Why PVE necros can't have nice things

[Wintermute.5408]

This thread brought to you by pure 🧂🧂🧂

Necro has been historically garbage in endgame PVE, for almost entirety of the game's life time.

In vanilla, it was absolutely worthless. No buffs, no boons, no combo fields, no damage. If you mained necro in vanilla, you were automatically excluded from endgame content of the time, and got kicked from dungeon runs literally on sight. I swear, out of 3 dungeon runs total I managed to pull off back in the day, all 3 were because people assumed I was a girl. Yay human female meta.

In HoT, it was garbage. The fact that Reaper was seen as massive improvement by necro community, while still remaining absolutely worthless by any PVE metric, should tell you enough. Since HoT release, over the course of literal years, Reaper managed to heroically claw its way from "absolute trash" to "one of the worst power specs in the game". What a crowning achievement of class balance. Now it got nerfed, because of course it did.

In PoF, it was broken. Scourge on release proudly claimed the title of "the most bugged piece of kitten ever". Over the course of a few weeks post release it established itself as best condi spec in the game, best power spec in the game (yes, power Scourge was a thing), then got nerfed into the ground, and THEN got bugfixed into absolute non-viability. The only thing it had of value by the end of that ride was Epidemic, which, naturally, got nerfed in the process. It took several years for torment change to arrive, and give condi Scourge competitive damage numbers by what I can only assume to be an oversight on anets side. Scourge became viable, for less than a year. Obviously, it had to get nerfed. Together with epidemic, again, because kitten you for playing necro.

There was also a "support" Scourge. It was deemed not worthy of having ANY useful boon support capacity, for reasons really obvious to anybody maining that cursed class. It was allowed though to have a little bit of uniqueness, in having absolute trash healing capacity, yet providing barriers alongside. Which was a novel concept in the day, and had its place in endgame PVE for damage prevention. Obviously it had to be nerfed on EOD release, new barrier numbers with healing gear barely able to reach old barrier numbers without. However, what is really great about class balance in EOD, is appearance of Mechanist, who is able to properly heal, provide HIGHER barrier numbers than heal scourge, while giving an array of boons and alac. With an absolutely braindead mech doing most of the job. Hurray.

And now we get Harbinger, trading away all of the necro survivability (which got nerfed anyway for the other necros). Being literally the worst quickness option you can take in the slot, with neither utility nor damage other quickness classes provide. However, by what I can only assume to be a bug, DPS Harbinger is able to deal high DPS (not the highest though). I humbly ask anet to investigate that unfortunate bug, and bring Harbinger damage numbers in line with something like 20k DPS, to keep the necro theme of being a class for masochists going.

TLDR: I really don't know why I even bother for so long -_-

Edited March 15, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[Dadnir.5038]

Quote

Why pve necros can't have nice things?

Short answer: Boon conversion/corruption.

Long answer: By design the necromancer was supposed to be a debuffer that "manipulate conditions". The gameplay idea was that he should have gathered conditions onto himself to send them back to it's targets/spread them, applied constantly debilitating conditions and corrupt the advantage of it's foes. In practice:

- Vanilla game: Condition were easily caped, foes had no boons, the lone bosses were dead in a matter of seconds and you were either quickly overwhelm by conditions or there were none at all. The gameplay the necromancer was designed to use was utterly useless.

- HoT: Too much competition over removing boons, no condition to transfer due to perma party cleanse, mindset was heavily in favor of strike damage due to vanilla game era. Here the devs started to slowly tweak the design of the necromancer, making it about the shroud in order to make reaper a viable strike damage dps (unfortunately the core wasn't really effective at strike damage so there was a lot of work to do, which took time).

- PoF: Still to much competiton over removing boons, condition damage was begining to be popular (it took around a year for it to flourish), condition output from environment still suck but scourge was offering a new adapted gameplay while reaper's strike damage tuning (and the revolution of the encromancer's design) was nearing completion. All in all the necromancer was entering it's golden era. 

- EoD: After some nerfs to take him down a notch from it's golden era peak, the necromancer stay in a relatively good spot but the ambitious design of the harbinger go in a very different direction compared to the core necromancer. A whole boon sharing role given to an elite spec from a "boonless" profession signify that the devs have to overload the spec which make it both bloated and somehow "lacking" in effectiveness. Which put us in the "harbinger fine tuning" era within the ambitious context of having professions trade something in order to be effective as support.

[anbujackson.9564]

Well thats a lot of salt (like you said yourself) and you apparently dont see how bad other classes are in PvE (like ele and war):

- Reaper: Easy to play, ok damage, good utility, one of the best open world specs since you provide yourself with important boons and you are always critting in shroud. The nerf to shroud in PvE made no sense though.

- Scourge: Its damage is unchanged after EoD release, meaning its still high, still easy and still ranged AND, contrary to what some people think, its cleave is still strong. Nerfing barrier was stupid because scourge is hybrid by design. Epidemic is unhealthy for the game even though IMO the five stacks you transfer should be at full length now though. Heal scourge was and still is just a stupid build that is also too unhealthy for how it can carry through content.

- Harbringer: Good quickness build, good dps build. I dont even really know what people want anymore. Doing 30k+ damage is apparently not good enough while providing THE BEST BOON in the game. 

 

But this is a good oppurtunity to ask someone who is not happy with the state of necro. Tell me then:

- How should reaper look like in your eyes? How much damage would be "fair"? What else would you add? 

- How much damage should scourge do? More? Should its barrier be reverted additionally? How many other boons it should do (there is quite some might with BiP and torch 5)?

Serious epidemic buffs shouldnt be considered since its too gamebreaking. There is enough evidence for that.

[Sarrs.4831]

So outside of the sulking what I'm seeing is "nerf mechanist"?

Yeah mechanists are probably a bit too good for what they do.

[Nimon.7840]

Is this some kind of comedy thread?

 

Necro being bad in PvE right now - anyone who claims that clearly didn't play much or didn't have proper information.

Yes in some aspects it's not as good as firebrand, but it can do different things.

 

Also I absolutely disagree with the state of warrior and ele in PvE with @anbujackson.9564

 

Barrier nerf for scourge was long overdue. And I really like the approach of halfing barriers, but increasing their healing power scaling.

But I think, that for what scourge can do, scourge still does too much damage. But that's nothing that can't be changed by purely reworking some of scourges traits like they did with abrasive grit. For example demonic lore could remove the barrier off of all f-skills and add a stack of bleeding instead for example.

 

was epi nerf needed? - yes absolutely, especially with the new strikes in mind.

is it still sad it got nerfed? - yes, because it has basically the only skill in the game, that you didn't spam mindlessly and got better, the more you could communicate with your group members.

 

 

[ArjukKagrim.6049]

I have to completely disagree on most of those points for pve:
-) Scourge is still together with fb the most reliable damage source in the game with much (though not as broken as before the patch) survivability.

-) Harbinger ist together with qfb the best quickness-source in the game. 33k+quickness ranged ist already strong. Now take into account that harbinger also provides over  massive stacks of vulnerability it is depending on group composition sometimes even a better pick than qfb.

[MagicalSilence.1837]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

was epi nerf needed? - yes absolutely, especially with the new strikes in mind.

Indeed it was truly OP as hell with few necs and even one. in content like wing 1 raid Sab to get extra damage off champ, new strikes in mind  it would been just too strong xD but the 5 condi on 50% dura is not rly good fix to it imo  at least could have given 100% duration to that 5 condis or completely remade the skill into something new.

[Shroud.2307]

I don't have anything constructive to add since I very seldom do any PvE beyond open world.

But I will say that it was a hoot and a holler trying to find Dungeon groups as a Necro pre-HoT. I remember like 7ish years ago when I used to do Dungeons a lot, I'd literally get insta-kicked from groups over and over just for being a Necro because it was so unwanted for that content. 

[Poelala.2830]

Didn’t read but hasn’t necro been a top two choice in all end game content for years? That’s a good thing I think 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

was epi nerf needed?

Epi need a full rework of fonctionality since release, not a nerf. (obviously a rework of fonctionality would be an effective nerf but whatever)

 

[Zenith.7301]

4 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Didn’t read but hasn’t necro been a top two choice in all end game content for years? That’s a good thing I think 

 

 

Only for PoF, on a single elite spec. Reaper has been worthless since its inception as was core necro in PvE.

 

They  then nerf the mitigation of shroud but don't buff reaper's offensive abilities to compensate in PvE for the now reduced reaper shroud uptime.

 

And now specter has a more powerful shroud with reliable shadow force generation that generates regardless of missing a skill or hitting a target, generates more quickly, and provides a metric ton of survivability with better damage output than any necro shroud.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Zenith.7301

[zealex.9410]

"Necro has been hystorically garbage in pve" 

 

Necro has been good or extremely strong for longer than its been bad, all it take is to not run minionmancer.

[Poelala.2830]

7 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Only for PoF, on a single elite spec. Reaper has been worthless since its inception as was core necro in PvE.

 

They  then nerf the mitigation of shroud but don't buff reaper's offensive abilities to compensate in PvE for the now reduced reaper shroud uptime.

 

And now specter has a more powerful shroud with reliable shadow force generation that generates regardless of missing a skill or hitting a target, generates more quickly, and provides a metric ton of survivability with better damage output than any necro shroud.

Right PoF launched almost 5 years ago so my original statement was correct.

[Nephalem.8921]

18 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Is this some kind of comedy thread?

 

Necro being bad in PvE right now - anyone who claims that clearly didn't play much or didn't have proper information.

Yes in some aspects it's not as good as firebrand, but it can do different things.

 

Also I absolutely disagree with the state of warrior and ele in PvE with @anbujackson.9564

Enlighten me. I dont see eles at all in fractals. Extremely rare in raids and only played in open world by clueless people who have no idea what they are doing. Maybe its just so strong and powerful that playing ele makes the game just too easy?

Scourge and harbinger are still everywhere. scourge is still a completely braindead build that rewards faceroll gameplay. hscourge is still the most broken build in the game. its so op that it shouldnt work in strike cms at all.

[Squigglez.1236]

I'd agree that necro was crap on release. I still got into groups for dungeons and later got to max fractals on necro/reaper. I get the feeling that because it was once bad some people refuse to see it's pretty good now. Reaper is probably one of the easiest open world builds to get into, and while it's true that, if played perfectly, the dps is only like 33k I find it to be pretty consistent because of how self reliant it is, in some pug groups where nobody plays perfectly it makes very little difference. Scourge had a solid spot in raids and fractals too in my experience, and harbinger gets pretty good damage for a quickness class. Epi was pretty game breaking, having one person in your party bring a single utility and clearing every add that dared to breath in range of the boss trivialized too many fights and for the new strikes would've voided mechanics. Even in the dragons end meta an unnerfed epi would've let necros purge the platform during the boss fight.

[Shroud.2307]

6 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

"Necro has been hystorically garbage in pve" 

 

Necro has been good or extremely strong for longer than its been bad, all it take is to not run minionmancer.

One spec within the entirety of a class keeping it afloat is never a good thing, because it means one wrong change to that spec will have the entire class made irrelevant.

Guardian is the shining example of versatility and ease of use, because every spec is good or meta in all areas of the game. Necro is in the same boat as most others where it has 1 spec per game mode; Reaper open world, core Necro PvP, Harbinger (???), Scourge instanced PvE.

This is not me saying "Necro is bad" though. What I'm saying is that the class is no more or less versatile than most others (some exceptions apply), and Scourge is the main point of contention for many people - not Necro as a class.

[Galmac.4680]

What I see is mostly a "we must nerf the necro, because if a group of necros doing this and that". Epi was nerfed because a group of necros could use that. Barrier was nerfed because a group of necros could ... Necros are always seen in groups. Other classes are seen as single individuum.

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Necro has been good or extremely strong for longer than its been bad, all it take is to not run minionmancer.

You're either an avid WvW player or new to the game if you really mean that.

PvE wise, the necromancer was basically garbage tier until PoF and scourge (which isn't even half of the game's life). And you have to keep in mind that the necromancer wasn't popular in the gamemode (outside OW) from the very beginning (At pof release, It had at most niche uses that were even looked down upon).

While I'll give you that the necromancer has been good and even strong for most of the game's life in WvW (It's his niche environment. As long as it's not roaming, everything in WvW favor the necromancer's design).

[Tukaram.8256]

All I play is open world PvE and my main has been a necro/minion master from the beginning - as soon as I realized elementalist was garbage in GW2 (my main in GW).  I send out my minions, and use my staff to lay marks everywhere.  I breeze through almost everything in open world PVE. I do not know, or care, how it works in PvP, WvW, strikes, raids etc, but in open world PvM I solo with my core necro all the time. 😎

[Asum.4960]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:30 AM, ArjukKagrim.6049 said:

Harbinger ist together with qfb the best quickness-source in the game. 33k+quickness ranged ist already strong. Now take into account that harbinger also provides over  massive stacks of vulnerability it is depending on group composition sometimes even a better pick than qfb.

Vulnerability is rarely more valuable (due to being plentiful) than either inbuilt or choices of: Condi Cleanses (Purging Flames, 9 conditions cleansed every 18 seconds; Cleansing Flame, 10 conditions cleansed every 12 seconds - as part of just the DPS rotation + Radiant Recovery, 3 conditions cleansed; and Eternal Oasis, 5 Conditions converted into boons, +33% incoming healing mod, in Tome), Stability (Unflinching Charge and Unbroken lines in Tome + optional Stand your Ground, 24s CD, Hollowed Ground, 29s CD), Protection, Resolution, Aegis (Advance + Unbroken Lines in Tome), Reflects (Valiant Bulwark in Tome + optional Wall of Reflection, 16s CD) as well as massive CC (Sanctuary, also granting healing and projectile mitigation) and built in pulls with Axe 3 and Justice 3 (and that's far from a comprehensive list still, with Fractal skips, resistance, immob, off healing and many more situational tools). 

 

Harbinger works for content that doesn't really test your group much, but to put them even remotely on the same level is either misinformed or dishonest. It can't adapt to a groups needs between different encounters and carry nearly as much.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Nimon.7840]

7 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Enlighten me. I dont see eles at all in fractals. Extremely rare in raids and only played in open world by clueless people who have no idea what they are doing. Maybe its just so strong and powerful that playing ele makes the game just too easy?

Scourge and harbinger are still everywhere. scourge is still a completely braindead build that rewards faceroll gameplay. hscourge is still the most broken build in the game. its so op that it shouldnt work in strike cms at all.

 

I don't want to spoiler to much but:

Tempest is still able to give 10man might and fury even though all targets have been reduced to 5.

Overflow stacking - op.

 

And damage wise ele is definetly playable in endgame content.

Yes you have to enjoy ele and yo have to work slightly more for that damage than other professions - but it's not bad at all.

 

And I don't even want to start with warrior.

 

I'd say: wait a bit more before the sparkling glitter dust from end of dragons settles.

 

[zealex.9410]

16 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

One spec within the entirety of a class keeping it afloat is never a good thing, because it means one wrong change to that spec will have the entire class made irrelevant.

Guardian is the shining example of versatility and ease of use, because every spec is good or meta in all areas of the game. Necro is in the same boat as most others where it has 1 spec per game mode; Reaper open world, core Necro PvP, Harbinger (???), Scourge instanced PvE.

This is not me saying "Necro is bad" though. What I'm saying is that the class is no more or less versatile than most others (some exceptions apply), and Scourge is the main point of contention for many people - not Necro as a class.

Both reaper and scourge have been are are good enough or even great and now hb is also a really strong addition, all three soecs can join groups and perform well.

[Legend of Rogue.5394]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:30 AM, Wintermute.5408 said:

This thread brought to you by pure 🧂🧂🧂

Necro has been historically garbage in endgame PVE, for almost entirety of the game's life time.

In vanilla, it was absolutely worthless. No buffs, no boons, no combo fields, no damage. If you mained necro in vanilla, you were automatically excluded from endgame content of the time, and got kicked from dungeon runs literally on sight. I swear, out of 3 dungeon runs total I managed to pull off back in the day, all 3 were because people assumed I was a girl. Yay human female meta.

In HoT, it was garbage. The fact that Reaper was seen as massive improvement by necro community, while still remaining absolutely worthless by any PVE metric, should tell you enough. Since HoT release, over the course of literal years, Reaper managed to heroically claw its way from "absolute trash" to "one of the worst power specs in the game". What a crowning achievement of class balance. Now it got nerfed, because of course it did.

In PoF, it was broken. Scourge on release proudly claimed the title of "the most bugged piece of kitten ever". Over the course of a few weeks post release it established itself as best condi spec in the game, best power spec in the game (yes, power Scourge was a thing), then got nerfed into the ground, and THEN got bugfixed into absolute non-viability. The only thing it had of value by the end of that ride was Epidemic, which, naturally, got nerfed in the process. It took several years for torment change to arrive, and give condi Scourge competitive damage numbers by what I can only assume to be an oversight on anets side. Scourge became viable, for less than a year. Obviously, it had to get nerfed. Together with epidemic, again, because kitten you for playing necro.

There was also a "support" Scourge. It was deemed not worthy of having ANY useful boon support capacity, for reasons really obvious to anybody maining that cursed class. It was allowed though to have a little bit of uniqueness, in having absolute trash healing capacity, yet providing barriers alongside. Which was a novel concept in the day, and had its place in endgame PVE for damage prevention. Obviously it had to be nerfed on EOD release, new barrier numbers with healing gear barely able to reach old barrier numbers without. However, what is really great about class balance in EOD, is appearance of Mechanist, who is able to properly heal, provide HIGHER barrier numbers than heal scourge, while giving an array of boons and alac. With an absolutely braindead mech doing most of the job. Hurray.

And now we get Harbinger, trading away all of the necro survivability (which got nerfed anyway for the other necros). Being literally the worst quickness option you can take in the slot, with neither utility nor damage other quickness classes provide. However, by what I can only assume to be a bug, DPS Harbinger is able to deal high DPS (not the highest though). I humbly ask anet to investigate that unfortunate bug, and bring Harbinger damage numbers in line with something like 20k DPS, to keep the necro theme of being a class for masochists going.

TLDR: I really don't know why I even bother for so long -_-

Who cares about PVE? 

[kharmin.7683]

14 minutes ago, Legend of Rogue.5394 said:

Who cares about PVE? 

Hopefully Anet does, since that seems to be a significant majority of the player base.

[Legend of Rogue.5394]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Hopefully Anet does, since that seems to be a significant majority of the player base.

Pve you can literally play anything you want. You might have to care and try a bit harder in raids and strikes but for the most part any content in PVE outside of that play what ever you want to your hearts content. Reaper was OP in HOT. Farmed and Solo'd everything in it's path. Add in minions you can kite for days since the AI minions are so stupid.