they've seen a million times.

[Mickey.4207]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:03 AM, volca.7234 said:

The tl;dr: DE has no skill requirement, it has a social requirement.

 

1-The biggest boost to win rate in this meta is not alac or quickness uptime, its not never canceling autos in your rotation, its not having power infusions, its playing it with a guild instead of a pug, playing it with a guild will boost your win rate by at least 70%, i did it with my guild and succeed on the second try, with like 5 min remaining on soo-wan

2-The real description of players unable to clear this meta is not "casual" its "solo-player" sorry but joining a pug is not social play you are just pressing your LFG, and play alone together with other 30 people and then wonder why did you all fail when you had 0 synergy plan or though to your composition or builds, the only way you are going to clear this meta is by becoming actively social, start your own guild or join someone's and i grantee you a higher win rate.

3-There are multiple low skill easy builds and roles to fill in a squad, quickness harbinger and scrapper are both easy to up keep their boons, if you are a warrior you can play whatever you want just bring a banner and if you feeling spicy a mace for that defiance bar breaking, guardian? just slot in a single skill for group stability, the idea that DE is a skill check is bit silly since you can provide value with very little skill requirement

4-Even if you fail, since you did it with other actual human being not solo grind drones, you will have this magical human ability called "learning from experience", combine that with the fact that this is now your social group and you bonding over this meta this experience is shared between all of you multiplying its effectiveness, meaning that you will come next time to the fight with people who ALL did it at least once and discussed it from multiple PoVs and are ready for it even more.

5-The main reward of this meta is literally "the friends we made a long the way" and to reinforce that its other reward is a social-mount!, most solo-players won't ever share its second seat with someone, so why feeling that you need it? i myself have no reason to unlock skyscale because i simply think its bit unfun and i don't need it yet you don't see me making threads complaining about it not suiting my play preferences if you like your skyscale all the power to ya, outside your inner completionist if you are not a social player, you won't get much value out of the turtle tbh..

6-Its a game, have fun, its not work and stop treating it as such.

 

Now go and make your guild, join one, meet new people, have fun, party and get that water noodle smacked out of her high tower.

Seeing from the reactions its clear majority dont agree with you. If i wanted an end game treadmill kind of game i would have stuck with WOW and millions of its other clones. I started playing GW2 because it was different. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mickey.4207

[standardFoe.2983]

Your post is one the most arrogant and self-inflating things I have ever read and there have been many posts by elitists about this meta. So it's absolutely wonderful that you are talented and experienced and great at making friends, that is your world and it is completely unfair to the rest of the population against it. My world is one with physical limitations due to chronic illness that amplifies my social anxiety and makes it difficult to connect with others in-game and irl.

 

Personally I haven't even attempted this meta as there are no rewards from it's completion that hold interest to me. But it is disappointing to see all this toxicity aimed at casual players. Sure some people are lazy, but I am disabled and for me there is a skill wall that I am incapable of passing even though I've been playing since 2015.

 

A few years ago I tried to get into end game instanced content by joining some training guilds and it was so obvious that even with practice my play-style left me the weakest link so I reinvested into open world and left that to others more capable.  So as a person not interested in 10 person raids/strikes a 50 person raid in open world that requires two hours of organized prep couldn't be further from what I look forward to.

 

Soloing open world is the best for me as I take so long to get through content and take frequent breaks due to my disability, it's frustrating and I hate making people wait while I deal with being frail. HoT, while challenging is also rich in events, activities and loot. PoF  and the LW episodes were a bit of a struggle for me to get through on my own but again most maps have rolling events that reward decent loot and materials.

 

Gw2 has always been a favorite game of mine because it is possible to both play while engaging with a group and as a solo player.  I have invested a lot of money and time into completing as much content as I can and truly enjoy how the GW2 challenges me but also lets me avoid the parts of the game that are too difficult for me. If the future of GW2 is forcing the typed of instanced content that I completely suck at into the open world then congratulations, at least one less casual will be cluttering up your maps.

[DragonMoon.6098]

...

Edited March 21, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098
decided not to argue

[Caid.4932]

33 minutes ago, standardFoe.2983 said:

Your post is one the most arrogant and self-inflating things I have ever read and there have been many posts by elitists about this meta. So it's absolutely wonderful that you are talented and experienced and great at making friends, that is your world and it is completely unfair to the rest of the population against it. My world is one with physical limitations due to chronic illness that amplifies my social anxiety and makes it difficult to connect with others in-game and irl.

 

Personally I haven't even attempted this meta as there are no rewards from it's completion that hold interest to me. But it is disappointing to see all this toxicity aimed at casual players. Sure some people are lazy, but I am disabled and for me there is a skill wall that I am incapable of passing even though I've been playing since 2015.

 

A few years ago I tried to get into end game instanced content by joining some training guilds and it was so obvious that even with practice my play-style left me the weakest link so I reinvested into open world and left that to others more capable.  So as a person not interested in 10 person raids/strikes a 50 person raid in open world that requires two hours of organized prep couldn't be further from what I look forward to.

 

Soloing open world is the best for me as I take so long to get through content and take frequent breaks due to my disability, it's frustrating and I hate making people wait while I deal with being frail. HoT, while challenging is also rich in events, activities and loot. PoF  and the LW episodes were a bit of a struggle for me to get through on my own but again most maps have rolling events that reward decent loot and materials.

 

Gw2 has always been a favorite game of mine because it is possible to both play while engaging with a group and as a solo player.  I have invested a lot of money and time into completing as much content as I can and truly enjoy how the GW2 challenges me but also lets me avoid the parts of the game that are too difficult for me. If the future of GW2 is forcing the typed of instanced content that I completely suck at into the open world then congratulations, at least one less casual will be cluttering up your maps.

Dont let people put you off. Give ANET a couple of weeks to shave off some of the rough edges and you'll get through and contribute. It can be a fun fight when things work reasonably smoothly. Granted 2 hours is a big ask but its worth experiencing at least once.

[kharmin.7683]

18 hours ago, Caid.4932 said:

 Granted 2 hours is a big ask but its worth experiencing at least once.

Is it, really?  I am not so convinced.

[Mortime.1359]

30 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Is it, really?  I am not so convinced.

You mean you don't like running through circles for an hour while Aurene is yelling at you to charge her crystals? I'm getting some serious "champion the woons" flashback from another MMO whose name we don't mention here doing those events.

[BloodRavenz.6084]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:18 PM, EdreasEloyen.9410 said:

I've got a simple question to most of the "we've beaten the DE meta because we organized":

Why do you need to rely on tools (mainly voice-chat) OUTSIDE of GW2 to beat an event?

 

because it's an MMO? and nearly every other MMO out there has parts of the game that require voice chat?  Did you just come from Hello kitty online or something? you have to know this if you've been playing like any other MMO out there or did anything in those games other then solo story mode.

 

 

[EdreasEloyen.9410]

1 hour ago, BloodRavenz.6084 said:

 

because it's an MMO? and nearly every other MMO out there has parts of the game that require voice chat?  Did you just come from Hello kitty online or something? you have to know this if you've been playing like any other MMO out there or did anything in those games other then solo story mode.

 

 

 

I'm very impressed how factual you can argument by going "are you from hello kitty online". What does any game preference of a person or a game background per se say about the argument at all? Exactly THAT tone makes a discussion and community toxic, instead of talking about the fact starting to attack the person behind the post, and sorry by doing that now myself but it had to be said.

 

Again, my point is why should you REQUIRE an outside tool to be successful at an event of a game? If it is a requirement to use a voice channel then it should be integrated in the game, else the game (or in this case event) is not well made!

Of course, the social aspect of a game can be easily and in a fun way deepened with being together in a voice channel, cracking jokes and have a blast, but when it's a requirement to prevail in an event the voice chat should be in some way integrated into the game. Else it's optional and a fun social event on it's own, even when many people do use them in MMOs but it's no must do (btw, yes, I do have Discord and yes I do voice myself while raiding, but that's no requirement at all in raids to succeed).

And to counter any "then make suggestions instead of ranting", I've did, here: Suggestion to enhance Jade Sea meta