EoD and DE meta is the moment GW2 turned from a solo RPG to a true MMO, and it must be defended.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

The TL;DR is: DE has no skill requirement, it has a social requirement.

So DE has no skill requirement? That's absolutely wrong. If that was true, then the ONLY requirement for success would be simply having 50 people roleplaying their way to completing the meta. 

DE is probably the MOST SKILL INTENSIVE meta we have EVER seen. 

Things that have social requirements are achievements that simply reward you for just being in a group. I don't even know if we have anything like that in the game. If we do, it's a VERY small minority of achievements.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zok.4956]

10 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Stop villainizing  everybody who enjoys some challenge in the game, I'm not out to get you or take anything away from you.

I never wrote that. Please, don't play the victim card. I like challenging content, too and you are not taking anything away from me.  

But I still think that Anet made some serious mistakes with and around the DE meta and the reactions and frustrations in the community were predictable.  Anets first reactions "Its not a bug, its a feature. git gud." and how they announced the turtle before release (players can get it as easy or easier than roller beetle)  probably did not help either.

What I personally did not like about the fight itself the most is the heavy and overtuned RNG component that gives some kind of "fake-challenge" but in fact is only a lottery (for squads above a specific base skill level).  That destroyed my fun to be successful in a challenging fight after we succeeded for the first time.

[Xenesis.6389]

32 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I just find it silly that this community completely loses it marbles the second anything remotely challenging which requires some basic coordination is added, esp. if they can't walk through everything and collect all the rewards without effort week one - like it's a chore they have to complete asap rather than a game they enjoy playing and investing in. 

 

And now your very own signature...

 

Quote

 

“The challenge (in designing engaging content) is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output." ~Mike Zadorojny, former Game Director

 

 

Gee I wonder why the average player would complain about being forced into more challenging content. I feel like people forget who the target audience of the game was/still is, this isn't dark souls mmo. Hard content should exist, but it probably should only exist in instances, like it always has in many games, not pushed onto the general population of players in open world areas, that's a mess waiting to happen when all the different play styles clash. The same goes for wvw, where organization and class/combat meta's are constantly pushed.

People want to play/enjoy the game at "their" own level, not at "your" level, there should be different degrees of content in the appropriate areas, not just a one way street that everything needs to be harder.

[Ruisen.9471]

16 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

The TL;DR is: DE has no skill requirement, it has a social requirement.

 

1-The biggest boost to win rate in this meta is not alac or quickness uptime, its not never canceling autos in your rotation, its not having power infusions, its playing it with a guild instead of a pug, playing it with a guild will boost your win rate by at least 70%, i did it with my guild and succeed on the second try, with like 5 min remaining on soo-wan

2-The real description of players unable to clear this meta is not "casual" its "solo-player" sorry but joining a pug is not social play you are just pressing your LFG, and play alone together with other 30 people and then wonder why did you all fail when you had 0 synergy plan or though to your composition or builds, the only way you are going to clear this meta is by becoming actively social, start your own guild or join someone's and i grantee you a higher win rate.

3-There are multiple low skill easy builds and roles to fill in a squad, quickness harbinger and scrapper are both easy to up keep their boons, if you are a warrior you can play whatever you want just bring a banner and if you feeling spicy a mace for that defiance bar breaking, guardian? just slot in a single skill for group stability, the idea that DE is a skill check is bit silly since you can provide value with very little skill requirement

4-Even if you fail, since you did it with other actual human being not solo grind drones, you will have this magical human ability called "learning from experience", combine that with the fact that this is now your social group and you bonding over this meta this experience is shared between all of you multiplying its effectiveness, meaning that you will come next time to the fight with people who ALL did it at least once and discussed it from multiple PoVs and are ready for it even more.

5-The main reward of this meta is literally "the friends we made a long the way" and to reinforce that its other reward is a social-mount!, most solo-players won't ever share its second seat with someone, so why feeling that you need it? i myself have no reason to unlock skyscale because i simply think its bit unfun and i don't need it yet you don't see me making threads complaining about it not suiting my play preferences if you like your skyscale all the power to ya, outside your inner completionist if you are not a social player, you won't get much value out of the turtle tbh..

6-Its a game, have fun, its not work and stop treating it as such.

 

Now go and make your guild, join one, meet new people, have fun, party and get that water noodle smacked out of her high tower.

 

The biggest trouble with DE was that it was broken on release, AND required 2 hours of waiting simulator.   Might have also helped to gate an infusion behind DE like they normally do, instead of the mount.

First impressions are important, and DE made a pretty bad one.   

 

Someone did calculations on reddit to show that with a 50 person group, everyone only needed to do 2.5k DPS overall to kill the boss (or 5k DPS during the 50% of the time you could DPS the boss).   That in itself is not bad, but the bugs and RNG greatly reduced the DPS uptime.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Ruisen.9471

[Dralor.3701]

I have bad news for you but if you want this to be a “true mmo” or follow the design of games like WoW and FF you came to the wrong place.

Anet would also be foolish if they think their game design is going to compete with the end game structure of those two.

 

Hopefully they don’t shoot themselves in the foot..

[darkwarrior.6102]

I don't play GW2 because I want to be forced into organized groups. I like the ability to do most of the content on my own, and to do most of the rest with pugs (with whom I will gladly organize and work, including spec/role swapping as needed to ensure balanced groups). I enjoy challenges, but "group with 9 other people" isn't a challenge, it's an irritation. 

My work schedule is irregular. It changes at least every three months, and not just which days of the week I work. This quarter I'm working afternoon shifts. Next quarter I'll be working overnight. Literally any time is possible. No guild I've ever found supports runs regular groups at all times of day, on all days of the week. If "find a guild/group you can regularly play with" is a requirement for a game, it's a game I literally cannot enjoy. Any group I find will last for at most three months. 

 

Volca, if you are right about what they're doing in EoD, it's not a reason for me to get over myself and enjoy it. It's a reason for me to drop this game the same way I dropped WoW.... because to be blunt, if I wanted a game with solid endgame instanced content that requires guilds and organized groups, I'd still be playing that. 

 

Your rant here is obviously meant to be inspiring and motivational, but it reads (as so many motivational posters do) like just another ignorant extrovert who thinks their way is the only way and that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and incompetent... and I have long since grown tired of arrogant players telling me that I have to do things their way, I have to make friends and be social, I have to shut up and deal with it. I enjoy GW2 because of the ability to do so much of it on my own or with just my wife, not because I want to put up with people like you telling me I'm wrong for not being social enough. 

 

People like you and this post are what make games into work.

 

But then, maybe it's just time to move on from GW2. It's not like there aren't other good options for games out there. If people like you are the new norm, you're going to ruin this game and make sure the rest of us don't have fun anyways.... 

[Zok.4956]

3 minutes ago, Dralor.3701 said:

I have bad news for you but if you want this to be a “true mmo” or follow the design of games like WoW and FF you came to the wrong place.

I have not played it myself, but I have read that the FF14 producers have stated recently, that they will add more single-player-support, so I don't know if FF14 qualifies as a "true mmo". 😎

[Almaden.6782]

6 minutes ago, darkwarrior.6102 said:

I don't play GW2 because I want to be forced into organized groups. I like the ability to do most of the content on my own, and to do most of the rest with pugs (with whom I will gladly organize and work, including spec/role swapping as needed to ensure balanced groups). I enjoy challenges, but "group with 9 other people" isn't a challenge, it's an irritation...

Darkwarrior.6102, I hope you don't leave. It looks like the patch coming the 15th is proof that Anet gets it, and understands that many, if not most, of us don't want to be forced into group content, especially when people are catching abuse because they're the wrong spec, or have armor that didn't pass muster, or who aren't putting out the DPS someone thinks they should, or in this case stand in the wrong place at the wrong time and fail the event.

 

I've joined into group content when I felt like it, pick-up groups for big fights, and it went well. But it was voluntary, and we all felt that. It was not 'do it perfectly or we'll fail', there wasn't a mission-ending wrong place to stand, and there wasn't a troll saying something like "No turtle for you!" as the mission failed.

 

Fortunately the coming patch is good news for those of us who don't want to get forced into what this meta was being described as to get an item that was central to the advertising of EoD AND was said to be easier than the Roller Beetle to get.

 

So, hang in there DW. You're not alone.

[Gibson.4036]

5 minutes ago, Almaden.6782 said:

Darkwarrior.6102, I hope you don't leave. It looks like the patch coming the 15th is proof that Anet gets it, and understands that many, if not most, of us don't want to be forced into group content

[snip]

Fortunately the coming patch is good news for those of us who don't want to get forced into what this meta was being described as to get an item that was central to the advertising of EoD AND was said to be easier than the Roller Beetle to get.

 

There is still a strike mission required to unlock the turtle, for what that's worth.

[Krexen.9057]

15 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

And what do solo-players demand?

They demand that their idea of fun is the only way to have fun and DE and EoD should be regeared from anything that doesn't conform to their idea of what is fun

I'm a solo player. I like the meta the way it is, and while I do not currently have a turtle, I have come exceptionally close to acquiring one...through a PUG without discord, in the first week of the expansion release. We did the pres, got the group setup, explanations and green circles addressed, and then...at about 20%, it was constant tails and moving around. There was no way. That's not a skill set issue.

Tell us more about what solo players want.

[Almaden.6782]

4 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

There is still a strike mission required to unlock the turtle, for what that's worth.

What the heck, I haven't heard the kinds of things about that mission that I have about the Meta, if I need to I'll give the strike mission a shot.

 

That said, we haven't seen the patch yet, either, we don't know what its final form will be.

 

But I am purely glad to see that the meta is no longer a requirement.

[fixit.7189]

i have raided in other mmos pretty hardcore up until recently for over 15 years now and i can say this...i am done with it. all the drama, all the wasted time, all the lost friends/broken guilds along the way and it's all thanks to that raid or die mindset. raiding is stressful and causes me much anxiety so much so that i just quit doing it. and man am i happier about it. that said, gw2 used to be my go to place to escape all that baloney and now it's becoming the same thing as other mmos. this meta is a perfect example of that. i am not mad or upset, just disappointed. anyways, i expect to be called a baddy for saying but w/e.

[DragonMoon.6098]

People keep saying "you need good dps" but I haven't seen anywhere stating what exactly good dps is in the realm of things (and no, I'm not talking about what some min/maxing elitist snob thinks is good dps). My Condi Druid puts out about 8k on average in a longer fight, but I've seen it hit 11k...her primary damage is from bleeding, so her damage is definitely not front-loaded like a lot of people push for. But she still pumps out 8k on average for a boss according to ArcDPS (about 4k on trash mobs)...and she's got the survivability that I like. Some people don't like playing glass cannon builds. I have a mind-numbing GS/LB/ROAR BEAR ROAR!!! build...I hate it. She hates it. 

GW2 has always been about accessibility for all player types. I couldn't have said it better than darkwarrior.6102...this extroverted mentality of "everybody needs to just join guilds and deal" is so tiresome...because that attitude is sadly not limited to gaming. Thankfully, in some places, it's changing. I work in corporate finance, which for the longest time was hard to succeed in for introverts...anything corporate is all politics and who you know. That's changing. 

And being introverted doesn't have to mean being anti-social. I love doing pugs and meta events. I love helping players with HP's and bounties. I don't even mind joining discord for a pug if it's necessary...if that tag is not toxic. For example...I've seen a full-on man-child having a temper tantrum in WvW because people weren't actively engaging with him in discord...even though he posted in game-chat that he was tagging for an open squad. Listen, as a female player, some of us don't want to jump on voice chat...for very valid reasons. I will not put up with that toxic bullpoopy. But if I find a tag who is positive and helpful and doesn't demand people to participate, and only to listen, then that's awesome and I'm more than willing to comply. Sadly, you never know what kind of group you're going to jump into. These are all reasons why I do not raid, and I do not do dungeons, or strikes. I even avoid fractals unless I have to get something for a leggy collection. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[Freya.9075]

Define fun. Depending on who you ask it can be so many different things. Casual players will not define having to prepare one hour before meta and making the perfect squad fun. They want to go to the map, do the meta the way they want to do it. Casual squad or not. and have hardcore content in instances and not open world. And casual players are the main player base in this game. You can expect this meta to be nerfed like hot was and that’s a positive thing for gw2s future. 
 

social interactions you can still have in this game without locking it to a meta event. Forced social interactions is not a good thing 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

15 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

That's like telling people who enjoy rockclimbing, in the absence of mountains, to just throw on all their gear, get down in a small ditch beside a road and then crawl out - like that provides the same experience of actually utilizing all your tools, working together, relying on each other, etc., it just doesn't work. 

 

GW2 is tragically failing in the social/MMO component, because everything is so trivial that socialising and working together actually just slows you down and becomes an inconvenience. 

From trying to do collections together with other players where mobs drop certain items but die in < 3 seconds, meaning rather than working together on a common goal you just stand in each others way and thin out respawns before anyone can even tag mobs, to big meta events in which 99% of players play alone together because they simply don't require any communication and coordination. 

 

Even as a generally very anti-social player, I have to say it's pretty sad to see how incredibly anti-social GW2 has become. 

To actually step out of that and join an organised DE map and completely crush it, after fails on end with silent, random and completely unprepared players, was a spark of fun among years of completely silent drone like GW2 meta-event gameplay that I had completely withdrawn from in favour of instanced content like Raids and Fractals, where some people actually still seem to enjoy playing together, to communicate and help each other. 

 

While the event certainly has some problems, it's strange to see how a large part of the over the top complainers about it genuinely don't even seem to enjoy playing GW2, or at least MMO's, anymore, and just want to semi-afk and (at least effectively) solo walk through everything instantly first try and just get some random reward for the sake of getting it and then.. what? Idk. 

How do describe the people that say to casuals that they should do rock climbing  WITHOUT their mountain gear,  and wonder why they won't like " rock climbing" after 5 years? 

 

[Yggranya.5201]

3 hours ago, AviSwoo.8394 said:

"When someone kills a monster, not just that player’s party but everyone who was seriously involved in the fight gets 100% of the XP and loot for the kill."

Lol, i wouldn't call it "seriously involved" when a bunch of rangers are sitting around the edges of octovines with their auto-attack on from the fights start to the end. What a sick joke.

 

There's "challenging" and there's "it needs to be doable while most people around AREN'T EVEN PLAYING get carried on the backs of the few who are", and i'm here wondering how many of the failures here are because people need to actually play to win, and many just aren't while they take everyone down with them.

[Chaba.5410]

I'm not going to defend cheesing Soo-Won's scaling for the first 20% of her HP as if that's intended for the event.  That's not better social gameplay.  The event needs adjustments.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Asum.4960]

36 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

How do describe the people that say to casuals that they should do rock climbing  WITHOUT their mountain gear,  and wonder why they won't like " rock climbing" after 5 years? 

 

The Meta event seems to require quite a bit less than 10k DPS per player, meaning as long as the group is organised (namely providing Quickness, Might and Fury to each or at least the majority of players in the group), everybody else is fine auto attacking in rare gear. 

 

Every single high end player actually doing a Raid build and rotation, doing 30-40k DPS, frees up almost 6 players to do support or even nothing at all. 

 

So there is no "not having mountaineering gear", these are tools available to all players. Hardcore investment/performance goes well and beyond to what is required here.

Knowledge wise, be it Builds or Event guides, there are players working their butt off to provide those resources to players (and are getting slandered for trying to help people, because they suggest that the meta is possible). 

Organisation wise, there are commanders working tirelessly for hours on end to put together groups in functional ways, trying to give people the best shot at experiencing success in this content and  proving players a good time with it (and getting trolled for their efforts). 

 

As for responses to others, I'm not going to entertain a bad faith discussion and defend against point's I never made. 

I stand by the fact that I personally enjoy the event and that game mechanics, preparation and coming together and organising as community actually matters in it.

That I do think it was probably a bad idea to make it a map meta (which imo should have less time investment), that I think they should have given this event an "instanced" copy of the map that commanders could launch at will with people joining into that.

That they shouldn't have locked the mount behind the meta but rather have it have better general rewards, and that they should fix some of the issues arising from the RNG attack patterns (which they are actively doing). 

 

If anyone's take away from those opinions, somehow, is that I want to make all of GW2 into Dark Souls, then I can't even have a discussion here. That's beyond ridiculous. 

I'd love to have a discussion about the merits of both easier and more challenging content, both in the OW and instances, of concerns and wishes people have, and trying to find the best way to do it right (or least wrong for the largest amounts of players as possible) going forward for the game. 

 

But as long as every mention of challenging content in GW2 devolves into people starting to foam out of their mouths into an us vs them kitten slinging fest of strawmen, mischaracterisation and villainization, there is no point to any of this.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Cuks.8241]

40 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

Define fun. Depending on who you ask it can be so many different things. Casual players will not define having to prepare one hour before meta and making the perfect squad fun. They want to go to the map, do the meta the way they want to do it. Casual squad or not. and have hardcore content in instances and not open world. And casual players are the main player base in this game. You can expect this meta to be nerfed like hot was and that’s a positive thing for gw2s future. 
 

social interactions you can still have in this game without locking it to a meta event. Forced social interactions is not a good thing 

Dont mix casual players with the people that are mostly crying on the forums. These are not casual players. Getting through the whole expansion in one week (and maybe even have time to do 2 h meta several times) is not casual, its hardcore. 

Second casuals are playing high end content just fine. Having a guild schedule is completely fine for a casual. For example we have raids every sunday 9 pm. We are not young people. We have jobs, we have kids. Kids go to sleep, wife, husbans, older kids have some free time and we play gw2.

I've been hoping for a harder or at least more organised meta since TTT. Hopefuly we got it.

[Fleo.7324]

If they're gonna keep it as it is, it needs to be A LOT more rewarding, otherwise why wouldn't I just go do Octovine East instead?

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

55 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The Meta event seems to require quite a bit less than 10k DPS per player, meaning as long as hi the group is organised (namely providing Quickness, Might and Fury to each or at least the majority of players in the group), everybody else is fine auto attacking in rare gear. 

 

Every single high end player actually doing a Raid build and rotation, doing 30-40k DPS, frees up almost 6 players to do support or even nothing at all. 

 

So there is no "not having mountaineering gear", these are tools available to all players. Hardcore investment/performance goes well and beyond to what is required here.

Knowledge wise, be it Builds or Event guides, there are players working their butt off to provide those resources to players (and are getting slandered for trying to help people, because they suggest that the meta is possible). 

Organisation wise, there are commanders working tirelessly for hours on end to put together groups in functional ways, trying to give people the best shot at experiencing success in this content and  proving players a good time with it (and getting trolled for their efforts). 

 

As for responses to others, I'm not going to entertain a bad faith discussion and defend against point's I never made. 

I stand by the fact that I personally enjoy the event and that game mechanics, preparation and coming together and organising as community actually matters in it.

That I do think it was probably a bad idea to make it a map meta (which imo should have less time investment), that I think they should have given this event an "instanced" copy of the map that commanders could launch at will with people joining into that.

That they shouldn't have locked the mount behind the meta but rather have it have better general rewards, and that they should fix some of the issues arising from the RNG attack patterns (which they are actively doing). 

 

If anyone's take away from those opinions, somehow, is that I want to make all of GW2 into Dark Souls, then I can't even have a discussion here. That's beyond ridiculous. 

I'd love to have a discussion about the merits of both easier and more challenging content, both in the OW and instances, of concerns and wishes people have, and trying to find the best way to do it right (or least wrong for the largest amounts of players as possible) going forward for the game. 

 

But as long as every mention of challenging content in GW2 devolves into people starting to foam out of their mouths into an us vs them kitten slinging fest of strawmen, mischaracterisation and villainization, there is no point to any of this.

Villainization? 

Isn't true that people didn't want the Raids to offer an easy mode and devalue their exclusive raid  rewards ? 

 

And the olg ggs, respected that and they didn't offer an easy mode(just like they don't know how to comfront the people that have invested in Achentant gear for fractals?) 

 

Rather than trying to bring Raid mentality into the open world, we should separate it  and wait for the Strikes MC. 

The raid formula, with get gud +l2p 20k dp, didn't work

 

(then we can move in gw3 with all the maps covered in the ground and explore it like "Ever quest Next"  by digging  and hide from the unspicable horror that lure in the surface in the night:p) 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Asum.4960]

12 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Villainization? 

Isn't true that people didn't want the Raids to offer an easy mode and devalue their exclusive raid  rewards ? 

Case and point. If you treat a group as monolith and cherrypick out every stance of individuals you don't like to confirm that preconceived notion about the group as a whole, while ignoring any contradiction (like plenty raiders, high profile community leaders etc. championing easy mode for Raids, more tutorialization in the game, etc.), you are doing exactly that, villainizing a part of the community. 

 

That's poison for the game and it's community as a whole.

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Isn't true that people didn't want the Raids to offer an easy mode

Yes, it is false, since people generally weren't against easy mode as a way to help people learn the mechanics needed to complete the content for "end-goal" rewards. We've been through it in another thread/s, probably multiple times. It's time to stop repeating these lies.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

19 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Case and point. If you treat a group as monolith and cherrypick out every stance of individuals you don't like to confirm that preconceived notion about the group as a whole, while ignoring any contradiction (like plenty raiders, high profile community leaders etc. championing easy mode for Raids, more tutorialization in the game, etc.), you are doing exactly that, villainizing a part of the community. 

 

That's poison for the game and it's community as a whole.

Common, what was "some1" first reaction when people failed in the meta event? 

Didn't "he" make a post saying something across the line :"if they stop auto attacking they might succeed".

 

Me and "him" are old dinasaurs and we did Raids 25 ago and we accepted it as "the way of life" and we cannot evolve past that

Edited March 10, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Dralor.3701]

tldr: This situation is really bad for the game. “Casual” players make or break MMOs. Casual 9-5 worker can drop expendable income on a whim and has a much bigger impact on the health of the studio.
 

I’m guessing most people who are still playing MMOs didn’t get to experience EQ back in the day.

 

Sleeping on the floor next to the computer, next to the land line, waiting for the call that the monk dragged your corpse back to the safe spot in the planes. Yes, it was an experience. But as every game since has shown that PVE design was not sustainable.

 

Open world content needs to be a lot more accessible to everyone (if we all don’t want the game to die a horrible death) and it definitely shouldn’t lock a mount used to advertise the expansion.

 

This is not about who is “good” or who is a casual or whatever, it’s just plain bad for the health of the game. I personally couldn’t care less about the event or reward as I mostly WvW  however this type of situation will shrink the player base. A smaller player base hurts all of us regardless of where we are losing people.

 

Stopping here this got long see tldr.